Meaning this in general when it comes to things like this. To make things even simpler, one can't conclude that something in particular explains something just because a verse or two sounds like it can fit what one proposes explains it. An example. Ezekiel 38:21 and how that appears it could maybe fit with what is written in the book of Esther. Therefore, the book of Esther proves Ezekiel 38-39 has already been fulfilled. That's not good hermeneutics because what about other verses in Ezekiel 38-39 that don't even remotely fit anything recorded in Esther?
Paul taught that Revelation 20:4 was a current reality
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Meaning this in general when it comes to things like this. To make things even simpler, one can't conclude that something in particular explains something just because a verse or two sounds like it can fit what one proposes explains it. An example. Ezekiel 38:21 and how that appears it could maybe fit with what is written in the book of Esther. Therefore, the book of Esther proves Ezekiel 38-39 has already been fulfilled. That's not good hermeneutics because what about other verses in Ezekiel 38-39 that don't even remotely fit anything recorded in Esther?
What I need to understand about your view, which I'm failing to understand is, are you applying the millennium before or after Christ's 2nd coming? If before, that can fit both Amil and Postmil. If after, that can only fit Premil. If you are neither Amil nor Postmil, this makes you Premil and sounds like you are SDA except that you already said you are not. Your view I find interesting yet puzzles me at the same time since I can't figure out if you are applying the millennium before or after the 2nd coming. And if after, it sure sounds like you are SDA in that case, except you already said you are not.
Dear Marty Fox,
You are right that Rev 20:4 is spiritual and it applies to every Elect believer at the time they are converted ("they came to life").
Here is what the thousand years represents as taught by the marriage analogy used in Revelation chapter 19 & 20:
The book of Revelation teaches the spiritual events which the Elect experience as they travel the pathway to salvation. Revelation chapter 19 teaches the climax of these events when the believer is converted. In verses 7-9, it presents the Marriage of the Lamb and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
The Marriage of the Lamb is the salvation event which occurs when Christ "comes again" for His Bride (the Elect). The Elect are espoused to Christ when Christ first comes to them. It is at this time that Christ plants the seed of the Holy Spirit within them (the Early Rain of the Spirit). Christ then goes away with the promise to return for the marriage. Just before Christ appears the second time, Christ will pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit upon the believer. Christ will then appear to His bride and the marriage of the Lamb will take place. The marriage event is what the Apostles experienced on the Day of Pentecost and what Paul experienced after being in Damascus of three days.
The Marriage Supper immediately follows the wedding because, in conjunction with the Latter Rain of the Spirit, the bride's spiritual blindness will be healed (Mark 8:21-25). Now with "eyes that can see", the bride will be fed the truth of God by Christ. When the bride has received enough nourishment, the bride will "see" the Abomination of Desolation (Mat 24:15) which had previously occurred within themselves. After this occurs, judgment (the Day of the Lord) will immediately follow. This judgment is the Thousand Years reign and is presented in verses 11-21 of chapter 19. Notice during this judgment that the bride is not being judged. This is true because the bride is a child of God who has never sinned. She will ride with Christ and judge the "chaff" (carnality, child of the devil) which remains within themselves. The bride will not experience any wrath during this time of judgment.
Peter confirms the meaning of the Thousand Years by saying this:
2Pet 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Peter says that the Thousand Years is "like" one day. The day that Peter is referencing is the Day of the Lord. Then, in the rest of chapter 3, Peter goes on to teach about certain spiritual events which occur during the Day of the Lord.
So what makes the Thousand Years different from the Day of the Lord? It is different because the Thousand Years only applies to the Elect who will reign with Christ during the Day of the Lord.
The Day of the Lord is Christ's judgment which He uses to destroy carnal mankind who is "condemned already" (John 3:18). Since the Elect are "born again" prior to that judgment commencing upon them, they will reign with Christ over their own judgment. In the final age, the Day of the Lord will come upon the rest of mankind and the Elect will reign a second time with Christ over that judgment.
Ecc 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place (Lake of Fire)?
During both Thousand Years, the Elect will reign with Christ and will judge carnal mankind in the Lake of Fire until they have perished. Since the "lost" of the final age are not "born again" as a child of God prior to their judgment commencing, they will experience God's wrath while they are being judged. But before the "lost" of the final age perish from that judgment, Christ will have mercy upon them and give them the same faith that He earlier gave to the Elect.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Christ's mercy will come to the "lost" in the form of the Early Rain of the Spirit. With the Early Rain, the lost person will receive a "measure of faith". With this faith, the pathway will be made straight for Christ to come to them and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit and convert them into children of God. They will then be gathered to heaven as the Elect were in this present age (spiritually speaking). Justice will be served by the destruction of the child of the devil who will remain in the Lake of Fire.
Joe
David, it seems I have to lay out the timeline that I believe will unfold during the seventh age for you. This is an initial first pass at addressing your questions.
Present day we are still in the sixth age which I believe will end around 20 years from now.
At this present time Satan is empowering his good and faithful servants with money to oppose the establishment of God’s everlasting Kingdom during the seventh age while he is imprisoned in the Bottomless pit for 1,000 years. Then with the ending of the sixth age these things will happen.
1. The visitation of the iniquities of the fathers’ children and the children’s children will end.
2. The 2,300 years of the Little Horn receiving armies to trample God’s sanctuary and God’s earthly hosts will be completed.
3. Daniel 7:11-12 and Isaiah 24:21-22/Armageddon will occur where the heavenly hosts, i.e., the four beats, the little horn and Satan and the kings of the earth will be judged for their respective trampling of God’s sanctuary and His earthly hosts and they will be gathered together and imprisoned for many days, i.e., for 1,000 years.
4. Immediately after the judgement of the heavenly hosts and the kings of the earth on the earth, the Son of man is presented before God and he is given dominion over all of the peoples of the earth and the everlasting Kingdom which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 7:13-14.
5. It is around this time that the first resurrection will occur when the saints who had been beheaded for their faith in God and had not taken the mark of the beast will become priests with Christ and rule with Him for 1,000 years. My understanding of this priestly rule of Christs and the resurrected saints will be in heaven during the 1,000 years.
6. With the completion of the Daniel 8:13-14 prophecy, then all of Israel will be saved. Romans 11:25b-26.
7. God will begin gathering the remanent of Israel to Himself and will plant them in his fertile field and will teach them about the foundational principles found encoded in rock that comes down out of heaven that then grows to become the largest mountain in all of the earth.
8. It is at this time that Israel becomes the bride of Christ
9. During this 1,000-year period of Satan being imprisoned in the bottomless pit, his good and faithful servants will be opposing the establishment of God’s everlasting Kingdom here on the earth.
10. When Satan goes away, some of His servants send a delegate after Satan to proclaim that they no longer want Satan to be king over them.
11. God renews once more the Kingdom of priests, a Holy Nation and His Possession among the nations Covenant that Israel had rebelled against while Moses was up on the mountain with God for 40 days.
12. The great harvest of peoples’ souls comes into play from this time onwards until the end of the 1,000 years that the judged heavenly hosts and the king of the earth are released from the bottomless pit.
13. When the heavenly host comes down out of heaven to unlock the Bottomless pit to release those imprisoned in it, there is a marked change to what is going to happen over the next 24 years or so.
14. Initially the Judged Kings of the earth and their armies are released for 5 months.to
Rev 9:3-6: - 3 And out of the smoke, locusts descended on the earth, and they were given power like that of the scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 The locusts were not given power to kill them, but only to torment them for five months, and their torment was like the stinging of a scorpion. 6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, but death will escape them.
15. Then the four angels are release who were bound at the great river Euphrates
Rev 9:13-18: - 13 Then the sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar before God 14 saying to the sixth angel with the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.”
15 So the four angels who had been prepared for this hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 And the number of mounted troops was two hundred million; I heard their number.
17 Now the horses and riders in my vision looked like this: The riders had breastplates the colors of fire, sapphire, and sulfur. The heads of the horses were like the heads of lions, and out of their mouths proceeded fire, smoke, and sulfur. 18 A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke, and sulfur that proceeded from their mouths.
16. When Satan is released from the Bottomless Pit he immediately goes after the Israelites but God intervenes and the dragon becomes enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus
To be continued when I have time
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
zōopoiéō:
Used in reference to God’s Spirit quickening, i.e making alive, giving or imparting (eternal) life. Also used in reference to the quickening of the mortal body.
anástasis, égersis; anístēmi; egeírō
A standing up again, i.e. (literally) a resurrection from death.
Without exception, whenever the words anástasis, égersis; anístēmi; egeírō are used in the New Testament, they are talking about, and referring to, the resurrection of the body (the body that died, which is the seed of the spiritual, but tangible, body that we have the assurance of, will be raised.
syzōopoiéō:
Used in reference to being quickened of the Spirit, i.e made alive again together with Christ.
synegeírō:
Refers to being bodily raised up together with Christ's bodily resurrection.
The word zōopoiéō is used in:-
|| John 5:21; John 6:63; Romans 4:17; Romans 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15 verses 22, 36 & 45; II Corinthians 3:6; Galatians 3:21; I Timothy 6:13; I Peter 3:18. ||
We are in bodies that have not yet been resurrected from death. Our bodies will die. Those who believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Logos of God, by whom and through whom all things were created and by whom all things consist, who became a man and died for our sins and rose again from the dead, are spiritually in Christ, who has been resurrected from the dead.
John 17:23: "I in them, and You in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them as You have loved Me."
Likewise, those who have been born of the Spirit of God, received eternal life from God when they were born of His Spirit.
"But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being dead (the body being dead) in sins,
(1) He has syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved);
(2) and has raised us up together (synegeírō - the word is referring to the resurrection of the body, not of the human spirit), and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).
Being born of the Spirit of God does not equate to the "resurrection" of the human spirit.
In Ephesians 2:4-6 Paul is telling us that we are quickened with Christ by His Spirit because of His quickening by the same Spirit (Christ is the Son of man and the last Adam), and so we are also bodily raised with Him. Colossians 2:12 and 3:1 are saying exactly the same thing.
Paul is telling us that positionally (our current position is that) we are already bodily raised with Christ who is the last Adam, the Son of man, through His bodily resurrection from the dead. This is why we are sure that we will be raised from the dead bodily, also. This is also why Paul adds that we are seated with Him ("made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus").
We are seated with Him in heavenly places because we have been bodily raised with Him (synegeírō), because we have been quickened by the Spirit of God with Him (syzōopoiéō), because we have been born of His Spirit:
"If Christ's Spirit is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness. Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō: make your mortal bodies alive] through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:10-11).
egeírō and synegeírō are referring to the resurrection of the body, and there is not one place in the entire New Testament where the words are NOT referring to the resurrection of the body.
Revelation 20:4-6 states:
1. Why those whom John saw alive in their bodies (zao) in Rev.20:4 had been beheaded (they were beheaded for their refusal to worship the beast); and
2. the fact that John saw them alive in their bodies (zao); and
3. uses the word anastasis in verses 5-6, which in the New Testament is always talking about the resurrection of the body.
In the long list of verses where it's found, the word záō (alive | living) is always referring either to the living God, or to humans who are alive in the body. The word is never used in reference to anyone who has died | fallen asleep | is not alive and living in the body.
Amillennialism denies the above plain statements in scripture because if it does not deny the above facts, then it must admit that Amillennial doctrine is false.
Used in reference to God’s Spirit quickening, i.e making alive, giving or imparting (eternal) life. Also used in reference to the quickening of the mortal body.
anástasis, égersis; anístēmi; egeírō
A standing up again, i.e. (literally) a resurrection from death.
Without exception, whenever the words anástasis, égersis; anístēmi; egeírō are used in the New Testament, they are talking about, and referring to, the resurrection of the body (the body that died, which is the seed of the spiritual, but tangible, body that we have the assurance of, will be raised.
syzōopoiéō:
Used in reference to being quickened of the Spirit, i.e made alive again together with Christ.
synegeírō:
Refers to being bodily raised up together with Christ's bodily resurrection.
The word zōopoiéō is used in:-
|| John 5:21; John 6:63; Romans 4:17; Romans 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15 verses 22, 36 & 45; II Corinthians 3:6; Galatians 3:21; I Timothy 6:13; I Peter 3:18. ||
We are in bodies that have not yet been resurrected from death. Our bodies will die. Those who believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Logos of God, by whom and through whom all things were created and by whom all things consist, who became a man and died for our sins and rose again from the dead, are spiritually in Christ, who has been resurrected from the dead.
John 17:23: "I in them, and You in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them as You have loved Me."
Likewise, those who have been born of the Spirit of God, received eternal life from God when they were born of His Spirit.
"But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being dead (the body being dead) in sins,
(1) He has syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved);
(2) and has raised us up together (synegeírō - the word is referring to the resurrection of the body, not of the human spirit), and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).
Being born of the Spirit of God does not equate to the "resurrection" of the human spirit.
In Ephesians 2:4-6 Paul is telling us that we are quickened with Christ by His Spirit because of His quickening by the same Spirit (Christ is the Son of man and the last Adam), and so we are also bodily raised with Him. Colossians 2:12 and 3:1 are saying exactly the same thing.
Paul is telling us that positionally (our current position is that) we are already bodily raised with Christ who is the last Adam, the Son of man, through His bodily resurrection from the dead. This is why we are sure that we will be raised from the dead bodily, also. This is also why Paul adds that we are seated with Him ("made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus").
We are seated with Him in heavenly places because we have been bodily raised with Him (synegeírō), because we have been quickened by the Spirit of God with Him (syzōopoiéō), because we have been born of His Spirit:
"If Christ's Spirit is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness. Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō: make your mortal bodies alive] through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:10-11).
egeírō and synegeírō are referring to the resurrection of the body, and there is not one place in the entire New Testament where the words are NOT referring to the resurrection of the body.
Revelation 20:4-6 states:
1. Why those whom John saw alive in their bodies (zao) in Rev.20:4 had been beheaded (they were beheaded for their refusal to worship the beast); and
2. the fact that John saw them alive in their bodies (zao); and
3. uses the word anastasis in verses 5-6, which in the New Testament is always talking about the resurrection of the body.
In the long list of verses where it's found, the word záō (alive | living) is always referring either to the living God, or to humans who are alive in the body. The word is never used in reference to anyone who has died | fallen asleep | is not alive and living in the body.
Amillennialism denies the above plain statements in scripture because if it does not deny the above facts, then it must admit that Amillennial doctrine is false.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Nonsense. The word for alive in Rev 20:4 is zao and zao never appears in New Testament scripture in reference to any person who is not alive in the body. Zao always refers either to the living God or to a human alive in the body in the New Testament
- but these had been beheaded and the verse actually states why they were beheaded. Then John goes on to call their living in the body (zao) and reigning with Christ the first anastasis (the first resurrection of the body) and the word anastasis always only refers to the resurrection of the body in the New Testament.
Your assumptions that you make when you read Rev 20:4-6 and state the above fail to pass the test of fact and what Christians will choose to believe about this exposes all Christians for the facts that they will choose to ignore so as to interpret scripture not for what it says, but for what they choose it to be saying.
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Dear Zao is life,
You need to read my post more carefully.
You said:
The word for alive in Rev 20:4 is zao and zao never appears in New Testament scripture in reference to any person who is not alive in the body. Zao always refers either to the living God or to a human alive in the body in the New Testament.
I said nothing that disagrees with your statement above. Rev 20:4 is a teaching on the conversion event. When Elect are converted, they will spiritually come to life in Christ. At the time of their conversion, they are also said to be "beheaded" because Christ becomes their new head; the head of the body. The thousand years represents judgment when the new child of God (the bride) reigns with Christ over their own judgment. This is why the Elect do not experience wrath during their time of judgment. They have become a child of God (the bride) who is not judged. The judgment which occurs falls on the spirit of anti-Christ (man of sin) and the Great Harlot (the believer's worsened carnal nature) and is what completes a believer's conversion. Mat 24:40-41 applies to this judgment.
The spiritual symbol "First Resurrection", which is mentioned in Rev 20:5, is shown in detail in chapter 19 and the first part of 20. It is a believer's spiritual resurrection when they are saved. It is the cleansing of the inside of the cup (Mat 23:26). The symbol First Resurrection is synonymous with the term "conversion".
The First Resurrection is not the bodily resurrection. The bodily resurrection is shown to have occurred at the end of chapter 20 when Christ separates the sheep from the goats at the White Throne.
Joe
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
That's not true, and you have offered no scripture in support of your claims.
You're making a statement without producing any evidence. You may as well have people believe a swan is a chicken just because you say it's a chicken.
The truth is the swan - and your statement is a chicken. No biblical basis for it whatsoever.
What you are linking it to is once again simply untrue.
Unconverted people are spoken of as being zao (alive in the body) also in the New Testament when they are still alive, i.e alive in their bodies (those who have not died physically). Here's just one of many such verses:
Matthew 9:18
While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall be alive [záō].
So as you can see, Rev.20:4 has nothing to do with the conversion of those being mentioned, just because the word zao (alive in the body) is being used - and certainly not just because you say so. You cannot invent a new definition or add conversion to the definition of the word zao just so you can make Rev 20:4-6 comply with your doctrine.
Their conversion is not even mentioned in Rev.20:4-6 - only their bodily resurrection (anastasis) and that they had been beheaded before John saw them alive in their bodies (zao), and that they had been beheaded for refusal to worship the beast.
Their "conversion" at that point is is a meaning that you plainly (and have very obviously) eisegetically inserted into the text in your own mind (but not according to scripture).
We can infer that they had been converted and received the quickening of the Spirit of God in Christ at some point prior to their being beheaded, because of what is indeed being said of them (i.e not what you are saying about them), i.e that the second death will have no authority over them, and John linking their zao to the anastasis - resurrection of the body (unlike your own private interpretation of linking it to "their conversion").
But John himself (unlike you) linked his seeing zao (alive in the body) those who had been beheaded to (a) their refusal to worship the beast as the reason for their beheading; and (b) to the anastasis - the resurrection of the body - and that is the swan in Rev.20:4-6, unlike the chicken you want us to believe Rev.20:4-6 is, "just because you say so".
And you say it's a chicken while having absolutely no biblical basis whatsoever to say so. You're making it obvious that you're just guessing, and you are just guessing and believing your own private interpretation to be scriptural because that's what you think Rev 20:4-6 "should be" saying. But you don't even attempt to provide any biblical basis. And frankly, because you have already made it obvious that you are given to just guessing, I'm not going to devote more time to discuss this with yourself - at least not in this thread.
It's already clear that Amillennialism and its theological daughters have produced a vicious circle of interpreting all biblical scripture in such a way as to make scripture always comply with Amillennial theology, or their own personal adaptions of it, thus inserting an Amillennial interpretation into the text of each and every passage (practicing "eisegesis"), which in many passages results in changing what scripture is actually saying (the swan) into something scripture is not saying (your chicken), instead of allowing what the text is plainly saying to produce doctrine and theology (exegesis).
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Dear Zao is life,
What you stated in your post makes no sense. Rev chapter 19 and the first part of 20 is talking about the spiritual conversion of the Elect.
Do you not understand conversion?
You quoted this verse:
Matthew 9:18
While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall be alive [záō].
This verse teaches its message by "type" and it is teaching about conversion. The Elect are spiritually dead just before Christ comes to convert them. In other words, the Elect are spiritually dead and then made spiritually alive - just as Christ typed by raising the dead girl to life (zao).
You said:
Unconverted people are spoken of as being zao (alive in the body) also in the New Testament when they are still alive, i.e alive in their bodies (those who have not died physically).
At the time the writers of the New Testament wrote their letters to the churches, the spirit of anti-Christ had not come and devoured the church. The unconverted believers in the churches remained in "faith" and were "alive", just not converted. They were waiting as a chaste virgin for the Lord to return to convert them (the return of the Bridegroom).
But shortly after Paul's death, the spirit of anti-Christ did come and destroy the church. Now (since the end of the 1st century), all believers shortly after they receive the Early Rain of the Spirit (unconverted state), will come under the deceptions of the spirit of anti-Christ. With the spirit of anti-Christ indwelling the believer, the Abomination of Desolation will occur. It is at this time that the believer will fall from grace and lose their salvation. No new believer is excluded from experiencing this "day of evil".
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Because no one is excluded from the day of evil, the "many" who have been called into the church will lose their salvation. But from that group of "many", a "few" have been chosen for salvation before they physically die. They are the Elect. For them, Christ will "come again" and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit; immediately followed by His judgment. This spiritual work that Christ does within the Elect believer will result in their conversion. Conversion is what is being taught in Rev chapter 19 and in the first part of 20.
The fallen away believers who are not Elect will die in their sins and will receive their portion with the unbelievers in the Lake of Fire (Luke 12:46).
Below is where Christ teaches how a new believer falls from grace:
Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
The spiritual symbol of an unclean spirit represents a spirit which teaches Satan's false truth through lies and deceptions.
Since a new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit, they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with the truth of Christ. ONE unclean spirit leaves but comes back with SEVEN more. The number "seven" represents perfection. In this case, the number seven represents the perfection of Satan's lies/deceptions which come to a believer by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ. Now, instead of ONE unclean spirit within the believer, they now have EIGHT. The number eight is a spiritual symbol which represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, the new spiritual condition is worse than the first.
This "worse than the first" spiritual condition causes the believer to become a False Prophet, a Man of Sin, a Minister of Satan and a Seven Headed Beast with Ten Horns & Crowns.
Don't think that what Christ taught above doesn't apply to you. It does because it applies to everyone who is given the Early Rain of the Spirit.
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, it is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
You said:
We can infer that they had been converted and received the quickening of the Spirit of God in Christ at some point prior to their being beheaded, because of what is indeed being said of them (i.e not what you are saying about them), i.e that the second death will have no authority over them, and John linking their zao to the anastasis - resurrection of the body (unlike your own private interpretation of linking it to "their conversion").
Your understanding of scripture is carnal and not spiritual. Being beheaded happens to cleanse the inside of the cup so that Christ can become the Elect believer's new head. The second death is the spiritual death that occurs upon conversion. The Elect experience the second death during their lifetimes. But because they are saved PRIOR to judgment falling on their carnality, they do not experience wrath and are not harmed by the Lake of Fire.
However, the "lost" of the final age will experience wrath during their time of judgment because they are not converted when they are cast into the Lake of Fire (a symbol for Christ's judgment).
Because the Elect are "born again" prior to their judgment, Rev chapter 19 shows the new child of God (the bride) riding with Christ over the judgment of their carnality (child of the devil). The child of the devil is removed and judged in the Lake of Fire as shown in Rev 19:20 and Mat 24:40-41.
You said:
But John linking his seeing zao (alive in the body) those who had been beheaded to (a) their refusal to worship the beast; and (b) to the anastasis - the resurrection of the body - is the swan in Rev.20:4-6, unlike the chicken you want us to believe it is, "just because you say so".
Your understanding of how Christ saves a person is incorrect. When a believer receives the Early Rain of the Spirit, the child of God is said to be within the believer along side the child of the devil. A spiritual war develops between the two to see who will rule the believer's mind (head). Before the child of the devil can die, the spirit of anti-Christ enters the believer and causes the child of the devil to win the war. This is when the deadly head wound that the sword of Christ caused to the person is healed (Rev 13).
At this point, the believer is "fallen away" and is governed by the spirit of anti-Christ rather than the Holy Spirit. This makes the believer "worse than the first"; a man of sin. The Holy Spirit is still within the believer but cannot govern the mind (head) of the person.
However, when Christ "comes again" to the Elect believer, Christ will bring the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) and the baptism of Fire (judgment).
John the Baptist mentions them here:
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
After both baptisms are complete, the believer will be converted. They will then have a new head (Christ). The spiritual death of the "man of sin" whose head is Satan is symbolized by the beheading which occurs during judgment.
What I have explained is just one of the many ways scripture teaches about the conversion process.
Joe
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Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Lol. Joe, Joe, Joe. The circumcision of the heart that takes place in the believer is not called or metaphorically referred to as "beheading" anywhere in scripture and such a ludicrous idea clearly never popped up in the minds of any the New Testament authors as you falsely claim.
You would call the apostles' understanding of the gospels carnal and not spiritual. And you would call the teaching of the apostles carnal and not physical, because I only quote what they actually taught.
You quote your own very strange adaptation of the scriptures, that neither existed in the mind of Christ nor in the minds of His apostles who were inspired by the Spirit of Christ to teach and to write, as can be seen by what you say above.
Anyway I can't discuss this with you any more as you clearly have your own non-Christian unbiblical version of Christianity.
Thanks for the time.
You would call the apostles' understanding of the gospels carnal and not spiritual. And you would call the teaching of the apostles carnal and not physical, because I only quote what they actually taught.
You quote your own very strange adaptation of the scriptures, that neither existed in the mind of Christ nor in the minds of His apostles who were inspired by the Spirit of Christ to teach and to write, as can be seen by what you say above.
Anyway I can't discuss this with you any more as you clearly have your own non-Christian unbiblical version of Christianity.
Thanks for the time.
TribulationSigns
Active Member
Huh? So you believe that Satan was in bottomless pit long before and he was released in 33AD? When did he get bound and cast into bottomless pit?
Rev 20:1-3
(1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
(2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
(3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
What was Satan's little season? And when did it end in your 70AD preterism theory? What happened to Satan after a short season?
3 Resurrections
Active Member
The bottomless pit - the "abysson" - is not a location one can locate on a map. It is a condition or a state of being, just as Christ was said to be in the abyss while His body lay in the tomb for three days and three nights in a non-functioning condition (as in Romans 10:7).
Satan was placed in this restricted condition of not being able to deceive the nations during those literal one thousand years which ended at the First resurrection in AD 33. That means this symbolic "chain" and this "seal" were restricting Satan's deception of the nations from 968 / 967 BC until AD 33. That amounted to a literal thousand years from Solomon's physical temple foundation stone being laid down until Christ in AD 33 replaced this by becoming the spiritual "chief corner stone" of the spiritual temple not made with hands.
John warned the believers in Revelation 12:12 that Satan's "short time" (the same as his "little season") had already begun before he was writing Revelation. The Devil at that time had already come down to the earth to afflict its inhabitants in great anger, knowing he only had a "short time" left to operate in this world.
The scripture defines the duration of a "long season" as lasting 40 years of wilderness wanderings for the Israelites (Joshua 24:7). By comparison, a "little season" is going to be less than 40 years.
Satan's "little season" of release from his millennial "chain" in AD 33 to deceive the nations once again without restriction only lasted until he and all the unclean spirits were imprisoned within the city of Jerusalem from AD 66-70 (as Revelation 18:2 described). And Satan along with the entire demonic realm was completely destroyed by the close of that period.
Paul writing around AD 60 encouraged the Roman believers in Romans 16:20 by assuring them that God was going to crush Satan under their feet "shortly". Which God accomplished by the close of AD 70. We have Isaiah 24:21-23 predicting the timing for this imprisonment and destruction of the evil angelic hosts along with the high priest "kings of the earth". These were all going to suffer the same fate of destruction simultaneously, according to Isaiah. God predicted that He would cause the unclean spirits to "pass out of the land", as Zechariah 13:2 predicted for the period of the siege both against Judah and Jerusalem. All these evil entities that composed the Satanic realm were destroyed from existing anymore, and are gone from this world.
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TribulationSigns
Active Member
Satan was not able to deceive the nations between 978BC to AD33?? LOL!!!!!!! Totally speculation! Nothing in Scripture that say any relationship between Satan's binding and temple foundations. Totally nonsense!
Huh?! You do not make any biological sense! You have no clues on the PURPOSE of Satan, a strong man, being bound?!
Mat 12:28-29
(28) But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
(29) Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
The purpose of Satan's binding is to spoil people from His world (house) into salvation. Nothing to do with template foundation. Your millennial kingdom theory is not backed by Scripture.
40 years as "long season"? According to WHAT SCRIPTURE or just your other private speculation?
Where did you get this from in Scripture? Totally speculation!
Satan is already crushed... at the Cross. Satan kept being crushing as the church expanded into the world.
Totally misinterpretation of Scripture.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
The purpose of Satan being "chained" with a "seal" put upon this condition for a literal thousand years John said in Revelation 20:3 was to keep Satan from deceiving the nations until that literal thousand years had been fulfilled. This is a pretty clear statement.
The fact that Christ and the disciples were then "spoiling" the goods of the "strong man" (Satan) was a visual demonstration proving that the millennial binding of Satan had already been started "FIRST" - long before Christ's earthly ministry began.
The purpose of the millennial chained restriction put upon Satan was to remove the deceived ignorance about the God of Israel from the nations of the world. The establishment of Solomon's kingdom under the well-known magnificence of that physical temple structure did indeed help to spread the knowledge of the God of Israel among the nations at the time. Even the Queen of Sheba acknowledged this.
Every workman coming into Israel or the temple site to help build that structure was exposed to the knowledge of the God of Israel, whether they responded or not in faith to that knowledge. As well as every single one of those one thousand concubines and wives that Solomon gathered from all the nations. Each of the nations' ambassadors bringing those women to Solomon became aware of the God of Israel, whether or not they responded in faith to that knowledge. God was able to use even Solomon's slide into idolatry and hedonism to further the restriction of Satan's deception of the nations. He is able to make even the wrath of men to praise Him.
This was especially true of the Israelite nation being scattered into the nations of the world with the various deportations of the people. The nation of Israel's exile into the nations of the world under the Babylonian invasions only served to spread the knowledge of the God of Israel into all those foreign nations. You should read the decrees sent into all the known world from both a humbled Nebuchadnezzar and the Persian king Darius after Daniel was delivered miraculously from the lion's den. Also the decrees sent out in Esther's days by King Ahasuerus in defense of the Jews, and the eventual elevation of Mordecai to power in the king's court.
The OT scripture is saturated by the stories of how God used even the pagan empires' domination of His own people Israel to further spread the knowledge about Himself among the nations. God designed that literal thousand-years period of the Old Covenant worship system (from Solomon's temple foundation stone being laid down until Christ's resurrection day) as a means of keeping Satan's deception of the nations bound. That millennium was a symbol picturing the upcoming spiritual reality of the spiritual temple not made with hands.
Joshua 24:7 compared to Deuteronomy 8:2 and Amos 2:10 tells us that God considers a "long season" to be 40 years. Look it up. This means a "little season" must be less than 40 years for Satan's "short time" of once again deceiving the nations.
I wouldn't state these facts without scripture backup. Christ Himself told the people when Satan was going to be cast out of heaven, and He mentioned this twice. Five days before the crucifixion, He told them in John 12:31 that "Now is the judgment of this world: NOW shall the prince of this world be cast out." (cast out of heaven down to earth). And in John 14:30 on the night of the last supper, He told the disciples, "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me." Christ knew that the coming Rev. 12 battle in heaven between Michael and Satan's forces would end with His resurrection-day ascension when Satan and his devils would be cast out of heaven down to earth. This agrees with John in Revelation 12:12, saying that the Devil had already come down to earth in great wrath for that "short time" to harass the inhabitants of the earth and sea.
We know that Christ predicted that the "wicked generation" of first-century Israel in its "last state" would have unclean spirits return in seven-fold numbers more wicked than those He had cast out of them during the nation's "first state" when He had been among them (Matthew 12:43-45). All these unclean spirits and the host of evil angels along with Satan would together be imprisoned within the city of Jerusalem during the many days of the Jerusalem siege from AD 66-70. Revelation 18:2 predicted this, as well as Isaiah 24:21-23.
God had predicted in Ezekiel 28:18-19 that the anointed cherub (Satan) would be burned to ashes on the earth, "And never shalt thou exist anymore". Old Jerusalem turned into the "Lake of Fire" for the city's second death, and God used this environment to burn up Satan and his devils. The unclean spirits imprisoned within that city of Old Jerusalem "passed out of the land" at that time, as Zechariah 13:2 predicted.
You can disregard these texts if you wish, but they are not my speculation. God has destroyed the entire Satanic realm back in AD 70, and they no longer exist. And I haven't even listed all of the texts that speak about this.
Satan was NOT crushed at the Cross. The Cross was Satan bruising Christ's heel, as predicted to Eve. Christ told the chief priests and captains of the temple and elders that arrested Him in the Garden that "This is your hour, and the power of darkness" at that point (Luke 22:53). It took Christ's resurrection-day ascension to His Father in heaven to "annul" Satan as the accuser of the brethren. That is when Satan and his devils were cast out of heaven's "court" down to earth, to once again deceive the nations at that end of the millennium years in AD 33.
Christ came to first "annul" Satan (in AD 33), and then to destroy him and his works (in AD 70). Christ accomplished this, as scripture predicted in multiple places. It is the institutional church that has continued using the threat of the Satanic realm to help instill fear and submission to "mother church", when that Satanic realm has long-since been destroyed. It's great for keeping people under control, but it violates scripture's statements about the fate of the Devil.
What we cope with today is the human "children of the devil" as Christ called the hypocritical Pharisees in His day. That and our own heart's evil is plenty to contend with that will keep us busy until Christ returns the next time in our future.
Dear Zao is life,
You said:
Lol. Joe, Joe, Joe. The circumcision of the heart that takes place in the believer is not called or metaphorically referred to as "beheading" anywhere in scripture and such a ludicrous idea clearly never popped up in the minds of any the New Testament authors as you falsely claim.
I never said that it did. I can't imagine why you would say such a thing.
The circumcision of the heart occurs when the Holy Spirit enters the heart by the Latter Rain of the Spirit. That event is what leads to a person's conversion.
With the Holy Spirit now governing the heart, the heart is changed and becomes a new heart:
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
The "beheading" occurs as a result of the new heart that is within the person. With a new heart, the carnal mind of the believer will be converted into the mind of Christ.
This verse applies:
Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the (new) earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
The spiritual symbol "earth" is synonymous with the symbol "heart". When the Holy Spirit is in the New Earth (New Heart), the believer will learn righteousness by the judgments that come from the Spirit within the converted believer. These judgments will remove the believer's head (Satan/carnal mind) and replaced it with the head of Christ (mind of Christ).
This is how conversion works: the carnal nature (wicked heart/natural earth/Great Harlot) is removed and destroyed by judgment after a person receives the Latter Rain of the Holy Spirit. This judgment is called the Baptism of Fire/Day of the Lord/Thousand Years Reign. With the Spirit within them, the believer will have a new spiritual nature (New Heart/New Earth) which will judge (destroy/transform/behead) their carnal mind (Satan's head) and give them the mind of Christ (Christ's head/New Heaven).
As I said earlier, conversion is frequently taught in scripture and it is taught in many different ways. Those ways include analogies, parables and "types" - all of which use spiritual symbols (spirit words, John 6:63). This is what it means when scripture says that Christ will teach in "another language" when He comes. This language is the spiritual language of Christ which He uses to teach the truth of the New Covenant. It is not same literal language which He used to teach the Old Covenant of Law.
Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (converted believers who "see" spiritually). 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and ANOTHER LANGUAGE will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken (by Satan/how the apostate church was formed).
When a person receives the Early Rain of the Spirit, they will remain unconverted, carnally minded and spiritually blind. In other words, they will only be able to see Christ (God's Word) in the flesh (carnal understanding of Him). This is what Paul meant when he said that unconverted believers can only understand "Christ and Him crucified" (1Cor 2:2). Paul said this because new believers can understand the physical work of Christ that He did under the Old Covenant but they will have great difficulty understanding the spiritual work that Christ is now doing under the New Covenant to convert a person into a child of God.
You said:
You would call the apostles' understanding of the gospels carnal and not spiritual? And you would call the teaching of the apostles carnal and not physical, because I only quote what they actually taught?
When the apostles walked with Christ during His journey to the cross, they had only received the Early Rain of the Spirit. Because of such, they were still unconverted, carnally minded and spiritually blind just as all new believers are today. They had a measure of faith and certain spiritual gifts but they could not understand the spiritual teachings of the New Covenant.
I will make a second post which supports what I just stated because it is a little too long to fit into this post.
Joe
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Dear Zao is life,
Mark 8:15 And he charged them, saying, take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, it is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I broke the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, how is it that ye do not understand?
In the verses above, Christ is giving His disciples a lesson on the spiritual language of God's Word - His language:
Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
At this point in time (before they were converted at Pentecost), the disciples had received the Early Rain of the Spirit but had not yet received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain of the Spirit). And because of such, they were still spiritually blind and could not understand the spiritual language of Christ.
Christ ends His comments above by asking the disciples this question: “How is it that ye do not understand?” No response from the disciples is recorded in scripture. However, Christ answers His own question in the very next four verses.
Mark 8:22 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.
Since Christ is the Word of God, He teaches us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things that He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, Christ goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer in type by the healing of a blind man.
In verse 23, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. These actions occur as the blind man is looking down which symbolizes the carnal aspect of His healing. Christ does not have to tell the blind man to look down, the blind man just does it naturally. The spit (water) symbolizes the blind man receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit with its accompanying vision (carnal understanding). This event represents the time when an unbeliever is called out from the world and enters the church.
After Christ asks the man what he could see, the man looks up and says that he could see men "walking as trees". "Walking as trees" is a spiritual symbol for called out believers who walk by sight (the flesh, carnal nature) rather than by faith & the Spirit. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted and could only see Christ carnally. Paul stated that this near-sighted type of understanding will only allow a believer to see "Christ and Him crucified" (1Cor 2:2). This means that the new believer can see Christ's physical work that He did under the Old Covenant, but Christ's spiritual work that He is presently doing under the New Covenant will remain blurred.
This first healing of the blind man reflects the true spiritual condition of a new believer when they first enter the church. At this time, the believer is left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted. They can see a little, but that only opens the door to Satan's carnally based deceptions - deceptions which each new believer will readily accept due to their carnal nature still being in control of them (Mat 12:43-45, Mat 24:24 & Luke 5:39).
For a carnally minded and spiritually blind believer (Early Rain only), the Old Wine still tastes better than the New Wine:
Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desires the new: for he says, The old is better.
The Old Wine represents the Old Covenant which is based on the works of man. The New Wine represents the New Covenant which is solely based on the spiritual works of Christ.
Peter says that this near-sighted condition is the same as being blind:
2Pet 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Peter makes this statement because the believers to whom he was addressing were mixing their own works with faith. They were still preferring the Old Wine.
In the final verse of the story of the blind man, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again, but as He does, Christ has the man look up instead of down. This second healing represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit when true spiritual vision is given to a believer. The man’s upward gaze represents the spiritual aspect of the healing in contrast to the carnal aspect when the blind man was looking down at the earth.
From that moment onward, we now know that the blind man is a type for a called AND chosen believer who has received both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit (James 5:7-8). The man has been given eyes that can see spiritually ("drawn from the breasts" Isa 28:9). From his new ability to understand God's Word, he will then come out from Satan's deceptions and will begin walking by faith. He will be included in the resurrection of the First Fruits and will receive the reward of life during the ages.
You said:
You quote your own very strange adaptation of the scriptures, that neither existed in the mind of Christ nor in the minds of His apostles who were inspired by the Spirit of Christ to teach and to write, as can be seen by what you say above.
Anyway I can't discuss this with you any more as you clearly have your own non-Christian unbiblical version of Christianity.
My "strange adaptation of the scriptures" comes from being able to understand the spiritual language of Christ. I was converted in 2005 and my understanding of scripture quickly changed from that point going forward.
This scripture applies:
Prov 2:1 My son (a converted believer), if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, 2 making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; 3 yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, 4 if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.
Someday you will have the ability to understand and "see" what Christ has shown me. God's Word says it will surely happen in "due time":
1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
If you ever have any questions, I will try to make myself available to answer them (as the Lord "wills").
Joe
You're welcome to think what you want to think.
To you.
Yes, I understand your line of thought. No need; we've been through it several times before. Rest assured that what you think of my assertions is returned in full.
And I'll add, too, Zao, that your assertions about amillennialism itself are wrong, a case in point being your statement that "God quickens the dead body (imparts everlasting life) through "the resurrection of the human spirit" is wrong... and even confusing in and of itself, frankly. This seems just another way to phrase your "conflating new birth with resurrection" thing, which is just kind of a mishmash of things and thus ridiculous. What I am unsure of is whether it's inadvertent on your part or intentional. Either way, it is what it is.
This we would disagree on also, if you what you really mean what this seems to mean on its face. Christ was not quickened as we are, He was not brought from death in sin to life in Christ as we are. This would at least seem to be a denial that Christ is God, which I hope is not the case.
Your objection here is a bit puzzling. It is what it is. What do you want me to say or not say about it? Sure, they "had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands." My question to you, Zao, would be, why were they "giving testimony of Jesus and for the word of God" and not worshiping "the beast or its image" and "had not received its mark?" Why do you suppose that is, Zao?
Again, I'm not really sure what the objection here is. Yes, John saw the souls of those we are talking about. Seems to me ~ and you'll probably scoff at this, I guess, but no matter ~ the gulf between us is John's seeing them. This is a vision that he's being given, right. I'll leave that right there...
But ignoring it, or denying it, or... however else you might (mis)characterize it? No... No, I'm not doing that, Zao... Not in the least... So again, these two... see directly above.
Regarding Revelation 20, no, the second resurrection, which is in view in verses 11-13 ~ having happened just prior to what we "see" there ~ is that. The word 'anastasis' in verses 5-6 is directly correlated with what Paul says about us having been raised up with Christ in Ephesians 2:6 (as I have said many times). And I'll answer the question I posed to you above here: The "those" referred to in Revelation 20:4 were raised up ~ in the vernacular of Paul in Ephesians 2:6 ~ in the same way we are today. They were born again and thus ~ were then, or were subsequently, if you want to insist on that ~ raised up in Christ, and thus were saved, in the same way we are today. This is why they were giving testimony of Jesus and for the Word of God.
In your opinion. Sure. Get that...
No, I'm certainly not "confused," but I have no problem with you thinking that.
My identity is in Christ. As I hope yours is. Hmm, I "believe Scripture contradicts Scripture"? That's quite a ridiculous assertion, especially since I've spent more time than should be necessary talking specifically about how seemingly disparate passages of Scripture correlate intensely. That's been a very large part of the points I have made. And the irony is that I would say you inadvertently do the very thing you attribute to me. But, so be it.Grace and peace to you, Zao.
TribulationSigns
Active Member
In your carnal mind, you may think it is "clear" to you, but you are not!
You do not understand what "nations" the Lord talked about here. God is not talking about geopolitical nations here. Rather the nations here are the Gentiles...The spiritual Gentiles who are spiritually lost. God is saying here that He has restrained Satan from deceiving the lost so that the Gospel can reach them and save them but he testimony of Two Witnesses (Christians). UNTIL all Gentiles are coming in, then Satan can be loosened again to deceive Gentiles/nations once again. In other words, there won't be any more salvation after this for a short season.
Selah!
Very good. Thank you.
Why, David? Just because you're "Premil" and you just don't want to find it reasonable?
Which I would agree with...
Well, that would be the second. Along with everyone else (except for those who are still alive at the time of Christ's return). As Jesus said, "an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:28-29)
Well, see directly above.
Is... not a fact. Now, some folks out there may insist on this; a lot of people insist on a lot of different things...
And even then, David, whether these folks you're talking about are really ammillennialists is questionable.Agreed.
So, David, maybe what you find unreasonable is, well, not the case at all.
Grace and peace to you.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
You're welcome to think what you want to think.
To you.
No need; we've been through it several times before. Rest assured that what you think of my assertions is returned in full.
And I'll add, too, Zao, that your assertions about amillennialism itself are wrong, a case in point being your statement that "God quickens the dead body (imparts everlasting life) through "the resurrection of the human spirit" is wrong... and even confusing in and of itself, frankly. This seems just another way to phrase your "conflating new birth with resurrection" thing, which is just kind of a mishmash of things and thus ridiculous. What I am unsure of is whether it's inadvertent on your part or intentional. Either way, it is what it is.
This we would disagree on also, if you what you really mean what this seems to mean on its face. Christ was not quickened as we are, He was not brought from death in sin to life in Christ as we are. This would at least seem to be a denial that Christ is God, which I hope is not the case.
Your objection here is a bit puzzling. It is what it is. What do you want me to say or not say about it? Sure, they "had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands." My question to you, Zao, would be, why were they "giving testimony of Jesus and for the word of God" and not worshiping "the beast or its image" and "had not received its mark?" Why do you suppose that is, Zao?
Again, I'm not really sure what the objection here is. Yes, John saw the souls of those we are talking about. Seems to me ~ and you'll probably scoff at this, I guess, but no matter ~ the gulf between us is John's seeing them. This is a vision that he's being given, right. I'll leave that right there...
So again, these two... see directly above.
Regarding Revelation 20, no, the second resurrection, which is in view in verses 11-13 ~ having happened just prior to what we "see" there ~ is that. The word 'anastasis' in verses 5-6 is directly correlated with what Paul says about us having been raised up with Christ in Ephesians 2:6 (as I have said many times). And I'll answer the question I posed to you above here: The "those" referred to in Revelation 20:4 were raised up ~ in the vernacular of Paul in Ephesians 2:6 ~ in the same way we are today. They were born again and thus ~ were then, or were subsequently, if you want to insist on that ~ raised up in Christ, and thus were saved, in the same way we are today. This is why they were giving testimony of Jesus and for the Word of God.
In your opinion. Sure. Get that...
No, I'm certainly not "confused," but I have no problem with you thinking that.
Grace and peace to you, Zao.
Continue with your own private interpretations as you will. It matters not to the truth about this
As we all know, Paul, the apostle of Jesus, taught us the following:-
"If Christ's Spirit is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.
Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō: make your mortal bodies alive] through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:10-11).
Note: The one who raised Christ from the dead will quicken your mortal bodies if His Spirit dwells in you:
"God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being dead (the body being dead) in sins,
(1) He has syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved);
(2) and has raised us up together (synegeírō - the word is referring to the resurrection of the body, not of the human spirit),
and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).
egeírō and synegeírō are referring to the resurrection of the body, and there is not one place in the entire New Testament where the words are NOT referring to the resurrection of the body.
We are seated with Him in heavenly places because we have been bodily raised with Him (synegeírō), because we have been quickened by the Spirit of God with Him (syzōopoiéō), because we have been BORN of His Spirit.As we all know, Paul, the apostle of Jesus, taught us the following:-
"If Christ's Spirit is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.
Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō: make your mortal bodies alive] through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:10-11).
Note: The one who raised Christ from the dead will quicken your mortal bodies if His Spirit dwells in you:
"God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being dead (the body being dead) in sins,
(1) He has syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved);
(2) and has raised us up together (synegeírō - the word is referring to the resurrection of the body, not of the human spirit),
and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).
egeírō and synegeírō are referring to the resurrection of the body, and there is not one place in the entire New Testament where the words are NOT referring to the resurrection of the body.
Paul says exactly the same thing in his letter to the Colossians (Colossians 2:12 and 3:1).
Paul is telling us that our current position in Christ (for those who are still alive in the body) is that we are already bodily raised with Christ who is the last Adam, the Son of man, through His bodily resurrection from the dead. This is why we are sure that we will be raised from the dead bodily, also. (This is also why Paul adds that we are seated with Him in heavenly places ("made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus").
God is a Spirit (John 4:24). Spirit gives birth to spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh. (John 3:6). Birth and resurrection are not the same thing, though you must have it to be so in accordance with your own personal interpretation of the scriptures - because you conflate the quickening by the Spirit of God with the spirit of humans and ignore the fact that the quickening of the spirit is concerned with the resurrection of the body,
and you assert this without real (actual) proof anywhere in scripture that "resurrection" ever speaks of anything other than the resurrection of the body from the dead (though you for some uncanny reason claim you have and seem to believe you have provided proof).
Now let me do what you do, by adding to my last sentence above, which is the subject of my PS:
At least you believe in Christ. At least I hope you do.
PS: You do not have to say in each post something like you "hope" I believe in or identify myself with Christ as a believer in Christ, or make some other foolish and subtle insinuation or question regarding my salvation (which though you ignorantly believe no one else who reads will notice, yet many have, and will).
Whether you deny it now or not (and you most certainly will deny it because this is how you generally roll, very subtly),
yet despite what you would rather hide, the wise believers in Jesus can see that you make yourself available to the accuser of the brethren by very slyly and subtly hurling Satan's kind of question that he would want you to ask, using wording that he would want you to use, at anyone who is disagreeing with you - but via the back door of "concern" (or whatever category you choose to hide that sort of question under), and just quickly, and subtly .
There's a difference between the fruit of the Spirit and feigned fruit of the Spirit, and that difference itself is so subtle, that the feigned fruit gets mistaken as the real fruit by most believers. Satan is very subtle and has more than a few willing servants in Christian places. Most of them are very good at feigning the fruit of the Spirit.
Whether you deny it now or not (and you most certainly will deny it because this is how you generally roll, very subtly),
yet despite what you would rather hide, the wise believers in Jesus can see that you make yourself available to the accuser of the brethren by very slyly and subtly hurling Satan's kind of question that he would want you to ask, using wording that he would want you to use, at anyone who is disagreeing with you - but via the back door of "concern" (or whatever category you choose to hide that sort of question under), and just quickly, and subtly .
There's a difference between the fruit of the Spirit and feigned fruit of the Spirit, and that difference itself is so subtle, that the feigned fruit gets mistaken as the real fruit by most believers. Satan is very subtle and has more than a few willing servants in Christian places. Most of them are very good at feigning the fruit of the Spirit.
I do not question or subtly ask questions about your salvation or anyone else's - not even whenever it becomes obvious that like yourself, they do not deal honestly with all scripture - because they are using their belief in their own ism to ensure that any statement made by Jesus or the apostles in any verse or passage of scripture, must not contradict the ism
- because if it does contradict their "ism", then "it's not true" and the actual meaning of what Jesus or His apostles or Luke wrote has to be changed into something other that what it actually says, so as not to contradict the ism.
In your case of course, it's amillennialism causing you to deal with the scriptures the way you do.
Amillennialism and other Amillennialists do not cause you to express your "hope" that someone who obviously claims to believe in Christ (like myself) actually does identify himself as a believer in Christ though. There's another source for that.
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