A Third Jewish Temple is Required

[Earburner]

In another post, I showed how the Roman church does just that via their "Immaculate Conception" doctrine.

The Immaculate Conception is a religious work of the wisdom of men, just as is the religious work of churches believing in a future 1000 year reign of Christ on earth.

No - the "whore" is an apostate church, not those who've dropped off the prophetic timeline forever when the Gospel was taken from them and given to the Gentiles.

Sorry, there are only two prophetic "mothers" in NT scripture. One is "fallen", and the other is "free".
1. Jerusalem that now is, the mother of harlots.
2. Jerusalem which is above, the mother of us all [who are of faith].

No way the Greek Antiochus arose "among" the Ten Horns that arose out of the fallen Roman Empire! Good gravy, man, you're blown by every wind of Jesuit doctrine because you don't stick to the prophetic timeline!

Antiochus E.-lV arose among the 10 horns, but he was NOT OF THEM. The Grecian empire (3rd beast) was still ruling the world, while the Romans were only emerging as a republic, coming onto the world stage. They didn't become an empire until 27 BC.

Switch back and forth between what? The Ten Horns of Daniel and Revelation are the same, with perhaps a dual prophecy of a coming "ten world divisions" like the "Club or Rome" or something.

The papacy can't be both the whore and the 10H beast.

Wrong! I've told you "the woman is that great city with reigneth over the kings of the Earth" - Jerusalem never reigned over the Earth, nor is it the city upon 7 hills upon which the woman sits - it'sBeast.

Then you don't understand what Zionism is.
When you figure it out of who controls the World Currencies, then you will know how it reigns over the kings of the earth.

Not literal hills or mountains, but rather it is symbolic of the "seven heads", being that of the previous governments of the past three beasts, as revealed in Rev. 13:2.
Though the governmental powers of the previous 3 beasts no longer rule the world, their people, ethnicity and traditions still live on, even upto today. Dan. 7:12

By the way, if you want to get literal, Jerusalem sits on seven hills.
"Jerusalem's seven hills are Mount Scopus, Mount Olivet (Mount of Olives) and the Mount of Corruption (all three are peaks in a mountain ridge that lies east of the old city), Mount Ophel, the original Mount Zion, the New Mount Zion and the hill on which the Antonia Fortress was built."

Jerusalem's Seven Hills Map

What are the names of Jerusalem's seven hills? Where are the located in relation to the old city?

www.biblestudy.org

Because Revelation 13 depicts the papacy but Revelation 17 depicts the papacy in greater detail. I hope by now you understand God's prophetic principle of "Repetition and Enlargement".

Did Daniel 2 show us the Little Horn antichrist? No - that came later in Daniel 7. So, too, the "Beast of Revelation 13" is the papacy - the union of church and state - but the "Whore Riding the Beast in Revelation 17" is the unmistakable depiction of the catholic church in control of the secular governments of the world.

Just as wicked pagan priestess Jezebel controlled the direction of the king, so too, the wicked Whore holds the reins of the beast upon which she rides.

"Jews" is a symbolic prophetic expression for "Christians" - everyone knows Christians were called "Jews" by Pagan Rome because they, among other things, kept the Sabbath day!

That's right, Earburner, you didn't know that, did you? Read what Socrates Scholasticus and St. Patrick have to say about which day was kept throughout the Christian world.

John says the city "reigns over the kings of the Earth".

Really? They remained GREEK which is why no one but you draws a distinction.

False distinction on your part isn't "erroneous foisting" on our part.

LOL The two legs represent Rome, not Constantinople. Did you forget that prophecy concerns nations that impact God's people? Compared to the extreme expansion and persecution of Christianity in the Western Roman Empire, Constantinople was merely a byword.

The papacy is the Antichrist/Little Horn/Man of Sin/Beast of Revelation 13/Whore Riding the Beast - while "apostate Protestantism" is the "False Prophet" which will be the driving force behind the "image to the beast" when the religious laws now on the books will be enforced, contrary to the 1st Amendment.

The Roman Empire divided (two legs of iron) into the Eastern and Western Empires
Again, there is no future "little horn" to come, nor is there one now. All of that prophecy of the 1290 days within the 2300 days, concerning "the abomination that maketh desolate", was fulfilled by the "little horn", Antiochus Epiphanes.

Once prophecy has been fulfilled, it cannot be fulfilled again.
However, in typology, Jesus used it to POINT TO HIMSELF as being that "abomination that maketh [causes to be] desolate". He did the same with "Jonah and the whale".

Dan. 8
[22] Now that being broken [Alex the Great], whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms [heads- Dan. 7:6] shall stand up out of the nation [Greece], but not in his power [of Alex the Great].
[23] And in the latter time of THEIR kingdom [of Greece], when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up [aka the only "little horn" there ever shall be, Antiochus Epiphanes]
Read and study 1&2 Maccabees.

It seems this is the only area upon which we agree. Zionists use and abuse Christianity when the "bless them that bless you, curse them that curse you" promise applies not to them, but "Abraham's seed" - the church.

Zionism (the synagogue of satan)seeks to own and control the world. They honestly believe that they are the Savior of this present earth, being themselves the "suffering servant", and NOT Jesus. Isa. 53.

Now, let's talk about how it's going in Gaza with Israel, aka Zionism.

 

[Phoneman777]

"Beware of the leaven [religion] of the pharisees", aka "the wisdom of men"-1 Cor. 2:5.
For example: the "Early church fathers-ECF" were not anointed by the Holy Spirit, but rather were "theo-logical", using their "natural minds" to discern God's word.
Personally, I do not acknowledge the ECF, nor do I quote them.

So, men who were almost 2 thousand years closer in proximity to Paul, intimately aware of the prevailing beliefs circulating at that time - are not to be trusted, but lying Jesuits should be?

No, the reason you don't trust the ECFs is because their testimony fully establishes Protestant Historicism and destroys Jesuit Futurism.

How is that which the "religion" of the RCC demands from its members, any different than what the "religion" of the Baptists, SDAs, Pentecostals, Methodists, Mormons, or JWs etc. demand from their members?? All of it is not Christianity, but rather the theo-logical doctrines and traditions of men, aka church-ianity.

I can't believe how absolutely ignorant you are of anything except Jesuit Futurist ideas, yet you presume to argue against what you know nothing about?

Does anyone else demand we confess sin to another sinful man as the papacy requires?

Scripturally, the word "antichrist" is thoroughly and completely described by the Holy Spirit in the epistles of John. There is no need for anyone to put an additional "spin" on it.

What you call "spin" I call properly defined Greek terms.

The Greek compound word "anti-Christos" means "for Christ" or "in place of Christ" or "in behalf of Christ" or "instead of Christ" in the same way we say "antibiotic" or "antipasta" which are substitutes for the same.

The papacy has claimed for centuries to do just that, and anyone who defines "antichrist" differently has no business teaching anyone about eschatology.

 

[Phoneman777]

This is hardly Scripture according to Daniel 2. It is too papacy centered and missing the whole point of the actual church.

The papacy occupies no more space than prophecy demands, and certainly doesn't teach papal centrality.

Satan is always the primary head of the beast.

A "beast" is a "kingdom" - not Satan. The Papal kingdom is the Beast of Revelation 13.

Not the papacy, or some secret world order. The beast is wounded because since the Reformation, the church has been holding the beast in check, through the power of Holy Spirit.

The ECFs agree Paul told the Thessalonians in person what he refused to write down in his letter: that Pagan Rome kept the Beast's rise in check...because if Paul had written "...when the Roman Empire is taken out of the way..." and that letter fell into the hands of Roman authorities, Christianity would have been wiped off the face of the Earth before the wax seal on Caesar's extermination order cooled off.

Why would the intrepid apostle who boldly preached Christ before kings and peasants at great risk to his own soul suddenly become secretive and sheepish? Surely, Paul would not pass up opportunity to encourage Christians of all ages with "Brethren, though we led like lambs to the slaughter and are killed all the day long, be encouraged that the Holy Spirit has His celestial boot firmly on the neck of the Man of Sin".

Of course, Jesuit Futurism's seductive sensationalism is always preferred over critical examination of it.

That is what keeps the mortal wound going. The church is the rock cut out without hands that destroyed the image in the toes causing the fatal end to the first 5 kingdoms including the papacy.

Good gravy, what Bible are you reading? Daniel plainly says of the Stone, "in the days of those kings, the SON OF MAN - JESUS - shall set up a kingdom..."

That was the outcome of the Reformation. Not church theology that caused further splintering of the church. The historist are stuck in the past, just not as deep as preterist.

The church is not centered and controlled by some central authority of human governance. That is what caused the apostasy in the first place. Remember when Israel wanted a king like all the other nations? The church was to fill the earth, that means local people all over the earth under the submission of the Holy Spirit.

The dragon/sea beast/scarlet beast only has 7 heads, so there will only be 7 earthly empires not 8. Your math is wrong. The 8th kingdom is the 7th head, but it will only happen after a 7th Kingdom. So look in Revelation, before you start guessing. The 6th head is wounded, and literally defunct. It is splintered, because there never was going to be a 6th world empire. You say people are working behind the scenes, in high places with Satan. That is probably true, but no nation wants to give in to a single nation, unless they get to be that single nation, so all you get is a stalemate.

So the Second Coming is the game changer, because the church is removed, and Satan may in fact heal the 6th head. The problem is that the Second Coming not only removes the church, but it places the Prince to come, yes Jesus as King, to actually sit on a throne in Jerusalem. That is Scripture: Matthew 25:31-32

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

So the 6th head may be healed, but is now in direct competition with God, now seen visibly on the earth. Not just Jesus on a throne. God sitting on the GWT is in plain sight, as all spiritual blindness has been lifted. Revelation 6:14-16

"And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb."

Not only is there a shake up of current world government, but all on earth can see the face of the one sitting on the GWT, the one that in the OT, no one could look upon and live.

So we have the 7th Kingdom right there in Jerusalem. And there is tribulation and trouble like none else because during the first 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders, Jesus is going to be tossing people into the LOF, or redeeming them out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, in preparation for the Day of the Lord. And the 7th Trumpet declares the 7th Kingdom: Revelation 11:15

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

So if there even is an 8th kingdom, it will be 3.5 days after Jesus is declared King, and split the week of the days of the 7th Trumpet in half. And Satan being the 7th and primary head, is the beast that was, is not, and yet is. Jesus will abdicate the throne, and take the 144k to wait 42 months on Mount Zion.

That is what John wrote in Revelation. Nothing about a covert apostate church, with a false papacy sitting as God. Satan wants you all to think everything is in the past, and then there will be a "left behind" period of trouble, in preparation for a Second Coming. But Jesus is going to come first, and no warning will indicate any time to get ready, and that is why there is so much trouble. If people are not ready for a thief in the night, that thief will be a surprise. The longer Jesus does not return, the shorter the length of this trouble will be, and the longer the elect have to join the church. Because the time of the church is now, not after the 7th Seal is opened.

Once the 5th Seal is opened, the church will be complete, and in heaven, waiting for Jesus and the angels to gather the final harvest. And the battle of Armageddon is not that Second Coming. The Second Coming will not be announced ahead of time like the battle of Armageddon is.

Look, if you'd like to start at the beginning of the prophetic timeline and go over things, I'm happy to do it, but I can't abide such a departure from plain revelation, friend.

 

[Phoneman777]

Some of the early Church fathers also thought the "mystery of iniquity" Paul mentioned was the Roman emperor Nero, but it's not.

I think the ECFs were in a far better position than us to comment on what prevailing eschatological ideas were circulating at that time, and we all know that if they agreed with you, you'd be championing their every word - but they don't. They agree with me, that the "restrainer" was Pagan Rome.

The one doing the withholding is Archangel Michael, as the withholding idea was first mentioned at the end of Daniel 10. We are given the timing when the Antichrist is loosed by Archangel Michael in Revelation 12:7-9 for the end of this world.

Since Michael the Archangel" which means "Who is as God? Ruler of Angels" is none other than the pre-incarnate Jesus as Biblically taught by many commentators like Adam Clarke, Matthew Henry, Spurgeon, etc., wrong again. It was PAGAN ROME.

And the "mystery of iniquity" is about the very beginning of the prophesied battle between the two seeds God mentioned in Genesis 3:15,

Wrong, the "Mystery of Iniquity" is the antithesis to the "Mystery of Godliness".

The "Mystery of Godliness" is the Creator's desire to condescend and become one of His creatures - the "Mystery of Iniquity" is the inexplicable desire of the creature to exalt himself to his Creator.

HELLO! THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE PAPACY DOES - CLAIMS THE POPES ARE "JESUS CHRIST, HIDDEN UNDER VEIL OF FLESH" AND CLAIMS THE POWER TO FORGIVE SINS.

 

[Phoneman777]

You own words BETRAY YOU. You can't even get the words out of what Paul said in the 2 Thess.2:4 about the coming "man of sin" sitting in that "temple of God" exalting himself as GOD.

You're failure to answer my unanswerable argument betrays you.

How would you feel if someone referred to the home of your mother as "Whorehouse Haven"? Would that be an acceptable reference to you, or would you be ready to start throwing hands?

Yet, you expect us to believe God refers to a blasphemous "future rebuilt Jewish temple" - in which the sacrifices would be a collective Jewish middle finger in the face of God - as the "Temple of God"?

Paul most definitely WAS... pointing to THE TRADITIONAL JEWISH STONE TEMPLE in Jerusalem with that "temple of God" phrase.

Certain only in the minds of confused Jesuit Futurists like yourself.

The Sieges of Jerusalem:

The following is a complete list of the sieges :

1. By the tribe of Judah against the Jebusites, about 1443 B.C. This was some 700 years before Rome was founded. It was only partial, for in David's reign we still find the Jebusites occupying the citadel (the future Zion). The solemn words in Judg. 1:8, describing this first siege, vividly portray the after history of the city.
   
   
2. By David against the Jebusites (2Sam. 5:6-10; 1Chron. 11:4-7), about 960 B.C.
   
   
3. By Shishak king of Egypt, against Rehoboam (1Kings 14:25, 26. 2Chron. 12:2-12), about 875 B.C. To this there was only a feeble resistance; and the Temple was plundered.
   
   
4. By the Philistines, Arabians, and Ethiopians, against Jehoram (2Chron. 21:16, 17), about 794 B.C. In this siege the royal palace was sacked, and the Temple again plundered.
   
   
5. By Jehoash king of Israel, against Amaziah king of Judah (2Kings 14:13, 14), about 739 B.C. The wall was partially broken down, and the city and Temple pillaged.
   
   
6. By Rezin king of Syria, and Pekah king of Israel, against Ahaz (2Chron. 28), about 630 B.C. The city held out, but Ahaz sought the aid of Tiglath-Pileser king of Assyria, for whom he stripped the Temple.
   
   
7. By Sennacherib king of Assyria, against Hezekiah (2Kings 24:10-16), about 603 B.C. In this case the siege was raised by a Divine interposition, as foretold by Isaiah the prophet.
   
   
8. By Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, against Jehoiakim (2Chron. 36:6-7), about 496 B.C., when the Temple was partly pillaged.
   
   
9. By Nebuchadnezzar again, against Jehoiachin (2Chron. 36:10), about 489 B.C., when the pillage of the Temple was carried further, and 10,000 people carried away.
   
   
10. By Nebuchadnezzar, against Zedekiah (2Chron. 36:17-20), 478-477 B.C. In this case the Temple was burnt with fire, and the city and the Temple lay desolate for fifty years.
    
    
11. By Ptolemy Soter king of Egypt, against the Jews, 320 B.C. More that 100,000 captives were taken to Egypt.
    
    
12. By Antiochus the Great, about 203 B.C.
    
    
13. By Scopus, a general of Alexander, about 199 B.C., who left a garrison.
    
    
14. By Antiochus IV, surnamed Epiphanes, 168 B.C. This was the worst siege since the 10th. The whole city was pillaged; 10,000 captives taken; the walls destroyed; the altar defiled; ancient manuscripts perished; the finest buildings were burned; and the Jews were forbidden to worship there. Foretold Dan. 11.
    
    
15. By Antiochus V, surnamed Eupator, against Judas Maccabaeus, about 162 B.C. This time honorable terms were made, and certain privileges were secured.
    
    
16. By Antiochus VII, surnamed Sidetes king of Syria, against John Hyrcanus, about 135 B.C.
    
    
17. By Hyrcanus (son of Alex. Jannaeus) and the priest Aristobulus. The siege was raised by Scaurus, one of Pompey's lieutenants, about 65 B.C.
    
    
18. By Pompey against Aristobulus, about 63 B.C. The machines were moved on the Sabbath, when the Jews made no resistance. Only thus was it then reduced; 12,000 Jews were slain. [Antigonus, son of Aristobulus, with a Parthian army, took the city in 40 B.C.; but there was no siege, the city was taken by a sudden surprise.]
    
    
19. Herod with a Roman army besieged the city in 39 B.C. for five months.
    
    
20. By Titus, A.D. 69 (See Ap. 50. VI, p. 61). The second Temple (Herod's) was burnt, and for fifty years the city disappeared from history, as after the 10th siege (Jer. 20:5).
    
    
21. The Romans had again to besiege the city in A.D. 135 against the false Messiah, Bar-Cochebas, who had acquired possession of the ruins. The city was obliterated, and renamed AElia Capitolina, and a temple was erected to Jupiter. For 200 years the city passed out of history, no Jews being permitted to approach it. This siege was foretold in Luke 19:43, 44; 21:20-24.
    
    
22. After 400 years of so-called Christian colonization, through the country; thousands were massacred, and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was destroyed. The Emperor Heraclius afterwards defeated him, and restored the city and the church.
    
    
23. The Caliph Omar, in A.D. 636-7, besieged the city against Heralius. It was followed by capitulation on favorable terms, and the city passed into the hands of the Turks, in whose hands it remains to the present day.
    
    
24. Afdal, the Vizier of the Caliph of Egypt, besieged the two rival factions of Moslems, and pillaged the city in 1098.
    
    
25. In 1099 it was besieged by the army of the first Crusade.
    
    
26. In 1187 it was besieged by Saladin for seven weeks.
    
    
27. The wild Kharezmian Tartar hordes, in 1244, captured and plundered the city, slaughtering the monks and priests.
    
    
28. There will be a 28th according to Zech. 14, which will be raised by Messiah, even as the 7th was by Jehovah.

Antiochus is not the Little Horn, friend, no matter how much you think his pork BBQ matters:

Antiochus was nowhere near "exceeding great" over "very great" Greece or "great" MP.
Antiochus barely expanded the Seleucid border.
Antiochus ruled too early to fulfill "in the latter end of their reign" when the Little Horn rises.
Antiochus' entire army was run out of Egypt after a short occupation by a small Roman envoy.
Antiochus was ridiculed as "Epimanes" ("madman") by his contemporaries.
The Little Horn rises from the four "winds" - not "horns" - according to noun/pronoun gender agreement.
The Little Horn rises from the four "winds" - not "horns" - according to noun/pronoun antecedent rules.

The Little Horn that arose attacking laterally is Pagan Rome then transitioned vertically as Papal Rome.

 

[Earburner]

So, men who were almost 2 thousand years closer in proximity to Paul, intimately aware of the prevailing beliefs circulating at that time - are not to be trusted, but lying Jesuits should be?

No, the reason you don't trust the ECFs is because their testimony fully establishes Protestant Historicism and destroys Jesuit Futurism.

I can't believe how absolutely ignorant you are of anything except Jesuit Futurist ideas, yet you presume to argue against what you know nothing about?

All, both the ECF and the Jesuits are pharisaical in their understanding of God's word. They utilize the mind of their "natural man" (the man of sin), and not "the mind of Christ", if He was in them.
If I know anything at all on the topic, I KNOW THIS: 1 Cor. 2
[5] That YOUR faith should NOT stand in the wisdom of men, BUT IN the power [Holy Spirit] of God.

Does anyone else demand we confess sin to another sinful man as the papacy requires?

James 5[16] Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

What you call "spin" I call properly defined Greek terms.

I call your primal methodology of study to be by your "natural" mind, aka "the wisdom of men".

The Greek compound word "anti-Christos" means "for Christ" or "in place of Christ" or "in behalf of Christ" or "instead of Christ" in the same way we say "antibiotic" or "antipasta" which are substitutes for the same.

The papacy has claimed for centuries to do just that, and anyone who defines "antichrist" differently has no business teaching anyone about eschatology.

Then let it be so for your understanding towards them. It doesn't change scripture.

However, for we who do know how the word "antichrist" is specifically defined in the context of the epistles of John, the truth is that the RCC does not deny that Jesus, who was Eternal Spirit with the Father, came to us in the flesh.

Their theory about Mary is no different than the many different theories found in protestantism. It changes nothing about Jesus being born innocent of the sin of the first Adam.
1 Cor. 15[45] And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [Jesus] was made a quickening spirit.

 

[Earburner]

Antiochus is not the Little Horn, friend, no matter how much you think his pork BBQ matters:

Antiochus Epiphanes was/is the ONLY "little horn" that will ever be!!

Antiochus was nowhere near "exceeding great" over "very great" Greece or "great" MP.
Antiochus barely expanded the Seleucid border.
Antiochus ruled too early to fulfill "in the latter end of their reign" when the Little Horn rises.
Antiochus' entire army was run out of Egypt after a short occupation by a small Roman envoy.
Antiochus was ridiculed as "Epimanes" ("madman") by his contemporaries.

You misunderstand the words in the KJV, of what is symbolically revealed in Dan. 8:3-14.
You need better "wisdom" than that of what men provide you. You need the Lord's spiritual wisdom, which comes from His Holy Spirit. 1 Cor. 2
[12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
2 Cor. 10
[12] For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are NOT wise.

The Little Horn rises from the four "winds" - not "horns" - according to noun/pronoun gender agreement.

Extreme Error.

The "little horn" rose from among the "four notable ones", as they were generated from the singular "notable horn", being that of Alex the Great.

The Little Horn rises from the four "winds" - not "horns" - according to noun/pronoun antecedent rules.

Error, derived by the wisdom of men.

The Little Horn that arose attacking laterally is Pagan Rome then transitioned vertically as Papal Rome.

Error, fabricated by the wisdom of men.


KJV Dan. 8:3-14- with my [comments].
[3] Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last [2nd beast-Medio/Persia]
[4] I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward [three of four compass points]; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

[5] And as I was considering, behold, an he goat [3rd beast-Grecian] came from the west [compass point] on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes [Alex the Great].
[6] And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had there seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.
[7] And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.
[8] Therefore the he GOAT waxed** very great: and when he was strong, the great horn [Alex the Great] was broken; and for it came up four notable ones [horns- the four Hellenistic kingdoms of Greece] toward the four winds of heaven [the four compass points].

[9] And out of one of THEM [of the four notable horns/kingdoms] came forth a little horn [from the Grecian- Seleucid kingdom], which waxed** exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land [Israel]. [Three of the four compass points]
**Note: understand the meaning of the word "waxed".

[10] And it waxed** great, even to the host [army] of heaven [Israel]; and it cast down some of the host [army of Israel] and of the stars [it's captains/commanders] to the ground, and stamped upon them.
[11] Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host [Judas Maccabeus], and by him [Antiochus Epiphanes] the daily sacrifice -[Temple services] was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
[12] And an host [army] was given him [Antiochus] against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth [the servants of God through Israel] to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

[13] Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give BOTH the sanctuary and the host [army of Israel] to be trodden under foot [cast to the ground]?
[14] And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred [2300] days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed [45 days later]. Dan. 12:11-12.

Before you continue on with your extreme fabrication by "the wisdom of men", as the historicist that you claim to be, please read and study the Jewish HISTORICAL account in 1&2 Maccabees, about the "abomination that MAKETH desolate", and the prophecy concerning the "2300 days".

 

[Davy]

So, men who were almost 2 thousand years closer in proximity to Paul, intimately aware of the prevailing beliefs circulating at that time - are not to be trusted, but lying Jesuits should be?

No, the reason you don't trust the ECFs is because their testimony fully establishes Protestant Historicism and destroys Jesuit Futurism.

The fact that Jesus prophesied of the "abomination of desolation" event of Daniel 11:31 for the END of this world, and that He quoted that about 200 years after Antiochus IV had already been dead, and that with His Olivet discourse Jesus was giving the 7 main SIGNS of the end leading up to His future return, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR THEORY OF JESUIT FUTURISM.

Protestant Historicism, or just Historicism period, IS A LEAVEN DOCTRINE OF MEN, and does not stay within the parameters of Bible prophecy about the END of this world, specifically the SIGNS of the end which Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave the Church.

And what is even more telling with your PUSHING men's leaven doctrine of Historicism, is that it even DISAGREES with what the early Church fathers understood about the SIGNS of the END which Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse!

That's why I have quoted 2nd century A.D. Church father Hippolytus more than once on this forum of what he said that the coming Antichrist WILL BE JEWISH, FROM THE CIRCUMCISION he said, and... the Antichrist will erect a stone temple! What Hippolytus said about the Antichrist for the END is exactly what Lord Jesus pointed to!

So what 'religion' are YOU coming from that doesn't believe what Jesus Christ said, nor the early Church fathers, and will even go so far as to LIE about what the early Church fathers understood!?!

 

[Davy]

A "beast" is a "kingdom" - not Satan. The Papal kingdom is the Beast of Revelation 13.

You need to actually read your Bible more than letters from the seminary leaven doctrines of men. Revelation 13 teaches about TWO separate 'beast' concepts, NOT ONE.


KINGDOM BEAST (not the papacy): Not established on earth yet today.
Rev 13:1
13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
KJV


A 2nd Beast, The Antichrist For the End: the Beast KING (not a pope, for this Antichrist will work SUPERNATURAL miracles that a pope cannot do):
Rev 13:11-14
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
KJV


No one should be bother listening to you since you cannot even 'read' the Bible Scriptures accurately.

 

[Timtofly]

A "beast" is a "kingdom" - not Satan. The Papal kingdom is the Beast of Revelation 13.

The beast is history, not a kingdom. The heads are mountains, thus kingdoms.

Satan is the primary or 7th head, but the 8th kingdom. The 7th Kingdom is declared at the 7th Trumpet.

The first 5 kingdoms were destroyed by the church at the time of the Reformation, the end of the ten toes, kingdom. You can say the papacy controlled the ten toes, but the 6th kingdom of Revelation was never covered by Daniel 2, nor any other chapter.

Are you denying that the Reformation broke the yoke of the Catholic church, and the papacy?

"And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands."

The church started out as a stone at the Cross. By the time the Reformation took place it was a nation to be reckoned with. Many martyred church members died to form this mountain that covered all the earth.

You place too much emphasis on the famous reformers and the papacy, which was just a small part of the growing church world wide.

The 6th head is mortally wounded, and that is because the church prevents the full authority of a single world empire. The church did not prevent Rome from being the 4th kingdom, nor the advent of the ten toes of the 5th kingdom. But the Reformation did crush the statue bringing an end to the ten toes, 5th kingdom.

The kingdom of the stone is not one of the 7 heads of the dragon/sea beast/scarlet beast. The church is not the 6th head, mortally wounded. The stone is a nation of believers in her own rights, and Daniel pointed that out. But a nation eternal and not of this earth at all. Not made by hands, of humanity, but of God via the Holy Spirit.

My point was you and historist place too much emphasis on human theology, and that theology emphasizes the papacy in eschatology way beyond what is necessary. It is not a religion that is healed. It is humans forming a coalition government against Jesus in person after the Second Coming. Since it is Jesus as the one declared as the 7th Kingdom at the 7th Trumpet, Jesus will end the 6th kingdom just as Satan healed it. The final harvest will remove the majority of humanity if not all during the first 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders. There will not be many left to even have a 6th kingdom by the 7th Trumpet. The 8th kingdom is the gleanings left over at that time.

 

[Davy]

I think the ECFs were in a far better position than us to comment on what prevailing eschatological ideas were circulating at that time, and we all know that if they agreed with you, you'd be championing their every word - but they don't. They agree with me, that the "restrainer" was Pagan Rome.

Maybe you need to re-read the Book of Daniel again?

Dan 12:8-10
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, "O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?"
9 And he said, "Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand."
KJV

Just the fact that Gnosticsm and allegorical pagan philosophical substitutions from the Alexandria school began creeping into some areas of the early 2nd century Church, with doctrines like Amillennialism, allegorical interpretations by Origen that got him excommunicated, etc., ought to be a lesson to the Bible student that just like today, not everyone in those past centuries stayed with The Word of God as written. Even with reading old Bible commentaries like Matthew Henry, Adam Clarke, etc., one can easily see today how they actually were guessing at a lot of Bible prophecies that are very clear for today's time.

For example, I've known about the movement towards a "one world government" (their term) since the 1970's. And once I began to fathom that, I started looking for more historical evidence in the their writings. Those behind the plan didn't hide, they spoke openly about it. It's just that most people don't have the urge nor time to wade through the writings of those behind it, as most don't even like the study of history.

Ex-FBI agent in the 1940s-'50s, Cleon Skousen in his 1958 book The Naked Communist even said the Soviet Communists proposed that the main purpose for the U.N. be towards "a one world government." Such terms the globalists use, like "New World Order" to point to it, go back even further in history. Woodrow Wilson used the term in his inaugural speech. Bush did also.

It was my research into that movement which helped open my eyes to the ultimate plan for the end of this world; it was then that God began to show me what it was about within Bible prophecy in His Word. That "one world government" globalist movement is simply the 1st beast prophecy of Revelation 13:1 about the beast of ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns. And it is almost... completed today, having been in the working for many, many centuries. One could even say per God's Word, Satan's working on that plan began in God's Garden of Eden when he tempted Eve and caused her and Adam to sin.

So did the early Church fathers have a 'sense' about all this in their days? Very few of them did, and Hippolytus was one of them simply because he stayed with the actual written Bible Scripture about it involving the coming Antichrist at the end of this world.

Now today, how many Christian brethren have 'some' understanding about that "one world government" movement? I'd say the majority do, that is, the majority of brethren who actually study their Bible for themselves with God's help, and make sure to check out their teachers.

What men's leaven of Historicism does is hides Bible prophecy for the 'end' about that kind of movement.

 

[Phoneman777]

Antiochus Epiphanes was/is the ONLY "little horn" that will ever be!! You misunderstand the words in the KJV, of what is symbolically revealed in Dan. 8:3-14. You need better "wisdom" than that of what men provide you. You need the Lord's spiritual wisdom, which comes from His Holy Spirit. 1 Cor. 2
[12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
2 Cor. 10
[12] For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are NOT wise.

Please spare us the ad hominem and just stick to Scriptural points, thank you. The same sentiment toward you is held by us, but let our unanswerable arguments do the talking.

The "little horn" rose from among the "four notable ones", as they were generated from the singular "notable horn", being that of Alex the Great.

As expected, no answer except to say "fabricated":

Noun/pronoun antecedent rules demand "winds" is the object of "them" - NOT HORNS.
Noun/pronoun gender agreement demands "winds" is the object of "them" - NOT HORNS.

Before you continue on with your extreme fabrication by "the wisdom of men"

What "fabrication"? Correct analysis of Greek grammar which demands the pronoun "them" refer to "winds" instead of "horns"?

, as the historicist that you claim to be, please read and study the Jewish HISTORICAL account in 1&2 Maccabees, about the "abomination that MAKETH desolate", and the prophecy concerning the "2300 days".

You accuse me of "fabrication" but you reference the uninspired Book of Maccabees? It teaches prayers may be offered for the dead, a filthy pagan and papal doctrine!

Stick to inspired Scripture, the fabrications of men.

 

[Earburner]

Please spare us the ad hominem and just stick to Scriptural points, thank you. The same sentiment toward you is held by us, but let our unanswerable arguments do the talking.

As expected, no answer except to say "fabricated":

Noun/pronoun antecedent rules demand "winds" is the object of "them" - NOT HORNS.
Noun/pronoun gender agreement demands "winds" is the object of "them" - NOT HORNS.

What "fabrication"? Correct analysis of Greek grammar which demands the pronoun "them" refer to "winds" instead of "horns"?

You accuse me of "fabrication" but you reference the uninspired Book of Maccabees? It teaches prayers may be offered for the dead, a filthy pagan and papal doctrine!

Stick to inspired Scripture, the fabrications of men.

I provided the historical details of Dan. 8, being that of who the "little horn" was, and from where he came from. I don't see you, the self proclaimed "historicist" responding in kind, except to get bent out of shape, because I call your teachings fabrications by the wisdom of men. But, it's okay for you to keep on branding me as a "Jesuit" and a "futurist", when in fact it is I, that has provided the solid historical facts of Dan. 8 and not you.

And so there it is, the actual historical understanding of who the "little horn" WAS, and you cannot deny it, try as you may.

 

[Earburner]

You accuse me of "fabrication" but you reference the uninspired Book of Maccabees? It teaches prayers may be offered for the dead, a filthy pagan and papal doctrine!

Stick to inspired Scripture, the fabrications of men.

And I suppose the un-anointed comments by the ECF is scripture to you??
We can spar all day long about "church-ianity", or we can accept the literal FACTS about the "little horn", who desolated/destroyed the sanctuary of Israel!
Therefore, since that event did happen to Israel, it stands to reason that there would be no better reporter of that literal history, than the Jews themselves, as they declared it in 1&2 Maccabees.

Antiochus IV Epiphanes - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Edit: But if the "AoD", by the "little horn" Antiochus Epiphanes, didn't happen to Israel's sanctuary, as historically recorded by them, then they have no reason at all to celebrate Hanukkah.

Maccabean Revolt - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Unfortunately, very few have scratched the surface of WHY Jesus referenced the '"AoD" in Daniel, in the WAY that He did, saying: "When ye shall see...".
Jesus was not talking about desolating/destroying a temple building, but rather destroying "the Temple of His mortal body" (John 2:19-21).
It was the "shedding of His innocent blood" that was the "abomination". Not to the Jews, who participated in it (Mat. 27:24-25), but rather to God the Father Himself, was that "abomination" committed against. Prov. 6:17.

 

[Davy]

And I suppose the un-anointed comments by the ECF is scripture to you??
We can spar all day long about "church-ianity", or we can accept the literal FACTS about the "little horn", who desolated the sanctuary of Israel!
Therefore, since that event did happen to Israel, it stands to reason that there would be no better reporter of that literal history, than the Jews themselves, as they declared it in 1&2 Maccabees.

Unfortunately, very few have scratched the surface of WHY Jesus referenced the '"AoD" in Daniel, in the WAY that He did, saying: "When ye shall see...".
Jesus was not talking about a temple building, but rather "the Temple of His mortal body". It was the "shedding of His innocent blood" that was the "abomination". Not to the Jews, but rather to God the Father Himself, was that "abomination" committed against. Prov. 6:17.

The "abomination of desolation" prophecy which Jesus quoted as a SIGN from the Book of Daniel within... the timeframe of the very END of this world, is not difficult at all to understand. Those who claim it is only push LIES to try and get the Christian off Jesus' DIRECT POINTER TO JERUSALEM for the END, because that is where the Book of Daniel points to with that future "abomination of desolation" event.

And also, per the Book of Daniel, the "abomination of desolation" prophecy Jesus quoted INVOLVES A STANDING JEWISH STONE TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM for the END. It also involves OLD COVENANT WORSHIP re-established by the Orthodox Jews in JERUSALEM for the end.

That is what you are TRYING TO HIDE here. Tough luck. Your strategy for the deceived JEWS won't work here!

 

[Earburner]

The "abomination of desolation" prophecy which Jesus quoted as a SIGN from the Book of Daniel within... the timeframe of the very END of this world, is not difficult at all to understand. Those who claim it is only push LIES to try and get the Christian off Jesus' DIRECT POINTER TO JERUSALEM for the END, because that is where the Book of Daniel points to with that future "abomination of desolation" event.

And also, per the Book of Daniel, the "abomination of desolation" prophecy Jesus quoted INVOLVES A STANDING JEWISH STONE TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM for the END. It also involves OLD COVENANT WORSHIP re-established by the Orthodox Jews in JERUSALEM for the end.

That is what you are TRYING TO HIDE here. Tough luck. Your strategy for the deceived JEWS won't work here!

Please see my recent updated edit of the FACTUAL details in post #94.
But, you can disregard the historical facts of fulfilled prophecy, and continue on in your dream of fantasy from the "land of misfit" members of "church-ianity".

 

[Davy]

Please see my recent updated edit of the FACTUAL details in post #94.
But, you can disregard the historical facts of fulfilled prophecy, and continue on in your dream of fantasy from the "land of misfit" members of "church-ianity".

No need to see your false teaching from the Orthodox unbelieving Jews. It ain't difficult to see how you try to corrupt The New Testament Scriptures. You've been found out. You are not who you claim you are, having come here to deceive Christians.