Are Mormons Christians? (Latter Day Saints)

[TheHC]

No! We don’t need both! We are NOT saved by a book!

She didn’t say anything about being “saved by a book”!
Come on, man.
But Jesus did say this….
“This means everlasting life, that they may know You, the only true God, and of the one whom You sent forth, Jesus Christ.” — John 17:3

See the phrase, “that they may know You”?

There’s only one tangible source where that life-saving ‘knowledge’ is found:
The Bible.

Its importance is invaluable in another way, too…
Romans 15:4.

Take care, my cousin.

 

[TheHC]

Yes. I already did multiple times. We walk by faith not sight. This means knowledge is NOT the way.

What is faith based on?

Knowledge.

 

[Wrangler]

She didn’t say anything about being “saved by a book”!
Come on, man.
But Jesus did say this….
“This means everlasting life, that they may know You, the only true God, and of the one whom You sent forth, Jesus Christ.” — John 17:3

See the phrase, “that they may know You”?

There’s only one tangible source where that life-saving ‘knowledge’ is found:
The Bible.

Right, I said we are not saved by a book. People do not know the only true God by reading a book! They know the only true God by direct revelation. (That's what happened to me.) Why do you pretend only she gets to make a point? Anyone can LEARN ABOUT someone by reading a book but that was never the standard!

Nowhere does Jesus say only by reading a book can you know God.

Life saving "knowledge" is NOT found in the book but by the Spirit of God. It may not be tangible but we become witnesses, who are tangible. The book is not the body of Christ. We are. The book is not heirs to God's kingdom. We are.

I'm holding the line at salvation. There are many things that are good, including reading all kinds of books. But this is not required for salvation.

 

[Wrangler]

What is faith based on?

Knowledge.

You are confused. What faith is and what it is based on are not the same thing. A bridge is based on a firm foundation but a firm foundation is not a bridge.

I see the phrase “that they may know You”. This refers to direct experience. All one may get from a book is knowing about someone. Knowing about someone is very different from knowing that person. I read a book about George Washington. I know about George Washington. This does not mean that I know George Washington in the Biblical sense for it means having a personal relationship with that person - not merely reading about them. You are confusing the map for the territory. To truly know someone, you cannot just read about them, you must have met them in person.

We are not saved by knowledge. Our faith is an extrapolation or confident departure from knowledge. We know what we see. Therefore, the Scripture verse directly contradicts your world view. We walk by faith not sight (not knowledge).

A synonym for faith is trust. A requirement for salvation is NOT we trust our own knowledge and book understanding but distrust our knowledge, i.e., not reliance on ourselves and our knowledge. This is the Original Sin! Hence, the verse to not rely on your own understanding. This is the fatal flaw of that denomination which is not the topic of this thread.

The CJB often substitutes the word faith for trust and we are saved by putting our trust in God. for we live by trust, not by what we see ... 11 So it is with the fear of the Lord before us that we try to persuade people.
2 Corinthians 5:7...11

Notice the importance of emotion over intellect? Trust and fear complete the dependent connection with God, not intellect or knowledge. Faith is going beyond knowledge, walking, TAKING A STEP (in his name) THAT YOU DO NOT KNOW IS RIGHT is what is pleasing to God - not repeating the Original Sin.

 

[amadeus]

Right, I said we are not saved by a book. People do not know the only true God by reading a book! They know the only true God by direct revelation. (That's what happened to me.) Why do you pretend only she gets to make a point? Anyone can LEARN ABOUT someone by reading a book but that was never the standard!

Nowhere does Jesus say only by reading a book can you know God.

Life saving "knowledge" is NOT found in the book but by the Spirit of God. It may not be tangible but we become witnesses, who are tangible. The book is not the body of Christ. We are. The book is not heirs to God's kingdom. We are.

I'm holding the line at salvation. There are many things that are good, including reading all kinds of books. But this is not required for salvation.

Ec 12:12

And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

 

[marks]

Greetings friend....
But you are not thinking enough. This is very simple.
In Old Testament men took wives and that was how it was done, simple as that.
No ceremony required.

And Wedding Ceremonies being made a requirement by the Protestants in the 16th century is just history.

The fact that the phrase wedding ceremony does not occur in the scriptures is a simple fact.

I think if you look at the places were marriage and husbands and wives and such are mentioned, it's always within the context of what the specific culture considered to be the institution of a marraige.

Perhaps the clearest indication of the existance of a particular standard to be met to be considered married is when Jesus is speaking with the woman of Sychar, "you spoke well, for you have had 5 husbands, and the man you are with now is not your husband." So just "being together" didn't qualify.

"Wedding Ceremony" is something we say, but it doesn't mean that they had no standards of what is and is not a marriage. We can do the deep dive into this if you want, though it's better if you do it yourself.

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

We walk by faith not sight (not knowledge).

Ec 12:12

And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

In my devotional reading yesterday, I came across the powerful Galatians 3, titled in CEV as "Faith is the Only Way." It does not say knowledge and faith are the only 2 ways. Excerpts:

• v2: How were you given God's Spirit? Was it by (knowing and) obeying (external action) the Law of Moses or by hearing about Christ and having faith (internal action) in him?
• v6 The Scriptures say that God accepted Abraham because Abraham had faith. (Not knowledge).
• v8 Long ago the Scriptures said God would accept the Gentiles because of their faith. (Not knowledge).
• v9 This means everyone who has faith will share in the blessings given to Abraham because of his faith. (Not knowledge).
• v11 No one can please God by obeying (knowing) the Law. The Scriptures also say, “The people God accepts because of their faith will live.” (Not knowledge).
• v12 The Law isn't based on faith. (But knowledge)
• v14 This happened so that by faith we would be given the promised Holy Spirit. (Not knowledge).

Pursuit of knowledge as though it was co-equal in importance with faith is a works based theology. Clearly, those denominations that substitute the law with "knowledge" are substituting one burden with another that does not bring them closer to God. The purpose then, for putting such burden on people was and is power and control over others.

NOTE: Study note for 3:17 reads Faith in Christ is the better way. Trusting in him and not ourselves (not our knowledge) is the better way. (Emphasis added).

“I, the Lord, refuse to accept
anyone who is proud (proud in what you know).
Only those who live by faith
are acceptable to me.”
Habakkuk 2:4 (CEV) (Emphasis added)

 

[Behold]

"The belief that God is married is unique to Mormonism."

"The Mormon's five essential steps to salvation are:

faith that Christ can save from sin,

repentance for one’s sins,

immersion baptism when old enough to be accountable,

gift of the Holy Ghost through the laying on of hands by the Melchizedek priesthood immediately after baptism

and “enduring to the end”

""Mormons believe that the death of the apostles led to the death of apostolic succession and that the traditional church perpetuated a false line of apostolic succession. .. Mormons believe that there was no church on earth for 1700 years until Joseph Smith was restored with apostolic governance by God""

" The Angel Moroni's golden plates".

 

[amadeus]

In my devotional reading yesterday, I came across the powerful Galatians 3, titled in CEV as "Faith is the Only Way." It does not say knowledge and faith are the only 2 ways. Excerpts:

• v2: How were you given God's Spirit? Was it by (knowing and) obeying (external action) the Law of Moses or by hearing about Christ and having faith (internal action) in him?
• v6 The Scriptures say that God accepted Abraham because Abraham had faith. (Not knowledge).
• v8 Long ago the Scriptures said God would accept the Gentiles because of their faith. (Not knowledge).
• v9 This means everyone who has faith will share in the blessings given to Abraham because of his faith. (Not knowledge).
• v11 No one can please God by obeying (knowing) the Law. The Scriptures also say, “The people God accepts because of their faith will live.” (Not knowledge).
• v12 The Law isn't based on faith. (But knowledge)
• v14 This happened so that by faith we would be given the promised Holy Spirit. (Not knowledge).

Pursuit of knowledge as though it was co-equal in importance with faith is a works based theology. Clearly, those denominations that substitute the law with "knowledge" are substituting one burden with another that does not bring them closer to God. The purpose then, for putting such burden on people was and is power and control over others.

NOTE: Study note for 3:17 reads Faith in Christ is the better way. Trusting in him and not ourselves (not our knowledge) is the better way. (Emphasis added).

“I, the Lord, refuse to accept
anyone who is proud (proud in what you know).
Only those who live by faith
are acceptable to me.”
Habakkuk 2:4 (CEV) (Emphasis added)

And also...

Pr 1:7

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Right, I said we are not saved by a book. People do not know the only true God by reading a book! They know the only true God by direct revelation. (That's what happened to me.) Why do you pretend only she gets to make a point? Anyone can LEARN ABOUT someone by reading a book but that was never the standard!

If you have studied the only “book” that God gave to mankind, then you would know that Jesus and his disciples constantly quoted from that “book” or the portion of it that was called “God’s word” at that time.
All of it was inspired by God’s spirit.

“All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.” (2 Tim 3:16-17)
Where is there room for not relying on scripture to furnish all that we believe…and all that we practice?

The only problem with ”direct revelation” is that the source is not provable….which is why you will get so many interpretations of scripture……if all claim “direct revelation” from God and they are all different, then can you honestly expect people to choose which one is genuine? Satan is the author of confusion, not Jehovah.

Quoting from a translation that actually tells you (in brackets) what the translator thinks it means, is not direct revelation….it is reader manipulation.….designed to reinforce what they teach by leading the reader in only one direction. We have to allow scripture to speak for itself in harmony with ALL that is written by its singular Author.

Nowhere does Jesus say only by reading a book can you know God.

Reading the “book“ is not the problem Wrangler…..it’s interpreting the book that leads people astray…..the KJV has done that for centuries. We know that it is filled with errors, but are modern translations any better if they only achieve the same result? There are just as many errors in these translations, just different ones, especially when we rely on the translators to get it right. Is our faith then in the translators? If they all begin with the same erroneous assumptions, then they are going to do exactly what the KJV has done since the Reformation.

God is revealed in the personality of Jesus Christ, who said he ‘came down from heaven to do the will of the one who sent him’. He also said we had to “know” both the Father and the son if we wanted everlasting life….so if we did not read scripture and see the very image of God in his son, how would we know anything about Jesus if it‘s not for Scripture? History has scant mention of him.

Only when knowledge challenges what we want to believe is it dismissed as “not necessary”…….it’s all necessary or it would not still be here, preserved for thousands of years, and still instructing us we continue to find gems in this treasure chest, and discover new facets to the gems we already have? Knowledge is not a dirty word…..if it was, then your chosen translation would be as invalid (as a source of truth), as any other.
Their translation was based on their knowledge. So pick your scholars….that is what we are all doing.

Life saving "knowledge" is NOT found in the book but by the Spirit of God. It may not be tangible but we become witnesses, who are tangible. The book is not the body of Christ. We are. The book is not heirs to God's kingdom. We are.

Who is “we” Wrangler? Who make up “the body of Christ”? And why is there a “body” at all?
You see, that is also based on assumptions. What is the big picture for you, or anyone else who holds different beliefs? Our beliefs will not save us unless they are true. The Bible will not save us either unless God reveals his truth to one who is a genuine seeker. (John 6:44, 65) It’s invitation only….

If we get it wrong….we will be the last to know. (Matt 7:21-23) Our excuses will not save us at the judgment.
If God did not draw us to himself, we will be part of the great collective of those who love was is not true….a delusion that God will not alter if he sees no margin for improvement. (2 Thess 2:9-12)

We don’t get to choose where we serve the Creator. Heaven was never supposed to be a destination for any human. We are earth bound mortals, put here for a reason….not to train us for heaven, but to fulfill God’s first purpose for us….the very reason WHY we were created in the first place.
Only a limited number are chosen for a role in the administration of God’s kingdom in heaven, (144,000) who along with the King, will guide redeemed mankind back into reconciliation with the Creator and bring us back to his first purpose…the very reason he created humankind.

What is the big picture in your belief system, Wrangler?

I'm holding the line at salvation.

You can hold whatever you wish Wrangler…..we all can, and that’s the point of free will….by its exercise, we choose what to believe. We will be judged by what we accept and uphold as truth.

There are many things that are good, including reading all kinds of books. But this is not required for salvation.

The Bible itself argues with that statement…..but if you do not appreciate why we have a “book“ instead of direct revelation, then you cannot see why direct revelation can come from a source that is not divine, but is nonetheless very powerfully persuasive. The book itself is not divine but it’s contents are…..it’s message is unalterable even if the words are twisted…..God will have his truth declared, no matter what the devil does to interfere with Jehovah’s purpose…..it will all go ahead…with us or without us. (Isa 55:11)