Before the flood is actually "after"

[rebuilder 454]

Your summation is correct. The only error is see is not underlining everything I wrote...........LOL

Not only is the setting wrong for a mid trib (I know, I know, the new modern version is " only wrath/ trib") rapture, unless you say it is the Jewish harvest,
But you also have the one taken/left, wrong.
Both the one taken/left,of mat and Luke are 50%.
The one taken of mat 25 in the virgins, is also 50%.
All 3 passages are the main harvest/ rapture of the bride. The 50% only works in the gathering of the church.
IOW half of a particular group are taken.
Nowhere else, no other group, has that.
And note that postribbers falsely claim that group "ng is nhtaken" to be the entire planet ( wicked) taken and the righteous falsely left behind.s
( hard to imagine how postribs think the righteous are 50% of the planet, and how a righteous person shares a bed with a Satan worshipper) ***( not saying you believe any of that)***
Which is beyond ignorant and not remotely possible.

But the stragglers are beheaded after the pretrib rapture.
The only mid trib gathering is the Jews.
What seals it is the setting of peacetime, commerce, normal life, eating and drinking. None of that is going on with the Believers during the tribulation. And the other thing is the percentage of those taken is 50%. So there is a huge problem in trying to make a 50% group out of what's left there.

 

[rebuilder 454]

In your mind, what is it that leads you to believe that the church and the seed of the woman, that these are not one and the same?

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


I take it that you are drawing some of your conclusions from this verse. And if yes, one is to seriously believe the following?


which keep the commandments of God. This does not fit the church, this only fits the seed of the woman.

and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. This too does not fit the church. No one per the church at any time whatsoever, past, present, or future, could possibly have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Only the seed of the woman can have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

One thing that is pretty clear to me and has been pretty clear to me for quite some time now, is this. Pretribbers are nothing but a bunch of deceivers with their phony Pretrib rapture nonsense. Not only did Paul warn us to let no man deceive us by any means, Jesus warned us as well. Pretribbers ignore these warnings because they are among the ones attempting to deceive others with their unbiblical nonsense. No wonder they ignore these warnings. And would have us believe that the church is not even here during great tribulation, that those that have the testimony of Jesus Christ, that these are not even meaning the church. So on and so on.

You have to look at the 144k ethnic Jews and the fact they are first fruit Jews.
Factor that in.
Then factor in that Jesus returns mid trib and gathers ripe fruit. The Jews in rev14:14.
Also see ROM 11, where God eventually grafts back in the Jews. ( the catalyst being the great tribulation).
Also remember that it says Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles is complete. (Pretrib rapture).
And factor in that the tribulation period is Jacob's trouble, or Israel's trouble.
Also I'm mindful that postribbers have a huge problem with the one taken and one left behind in Matthew and Luke. Because that group taken is falsely believed to be the wicked people. That means the entire planet of the wicked are taken. Now where is the other 50%? The righteous?

So postribbers have this huge dilemma ,of the erroneously supposed wicked taken, but the righteous left behind ,and they somehow have to reconcile that there are a erroneously supposed 50% righteous and 50% Wicked on the planet. That is not even remotely possible. It seems to me in every single Arena postribbers have painted themselves in a corner once we actually open the Bible and do a study

 

[rebuilder 454]

In your mind, what is it that leads you to believe that the church and the seed of the woman, that these are not one and the same?

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


I take it that you are drawing some of your conclusions from this verse. And if yes, one is to seriously believe the following?


which keep the commandments of God. This does not fit the church, this only fits the seed of the woman.

and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. This too does not fit the church. No one per the church at any time whatsoever, past, present, or future, could possibly have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Only the seed of the woman can have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

One thing that is pretty clear to me and has been pretty clear to me for quite some time now, is this. Pretribbers are nothing but a bunch of deceivers with their phony Pretrib rapture nonsense. Not only did Paul warn us to let no man deceive us by any means, Jesus warned us as well. Pretribbers ignore these warnings because they are among the ones attempting to deceive others with their unbiblical nonsense. No wonder they ignore these warnings. And would have us believe that the church is not even here during great tribulation, that those that have the testimony of Jesus Christ, that these are not even meaning the church. So on and so on.

QUOTE
"""One thing that is pretty clear to me and has been pretty clear to me for quite some time now, is this. Pretribbers are nothing but a bunch of deceivers with their phony Pretrib rapture nonsense"""

We are not the ones claiming the return on white horses IS the rapture.( an impossibility)
We are not the ones omitting the pretrib rapture verses.
We are able to unpack rev14:14. And The virgin parable.
No postribber can unpack either of those.
None have EVER unpacked either.
We are able to read " before the flood" and understand it means " before the flood"
No postrib can go there.
We are the ones that agree, Lot is removed pre judgement.
No postrib can agree with that.

It is as if you guys have lost your minds then accuse us of being heretics.

Wow...now that is truly last days deception.

 

[rebuilder 454]

It would be more correct to say this instead---Great tribulation and the wrath of God are NOT the same thing.


But God is not the only one that has wrath. satan also has wrath, great wrath, and that his great wrath is involving great tribulation. Thus it would be more correct to say this---great tribulation and the great wrath of satan are the same thing. While great tribulation and the wrath of God are not the same thing.

Therefore, it is not entirely correct that tribulation and wrath are not the same thing.

Yes tribulation can, and does also come from God.
Heb 12
7 If[d] you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no [e]chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

 

[ScottA]

In mat 24 we see Jesus declaring his coming Is compared to The days before the flood.
I have noticed this in the postrib rapture doctrine seem to be forbidden from that verse.
My question is , does "before" mean " before" ?
Was Noah and Jesus actually trying to say "after" the judgement?

Jesus was referring to the flood not of water, but of the days of the flood of the spirit of God poured out upon all flesh beginning at Pentecost.

Which was and is to say that His return would not and is not a grand finale event at the end as most have believed, but to "each one in his own order" as Paul stated although it was upon deaf ears.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Jesus was referring to the flood not of water, but of the days of the flood of the spirit of God poured out upon all flesh beginning at Pentecost.

Which was and is to say that His return would not and is not a grand finale event at the end as most have believed, but to "each one in his own order" as Paul stated although it was upon deaf ears.

Jesus was referring to "before the flood/trib" as opposed to "after the gt".
The rapture of the church, " before the flood" ....not Pentecost.
Jesus used Lot right alongside Noah to ensure the context and meaning.
If one keeps reading ,we find those taken and left behind are The same ratio as the 10 virgins in the ones taken/ left, just a few sentences later.
So, in context, it is : Noah taken preflood, lot taken prejudgement, and half the virgins taken.
All 3 in peacetime, commerce, normal life.
All in the same thought of mat 24 , mat 25, and Luke 17.

 

[ScottA]

Jesus was referring to "before the flood/trib" as opposed to "after the gt".
The rapture of the church, " before the flood" ....not Pentecost.
Jesus used Lot right alongside Noah to ensure the context and meaning.
If one keeps reading ,we find those taken and left behind are The same ratio as the 10 virgins in the ones taken/ left, just a few sentences later.
So, in context, it is : Noah taken preflood, lot taken prejudgement, and half the virgins taken.
All 3 in peacetime, commerce, normal life.
All in the same thought of mat 24 , mat 25, and Luke 17.

I have stated what is actually true in the most concise way. Which indeed goes against the common narrative of all Christendom, which is according to the foretold "lie", as a restraint by God until the time of the end. This is the truth no longer under restraint, leading unto "all truth", also foretold.

 

[The Light]

In your mind, what is it that leads you to believe that the church and the seed of the woman, that these are not one and the same?

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

First off, I see the Church in heaven in Revelation 5. We are told in Rev. 3 that some can escape the hour of testing and that there is a door that no man can open or close.

Secondly, the woman is Israel. Her seed is the 12 tribes across the earth. A person is a Jew if their mother is Jewish. So the woman being Israel her seed is of the 12 tribes across the earth. They keep the commandments of God and will know that Jesus is the prophesied Messiah after their blindness is removed. That cannot happen until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

I take it that you are drawing some of your conclusions from this verse. And if yes, one is to seriously believe the following?


which keep the commandments of God. This does not fit the church, this only fits the seed of the woman.

and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. This too does not fit the church. No one per the church at any time whatsoever, past, present, or future, could possibly have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Only the seed of the woman can have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The Church is in heaven at this time, that is, those that are looking for His appearing. God has turned His attention to the Jew as the grain harvest is over.

One thing that is pretty clear to me and has been pretty clear to me for quite some time now, is this. Pretribbers are nothing but a bunch of deceivers with their phony Pretrib rapture nonsense.

One thing is clear to me. Those that don't realize that the fig tree has two harvests don't understand the Word of God. Its clear that they also do not the believe the Word of God because the Word tells us that we can escape ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass and stand before the Son of man. They don't believe that He is coming when we think not. There are two raptures as the fig tree has two harvests. The fathers of Israel we supposed to be the first harvest, but they served other Gods and the Gentiles are the 1st harvest.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. Why some of you think it is about the Gentile Church shows a lack of understanding.

After the Lord Himself comes for the Church at the trump of God or voice of God He will turn His attention to the Jews. The seed of the woman, the 12 tribes across the earth will have their blindness removed. Then at the 6th seal, immediately after the tribulation there will be a harvest of the 12 tribes across the earth. Why do you think there are 144,000 first fruits?
They are first fruits of the second harvest, because the 1st harvest, the rapture of the Church will have already happened.

Not only did Paul warn us to let no man deceive us by any means, Jesus warned us as well. Pretribbers ignore these warnings because they are among the ones attempting to deceive others with their unbiblical nonsense. No wonder they ignore these warnings. And would have us believe that the church is not even here during great tribulation, that those that have the testimony of Jesus Christ, that these are not even meaning the church. So on and so on.

God turns His attention to the Jews during the 70th week of Daniel. Do not be ignorant of this mystery.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Double post

 

[rebuilder 454]

I have stated what is actually true in the most concise way. Which indeed goes against the common narrative of all Christendom, which is according to the foretold "lie", as a restraint by God until the time of the end. This is the truth no longer under restraint, leading unto "all truth", also foretold.

I have reported the bible in a most accurate way.
I didn't write it.
You can do whatever with it.
I just do my Job and watch people accept what is written or go against the bible.

 

[ScottA]

I have reported the bible in a most accurate way.
I didn't write it.
You can do whatever with it.
I just do my Job and watch people accept what is written or go against the bible.

A common mistake.

What is written is not the rule, but the Spirit.

The Pharisees made the same mistake. This is round two. Most will again reject the truth, only a few will receive it.

There's still time to learn from the past.

 

[rebuilder 454]

A common mistake.

What is written is not the rule, but the Spirit.

The Pharisees made the same mistake. This is round two. Most will again reject the truth, only a few will receive it.

There's still time to learn from the past.

Never said anything about the word absent the spirit

I am saying whether a person is born again, and spirit filled or not, the word remains intact.
Spirit filled men interpret what is written in harmony and context.
If out of harmony and context, the Holy Spirit did not lead them there.

I am with you on the spirit part. 100% we agree.
I am right now talking to a Watchtower plant here on the board.
A heretic that is without the Spirit and denying the deity of Jesus.
Mentally trying to process a spiritual book.
The word void of the spirit produces some bad things.
And is on display in watchtower plants here on this board.
Several are here.

 

[Davidpt]

God turns His attention to the Jews during the 70th week of Daniel. Do not be ignorant of this mystery.

Let's look at something I brought up per Revelation 12.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


What seems rather clear to me, is this.


And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Once this happens it then leads to this.

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed

IOW, when the serpent is out making war with the remnant of her seed, the woman herself, she is no longer being subject to the face of the serpent. Obviously, verse 17 is involving the 42 month reign of the beast when the remnant of her seed are being persecuted, made war against. Per this scenerio, who are you proposing is meaning the Jews God turns His attention to during the 70th week?

the woman during great tribulation---she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The remnant of her seed during great tribulation---make war with

Clearly, verse 17 and this---went to make war with---matches this in Revelation 13---and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months(a time, and times, and half a time)(verse 5)---and it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them(verse 7)

Unbelieving Jews would not have the testimony of Jesus Christ. That is total nonsense. Verse 17 tells us that the remnant of her seed, these are the ones that have the testimony of Jesus Christ. And that the woman became untouchable by the serpent(verse 14), and that making the dragon wroth, he instead focuses his attention on someone still touchable, the remnant of her seed, which have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Obviously meaning they already have the testimony of Jesus Christ before he sets out to make war with them.

Pretrib makes zero sense here since someone has to fit this-- have the testimony of Jesus Christ--and that it can't be meaning unbelieving Jews.

 

[ScottA]

Never said anything about the word absent the spirit

I am saying whether a person is born again, and spirit filled or not, the word remains intact.
Spirit filled men interpret what is written in harmony and context.
If out of harmony and context, the Holy Spirit did not lead them there.

I am with you on the spirit part. 100% we agree.
I am right now talking to a Watchtower plant here on the board.
A heretic that is without the Spirit and denying the deity of Jesus.
Mentally trying to process a spiritual book.
The word void of the spirit produces some bad things.
And is on display in watchtower plants here on this board.
Several are here.

Good, thanks for the explanation.

What I was referring to is the issue of interpretation that most have not known to exist. Which is the restraint of only seeing dimly made by God until the time of the end, and the finished truth of the mystery of God only to be available when the seventh angel is about to sound. It was by that same spirit that I addressed the thread topic question.

That time foretold and time no longer has now come. Until now even the best servants of God (even Christ) have been under restraint.

 

[Davidpt]

The 42 months that Satan is allowed is neither God's wrath

At least we agree about that.

nor any tribulation or persecution of any church redeemed

But we are not in agreement about this as well.

--------------------------------


As to the verses below, what I have underlined should speak for themselves, thus no commentary needed. But even so, I guess I better add some commentary, regardless.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed , which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ


Revelation 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation , and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Take this verse for instance. Is one going to argue that John is not part of the church? Thus, what I have underlined has nothing to do with the church? Pretribbers might argue, what point am I trying to make here? The time frame involving verse 9 is not the same time frame involving Revelation 12:17.

Maybe that is true, maybe it isn't, but one thing that is undeniably true though, both Revelation 1:9 and Revelation 12:17 involve being persecuted for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Clearly, no unbelieving Jews in the past nor in the future, could possibly be being persecuted for having the testimony of Jesus Christ. When John was being persecuted in his day and time for having the testimony of Jesus Christ, he was not an unbelieving Jew at the time. He was a member of the body of Christ, he was a member of the church. Are Pretribbers going to dispute those facts?

It is ludicrous to think, that in John's day, to have the testimony of Jesus Christ, this makes you of the church and a target of the enemy, but in the 21st century though, anyone that has the testimony of Jesus Christ, these are not even of the church. After all, how can they be, right? When Revelation 12:17 is meaning, the church is no longer present on the earth, it has been raptured to heaven instead. Some of you must think some of the rest of us were born yesterday or something, if you expect us to make sense of this nonsense and then agree with it on top of that.

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus : worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Seriously, this verse should be understood like this instead?---I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren, the unbelieving Jews, that have the testimony of Jesus

Rather than like this?-----I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren, the body of Christ, thus the church, that have the testimony of Jesus

 

[Timtofly]

At least we agree about that.





But we are not in agreement about this as well.

--------------------------------


As to the verses below, what I have underlined should speak for themselves, thus no commentary needed. But even so, I guess I better add some commentary, regardless.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed , which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ


Revelation 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation , and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Take this verse for instance. Is one going to argue that John is not part of the church? Thus, what I have underlined has nothing to do with the church? Pretribbers might argue, what point am I trying to make here? The time frame involving verse 9 is not the same time frame involving Revelation 12:17.

Maybe that is true, maybe it isn't, but one thing that is undeniably true though, both Revelation 1:9 and Revelation 12:17 involve being persecuted for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Clearly, no unbelieving Jews in the past nor in the future, could possibly be being persecuted for having the testimony of Jesus Christ. When John was being persecuted in his day and time for having the testimony of Jesus Christ, he was not an unbelieving Jew at the time. He was a member of the body of Christ, he was a member of the church. Are Pretribbers going to dispute those facts?

It is ludicrous to think, that in John's day, to have the testimony of Jesus Christ, this makes you of the church and a target of the enemy, but in the 21st century though, anyone that has the testimony of Jesus Christ, these are not even of the church. After all, how can they be, right? When Revelation 12:17 is meaning, the church is no longer present on the earth, it has been raptured to heaven instead. Some of you must think some of the rest of us were born yesterday or something, if you expect us to make sense of this nonsense and then agree with it on top of that.

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus : worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Seriously, this verse should be understood like this instead?---I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren, the unbelieving Jews, that have the testimony of Jesus

Rather than like this?-----I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren, the body of Christ, thus the church, that have the testimony of Jesus

Because the church has been in Paradise since the Cross. And will remain in Paradise until the New Jerusalem descends after the Day of the Lord.

The OT redeemed did not return to the earth, and lived without dying, here with us on the earth since the Cross. They have been living everlasting life in Paradise.

This world is not our home, nor ever will be. The world will be the home of those Second Coming, final harvest, of Adam's offspring.

The 144k will live on the earth with Jesus during the Day of the Lord. The sheep and wheat harvest will live on the earth for the entire Day of the Lord. They will never be the church in Paradise.

Those on earth will live with the church on the earth in the NHNE as written in Revelation 21. But for the remainder of this creation and reality, the church remains in Paradise. The final harvest including the 144k will live on the earth the entire time.

The Second Coming changes everything again like the Cross changed everything between the OT and the NT. Would you say the church as we have known it for 1994 years is exactly the same as the Law economy of the OT? The redeemed are brethren based on election out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. But the Gospel is not the same as the Law. Neither the OT Law nor the Gospel will be relevant in the Day of the Lord. So how people use the term church today only applies to the fulness of the Gentiles.

That is why some call the church Israel, no? They want to carry on the OT terminology into the NT. But no one lives under the Israel that was defined by the blood of animal sacrifices.

 

[The Light]

Unbelieving Jews would not have the testimony of Jesus Christ. That is total nonsense.

The Word says nothing about unbelieving Jews. These are your words and your incorrect conclusion.

As I showed you in Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

These are believing Jews as their blindness is removed when the fullness of the Gentiles come in.

Verse 17 tells us that the remnant of her seed, these are the ones that have the testimony of Jesus Christ. And that the woman became untouchable by the serpent(verse 14), and that making the dragon wroth, he instead focuses his attention on someone still touchable, the remnant of her seed, which have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Obviously meaning they already have the testimony of Jesus Christ before he sets out to make war with them.

Pretrib makes zero sense here since someone has to fit this-- have the testimony of Jesus Christ--and that it can't be meaning unbelieving Jews.

You keep talking about unbelieving Jews. These are believing Jews. Do you think that the 70th week of Daniel is about the Gentiles. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel

Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most
Holy.

The Jews will become jealous when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Romans 11
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

When the Lord comes for His Church before the Tribulation what will the Jews say.

Jeremiah 8
20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

The Jews missed the first harvest and then have their blindness removed. They are then raptured at the 6th seal which is the harvest of Revelation 14.

And here is the proof that it is Jews that are in the second harvest.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Those in the harvest of Revelation 14 are singing the song of Moses. They are Jews......................................................................that keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Why do you think there are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes? If the first fruits are of the 12 tribes, the harvest will be of the 12 tribes

 

[Davy]

Yes we know there is a gathering AFTER THE GT.
Thank you for pointing out 1 of 3 gatherings.

You just LIED against God's Word with your 2nd statement above.

There is only a ONE time of gathering of Christ's Church written of in God's Word. Just because that single-gathering event of the Church is written of in several Bible Scriptures does not... mean each mention is a NEW gathering event! That's STUPIDITY!

You know, a LIAR could even do that with each time that a different Title for GOD is written in The Bible, and try to say each one is about a DIFFERENT GOD! That's how STUPID you idea is! Your only consolation is that YOU didn't come up with that stupid idea, I've heard it before from other deceived believers on man's false pre-trib rapture theory leaven doctrines.

I truly am amazed at how totally ignorant deceived brethren on man's false Pre-trib Rapture lie can be with being tricked by charlatans who lie against the simplicity of Bible Scripture.

 

[Davidpt]

The Word says nothing about unbelieving Jews. These are your words and your incorrect conclusion.

As I showed you in Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

These are believing Jews as their blindness is removed when the fullness of the Gentiles come in.



You keep talking about unbelieving Jews. These are believing Jews. Do you think that the 70th week of Daniel is about the Gentiles. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel

Hold on there. If one is insisting that the church is removed so that God can once again deal with the Jews, it obviously makes zero sense per that scenario to take these Jews to be meaning believing Jews rather than unbelieving Jews. Everyone knows, or should know if they don't, that believing Jews equal Christians, thus are part of the church. Therefore, assuming a Pretrib rapture, believing Jews are not going to get left behind, they are going to get raptured as well. And who does that leave remaining, pertaining to Jews? Does it not leave unbelieving Jews remaining?

Therefore, the logical conclusion would be, per a Pretrib scenario, the seed of the woman are intially unbelieving Jews since believing Jews would have been raptured with believing Gentiles, since it would be silly to think only believing Gentiles are part of the church, but not believing Jews as well.

It is then a question of, if the church is removed, thus leaving unbelieving Jews being the ones being made war with per Revelation 12:17, how did they all of a sudden like end up having the testimony of Jesus Christ, thus making them targets of the enemy? One moment they are unbelieving Jews, thus why they get left behind, assuming a Pretrib scenario, then the next minute they are believing Jews, thus are targets of the enemy. How did they go from unbelieving Jews to believing Jews all of a sudden like?

Even if we factor in Ezekiel 38-39, the house of Isreal meant, the ones God is hiding His face from, they don't become believers until God executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude first. Revelation 12:17 couldn't possibly be meaning after God has executed His judgment on Gog and his multitude. When the remnant of the seed of the woman are being warred against, God has not at that time already executed His judgment on Gog and his multitude. He does that during the vials of wrath. The vials of wrath are at the end of the saints per Revelation 12:17 being made warred against. The vials of wrath as far as I can tell fit during the period of time involving Matthew 24:29, placing these vials post trib. When they(these pertaining to Revelation 12:17) are being made war against though, that is meaning during great tribulation.

 

[The Light]

Hold on there. If one is insisting that the church is removed so that God can once again deal with the Jews, it obviously makes zero sense per that scenario to take these Jews to be meaning believing Jews rather than unbelieving Jews. Everyone knows, or should know if they don't, that believing Jews equal Christians, thus are part of the church. Therefore, assuming a Pretrib rapture, believing Jews are not going to get left behind, they are going to get raptured as well. And who does that leave remaining, pertaining to Jews? Does it not leave unbelieving Jews remaining?

Therefore, the logical conclusion would be, per a Pretrib scenario, the seed of the woman are intially unbelieving Jews since believing Jews would have been raptured with believing Gentiles, since it would be silly to think only believing Gentiles are part of the church, but not believing Jews as well.

Obviously, they are believing Jews as after the Church is raptured............before the tribulation..........the Jews have their blindness removed.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

It is then a question of, if the church is removed, thus leaving unbelieving Jews being the ones being made war with per Revelation 12:17, how did they all of a sudden like end up having the testimony of Jesus Christ, thus making them targets of the enemy? One moment they are unbelieving Jews, thus why they get left behind, assuming a Pretrib scenario, then the next minute they are believing Jews, thus are targets of the enemy. How did they go from unbelieving Jews to believing Jews all of a sudden like?

Obviously, they are believing Jews as after the Church is raptured............before the tribulation..........the Jews have their blindness removed.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Even if we factor in Ezekiel 38-39, the house of Isreal meant, the ones God is hiding His face from, they don't become believers until God executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude first. Revelation 12:17 couldn't possibly be meaning after God has executed His judgment on Gog and his multitude.

Gog/Magog does not happen until after the 1000 years

Revelation 20
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

When the remnant of the seed of the woman are being warred against, God has not at that time already executed His judgment on Gog and his multitude. He does that during the vials of wrath. The vials of wrath are at the end of the saints per Revelation 12:17 being made warred against. The vials of wrath as far as I can tell fit during the period of time involving Matthew 24:29, placing these vials post trib. When they(these pertaining to Revelation 12:17) are being made war against though, that is meaning during great tribulation.

Satan goes after the remnant of the woman, Israel seed. The seed of the woman is the 12 tribes across the earth. Gog Magog happens after the 1000 year.

The days are cut short and the second rapture which is the gathering from heaven and earth, happens immediately after the tribulation, and BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD BEGINS.

Those singing the song of Moses are raptured from the earth and are found in heaven before the throne in Rev 15. This is why there are 144,000 first fruits from the twelve tribes as there is a rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth at the 6th seal.