SALVATION OF ANIMALS

[DJT_47]

There are no commas in the original manuscript. You can't blame God for where men put the wrong comma.

I suggest you look at ALL translations and count how any have a comma or similar pause placed before the word "today". I also suggest you take off your shoes so you have enough digits to count on, and that still won't e enough!

And, irregardless if there were no commas in the original manuscripts, it doesn't matter because of the other point I made; it would have been totally unnecessary and redundant for the Lord ti have emphasized tge fact that he, while hanging on a cross, speaking to another person likewise hanging on a cross next to him, that it was "today" that he was speaking to him! That's a dumb summation. Go read it again and do some research.

 

[Peterlag]

I suggest you look at ALL translations and count how any have a comma or similar pause placed before the word "today". I also suggest you take off your shoes so you have enough digits to count on, and that still won't e enough!

And, irregardless if there were no commas in the original manuscripts, it doesn't matter because of the other point I made; it would have been totally unnecessary and redundant for the Lord ti have emphasized tge fact that he, while hanging on a cross, speaking to another person likewise hanging on a cross next to him, that it was "today" that he was speaking to him! That's a dumb summation. Go read it again and do some research.

Paradise would have to be available for the guy on the cross to go there and it was not nor is it available today. So Jesus could not have gotten the guy there because it's not set up yet. All who have died are still dead waiting for the return of Christ who will get them up when he returns.

 

[keithr]

I suggest you look at ALL translations and count how any have a comma or similar pause placed before the word "today". I also suggest you take off your shoes so you have enough digits to count on, and that still won't e enough!

Nevertheless, I can find two translations that translate Luke 23:43 differently:

1865 Diaglot NT:

And said to him the Jesus: Indeed I say to thee to-day, with me thou shalt be in the Paradise.​

Translation from Aramaic, Lamsa Bible:

Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.​

 

[DJT_47]

Paradise would have to be available for the guy on the cross to go there and it was not nor is it available today. So Jesus could not have gotten the guy there because it's not set up yet. All who have died are still dead waiting for the return of Christ who will get them up when he returns.

Believe what you like, but the scriptures are clear. Paradise = the third heaven which is there now. Goodbye

 

[keithr]

Believe what you like, but the scriptures are clear. Paradise = the third heaven which is there now. Goodbye

But Jesus did not go there on the day that he was crucified, so he could not have been there with the thief that day. Matthew 12:39-40 (WEB):

(39) But he answered them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, but no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet.​

(40) For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.​

For three days and nights after his death, Jesus was in the grave. As Peter explained, Acts 2:31 (WEB):

(31) he {David} foreseeing this spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that his soul wasn’t left in Hades, and his flesh didn’t see decay.​

beacause after the three days God resurrected Jesus - until then his soul was in Hades (sheol, the grave).

 

[DJT_47]

But Jesus did not go there on the day that he was crucified, so he could not have been there with the thief that day. Matthew 12:39-40 (WEB):

(39) But he answered them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, but no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet.​

(40) For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.​

For three days and nights after his death, Jesus was in the grave. As Peter explained, Acts 2:31 (WEB):

(31) he {David} foreseeing this spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that his soul wasn’t left in Hades, and his flesh didn’t see decay.​

beacause after the three days God resurrected Jesus - until then his soul was in Hades (sheol, the grave).

You speak as though you were there witnessing what happened; you weren't. I'll trust what the scripture says and it says, in Jesus own words, that he would be in paradise on that very day.

 

[keithr]

I'll trust what the scripture says and it says, in Jesus own words, that he would be in paradise on that very day.

In order to be sure that you are believing the truth of God's word, you have to interpret it such that there is no conflict of undestanding with other verses. If there seems to be a conflict then you should realise that is most likely because you are misunderstanding one or more verses of the Scriptures, whether that is your misunderstanding or whether it is due to a poor translation of the Scriptures. Honestly seek the truth and you will find it.

Matthew 7:7-8 (WEB):

(7) “Ask, and it will be given you. Seek, and you will find. Knock, and it will be opened for you.​

(8) For everyone who asks receives. He who seeks finds. To him who knocks it will be opened.​

 

[DJT_47]

In order to be sure that you are believing the truth of God's word, you have to interpret it such that there is no conflict of undestanding with other verses. If there seems to be a conflict then you should realise that is most likely because you are misunderstanding one or more verses of the Scriptures, whether that is your misunderstanding or whether it is due to a poor translation of the Scriptures. Honestly seek the truth and you will find it.

Matthew 7:7-8 (WEB):

(7) “Ask, and it will be given you. Seek, and you will find. Knock, and it will be opened for you.​

(8) For everyone who asks receives. He who seeks finds. To him who knocks it will be opened.​

There's nothing to "interpret"; just read the words, they are explicit. And scripture for sure can't and doesn't conflict with scripture.

 

[Peterlag]

Believe what you like, but the scriptures are clear. Paradise = the third heaven which is there now. Goodbye

I can find two translations that translate Luke 23:43 differently:

1865 Diaglot NT:
And said to him the Jesus: Indeed I say to thee to-day, with me thou shalt be in the Paradise.

Translation from Aramaic, Lamsa Bible:
Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.

The above is brought to you by @keithr

 

[DJT_47]

I can find two translations that translate Luke 23:43 differently:

1865 Diaglot NT:
And said to him the Jesus: Indeed I say to thee to-day, with me thou shalt be in the Paradise.

Translation from Aramaic, Lamsa Bible:
Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.

The above is brought to you by @keithr

What about the 30 that say otherwise? And as I stated previously, that makes no sense ! If that were the case, the word "today" would be unnecessary and redundant. That's like me saying talking to you right now, "I'm telling you TODAY that you're wrong", ( which you are). Why, if we were speaking in real time, would the word today be used or necessary to describe what we both know is happening right now?? It would be stupid. Keep looking, you might find another dumb translation that agrees with you, placing a comma where it isn't meant to be, in an attempt to alter the meaning.

 

[keithr]

as I stated previously, that makes no sense ! If that were the case, the word "today" would be unnecessary and redundant. That's like me saying talking to you right now, "I'm telling you TODAY that you're wrong", ( which you are). Why, if we were speaking in real time, would the word today be used or necessary to describe what we both know is happening right now?? It would be stupid. Keep looking, you might find another dumb translation that agrees with you, placing a comma where it isn't meant to be, in an attempt to alter the meaning.

Read it more carefully, in the context of the request made by the thief - Luke 23:42-43 (WEB):

(42) He said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom.”​

(43) Jesus said to him, “Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”​

The thief asked Jesus to remember him, when Jesus established his kingdom, some time in the future. But Jesus, rather than waiting until he comes back to establish his kingdom on the earth, or just promising to remember him, assures him by saying, to paraphrase, "I confirm today, you will be with me in paradise, after paradise is created".

Adam and Eve lived briefly in a paradise, but the new paradise on the (whole) earth is still future - Acts 3:19-21 (WEB):

(19) “Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, so that there may come times of refreshing from the presence of the Lord,​

(20) and that he may send Christ Jesus, who was ordained for you before,​

(21) whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God spoke long ago by the mouth of his holy prophets.​

The "times of restoration" of the earth to be a paradise again is yet to come, after, or when, Jesus establishes God's kingdom on the earth.

 

[DJT_47]

Read it more carefully, in the context of the request made by the thief - Luke 23:42-43 (WEB):

(42) He said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom.”​

(43) Jesus said to him, “Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”​

The thief asked Jesus to remember him, when Jesus established his kingdom, some time in the future. But Jesus, rather than waiting until he comes back to establish his kingdom on the earth, or just promising to remember him, assures him by saying, to paraphrase, "I confirm today, you will be with me in paradise, after paradise is created".

Adam and Eve lived briefly in a paradise, but the new paradise on the (whole) earth is still future - Acts 3:19-21 (WEB):

(19) “Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, so that there may come times of refreshing from the presence of the Lord,​

(20) and that he may send Christ Jesus, who was ordained for you before,​

(21) whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God spoke long ago by the mouth of his holy prophets.​

The "times of restoration" of the earth to be a paradise again is yet to come, after, or when, Jesus establishes God's kingdom on the earth.

The NT covenant had not yet been established until the Lord's death (Hebrews 9:16). At that time, Jesus came into his kingdom, his heavenly kingdom, with his earthly kingdom, the church, soon to follow (Acts 2). And once again, paradise equates or equated to the 3rd heaven, which already existed at the time of Jesus crucifixion.

 

[keithr]

The NT covenant had not yet been established until the Lord's death (Hebrews 9:16). At that time, Jesus came into his kingdom, his heavenly kingdom, with his earthly kingdom, the church, soon to follow (Acts 2). And once again, paradise equates or equated to the 3rd heaven, which already existed at the time of Jesus crucifixion.

Once again, Jesus did not go to heaven on the day that he was crucified, and Jesus never lied so he would not have said, or meant, that the thief would be with Jesus in heaven that very day. Jesus was dead for three days:

Luke 24:46 (WEB):

(46) He {Jesus} said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day,​

1 Corinthians 15:3-4 (WEB):

(3) For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,​

(4) that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,​

Jesus did not ascend to heaven until many days later. Three days later Jesus told Mary, John 20:17 (WEB):

(17) Jesus said to her, “Don’t hold me, for I haven’t yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”​

There is no indication that the thief on the cross was a begotten again Christian, so he could not go to heaven. Therefore the paradise that Jesus was referring to was the coming paradise on the earth, when Jesus returns and establishes his kingdom on the earth. It is not here now (obviously!), which is why Jesus taught us to pray, and Christians still pray, Matthew 6:10 (WEB):

(10) Let your Kingdom come. Let your will be done, as in heaven, so on earth.​

 

[DJT_47]

Once again, Jesus did not go to heaven on the day that he was crucified, and Jesus never lied so he would not have said, or meant, that the thief would be with Jesus in heaven that very day. Jesus was dead for three days:

Luke 24:46 (WEB):

(46) He {Jesus} said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day,​

1 Corinthians 15:3-4 (WEB):

(3) For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,​

(4) that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,​

Jesus did not ascend to heaven until many days later. Three days later Jesus told Mary, John 20:17 (WEB):

(17) Jesus said to her, “Don’t hold me, for I haven’t yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”​

There is no indication that the thief on the cross was a begotten again Christian, so he could not go to heaven. Therefore the paradise that Jesus was referring to was the coming paradise on the earth, when Jesus returns and establishes his kingdom on the earth. It is not here now (obviously!), which is why Jesus taught us to pray, and Christians still pray, Matthew 6:10 (WEB):

(10) Let your Kingdom come. Let your will be done, as in heaven, so on earth.​

If the Lord forgave the thief, meaning his sins were forgiven, as he did others, why would he not be in paradise with the Lord as was promised if his sins were forgiven and he sinned no more in that short period he lived afterwards? And, if the Lord said he himself would be in paradise that day, as the scripture says, how is it that you can say emphatically that the Lord didn't go to paradise? Something is wrong with your reading and understanding as it conflicts with the clear words of scripture. The Lord wasn't yet resurrected, so granted, he didn't go anywhere bodily, but that doesn't mean he was not still a conscious being. The Lord was also a living soul which consciousnes (the soul) continues after death.

 

[keithr]

If the Lord forgave the thief, meaning his sins were forgiven,

The Bible does not say that Jesus forgave the thief. When Jesus said, Luke 23:34 (WEB):

(34) Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they don’t know what they are doing.” Dividing his garments among them, they cast lots.​

he was not referring to the two thieves!

how is it that you can say emphatically that the Lord didn't go to paradise? Something is wrong with your reading and understanding as it conflicts with the clear words of scripture.

The clear words of Jesus - Matthew 12:40 (WEB):

(40) For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.​

The Lord wasn't yet resurrected, so granted, he didn't go anywhere bodily, but that doesn't mean he was not still a conscious being.

Being dead means that you are not concsious. Jesus was dead for three days.

The Lord was also a living soul which consciousnes (the soul) continues after death.

We have no thoughts while we are dead - Psalms 146:4 (WEB):

(4) His spirit departs, and he returns to the earth. In that very day, his thoughts perish.​

The punishment for sin is death, but you make it sound like no punishment at all!

 

[DJT_47]

The Bible does not say that Jesus forgave the thief. When Jesus said, Luke 23:34 (WEB):

(34) Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they don’t know what they are doing.” Dividing his garments among them, they cast lots.​

he was not referring to the two thieves!


The clear words of Jesus - Matthew 12:40 (WEB):

(40) For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.​

Being dead means that you are not concsious. Jesus was dead for three days.


We have no thoughts while we are dead - Psalms 146:4 (WEB):

(4) His spirit departs, and he returns to the earth. In that very day, his thoughts perish.​

The punishment for sin is death, but you make it sound like no punishment at all!

It was implied that the thief was forgiven. Why else and how else would Jesus promise him to be in paradise with him?

Abd the analogy in reference to Jonah was likened to his physical, unraised body.

And yes, the spirit returns to God and tge body to the earth, but don't confuse the spirit with the soul; the spirit and the soul are two different things since the bible says they can be divided (Hebrews 4:12)

And the two references, this one a d Lazarus and the rich man, as well as the transfiguration is indication that consciousness continues after death.