TULIP an open discussion

[CadyandZoe]

In John 6:40, Lord Jesus does identify "who" the "all" are whom the Father gives to the Son, which Lord Jesus identifies as "whoever believes."

Right. Jesus tells us what made the difference between those who believed him and those who didn't. The reason why some believed while others didn't believe is because the Father gave them to Jesus. He isn't saying that the Father gave them to Jesus because they believed. He is saying that they believed because the Father gave them to Jesus.

A = Father gives people to Jesus.
B = They believe

A causes B.

The "Parable of the Sower" teaches us that some hearts are prepared to believe more so than others. This parable teaches nothing about regeneration, or anything about those who were born again elect Christians but later resisted the Holy Spirit and fell away, but other Passages do.

On the contrary, the parable depicts a farmer casting seed to the ground. Only one type of soil produces a crop: cultivated soil. Jesus explains the meaning of cultivated soil: "But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance."

All we need to do is remember who cultivates the soil. The farmer cultivates the soil, preparing the soil to receive the seed. Likewise, just as the farmer prepares the soil to receive the seed, the Father prepares the heart of those chosen to receive the word, believe it, and remain in belief.

This illustrates Jesus' teaching about how the Father gives people to Jesus. He prepares their hearts so that they will believe the word, and never fall away.

Those who were in "The Faith" can fall away from "The Faith" by not remaining in "The Faith."

Of course, the parable of the sower illustrates this point. Nonetheless, as Jesus taught, the Father prepares the heart such that a person will always believe and never fall away.

Paul, who was in "The Faith" offered no security for his Faith, even though he was an Apostle.

Paul taught that if God pours out his spirit into the heart of someone, that person's hope for eternal life will never be disappointed.

Many born again Christians will not remain in the Faith of the Gospel;

This is incorrect. According to Peter, all those who have been born again to a living hope will be glorified and receive eternal life at the return of Christ.

Nothing is stated in "John 6:37-40" that "God supplies the prerequisite."

Nothing in those passages refutes it either.

That is all in your imagination. There is not one Scripture that states that God creates faith to be saved in some by the indwelling Spirit and not others.

It's right there in black and white.

The Spiritual rebirth is by the indwelling Spirit (Romans 8:9-10), and is only received by first believing, according to God's Word.

This is also incorrect. According to Jesus, if the Father prepares the heart of a person, that individual will believe and never fall away.

We don't pass out of spiritual death onto spiritual life so we can believe, but because we do believe.

You have reversed cause and effect. Remember, A -->> B. The Father prepares the heart then a person believes and perseveres.

No such Scripture.

The scripture under discussion is John 6.

Why don't you provide a Scripture that states that "rebirth" is necessary for one to accept the fact that Jesus is the Messiah? Go ahead and give the verse if you can find it.

I have given you the scriptures. Please review them again.

Romans 5:5 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Under what condition does our hope not disappoint us? We will never fail to arrive at eternal life IF the Spirit of God has been poured out into our hearts.

1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

According to Peter, under what conditions does God guarantee a person will attain eternal life? (1 his great mercy, 2) born again, 3) resurrection of Jesus Christ, 4) protected by the power of God.

According to John 6, the Father gives some people to Jesus. According to John 3, these people are born again. According to John 1, these people are born not of man but of God.

I repeatedly gave you many Scriptures that plainly state that we receive the Spirit, and life by the Spirit, by our faith.

It seems like your understanding of these passages is not accurate. The phrase "by faith" is used in contrast to "by works of the law". The main difference between these two concepts is that faith is an inward characteristic while works of the law are outward actions. Faith is a quality of the inner self, while works of the law are related to the outer self. We have seen several passages where the Father's access to the inner self is highlighted and those with the proper inner self are marked as those who will receive eternal life.

The inward man is the true marker of those who are being saved by God because the outward man can be faked.

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

God is the one who is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And one way he judges my heart is to preach a word of promise to me and see how I respond to it. (Hebrews 4:12) He is the one who cultivates a heart, preparing it to believe Jesus and remain a believer. And if the Father is at work in the inner self, that person will never fall away and that one will attain eternal life.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I have no problem at all with God hardening a person's heart in judgment because they continually refused His grace. That is righteous of God to do so.

Let's put aside the fact that your position is incomprehensible for the moment and examine your take on "hardening."

So, are you comfortable with the idea that God violates human freedom? Are you okay with the idea that God forecloses on a person's right to choose otherwise? Interesting.

Let's look at this more carefully. We can imagine that before Jesus came, the state of his people was a mixed bag. Some of them had hard hearts, while others didn't. As soon as Jesus arrives on the scene, God hardens those who have hardened themselves so that they will not receive the gospel so as to be saved.

Are you okay with that?

They had a prior choice, otherwise God would not have been patient with them telling them to repent.

Don't you understand? If you believe in free will, you believe that people have a choice in what they do and that their actions have not been decided in advance by God or by any other power. When God hardens a heart, he has decided to foreclose on human freedom. He prevents that person from repenting.

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared/fitted/adjusted [2675 katartízō] for destruction,

God is the subject of the action. We don't prepare ourselves.

As anyone can see, God is patient with the wicked, admonishing the sinners to repent (purges himself from these), which plainly shows that the vessels had a prior choice.

Not if they were hardened.

God endured with much patience, but the choice is still up to the sinner to repent. God does not repent for them.

Once they are hardened, repentance is not an option for them.

God himself is reasoning with the Jews, giving them a choice to repent, so he can form them into vessels of honor.

You have the wrong picture.
Your picture:
A woman goes to the store to buy a pot suitable for growing house plants. She PICKS a pot from among all the available pots.

Paul's picture:
A woman shapes clay on a pottery wheel to create a pot for a specific purpose.

The idea that God waits for us to repent so that he can choose us is like the woman who selects a pot from among all the available pots. However, the idea that God cultivates a heart that will believe Jesus' word and never give up is like the woman who shapes clay on a pottery wheel to create someone to grant his mercy and blessing.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Right. Jesus tells us what made the difference between those who believed him and those who didn't. The reason why some believed while others didn't believe is because the Father gave them to Jesus. He isn't saying that the Father gave them to Jesus because they believed. He is saying that they believed because the Father gave them to Jesus.

A = Father gives people to Jesus.
B = They believe

A causes B.

On the contrary, the parable depicts a farmer casting seed to the ground. Only one type of soil produces a crop: cultivated soil. Jesus explains the meaning of cultivated soil: "But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance."

All we need to do is remember who cultivates the soil. The farmer cultivates the soil, preparing the soil to receive the seed. Likewise, just as the farmer prepares the soil to receive the seed, the Father prepares the heart of those chosen to receive the word, believe it, and remain in belief.

This illustrates Jesus' teaching about how the Father gives people to Jesus. He prepares their hearts so that they will believe the word, and never fall away.

Of course, the parable of the sower illustrates this point. Nonetheless, as Jesus taught, the Father prepares the heart such that a person will always believe and never fall away.

Paul taught that if God pours out his spirit into the heart of someone, that person's hope for eternal life will never be disappointed.

This is incorrect. According to Peter, all those who have been born again to a living hope will be glorified and receive eternal life at the return of Christ.

Nothing in those passages refutes it either.

It's right there in black and white.

This is also incorrect. According to Jesus, if the Father prepares the heart of a person, that individual will believe and never fall away.

You have reversed cause and effect. Remember, A -->> B. The Father prepares the heart then a person believes and perseveres.

The scripture under discussion is John 6.

I have given you the scriptures. Please review them again.

Romans 5:5 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Under what condition does our hope not disappoint us? We will never fail to arrive at eternal life IF the Spirit of God has been poured out into our hearts.

1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

According to Peter, under what conditions does God guarantee a person will attain eternal life? (1 his great mercy, 2) born again, 3) resurrection of Jesus Christ, 4) protected by the power of God.

According to John 6, the Father gives some people to Jesus. According to John 3, these people are born again. According to John 1, these people are born not of man but of God.



It seems like your understanding of these passages is not accurate. The phrase "by faith" is used in contrast to "by works of the law". The main difference between these two concepts is that faith is an inward characteristic while works of the law are outward actions. Faith is a quality of the inner self, while works of the law are related to the outer self. We have seen several passages where the Father's access to the inner self is highlighted and those with the proper inner self are marked as those who will receive eternal life.

The inward man is the true marker of those who are being saved by God because the outward man can be faked.

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

God is the one who is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And one way he judges my heart is to preach a word of promise to me and see how I respond to it. (Hebrews 4:12) He is the one who cultivates a heart, preparing it to believe Jesus and remain a believer. And if the Father is at work in the inner self, that person will never fall away and that one will attain eternal life.

Then Chalk one up for Calvin, I guess.

I know I believed from the age that one can believe anything, because my mommy and daddy told me and they would not lie to me.

Just like proverbs said in 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go, Even when he is old he will not depart from it.

I was, and I did not.....

Though took me into middle age to actually become born again.....

 

[setst777]

setst777 said: In John 6:40, Lord Jesus does identify "who" the "all" are whom the Father gives to the Son, which Lord Jesus identifies as "whoever believes."

Right. Jesus tells us what made the difference between those who believed him and those who didn't. The reason why some believed while others didn't believe is because the Father gave them to Jesus. He isn't saying that the Father gave them to Jesus because they believed. He is saying that they believed because the Father gave them to Jesus.

A = Father gives people to Jesus.
B = They believe

A causes B.

The word "For" [Greek: gar] in "John 6:40" explains the reason for what was stated previously in "John 6:39;" in that, "everyone who believes" are identified as the "all" whom the Father gives to the Son. You can play games if you want, but that is what the verses state. And I am glad people are viewing these messages.

On the contrary, the parable depicts a farmer casting seed to the ground. Only one type of soil produces a crop: cultivated soil. Jesus explains the meaning of cultivated soil: "But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance."

We agree. That is all that the "Parable of the Sower" teaches.

All we need to do is remember who cultivates the soil. The farmer cultivates the soil, preparing the soil to receive the seed. Likewise, just as the farmer prepares the soil to receive the seed, the Father prepares the heart of those chosen to receive the word, believe it, and remain in belief.

In all three instances that the "Parable of the Sower" is given (Matthew 13:1–23, Mark 4:1–20, Luke 8:4–15), the teaching has nothing to do with cultivating; rather, the parable is about the seeds fell on the various types of soils, and the results of where they fell as Lord Jesus, himself, explains to us in "Matthew 13:18-23," "Mark 4:13-20," and "Luke 8:11-15."

Paul taught that if God pours out his spirit into the heart of someone, that person's hope for eternal life will never be disappointed.

Paul never stated that; rather, just the opposite, that those who believe are the ones the Spirit would indwell.

Galatians 3:14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation - in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

The Spirit is poured out on believers.

All those in the Upper Room were believers waiting for what Lord Jesus promised them - the pouring out of the Spirit.

Acts 1:4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.

Peter states that others could receive the Spirit too if they repented first.

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Lord Jesus taught likewise, as follows:

John 7:37-39 (WEB) 37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. {{{Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.}}}

setst777 said: Why don't you provide a Scripture that states that "rebirth" is necessary for one to accept the fact that Jesus is the Messiah? Go ahead and give the verse if you can find it.

I have given you the scriptures. Please review them again.

Romans 5:5 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

To whom does the Spirit pour the love of God into?

Paul answers; in that:

Romans 5:5 God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

When was the Spirit given to "us" according to Paul? What does Paul state?

Galatians 3:14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation - in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

Under what condition does our hope not disappoint us? We will never fail to arrive at eternal life IF the Spirit of God has been poured out into our hearts.

1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

"1 Peter 1:3-5" provides no guarantee that the born-again believer will remain in that faith and hope. It only states we were born again into that living hope.

If "hope" was guaranteed than Peter would not be instructing Born again Elect Christians to soberly set our hope fully on that grace in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:13 Be sober, and set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ

2 Peter 1:8-11 (WEB) 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to not be idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten {{{the cleansing from his old sins}}}. 10 Therefore, {{{brothers and sisters}}}, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the Eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 3:17 (WEB) 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing these things beforehand, beware, lest being carried away with the error of the wicked, you fall from your own steadfastness.

 

[setst777]

So, are you comfortable with the idea that God violates human freedom? Are you okay with the idea that God forecloses on a person's right to choose otherwise? Interesting.

I am comfortable with what the Scriptures reveal about God's justice. When God judges people for their own sins, for rejecting His grace, then, of course this violates our human freedom, which is the due punishment for their wickedness.

Let's look at this more carefully. We can imagine that before Jesus came, the state of his people was a mixed bag. Some of them had hard hearts, while others didn't. As soon as Jesus arrives on the scene, God hardens those who have hardened themselves so that they will not receive the gospel so as to be saved.

Are you okay with that?

God has hardened Israel for their continual rejection of His grace in the OT as well. When a person hardens themselves to God long enough through resisting God, then eventually, God will harden them in judgment so they cannot receive His grace.

The idea that God waits for us to repent so that he can choose us is like the woman who selects a pot from among all the available pots. However, the idea that God cultivates a heart that will believe Jesus' word and never give up is like the woman who shapes clay on a pottery wheel to create someone to grant his mercy and blessing.

God is patient with the wicked, because God is good, not desiring anyone to perish. But God's offer of grace can be resisted. And if a wicked person persistently rejects God's grace, then God will judge them.

Romans 2:4-5 ”Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God“

Those who believe are those who receive God's grace, while those who refuse to believe remain under God's judgment.

John 1:18 (WEB) 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You can play games if you want, but that is what the verses state.

I am not playing games. I am using basic reading techniques. We understand the meaning of the passage from the surrounding context. The passage depicts two groups: some hear his message and believe, while others hear his message and don't believe. Jesus identifies those who believe as those whom the Father has given him. And he says that God's will is that he loses none of those whom he has given to him. This is a true statement, if and only if God is the causal agent of perseverance.

In all three instances that the "Parable of the Sower" is given (Matthew 13:1–23, Mark 4:1–20, Luke 8:4–15), the teaching has nothing to do with cultivating;

Why deny the obvious? I don't get that."How do you think the 'good' soil became good? Even if you are not familiar with farming, the parable itself provides an answer. 'Good' soil is typically not hard, rocky, or filled with weeds. So, how does this happen? The farmer engages in a process called 'cultivation,' which involves tilling the soil, removing weeds and rocks, and preparing the soil to accept seeds. In other words, the soil is not naturally 'good,' but rather, it needs to be cultivated by the farmer to become fertile and productive."

Paul never stated that; rather, just the opposite, that those who believe are the ones the Spirit would indwell.

Yes, he did.

The Spirit is poured out on believers.

Not all believers.

All those in the Upper Room were believers waiting for what Lord Jesus promised them - the pouring out of the Spirit.

Acts 1:4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.

Peter states that others could receive the Spirit too if they repented first.

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit

You are confusing the inward work of the Holy Spirit with the outward work of the Holy Spirit. Peter references the prophet Joel, who talked about how their sons and daughters will prophesy. This is what happened on the day of Pentecost. John 7 is a reference to Pentecost, not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 5:5 God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

You misquoted the passage. The love of God is poured out in our hearts. What does this mean? The sentence “The love of God is poured out in our hearts” contains a metonymy. In metonymy, a word associated with something is used to refer to that thing. In this case, “the love of God” represents a broader concept or attribute (God’s love) and is used to refer to the idea of God’s presence or influence in our hearts. It’s a beautiful way to express a deeper spiritual connection. According to Paul, those who have this deeper connection will never fall away from the faith.

"1 Peter 1:3-5" provides no guarantee that the born-again believer will remain in that faith and hope. It only states we were born again into that living hope.

Yes, it does. He refers to being born again as a "living" hope, and he tells us that those who have this living hope will be glorified at the return of Christ.

If "hope" was guaranteed than Peter would not be instructing Born again Elect Christians to soberly set our hope fully on that grace in Christ Jesus.

Why not?

 

[CadyandZoe]

I am comfortable with what the Scriptures reveal about God's justice. When God judges people for their own sins, for rejecting His grace, then, of course this violates our human freedom, which is the due punishment for their wickedness.

Well, okay. If that's what you believe. But you surprise me since those who put trust in free will, usually object to any sort of determinism.

God has hardened is Israel for their continual rejection of His grace in the OT as well.

Did God harden them, or did they harden themselves? You can't have it both ways, so your statement is invalid. But let's return to Paul's argument in Romans 11 where he talks about hardening.

Romans 11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

The statement above is a contradistinction.

1. “What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained”: This part highlights the contrast between Israel’s desires and their actual attainment. Israel seeks something, but they have not yet achieved it.
2. “but those who were chosen obtained it”: In contradistinction to Israel, there is a group (those who were chosen) that has successfully obtained what they sought.
3. “and the rest were hardened”: Here, the rest (those who were not chosen) are characterized by their hardening or lack of attainment.

The contrasting elements in this statement emphasize the differences between the two groups: Israel and those who were chosen. It underscores their divergent outcomes.

The contrast is not between those who accepted God's grace and those who didn't. The contrast is between those who didn't obtain justification and those who did. The single reason why some obtained justification is the fact that God chose them. And the single reason why some didn't attain it is because God hardened them.

You insert a redeeming quality where none exists. Paul never places blame or worthiness on either group because salvation is not a matter of justice. You argue that the hardening was a punishment from God, which makes it a matter of justice. But Paul argues that salvation is based on God's mercy. Hardening wasn't punishment, it was evidence of choice. How do we know whom God chose? He hardens some and not others.

 

[setst777]

Why deny the obvious?

I am not playing games. I am using basic reading techniques. We understand the meaning of the passage from the surrounding context. The passage depicts two groups: some hear his message and believe, while others hear his message and don't believe. Jesus identifies those who believe as those whom the Father has given him. And he says that God's will is that he loses none of those whom he has given to him. This is a true statement, if and only if God is the causal agent of perseverance.

Lord Jesus identifies who the "all" are whom the Father gives to the Son in "John 6:40."

John 6:39-40 (WEB) 39 This is the will of my Father who sent me, that of {{{all}}} he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day. 40 {{{For}}} this is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

The word "For" tells us that an explanation follows that identifies who the "all" are that God gives to the Son - "everyone who believes."

John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

setst777 said: In all three instances that the "Parable of the Sower" is given (Matthew 13:1–23, Mark 4:1–20, Luke 8:4–15), the teaching has nothing to do with cultivating

Why deny the obvious?

Lord Jesus gave the explanation of "The Sower" three times,
"Matthew 13:18-23," "Mark 4:13-20," and "Luke 8:11-15." None of Lord Jesus own interpretation of "The Sower" does he describe anything about cultivating. That was not the purpose for his Parable.

setst777 said: All those in the Upper Room were believers waiting for what Lord Jesus promised them - the pouring out of the Spirit.

Acts 1:4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.

Peter states that others could receive the Spirit too if they repented first.

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit

You are confusing the inward work of the Holy Spirit with the outward work of the Holy Spirit?

Nothing is being confused by me. The Spirit has to indwell the believer to work his inward change. The Scriptures are clear, that only those who repent and believe are the ones whom the Spirit indwells to give life.

On the Day of Pentecost, Peter states that others could receive the Spirit too if they repented first.

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Lord Jesus taught likewise, as follows:

John 7:37-39 (WEB) 37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. {{{Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.}}}

setst777 said: Romans 5:5 God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

you misquoted the passage.... It’s a beautiful way to express a deeper spiritual connection. According to Paul, those who have this deeper connection will never fall away from the faith.

Part of the verse did not copy over, which is my fault. My apologies.

It reads:

Romans 5:5 "The love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us."

Paul does not say that the Spirit was poured out within our hearts, but the love of God was poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit.

According Paul, when did the Holy Spirit pour the love of God into our hearts?

"Love" is one of the fruits of the Spirit that is the possession of those who already believe. The Fruit of the Spirit are given to believers by the Holy Spirit who dwells in believers, not the wicked. So, the pronoun "our" refers to those who believe, whom Paul is writing to.

When was the Spirit given to "us" according to Paul? What does Paul state?

Galatians 3:14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation - in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

Peter warned the born-again Christians to remain faithful to be saved.

2 Peter 1:8-11 (WEB) 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to not be idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten {{{the cleansing from his old sins}}}. 10 Therefore, {{{brothers and sisters}}}, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the Eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 3:17 (WEB) 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing these things beforehand, beware, lest being carried away with the error of the wicked, you fall from your own steadfastness.

In all the rest of your post, you are ignoring and rejecting what the Scriptures actually state, and supplying your own meaning just as you did in your replies I already answered. I just quoted the Scriptures in reply to you, and showed by Scripture why your interpretation is wrong, just as I did in "John 6:39-40," and the rest of your post that I replied to. You reject all the Scriptures given that show that we are:

• saved (eternal life) by faith, not so we can believe (John 3:16),
• that the Spirit indwells us by faith to give us life (John 7:37-39),
• that the will and good pleasure of God is to save those who believe (John 6:40; 1 Corinthians 1:21)
• that we pass out of death onto life by faith (John 5:24),
• that we are raised to life by faith in the working of God (Colossians 2:12).

These are all very plain Scriptures to understand, but you choose to believe in the exact opposite of what they plainly state.
You choose to explain God's Words away with philosophies that the Scriptures do not teach.
You, and others like you, choose to put your faith in the doctrines of Calvinism; however, Calvin cannot save you.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

I am not playing games. I am using basic reading techniques. We understand the meaning of the passage from the surrounding context. The passage depicts two groups: some hear his message and believe, while others hear his message and don't believe. Jesus identifies those who believe as those whom the Father has given him. And he says that God's will is that he loses none of those whom he has given to him. This is a true statement, if and only if God is the causal agent of perseverance.

This needs further defining as it is the concept of predestination (Calvin style)

According to John Calvin, predestination is God’s unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death

IOW... Those that God initially selects are those that as Jesus said are those who believe as those whom the Father has given him. So there is no choice in the matter. It is a cut and dried plan. There can be no free will

AND the scariest thing of all is the statement "while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death.

"BARRED". Puts shivers up my spine. It truly would be best if those folk had never been born.

Also.. makes me wonder about folks like Karla Faye Tucker. Are you folks old enough to remember that story? In TX she killed 2 people , during a robbery , with a pick axe and was sentenced to death.

Before execution she had a true conversion in prison to Christianity and she had a prison ministry of sorts teaching the word.

They kept her execution as planned... and on her way she said she was at total peace knowing what awaited her.... and she truly believed.

So... I wonder

 

[setst777]

setst777 said: I am comfortable with what the Scriptures reveal about God's justice. When God judges people for their own sins, for rejecting His grace, then, of course this violates our human freedom, which is the due punishment for their wickedness.

Well, okay. If that's what you believe. But you surprise me since those who put trust in free will, usually object to any sort of determinism.

God determines according to His will and good pleasure; in that:

God has determined that, through the preaching of the Gospel, to save whoever will believe (John 3:16; 1 Corinthians 1:21).
God has determined to patiently encourage, admonish, urge, and reason with the sinner to repent so they can be saved (Romans 2:3-4).
God has determined to punish those who persistently refuse to believe because they die in their sins - condemned (Romans 2:3-5).

Romans 2:3-9 (WEB) 3 Do you think this, O man who judges those who practice such things, and do the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of his goodness, forbearance, and patience, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath, revelation, and of the righteous judgment of God; 6 who “will pay back to everyone according to their works:” [Psalm 62:12; Proverbs 24:12] 7 to those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory, honor, and incorruptibility, eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-seeking, and don’t obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, will be wrath, indignation, 9 oppression, and anguish on every soul of man who does evil, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

God has graced mankind with free will to make choices, because we are created in God's image (Genesis 1:26-27) with God's Law written on our hearts (Romans 2:13-16). Therefore, being dead in sin does not prevent us from choosing the salvation God offers to sinners by the Gospel; rather we are given life from death by believing.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Regeneration is to Pass out of death onto life (2 Corinthians 1:9-10; Ephesians 2:1, 5; Colossians 2:13), and is by believing.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 5:40 (WEB) Yet you will not come to me, that you may have life.

Regeneration is the light of life (Ephesians 5:8) and is by faith evidenced by following Lord Jesus:

John 8:12 (WEB) He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.

John 12:46 (WEB) 46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in the darkness

Regeneration refers to the sinner being raised with Christ (Ephesians 2:6), which is by Faith in the working of God (Colossians 2:12).

Colossians 2:12 (WEB) 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God

Those who believe, after hearing the Gospel (Romans 10:17) are saved - eternal life, which is the rebirth by the Spirit (John 3:16).

John 3:16 ... whoever believes has eternal life (rebirth of the Spirit)

Did God harden them, or did they harden themselves? You can't have it both ways, so your statement is invalid.

God hardens those who continually harden themselves, resisting God's grace.

Romans 1:22-28 (WEB)
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper

But let's return to Paul's argument in Romans 11 where he talks about hardening.

Romans 11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

The statement above is a contradistinction.

1. “What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained”: This part highlights the contrast between Israel’s desires and their actual attainment. Israel seeks something, but they have not yet achieved it.
2. “but those who were chosen obtained it”: In contradistinction to Israel, there is a group (those who were chosen) that has successfully obtained what they sought.
3. “and the rest were hardened”: Here, the rest (those who were not chosen) are characterized by their hardening or lack of attainment.

The contrasting elements in this statement emphasize the differences between the two groups: Israel and those who were chosen. It underscores their divergent outcomes.

The contrast is not between those who accepted God's grace and those who didn't. The contrast is between those who didn't obtain justification and those who did. The single reason why some obtained justification is the fact that God chose them. And the single reason why some didn't attain it is because God hardened them.

You insert a redeeming quality where none exists. Paul never places blame or worthiness on either group because salvation is not a matter of justice. You argue that the hardening was a punishment from God, which makes it a matter of justice. But Paul argues that salvation is based on God's mercy. Hardening wasn't punishment, it was evidence of choice. How do we know whom God chose? He hardens some and not others.

Israel, in general, did not seek it by faith. All your philosophizing cannot change that.

Romans 9:32
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who didn’t follow after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith; 31 but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, didn’t arrive at the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they didn’t seek it by faith, but as it were by works of the law. They stumbled over the stumbling stone; 33 even as it is written,

“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and a rock of offense;
and no one who believes in him will be disappointed.” [Isaiah 8:14; 28:16]

Romans 11:20-22 (WEB) 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.