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Was Peter thr Rock that the Church was built upon?

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#1
n2thelight

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Christ is the Rock not Peter,so therefore Peter cannot be the Rock of whom the Church is built... Bout to go to sleep now,will comment more later...
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#2
jerryjohnson

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[quote name='n2thelight;74613]Christ is the Rock not Peter' date='so therefore Peter cannot be the Rock of whom the Church is built... Bout to go to sleep now,will comment more later...[/QUOTE']Correct, Jesus Christ is our RockIn the verse Mat 16:18, we have two types of "rock." the first, Peter = a (piece of) rock, the second, refering to Jesus is "a (mass of) rock." Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter (G4074), and upon this rock (G4073) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Mat 16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. G4074Πέτρος, Petros, pet'-rosApparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock (larger than G3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle: - Peter, rock. Compare G2786.G4073πέτρα, petra, pet'-ra, Feminine of the same as G4074; a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively): - rock.Do not believe someone that will tell you the Church, the entire assembly of believers in Jesus Christ, was built on Peter, only a piece of rock.
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#3
HammerStone

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Well said you two!The Greek is the key, unfortunately that subtle difference is not conveyed in our language. Peter is a movable rock in the sense of a boulder, our Lord and Savior cannot be moved!
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#4
Diana

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[quote name='n2thelight;74613]Christ is the Rock not Peter' date='so therefore Peter cannot be the Rock of whom the Church is built... Bout to go to sleep now,will comment more later...[/QUOTE']St. Peter was the rock that Christ will build His Church on. Jesus never spoke Greek, which makes the Greek translation in error. Jesus had always spoken Aramic. The Aramic word for "rock" is Cephas. That is why in the Bible, St. Paul calls St. Peter "Cephas." He was using Peter's Aramic name. Therefore, when Jesus spoke to St. Peter in the language that He was speaking, this is what He said:Blessed are you, Simon Barjona. Because it was not flesh and blood that revealed this to you but my Father in heaven, so I now say to you: You are Peter (Cephas) and on this rock (Cephas), I will build my Church. In Aramic, there is only one word for "rock." And Aramic is the language that Jesus spoke.
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#5
Christina

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Christ is the Rock God built his church on ..The church was not built on a man but the Son of God ....
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#6
Diana

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Christ is the Rock God built his church on ..The church was not built on a man but the Son of God ....

The Bible specifically stated: So, now I say to you. You are Peter (Cephas) and on this rock (Cephas), I will build my church. (Matthew 16:18). And Christ said it in Aramic because that was the language He spoke, not Greek. :P
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#7
Moses

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Thank you Christina! Moses
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#8
Diana

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Christ is the Rock God built his church on ..The church was not built on a man but the Son of God ....

By the way, I forgot to mention that Christ the Rock is the Head of that Church that He established. St. Peter, whose name was also Rock and changed by Christ Himself, was the one to lead that Church. This explains why Christ gave St. Peter and only St. Peter the keys and told St. Peter and only St. Peter to take care of His entire flock (John 21:15-18).
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#9
path

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[quote name='jerryjohnson;74622]Correct' date=' Jesus Christ is our Rock In the verse Mat 16:18, we have two types of "rock." the first, Peter = a (piece of) rock, the second, refering to Jesus is "a (mass of) rock." Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter (G4074), and upon this rock (G4073) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Mat 16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. G4074Πέτρος, Petros, pet'-rosApparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock (larger than G3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle: - Peter, rock. Compare G2786. G4073πέτρα, petra, pet'-ra, Feminine of the same as G4074; a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively): - rock. Do not believe someone that will tell you the Church, the entire assembly of believers in Jesus Christ, was built on Peter, only a piece of rock.[/QUOTE] Good study JerryJohnson, our Rock is Jesus Christ! Others may follow the little piece of rock wherever they want but then they have been deluted for a long time. Someday they will find out.
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#10
Diana

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[quote name='path;74660]Good study JerryJohnson' date=' our Rock is Jesus Christ! Others may follow the little piece of rock wherever they want but then they have been deluted for a long time. Someday they will find out.[/QUOTE'] Yes, except for one little thing. Jesus never spoke Greek. He spoke Aramic, and Aramic was translated into Greek. In Aramic, the word "Peter" and "rock" are exactly the same. It is Cephas.
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#11
path

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[quote name='Diana;74663]Yes' date=' except for one little thing. Jesus never spoke Greek. He spoke Aramic, and Aramic was translated into Greek. In Aramic, the word "Peter" and "rock" are exactly the same. It is Cephas.[/QUOTE'] You may build your house on the sand (little rocks) if you want.
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#12
Butch5

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[quote name='n2thelight;74613]Christ is the Rock not Peter' date='so therefore Peter cannot be the Rock of whom the Church is built... Bout to go to sleep now,will comment more later...[/QUOTE']Actually I don't believe it was Peter or Jesus. I believe it was,Matthew 16:15-18 ( KJV ) He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I beileve it was the confession Peter made, "Thou art the Christ"I don't see how it could be Peter since Peter is a small stone and Rock is a massive one.
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#13
Butch5

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You may build your house on the sand (little rocks) if you want.

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#14
Diana

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You may build your house on the sand (little rocks) if you want.

Your response here doesn't really dispute anything I said about Jesus speaking Aramic. Or perhaps, you believe that Jesus spoke Greek 2000 years ago?
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#15
path

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[quote name='Diana;74667]Your response here doesn't really dispute anything I said about Jesus speaking Aramic. Or perhaps' date=' you believe that Jesus spoke Greek 2000 years ago?[/QUOTE'] So you do not believe God can take care of His Own Book. Butch and Diana, Let me ask you which manuscript you are reading from?
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#16
Diana

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[quote name='Butch5;74666]However' date=' Mathew originally wrote his gospel in Aramaic and later translated it to Greek. Why would he use the two different Greek words if he originally used the same word in Aramaic?[/QUOTE'] St. Matthew never translated it into Greek. It was later translated into Greek by someone else. When St. Matthew wrote his Gospel, he was writing it to the Jews to convert them to Christianity. Matthew's Gospel was meant for the Jews to read. St. Peter also spoke Aramic, not Greek.
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#17
Martin W.

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#18
Butch5

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[quote name='Diana;74663]Yes' date=' except for one little thing. Jesus never spoke Greek. He spoke Aramic, and Aramic was translated into Greek. In Aramic, the word "Peter" and "rock" are exactly the same. It is Cephas.[/QUOTE']However, Mathew originally wrote his gospel in Aramaic and later translated it to Greek. Why would he use the two different Greek words if he originally used the same word in Aramaic?
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#19
Christina

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If God had wanted it to say Peter is the rock he would have said it not used his name that just happens to mean rock ..I happen to agree with Martain and Butch on context of the verse... but reguardlessHe tells us he is our corner stone as well Diana and that is the first rock laid when a church is going to be built so he gives us a second/double wittness that he Jesus Christ is our Rock .... but I know you wont listen so you follow your rock and we will follow oursDeu 32:31For their rock [is] not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves [being] judges. Posted ImageDeu 32:37And he shall say, Where [are] their gods, [their] rock in whom they trusted,
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#20
Butch5

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[quote name='Diana;74670]St. Matthew never translated it into Greek. It was later translated into Greek by someone else. When St. Matthew wrote his Gospel' date=' he was writing it to the Jews to convert them to Christianity. Matthew's Gospel was meant for the Jews to read. St. Peter also spoke Aramic, not Greek.[/QUOTE']You seem certain that Matthew never translated his gospel into Greek, can you supply some evidence?
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#21
Diana

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[quote name='path;74668]So you do not believe God can take care of His Own Book. Butch and Diana' date=' Let me ask you which manuscript you are reading from?[/QUOTE']The TRUTH is that when translating from one language to another, there is bound to be errors. Even in my native language, it's not easy to translate it into English. The Catholic Church takes the view that in order to interpret the Bible correctly, one need to take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literry genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking, and narrating then current. "For the fact is that turth is differently presented and expressed in the vaious types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts and in other forms of literary expressions.' (CCC 110). The second thing is to read Holy Scripture with the same Holy Spirit that inspired the author to write it.
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#22
path

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[quote name='Diana;74676]The TRUTH is that when translating from one language to another' date=' there is bound to be errors. Even in my native language, it's not easy to translate it into English. The Catholic Church takes the view that in order to interpret the Bible correctly, one need to take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literry genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking, and narrating then current. "For the fact is that turth is differently presented and expressed in the vaious types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts and in other forms of literary expressions.' (CCC 110). The second thing is to read Holy Scripture with the same Holy Spirit that inspired the author to write it.[/QUOTE'] So, what you aresaying is the Holy Spirit made the mistake of using two different words in the Matthew text. :eek: I am actually getting tired of your catholicism and choose not to read your stuff any more.
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#23
Christina

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I repeat we have a second wittnessHe tells us he is our corner stone as well Diana and that is the first Rock laid when a church is going to be built so he gives us a second/double wittness that he Jesus Christ is our Rock our Cornerstone upon which his church is built ....1Cr 10:4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. but I know you wont listen so you follow your rock and we will follow ours Deu 32:31For their rock [is] not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves [being] judges. Posted ImageDeu 32:37And he shall say, Where [are] their gods, [their] rock in whom they trusted,
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#24
Diana

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[quote name='Butch5;74674]You seem certain that Matthew never translated his gospel into Greek' date=' can you supply some evidence?[/QUOTE'] It was St. Jerome who translated Matthew's Gospel. This is recorded in Catholic history. St. Jerome studied Aramic or Hebrew and he translated Matthew's Gospel into Greek. St. Jerome later translated the entire Bible into Latin. I have a book enttiled the "History of the Catholic Church" and it cited that St. Jerome translated the books from Aramic into Greek. He later translated it into Latin. It is also found in this fact archive website which I included a quote from: [QUOTE]To take Jerome at his word, the simplest conclusion from his combined testimonies may be summed up that Jerome knew at firsthand an Aramaic ("Syriac but in a Hebrew script") version of Matthew that had been circulating in Judea and Syria among the circumcized Nazarenes and among Ebionites, a copy of which was collected by Bishop Pamphilius for the library at Caesarea Palaestina and another copy, made for Jerome at Beroea, where it was still in use "to this day" (the 4th century). According to Jerome's testimony it was translated by Jerome into Greek— but all are now missing: the various Aramaic originals, the copies, a Greek translation already lost by the time of Jerome and Jerome's own Greek translation. [/QUOTE] http://www.fact-arch...spel_of_Matthew
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#25
Diana

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[quote name='path;74677]So' date=' what you aresaying is the Holy Spirit made the mistake of using two different words in the Matthew text. :eek: I am actually getting tired of your catholicism and choose not to read your stuff any more.[/QUOTE']Man was the one who wrote the Bible under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. God's message is in the Bible and always has been, but you do need to take into account the time and culture of the people who wrote these books in order to understand what the Holy Spirit is saying because man is finite and limited and could never comprehend the infinite and eternal God. It is only through His Son that we can understand God the Father because Christ came in the human form.
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#26
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#27
gumby

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God is our rock not peter. 2nd Samuel 22:32, 2nd Samuel 22:47, 2nd Samuel 23:3, Psalms 18:2 and Psalms 40:2. God bless :)
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#28
HammerStone

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I'll have to slightly disagree with ya'll Butch, Christina, and gervais, but I don't find reason to argue because it's close enough for my tastes.

I Corinthians 10:4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Diana, your church doctrine does err in that while Jesus did not speak Greek, he did speak Aramaic. The translation was properly preserved in the Greek from the original Aramaic he would have spoken, being very careful to ensure the meaning is conveyed. Even speaking the phrase in modern English out loud yields the conclusion that some context has to place the meaning of the rock.IE: If Jesus were speaking to Peter as the rock, why would subject shift mid-sentence without a reason to change it? It does not make sense to grammatically read it with Peter as the rock.
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#29
Sir Knight

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In Mark 3:16 and John 1:42 we see that Jesus renames Simon "Kepha" in Aramaic which literally means "rock." This was an extraordinary thing for Jesus to do, because "rock" was not even a name in Jesus' time. Jesus did this, not to give Simon a strange name, but to identify his new status among the apostles. When God changes a person's name, He changes their status.Jesus said in Aramaic in Matt. 16:18, you are "Kepha" and on this "Kepha" I will build my Church. In Aramaic, "kepha" means a massive stone, and "evna" means little pebble. Some non-Catholics argue that, because the Greek word for rock is "petra", that "Petros" actually means "a small rock", and therefore Jesus was attempting to diminish Peter right after blessing him by calling him a small rock. Not only is this nonsensical in the context of Jesus' blessing of Peter, Jesus was speaking Aramaic and used "Kepha," not "evna." Using Petros to translate Kepha was done simply to reflect the masculine noun of Peter.Moreover, if the translator wanted to identify Peter as the "small rock," he would have used "lithos" which means a little pebble in Greek. Also, Petros and petra were synonyms at the time the Gospel was written, so any attempt to distinguish the two words is inconsequential. Thus, Jesus called Peter the massive rock, not the little pebble, on which He would build the Church. (You don’t even need Matt. 16:18 to prove Peter is the rock because Jesus renamed Simon “rock” in Mark 3:16 and John 1:42!).To further demonstrate that Jesus was speaking Aramaic, in Matt. 16:17 Jesus says Simon "Bar-Jona." The use of "Bar-Jona" proves that Jesus was speaking Aramaic. In Aramaic, "Bar" means son, and "Jonah" means John or dove (Holy Spirit). See Matt. 27:46 and Mark 15:34 which give another example of Jesus speaking Aramaic as He utters in rabbinical fashion the first verse of Psalm 22 declaring that He is the Christ, the Messiah. This shows that Jesus was indeed speaking Aramaic, as the Jewish people did at that time.Also, in quoting "on this rock," the Scriptures use the Greek construction "tautee tee" in Matt. 16:18 which means on "this" rock; on "this same" rock; or on "this very" rock. "Tautee tee" is a demonstrative construction in Greek, pointing to Peter, the subject of the sentence (and not his confession of faith as some non-Catholics argue) as the very rock on which Jesus builds His Church. The demonstrative (“tautee”) generally refers to its closest antecedent (“Petros”). Also, there is no place in Scripture where “faith” is equated with “rock.”In addition (making reference to Matt. 16:18-19), to argue that Jesus first blesses Peter for having received divine revelation from the Father, then diminishes him by calling him a small pebble, and then builds him up again by giving him the keys to the kingdom of heaven is entirely illogical, and a gross manipulation of the text to avoid the truth of Peter's leadership in the Church. This is a three-fold blessing of Peter - you are blessed, you are the rock on which I will build my Church, and you will receive the keys to the kingdom of heaven (not you are blessed for receiving Revelation, but you are still an insignificant little pebble, and yet I am going to give you the keys to the kingdom).To further rebut the Protestant argument that Jesus was speaking about Peter’s confession of faith (not Peter himself) based on the revelation he received, the verses are clear that Jesus, after acknowledging Peter’s receipt of divine revelation, turns the whole discourse to the person of Peter: Blessed are “you” Simon, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to “you,” and I tell “you,” “you” are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church. I will give “you” the keys to the kingdom, and whatever “you” bind and loose on earth will be bound and loosed in heaven. Jesus’ whole discourse relates to the person of Peter, not his confession of faith. Finally, in 1 Cor. 3:11 Jesus is called the only foundation of the Church, and yet in Eph. 2:20, the apostles are called the foundation of the Church. Similarly, in 1 Peter 2:25 Jesus is called the Shepherd of the flock, but in Acts 20:28 the apostles are called the shepherds of the flock. These verses show that there are multiple metaphors for the Church, and that words used by the inspired writers of Scripture can have various meanings. Catholics agree that God is the rock of the Church, but this does not mean He cannot confer this distinction upon Peter as well, to facilitate the unity He desires for the Church.
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#30
Diana

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[quote name='Sir Knight;74694] Mark 3:16 and John 1:42 we see that Jesus renames Simon "Kepha" in Aramaic which literally means "rock." This was an extraordinary thing for Jesus to do' date=' because "rock" was not even a name in Jesus' time. Jesus did this, not to give Simon a strange name, but to identify his new status among the apostles. When God changes a person's name, He changes their status.Jesus said in Aramaic in Matt. 16:18, you are "Kepha" and on this "Kepha" I will build my Church. In Aramaic, "kepha" means a massive stone, and "evna" means little pebble. Some non-Catholics argue that, because the Greek word for rock is "petra", that "Petros" actually means "a small rock", and therefore Jesus was attempting to diminish Peter right after blessing him by calling him a small rock. Not only is this nonsensical in the context of Jesus' blessing of Peter, Jesus was speaking Aramaic and used "Kepha," not "evna." Using Petros to translate Kepha was done simply to reflect the masculine noun of Peter.Moreover, if the translator wanted to identify Peter as the "small rock," he would have used "lithos" which means a little pebble in Greek. Also, Petros and petra were synonyms at the time the Gospel was written, so any attempt to distinguish the two words is inconsequential. Thus, Jesus called Peter the massive rock, not the little pebble, on which He would build the Church. (You don’t even need Matt. 16:18 to prove Peter is the rock because Jesus renamed Simon “rock” in Mark 3:16 and John 1:42!).To further demonstrate that Jesus was speaking Aramaic, in Matt. 16:17 Jesus says Simon "Bar-Jona." The use of "Bar-Jona" proves that Jesus was speaking Aramaic. In Aramaic, "Bar" means son, and "Jonah" means John or dove (Holy Spirit). See Matt. 27:46 and Mark 15:34 which give another example of Jesus speaking Aramaic as He utters in rabbinical fashion the first verse of Psalm 22 declaring that He is the Christ, the Messiah. This shows that Jesus was indeed speaking Aramaic, as the Jewish people did at that time.Also, in quoting "on this rock," the Scriptures use the Greek construction "tautee tee" in Matt. 16:18 which means on "this" rock; on "this same" rock; or on "this very" rock. "Tautee tee" is a demonstrative construction in Greek, pointing to Peter, the subject of the sentence (and not his confession of faith as some non-Catholics argue) as the very rock on which Jesus builds His Church. The demonstrative (“tautee”) generally refers to its closest antecedent (“Petros”). Also, there is no place in Scripture where “faith” is equated with “rock.”In addition (making reference to Matt. 16:18-19), to argue that Jesus first blesses Peter for having received divine revelation from the Father, then diminishes him by calling him a small pebble, and then builds him up again by giving him the keys to the kingdom of heaven is entirely illogical, and a gross manipulation of the text to avoid the truth of Peter's leadership in the Church. This is a three-fold blessing of Peter - you are blessed, you are the rock on which I will build my Church, and you will receive the keys to the kingdom of heaven (not you are blessed for receiving Revelation, but you are still an insignificant little pebble, and yet I am going to give you the keys to the kingdom).To further rebut the Protestant argument that Jesus was speaking about Peter’s confession of faith (not Peter himself) based on the revelation he received, the verses are clear that Jesus, after acknowledging Peter’s receipt of divine revelation, turns the whole discourse to the person of Peter: Blessed are “you” Simon, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to “you,” and I tell “you,” “you” are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church. I will give “you” the keys to the kingdom, and whatever “you” bind and loose on earth will be bound and loosed in heaven. Jesus’ whole discourse relates to the person of Peter, not his confession of faith. Finally, in 1 Cor. 3:11 Jesus is called the only foundation of the Church, and yet in Eph. 2:20, the apostles are called the foundation of the Church. Similarly, in 1 Peter 2:25 Jesus is called the Shepherd of the flock, but in Acts 20:28 the apostles are called the shepherds of the flock. These verses show that there are multiple metaphors for the Church, and that words used by the inspired writers of Scripture can have various meanings. Catholics agree that God is the rock of the Church, but this does not mean He cannot confer this distinction upon Peter as well, to facilitate the unity He desires for the Church.[/QUOTE'] Well said. Thank you. You explained it better than I would have. :) Even translating my native language into English can be a challenge. The rules in the Chamorro language is not the same as English and can lead to some errors in interpretation.
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