Jump to content

Primary: Sky Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
Secondary: Sky Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
Pattern: Blank Waves Squares Notes Sharp Wood Rockface Leather Honey Vertical Triangles
Welcome to Christianity Board!
Christianity Board is a thriving forum community for registered members to share, pray, and respectfully debate about the faith in Jesus Christ. We are a nondenominational Christian forum in that we welcome the diversity of Christianity and we are not attached to any one denominational group. Join today for access to posting on the forums, chatting in the shoutbox, creating a blog, private messenger, profile features and so much more. May your time here be blessed in the name of Jesus!
Login to Account Create an Account
Photo

Was Peter thr Rock that the Church was built upon?

* * * * * 1 votes

  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
345 replies to this topic

#331
mjrhealth

mjrhealth

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3,464 posts

 

Typical inane reply. Are you capable of entering into a rational discussion?

 

Apparently not.

Your a learned man im am sure you can figure it out?? At lest  I have some respect for you...


  • 0

The words that I SPEAK they are spirit and they are life. You search the scriptures, reading them thinking they bring you life, and they testify of Me yet you wont come to me so that you can have eternal life.


#332
Mungo

Mungo

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,497 posts

Your a learned man im am sure you can figure it out?? At lest  I have some respect for you...

 

You have no respect for me or you wouldn't make such a stupid reply.


  • 0
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts.

Prejudice is a great timesaver. It enables you to form opinions without bothering to get facts.

#333
FHII

FHII

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,126 posts

Really??

Time for another Bible lesson my ignorant friend . . .

 

God commands us to honor our FATHER and mother (Exod. 20:12).

St. Stephen refers to "our father Abraham," (Acts 7:2).

St. Paul speaks of "our father Isaac” (Romans 9:10).

For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).

 

In Matt. 23:9, Jesus is using hyperbole (exaggeration) to make a point and does so many times in Scripture.  In the verse that precedes this (Matt: 23:8), Jesus tells us not to call people “Teachers”.

 

Is Jesus telling us that we can’t call certain people "fathers" or “teachers” when they may actually be fathers or teachers?  The answer is a resounding, “No.”  He is telling us that no man is to be considered father above our Father in heaven and no person is to be considered teacher above our Teacher in heaven. 

 

Jesus was speaking about the Scribes and Pharisees who exalted themselves before all: “They love places of honor at banquets, seats of honor in synagogues, greetings in marketplaces, and the salutation 'Rabbi.”(Matt 23:6-7)

 

 

This is all easy to refute except for one thing.  First off.  Yes... people are called "father" in the Bible.  Who???  Paternal men.  Obviously, that is not what Jesus was talking about then.  He was talking about calling a person "father" in a spiritual sense.  In other words, don't call members of the ministry "father".  

 

Now then... Teachers isn't even in the verse:

 

Mat 23:8-10 (KJV)

 

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

 

 

It's "master" and "Rabbi".  I know you will run to another version of the Bible or maybe your Strong's concordance and find "teachers"... Fine.  But the correct word is "master".  This is because it actually WORKS!  You will not find any instance in the NT of someone being called "Rabbi", "Master" or "Father" in a spiritual addressing.  Teachers are a part of the ministry as noted by the first Bishop of Rome:  Paul.

Yes, you will find people called "Master".  But like "Father", it is not in a spiritual addressing.  

Now here's the worst thing.  When you say Jesus was using a hyperbole and exaggerating, you are saying "Yes, I know it's in the Bible, I know Jesus said it, but I don't think he really meant what he said."

  First off, there is no reason to believe he was in this sense.  He's not talking about moving mountains or mustard seeds.  He is giving a command that actually is easy to obey.  

So, anyone who says Jesus didn't mean what he said or was exaggerating is not one I can deal with.  There is no sense in discussing things with them because even if you give the direct words of Jesus (and they must admit he did say it because it's there) they will fall back on the excuse.  They will always hold the "Jesus didn't really mean what he said" card in their hand.  

 

And believe me... Matthew 23:8-10 is not the only issue where the Babylonian Catholic Church does this.


Edited by FHII, 01 March 2017 - 10:08 AM.

  • 0

#334
BreadOfLife

BreadOfLife

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 816 posts

Oh here we going again twisting scripture. So blind

 

Joh_8:44  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 

Ecclesia has nothing to do woith catholic how long wil the lies be spread its not even a building, Apostays here it is right here corrupting the truth, making God a liar.

And, apparently - YOU have a serious reading comprehension problem.
I never said that  "ekklesia" meant "Catholic."  THIS is what I said - so take notes:

 

Here is the phrase in Greek:
η μεν ουν εκκλησια καθ ολης της ιουδαιας

The Catholic Church gets its name from the GREEK for “according to the whole” and “universal” - εκκλησια καθ ολης, which is pronounced“ekklesia katah-holos”.

 

Εκκλησια (ekklesia)  - A gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly; CHURCH

Καθ (katah) - Through out, according to

Ολης (holos) - All, whole, completely

 

"Ekklesia Kata-holos" = CATHOLIC CHURCH.

 

I said "Kata-Holos" is where we get the term "Catholic" - and it's right out of the Bible (Acts 9:31).

If you're going to continue to argue and whine - at least TRY to be honest.


  • 0

"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." - G.K. Chesterton


#335
BreadOfLife

BreadOfLife

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 816 posts

This is all easy to refute except for one thing.  First off.  Yes... people are called "father" in the Bible.  Who???  Paternal men.  Obviously, that is not what Jesus was talking about then.  He was talking about calling a person "father" in a spiritual sense.  In other words, don't call members of the ministry "father".  

 

Now then... Teachers isn't even in the verse:

 

Mat 23:8-10 (KJV)

 

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

 

 

It's "master" and "Rabbi".  I know you will run to another version of the Bible or maybe your Strong's concordance and find "teachers"... Fine.  But the correct word is "master".  This is because it actually WORKS!  You will not find any instance in the NT of someone being called "Rabbi", "Master" or "Father" in a spiritual addressing.  Teachers are a part of the ministry as noted by the first Bishop of Rome:  Paul.

Yes, you will find people called "Master".  But like "Father", it is not in a spiritual addressing.  

Now here's the worst thing.  When you say Jesus was using a hyperbole and exaggerating, you are saying "Yes, I know it's in the Bible, I know Jesus said it, but I don't think he really meant what he said."

  First off, there is no reason to believe he was in this sense.  He's not talking about moving mountains or mustard seeds.  He is giving a command that actually is easy to obey.  

So, anyone who says Jesus didn't mean what he said or was exaggerating is not one I can deal with.  There is no sense in discussing things with them because even if you give the direct words of Jesus (and they must admit he did say it because it's there) they will fall back on the excuse.  They will always hold the "Jesus didn't really mean what he said" card in their hand.  

 

And believe me... Matthew 23:8-10 is not the only issue where the Babylonian Catholic Church does this.

WRONG on ALL counts.

 

First of all – as I already showed you – Paul refers to himself as “Father” to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 4:15):

“For you can have 10,000 instructors in Christ, but you can’t have many fathers. For I became your FATHER in Christ Jesus through the gospel.”

 

This is a Father in a SPIRITUAL sense – NOT paternal.

 

The Greek word used in Matt. 23:8 is διδασκαλοσ (did-as'-kal-os), which means “TEACHER”.

This is the SAME word Paul uses in 1 Cor. 12:28 . . .
 

“And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third TEACHERS, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.”

 

Don't just quote the Bible.  STUDY it and understand what it means . . .


  • 1

"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." - G.K. Chesterton


#336
tom55

tom55

    Love your neighbor as yourself

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,206 posts

Not buying any of your spin Bread of life...  It's the same garbage your fellow Babylonians have tried to peddle before...  YOU are trying to give me Bible lessons?!?!  You couldn't teach a school of fish to swim!

1 john 2:13-14, Acts 7:2, Romans 9:10, 1 Corinthians 4:14-15  is all SPIN? I thought it was scripture. I thought it was The word of God.

Are you denying the word of God? Or is it just your Anti-Catholic bias showing?


Edited by tom55, 01 March 2017 - 10:32 AM.

  • 0

#337
BreadOfLife

BreadOfLife

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 816 posts

1 john 2:13-14, Acts 7:2, Romans 9:10, 1 Corinthians 4:14-15  is all SPIN? I thought it was scripture. I thought it was The word of God.

Are you denying the word of God? Or is it just your Anti-Catholic bias showing?

He doesn't have a credible response.  That's his whole problem - denial.

There is none so blind as the one who refuses to see . . .


  • 0

"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." - G.K. Chesterton


#338
FHII

FHII

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,126 posts

WRONG on ALL counts.

 

First of all – as I already showed you – Paul refers to himself as “Father” to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 4:15):

“For you can have 10,000 instructors in Christ, but you can’t have many fathers. For I became your FATHER in Christ Jesus through the gospel.”

 

This is a Father in a SPIRITUAL sense – NOT paternal.

 

The Greek word used in Matt. 23:8 is διδασκαλοσ (did-as'-kal-os), which means “TEACHER”.

This is the SAME word Paul uses in 1 Cor. 12:28 . . .
 

“And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third TEACHERS, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.”

 

Don't just quote the Bible.  STUDY it and understand what it means . . .

 

 

1 Cor 4:15  

For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

 

No....


  • 0

#339
tom55

tom55

    Love your neighbor as yourself

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,206 posts

1 Cor 4:15  

For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

 

No....

Looks like you are AGREEING with BreadOfLife!!!


  • 0

#340
BreadOfLife

BreadOfLife

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 816 posts

1 Cor 4:15  
For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
 
No....

When in doubt - go to the Greek . . .
 

For though you may have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, because I became your FATHER in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

 ἐὰν γὰρ μυρίουςπαιδαγωγοὺς ἔχητε ἐν Χριστῷ ἀλλ᾿ οὐ πολλοὺς πατέρας· ἐν γὰρ Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ διὰ τοῦ εὐαγγελίου ἐγὼ ὑμᾶςἐγέννησα.

 

Definition of πατέρας (pat-ayr'):  FATHER

 

Game.

Set.

MATCH.


Edited by BreadOfLife, 01 March 2017 - 11:31 AM.

  • 1

"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." - G.K. Chesterton


#341
tom55

tom55

    Love your neighbor as yourself

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,206 posts

1 Cor 4:15  

For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

 

No....

Out of all the Scripture that has been quoted that DESTROYS your theory you pick ONE as an example?

 

The one you picked DESTROYS your theory unless you twist it to make it support your theory.


  • 0

#342
Mungo

Mungo

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,497 posts

If I may interject in this discussion.

 

The argument seems to be about the meaning of "Father" but I think the real issue is the meaning of "call".

 

I said to mjrhealth (post #328):

We don't call our priests father. We address them as father. There is a difference.

 

You may think I am playing with words here but I was trying to highlight the issue of what is meant by "call". I think it those who throw this topic at Catholics who are playing with words - committing the fallacy of equivocation.

 

The Collins Concise Dictionary gives 28 [yes, twenty eight] different meanings to the verb “call”. Some of these are specialist terms (e.g. to “call” at poker), but a couple are relevant here:.

8. (tr) to name or style: they called the dog Rover.

9. (tr) designate: they called him a coward.

or as the Concise Oxford English Dictionary [less comprehensive with only 8 meanings] puts it:- “[3.] give a specified name to. address by a specified name, title, etc.”

 

According to a Greek Orthodox priest, who is also a Greek translator, the word translated “call” in Mt 23:9 is misunderstood. I do not understand the technicalities of Greek but apparently the word used (kalesete) is not any of those used to imply a name or title, but means summon or call forth and is in the second person aorist active subjunctive plural form (and no, I don’t understand what that is!).

 

It’s Strong G2564

kaleo

Akin to the base of G2753; to “call” (properly aloud, but used in a variety of applications, directly or otherwise):—bid, call (forth), (whose, whose sur-) name (was [called]).

 

G2753

keleuo

From a primary word  kello (to urge on); “hail”; to incite by word, that is, order:—bid, (at, give) command (-ment).

 

It’s the same word that is translated call in Mt 9:13, Mk 2:17 & Lk 5:32. “For I came not to call (kalesai) the righteous, but sinners.” 

Or in Lk 14:7-24 where it is translated as ‘invited’ (6 times)

 

This would be the following from the Collins Concise Dictionary

1. to speak out or utter (words, sounds etc.) loudly so as to attract attention

2. (tr) to ask or order to come

or as the Concise Oxford English Dictionary put it:- “[1.] cry out to (someone) in order to summon them or attract their attention.”

 

This is a different meaning of “call” to that used when Protestants say Catholics call their priests father. Following this understanding means there is no contradiction in scripture, or in Catholics “calling” their priests father.

 

Take this example:

As he walked by the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon who is called Peter and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen. And he said to them, "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men." Immediately they left their nets and followed him. And going on from there he saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee and John his brother, in the boat with Zebedee their father, mending their nets, and he called them. (Mt 4:18-21).

 

The first usage of "call" (Simon who is called Peter) uses "call in the sense of named or addressed and it is legomenon (Strong 3004). It is the same as when Catholics 'call' (address) their priests 'father'. It is the same word used here:

"and Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called [legomenos] Christ" (Mt 1:16)

 

The second use of call is when he "called" James and John. Clearly in this case he is calling out to them to attract their attention, to call them to him. The Greek is ekalesen (Strong 2564), the same verb (and hence sense) that Jesus used in Mt 23:9 (and Mk 2:17 & Lk 5:32)


Edited by Mungo, 01 March 2017 - 12:59 PM.

  • 0
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts.

Prejudice is a great timesaver. It enables you to form opinions without bothering to get facts.

#343
tom55

tom55

    Love your neighbor as yourself

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,206 posts

When in doubt - go to the Greek . . .
 

For though you may have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, because I became your FATHER in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

 ἐὰν γὰρ μυρίουςπαιδαγωγοὺς ἔχητε ἐν Χριστῷ ἀλλ᾿ οὐ πολλοὺς πατέρας· ἐν γὰρ Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ διὰ τοῦ εὐαγγελίου ἐγὼ ὑμᾶςἐγέννησα.

 

Definition of πατέρας (pat-ayr'):  FATHER

 

Game.

Set.

MATCH.

Great…..Now you just guaranteed that this discussion will be shut down since you interjected Truth and Catholic teaching into it J


  • 0

#344
BreadOfLife

BreadOfLife

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 816 posts

Great…..Now you just guaranteed that this discussion will be shut down since you interjected Truth and Catholic teaching into it J

When WILL I learn??  ;)


  • 0

"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." - G.K. Chesterton


#345
FHII

FHII

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,126 posts

When in doubt - go to the Greek . . .

For though you may have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, because I became your FATHER in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
ἐὰν γὰρ μυρίουςπαιδαγωγοὺς ἔχητε ἐν Χριστῷ ἀλλ᾿ οὐ πολλοὺς πατέρας· ἐν γὰρ Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ διὰ τοῦ εὐαγγελίου ἐγὼ ὑμᾶςἐγέννησα.

Definition of πατέρας (pat-ayr'): FATHER

Game.
Set.
MATCH.



Ahh, it looks like the catholics are celebrating! How cute..

So BoL provided your version of 1 cor 4:15. Not sure which version but it looks close to the ESV. I'm not debating versions, but here it is again from the KJV:

1 Corinthians 4:15 KJV
For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

So do you see the difference? Your version says "...because i became your father in Christ Jesus...." the KJ says "...I have begotten you...".

Do note one other thing: both versions contain the word father at least once. Yours contains it twice.

Now BoL... Is it possible you made a boo boo? Because i have checked 3 sources and guess what? The word is "gennaw". It is G1080 in Strong's. It means (primarily) to begotten.

Its a bit more difficult than that. Maybe this link will help:

http://biblehub.com/...thians/4-15.htm

And this one:

http://www.godrules....trongs1cor4.htm

[comment removed]


Edited by Angelina, 01 March 2017 - 08:32 PM.
Inappropriate comment

  • 0

#346
Angelina

Angelina

    Prayer Warrior

  • Super Moderator
  • 5,451 posts

FHII, you will be the last person to contribute to this discussion before it is closed. Sorry guys, it seems that this discussion has gone as far as it can with a few insults thrown in as well. This topic is now closed...


  • 0
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blog: http://www.christian...e-of-the-myths/





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users