Jump to content

Primary: Sky Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
Secondary: Sky Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
Pattern: Blank Waves Squares Notes Sharp Wood Rockface Leather Honey Vertical Triangles
Welcome to Christianity Board!
Christianity Board is a thriving forum community for registered members to share, pray, and respectfully debate about the faith in Jesus Christ. We are a nondenominational Christian forum in that we welcome the diversity of Christianity and we are not attached to any one denominational group. Join today for access to posting on the forums, chatting in the shoutbox, creating a blog, private messenger, profile features and so much more. May your time here be blessed in the name of Jesus!
Login to Account Create an Account
Photo

Was Peter thr Rock that the Church was built upon?

* * * * * 1 votes

  • Please log in to reply
239 replies to this topic

#211
Angelina

Angelina

    Prayer Warrior

  • Super Moderator
  • 5,400 posts

Hi tom55

 

When you add that Peters name was changed by Jesus, the son of God, and that a name change in the Torah and Jewish society meant a change in status. AND Peter was called by Jesus to shepherd his flock AND Peter is the only Apostle to have a personal revelation from God (“This was revealed to you personally by my father in heaven.) And only Jesus name is mentioned more times than Peter's in Scripture (with no other Apostle even coming close) then we see that Peter was chosen by Jesus to lead His Church.

 

Surely the flock that Jesus mentions to Peter was the lost sheep of Israel as per Matthew 15:34 and not the Gentiles as per Ephesians 3:1-3.  Andrew, Simon Peters brother had revelation of who Jesus was before Simon Peter met him as per ~ John 1:40, 41, 42.


  • 0
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blog: http://www.christian...e-of-the-myths/


#212
mjrhealth

mjrhealth

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3,215 posts

 

personal revelation from God

Really John wrote a whole book called revelation

 

Its what Jesus is building his Church on the bit you keep ignoring

 

Luk_10:21  In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

 

1Co_2:10  But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

 

So few

 

why

 

Rom_8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


Edited by mjrhealth, 16 February 2017 - 01:02 AM.

  • 0

The words that I SPEAK they are spirit and they are life. You search the scriptures, reading them thinking they bring you life, and they testify of Me yet you wont come to me so that you can have eternal life.


#213
tom55

tom55

    Love your neighbor as yourself

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,127 posts

I'm not saying that they all get it wrong. There are quite a few that get it wrong, and even when some get it right, people tend to misinterpret what it's actually saying. The translators are trying to make it sound normal, but the construction of the sentence in Greek is difficult to translate and still sound right.
 

This is probably the best sounding translation that actually gets it right. The problem is that people don't pay attention to what it actually says.

"Whose soever sins ye remit(this is the present tense), they are remitted ( this is the past tense)unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

This sounds the best, but the despite the fact that the phrase in is the future, the secondary clause is in the past perfect preterit. So having been remitted, and having been retained necessarily have to happen prior to them being presently remitted or retained. Whatever sins they will retain or remit in the future will have already been retained or remitted. That is literally what the sentence is stating. What sins you will retain will have already been retained is the most accurate and easily understood way to say it.

OK....I don't understand your conclusion on your translation of John so I will digress.

 

I understand that your not saying that they all get it wrong. You are only saying if they don't agree with YOUR translation then they got it wrong. So once again: How is YOUR translation right and everyone else wrong? How is YOUR interpretation right and anyone that disagrees with your interpretation wrong?


  • 0

#214
tom55

tom55

    Love your neighbor as yourself

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,127 posts

Hi tom55

 

 

Surely the flock that Jesus mentions to Peter was the lost sheep of Israel as per Matthew 15:34 and not the Gentiles as per Ephesians 3:1-3.  Andrew, Simon Peters brother had revelation of who Jesus was before Simon Peter met him as per ~ John 1:40, 41, 42.

Correct me if I am wrong but I think you meant Matthew 15:24, not 15:34 since the former is more in line with the subject at hand than the latter.

 

You are right when he says he has come to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Mt 15:24). But we have to look at ALL of scripture to reveal the fullness of the message and the fullness of our Christian faith.

 

Christ calls himself the Good Shepherd (Jn 10:11,14) and he uses the image of the Good Shepherd to refer to his own ministry. He is the divine Shepherd who fulfills Ezekiel’s prophecy (Luk 15), Hebrews calls Jesus the Great Shepherd of the Sheep (Heb 13:20), Peter calls Jesus the Shepherd and overseer of souls (1 Peter 2:25) and in the Book of Revelation the Lamb on the throne is also the Shepherd of the lost souls (Rev 7:17).

 

Throughout the Old Testament, God himself is understood to be the Good Shepherd and he promises to come and be the shepherd of his people through his servant David.

 

Jesus Christ, who is the Son of David, fulfills this prophecy and God’s promise is kept.

 

Peter will undertake the role of Good Shepherd in Christ’s place because Jesus COMMANDS Peter to take charge of his pastoral ministry.

After his Resurrection Jesus then instructs Peter AND ONLY PETER to "feed my lambs, watch over my sheep, feed my sheep" (Jn 21:15-17).

 

John 1:40-42 was not a personal revelation to Andrew. When we put the whole story in context we see that it was revealed to Andrew by John the Baptist: John was standing with two of his disciples and he looked at Jesus as he walked by and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God!” The two disciples heard him (John) say this, and they followed Jesus.."

 

Matthew 16:17 is a personal revelation directly from God to Peter AND Jesus calls Peter Blessed. Jesus, Peter and Mary are the only people in the NT that I can find that are directly called "blessed".

 

Jesus said: Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

 

Elizabeth....filled with the Holy Spirit....exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!

 

So not only was Peter called Blessed but he received a personal revelation from God which, once again, shows the importance of Peter in Christ ministry at the time.


 


  • 0

#215
kepha31

kepha31

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,080 posts

Hi tom55

 

 

Surely the flock that Jesus mentions to Peter was the lost sheep of Israel as per Matthew 15:34 and not the Gentiles as per Ephesians 3:1-3.  Andrew, Simon Peters brother had revelation of who Jesus was before Simon Peter met him as per ~ John 1:40, 41, 42.

Andrew identified Jesus as the Messiah, but is says nothing about a divine revelation. It could have been by deductive reasoning. Jesus did not change Andrew's name. When Jesus asked, "Who do you say I AM?" What did Andrew say? You are mixing different time frames and different callings to disprove Peter's primacy.  The Bible doesn't do that, You do it because it is a man made tradition to do so. Period.


  • 0
 
 

#216
mjrhealth

mjrhealth

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3,215 posts

 

The Bible doesn't do that, You do it because it is a man made tradition to do so. Period.

Are you not doing the same thing in reverse. One verse and your whole religion falls apart, We call ourselves christians because of Christ, you call yourselves catholics, why is that??

 

Is Christ divided???

 

Peter is not more important than Jesus nor any other of teh disciples, so why do you elevate his status so.?? He is not a God.....


Edited by mjrhealth, 16 February 2017 - 12:51 PM.

  • 0

The words that I SPEAK they are spirit and they are life. You search the scriptures, reading them thinking they bring you life, and they testify of Me yet you wont come to me so that you can have eternal life.


#217
kepha31

kepha31

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,080 posts
Are you not doing the same thing in reverse. One verse and your whole religion falls apart, We call ourselves christians because of Christ, you call yourselves catholics, why is that??

 

The doctrine of Peter's primacy is not based on one verse but several. It is also based on a living legacy.

"Catholic" comes from the Greek word "Katholicos" which is right out of the Bible, and "Catholic" and "Christian" has been used interchangeably since the 1st century, you just don't know any history.  Ignorance of history makes discussion with anti-Catholics rather tiresome.  The same details have to be explained over and over. Since you have no church to begin with you cannot identify with the Church of the first 3 centuries, and no anti-Catholic can either. 

 

 Is Christ divided???

 

No. Who separated from the historic Church in the first place? Doesn't Paul condemn division?

 

Peter is not more important than Jesus nor any other of teh disciples, so why do you elevate his status so.?? He is not a God.....

 

 

Quote me where I elevated Peter's status above Jesus, or stop making things up.


Edited by kepha31, 16 February 2017 - 04:21 PM.

  • 0
 
 

#218
mjrhealth

mjrhealth

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3,215 posts

 

No. Who separated from the historic Church in the first place? Doesn't Paul condemn division?

You should be able to answer that, this is a "christian" community you have divided it by "demonination". Is Christ divided, No He is not but men have divided teh body of Christ by there "doctrines", You elevated Peter to a higher status when your religion made Him into something he is not, This whole topic will not end untill our Lords return and all the "false Churches" the Harlot and her children finally have there eyes opened when they see the truth that is Christ Jesus,

 

You think you are rich and have it all but you are blind and naked and have nothing.


  • 0

The words that I SPEAK they are spirit and they are life. You search the scriptures, reading them thinking they bring you life, and they testify of Me yet you wont come to me so that you can have eternal life.


#219
BreadOfLife

BreadOfLife

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 245 posts

You should be able to answer that, this is a "christian" community you have divided it by "demonination". Is Christ divided, No He is not but men have divided teh body of Christ by there "doctrines", You elevated Peter to a higher status when your religion made Him into something he is not, This whole topic will not end untill our Lords return and all the "false Churches" the Harlot and her children finally have there eyes opened when they see the truth that is Christ Jesus,

 

You think you are rich and have it all but you are blind and naked and have nothing.

Uhhhhh, no - Protestants gave birth to "denominations" of Christianity.
This is precisely why we have almost 50,000 disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects - ALL teaching different doctrines yet ALL claiming to have the "Truth."

 

You're right about TWO things:

1.  Christ is not divided and neither should His Church be divided like the tens of thousands of Protestant sects.

2.  Your man made doctrines are not of God.


  • 0

"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." - G.K. Chesterton


#220
mjrhealth

mjrhealth

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3,215 posts

 

Uhhhhh, no - Protestants gave birth to "denominations" of Christianity.
This is precisely why we have almost 50,000 disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects - ALL teaching different doctrines yet ALL claiming to have the "Truth."

 

You're right about TWO things:

1.  Christ is not divided and neither should His Church be divided like the tens of thousands of Protestant sects.

2.  Your man made doctrines are not of God.

No His Church is not but mankind and all His denominations have rejected Christ for there own teaching, No denomination own God not even yours.And all the text highlighting in the world will not change that fact. Spelling correction made to not upset people.


  • 0

The words that I SPEAK they are spirit and they are life. You search the scriptures, reading them thinking they bring you life, and they testify of Me yet you wont come to me so that you can have eternal life.


#221
kepha31

kepha31

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,080 posts

shnarkle, on 16 Feb 2017 - 01:52 AM, said:
 

Now we've heard it all. What Christ says about himself isn't about him at all, but Peter? Yeah, that's it. That's really what this logic leads to ultimately. Peter is Christ. Peter's confession that Jesus is the Christ isn't exclusive to Christ at all, it includes Peter as well. Makes perfect sense to everything you've presented so far. At least you're being consistent in your logic.   

 

I never said anything about Jesus making reference only to Peter. You made that up. I said, "What Jesus says about Himself is not exclusive to what He says about Peter."  To re-phrase so you understand, what Jesus said about himself is not excluding Peter, which, it seems, you wish Peter would be entirely excluded. Then you might have a case.

 

BTW, "Kepha" is a new name, not a metaphor.


Edited by kepha31, 17 February 2017 - 06:27 AM.

  • 0
 
 

#222
kepha31

kepha31

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,080 posts

You should be able to answer that, this is a "christian" community you have divided it by "demonination". Is Christ divided, No He is not but men have divided teh body of Christ by there "doctrines", You elevated Peter to a higher status when your religion made Him into something he is not, This whole topic will not end untill our Lords return and all the "false Churches" the Harlot and her children finally have there eyes opened when they see the truth that is Christ Jesus,

 

You think you are rich and have it all but you are blind and naked and have nothing.

You have declared your own doctrine, which makes little sense since you have no community.


  • 0
 
 

#223
BreadOfLife

BreadOfLife

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 245 posts

No His Church is not but mankind and all His denominations have rejected Christ for there own teaching, No denomination own God not even yours.And all the text highlighting in the world will not change that fact. Spelling correction made to not upset people.

You're right - ALL of your denominations have rejected His teachings in one way or the other in favor of the doctrines and precepts of mere men.
 Jesus built ONE Church - not tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering Protestant sects . . .

 

PS - you missed a spelling correction (in RED).


Edited by BreadOfLife, 17 February 2017 - 11:46 AM.

  • 0

"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." - G.K. Chesterton


#224
mjrhealth

mjrhealth

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3,215 posts

 

You're right - ALL of your denominations have rejected His teachings in one way or the other in favor of the doctrines and precepts of mere men.
 Jesus built ONE Church - not tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering Protestant sects . . .

 

PS - you missed a spelling correction (in RED).

But funny how christianity rejects catholism because thy all know it is a lie, and it is history itself hat has declaared it an abomination. It is simply the way you divide the communtiy that makes it all so easy to see. When one talks about deception its amzing how deep it goes, The other day Tom was talking about apostatsy, well you should look at the australian news about the fortune your church has had to spend on compensating Gods children the innocent because of all the child molestation, but it is the anglicans and all the other demoninations too, for teh bible does declare

 

Rev_17:5  And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

 

Mother must be so proud of what she has done, oh capalisation was copy paste so dont blame me.

 

And it also declares

 

Luk_12:2  For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.

 

And the ugliness of teh great whore has being shown for all the world to see.

 

It  also says

 

1Co_6:16  What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

 

and

 

1Co_6:15  Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

 

after all teh abominatios she has done upon this earth yet you mock God by calling it our Lords church. You really have serious issues with who God is. And if you bellittiling me because of my typing well Jees teh devil himself has done worse.


Edited by mjrhealth, 17 February 2017 - 12:22 PM.

  • 0

The words that I SPEAK they are spirit and they are life. You search the scriptures, reading them thinking they bring you life, and they testify of Me yet you wont come to me so that you can have eternal life.


#225
BreadOfLife

BreadOfLife

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 245 posts

But funny how christianity rejects catholism because thy all know it is a lie, and it is history itself hat has declaared it an abomination. It is simply the way you divide the communtiy that makes it all so easy to see. When ione talks about deception its amzing how deep it goes, The other day Tom was talking about apostatsy, well you should look at the australian news about teh fortune your church has had to spens on compensation Gods children the innocnect because of aoo the child molestation, but it is teh anglicans and all teh othere demoninatios too, for teh bible does declare

 

Rev_17:5  And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

 

Mother must be so proud of what she has done, oh capalisation was copy paste so dont blame me.

 

And it also declares

Luk_12:2  For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.

 

And the ugliness of teh great whore has being shown for all the world to see.

 

It  also says

1Co_6:16  What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

 

and

1Co_6:15  Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

 

after all teh abominatios she has done upon this earth yet you mock God by calling it our Lords church. You really have serious issues with who Gid is. And if you bellittiling me becasue of my typing well Jees teh devil himself has done worse.

And, as long as YOU keep reading those Jack Chick tracts - you're never know the truth.  
You'll just be stuck in the sick and scary world of Jack Chick.

Most reputable Protestant scholars have long-abandoned these wacky notions about the Catholic Church being the "Whore of Babylon" except for the deeply disturbed people like Chick, and the delusional Dave Hunt.  Have fun wallowing in their abject ignorance . . .


  • 0

"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." - G.K. Chesterton


#226
mjrhealth

mjrhealth

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3,215 posts

 

You have declared your own doctrine, which makes little sense since you have no community.

none of it made up srtaight out of teh bible, unlike your doctrines straight from man.


  • 0

The words that I SPEAK they are spirit and they are life. You search the scriptures, reading them thinking they bring you life, and they testify of Me yet you wont come to me so that you can have eternal life.


#227
BreadOfLife

BreadOfLife

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 245 posts

none of it made up srtaight out of teh bible, unlike your doctrines straight from man.

Straight out of "teh" Bible, eh??

The Bible condemns your perverted brand of "Lone Ranger" Christianity (1 Cor. 12, Heb. 10:25, Col. 1:18).

 

So much for your twisted opinions about Scripture . . . 


  • 0

"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." - G.K. Chesterton


#228
FHII

FHII

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,046 posts
Somebody please put this thread out of its misery.
  • 0

#229
tom55

tom55

    Love your neighbor as yourself

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,127 posts

Somebody please put this thread out of its misery.

Is someone forcing you to read it? I suspect since there is heavy Catholic input it will be shut down.

 

Back to the subject at hand: Was Peter the rock that the Church was built upon? Scripture says......drum roll please........

 

....you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church,..... (NKJV)

 

That was easy to answer....... :popcorn: 


Edited by tom55, 17 February 2017 - 02:04 PM.

  • 0

#230
mjrhealth

mjrhealth

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3,215 posts

 

Somebody please put this thread out of its misery.

Yes please it will never end, teh devil just shouts louder the more teh truth comes out.


  • 0

The words that I SPEAK they are spirit and they are life. You search the scriptures, reading them thinking they bring you life, and they testify of Me yet you wont come to me so that you can have eternal life.


#231
mjrhealth

mjrhealth

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3,215 posts

 

The Bible condemns your perverted brand of "Lone Ranger" Christianity (1 Cor. 12, Heb. 10:25, Col. 1:18).

Isa_49:2  And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

 

Missed the mark again


  • 0

The words that I SPEAK they are spirit and they are life. You search the scriptures, reading them thinking they bring you life, and they testify of Me yet you wont come to me so that you can have eternal life.


#232
BreadOfLife

BreadOfLife

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 245 posts

Isa_49:2  And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

 

Missed the mark again

Another irrelevant response.

As I stated earlier - the Bible condemns your perverted brand of "Lone Ranger" Christianity (1 Cor. 12Heb. 10:25Col. 1:18).


  • 0

"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." - G.K. Chesterton


#233
mjrhealth

mjrhealth

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3,215 posts

 

As I stated earlier - the Bible condemns your perverted brand of "Lone Ranger" Christianity (1 Cor. 12Heb. 10:25Col. 1:18).

I gues Jeremiah and all te hprohpets would disagree with you


  • 0

The words that I SPEAK they are spirit and they are life. You search the scriptures, reading them thinking they bring you life, and they testify of Me yet you wont come to me so that you can have eternal life.


#234
BreadOfLife

BreadOfLife

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 245 posts

I gues Jeremiah and all te hprohpets would disagree with you

REALLY??

Jeremiah and the prophets were Christians??

 

The NEW Testament verses I presented speak of the Church - not Israel.


  • 0

"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." - G.K. Chesterton


#235
Jun2u

Jun2u

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 258 posts

Quote me where I elevated Peter's status above Jesus, or stop making things up.

 

The moment you claimed Peter is the Rock!!!!

 

 

"Catholic" comes from the Greek word "Katholicos" which is right out of the Bible, and "Catholic" and "Christian" has been used interchangeably since the 1st century, you just don't know any history.

I must have missed it somehow. Can you refer me to the scriptures where the word “Katholicos” is found?

 

The topic of the OP is, “Was Peter the Rock that the Church was built upon?”

 

I believe, I have answered the question of the OP by supplying with ample scriptures to prove that Jesus is the Rock of the Bible and none other, particularly Ps 18:30-31 which reads:

 

30 As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.

31 For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?

 

On the other hand, Catholics try to prove Peter is the rock via his primacy. It’s imperative for Catholics to prove Peter is their first pope/leader or the primacy cannot be handed down the line or inherited by the next pope BTW, this is not a bashing of Catholics rather it is to disprove the doctrines of the church you belong to.

 

It is irrelevant how Jesus addressed Peter in John 1:41-42 (which I first addressed in post192) whether in Aramaic, Hebrew, or Greek, Peter has not changed he is still the same Peter (a Rose by any other name is still a Rose”). Yourself have said that Jesus spoke in Aramaic therefore when He saw Peter He called him by his Aramaic name “Cephas” which means by interpretation A Stone. I believe Jesus said this of Peter so that there should be no misunderstanding of any kind about Peter’s personality. When a word or verse is doubled up in scriptures (in this case the word “interpretation”) the doubling up ot the word means it is bringing home a point.

 

For instance, the word “interpret” was used in Mt 1:23 to signify the deity of Jesus, we read: “Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being “interpreted” is, God with us. The name “Emmanuel” did not change Jesus’ personality He is always from everlasting to everlasting...God! This is how we compare scripture with scripture! No assumptions of truths just facts. Mt 1:23 was prophesied by the prophet Isaiah in Isa 7:14.

 

You have not proven your case with scripture references that Peter is the Rock except by inferences! In fact, no where in the Bible will you find Peter is the Rock, other than his name being interpreted “A Stone.”

 

You are in the market place peddling your false doctrines. The Bible warns, “if anyone preach another Jesus than that of the Bible, let him be accursed.” It is a scary thing to fall under the wrath of God.

 

To God Be The Glory

 

P.S.

The “binding” and “loosing” that Jesus supposedly gave to Peter as the keys to heaven was actually taken from Jo 20:21-23. No man can forgive sins except God even the Pharisees who were evil knew this.

 

Secondly, the church Jesus gave His life for is NOT an earthly church as you might want to believe rather a “Spiritual Church” where all true believers identify with sometimes called the “Bride” “the New City Jerusalem” “Israel of God” “My people” and “the elect.”


  • 0

#236
BreadOfLife

BreadOfLife

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 245 posts

The moment you claimed Peter is the Rock!!!!
 
I must have missed it somehow. Can you refer me to the scriptures where the word “Katholicos” is found?
 
The topic of the OP is, “Was Peter the Rock that the Church was built upon?”
 
I believe, I have answered the question of the OP by supplying with ample scriptures to prove that Jesus is the Rock of the Bible and none other, particularly Ps 18:30-31 which reads:
 
30 As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.
31 For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?
 
On the other hand, Catholics try to prove Peter is the rock via his primacy. It’s imperative for Catholics to prove Peter is their first pope/leader or the primacy cannot be handed down the line or inherited by the next pope BTW, this is not a bashing of Catholics rather it is to disprove the doctrines of the church you belong to.
 
It is irrelevant how Jesus addressed Peter in John 1:41-42 (which I first addressed in post192) whether in Aramaic, Hebrew, or Greek, Peter has not changed he is still the same Peter (a Rose by any other name is still a Rose”). Yourself have said that Jesus spoke in Aramaic therefore when He saw Peter He called him by his Aramaic name “Cephas” which means by interpretation A Stone. I believe Jesus said this of Peter so that there should be no misunderstanding of any kind about Peter’s personality. When a word or verse is doubled up in scriptures (in this case the word “interpretation”) the doubling up ot the word means it is bringing home a point.
 
 
For instance, the word “interpret” was used in Mt 1:23 to signify the deity of Jesus, we read: “Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being “interpreted” is, God with us. The name “Emmanuel” did not change Jesus’ personality He is always from everlasting to everlasting...God! This is how we compare scripture with scripture! No assumptions of truths just facts. Mt 1:23 was prophesied by the prophet Isaiah in Isa 7:14.
 
You have not proven your case with scripture references that Peter is the Rock except by inferences! In fact, no where in the Bible will you find Peter is the Rock, other than his name being interpreted “A Stone.”
 
You are in the market place peddling your false doctrines. The Bible warns, “if anyone preach another Jesus than that of the Bible, let him be accursed.” It is a scary thing to fall under the wrath of God.
 
To God Be The Glory
 
P.S.
 
The “binding” and “loosing” that Jesus supposedly gave to Peter as the keys to heaven was actually taken from Jo 20:21-23. No man can forgive sins except God even the Pharisees who were evil knew this.
 
 
Secondly, the church Jesus gave His life for is NOT an earthly church as you might want to believe rather a “Spiritual Church” where all true believers identify with sometimes called the “Bride” “the New City Jerusalem” “Israel of God” “My people” and “the elect.”

WRONG on all counts.
 
First of all - Jesus is NOT the only one in the Bible who is referred to as the "Rock":
 
Isa. 51:1 calls Abraham the "Rock."
Matt. 21:42 calls Jesus the "Rock."
Matt. 16:18 calls Peter the "Rock."
 
All three of them are the Rock, depending on how you are using the word:
Abraham is the Rock from which the Jews were hewn.
Jesus is the Stone that was rejected by the builders (Jews) that became the chief cornerstone.
Peter is the rock on which Jesus built His Church.
 
In Matt  16-18, we see where Jesus calls Peter "Kepha", which is the Aramaic word for ROCK.  This is why Paul reefers to Peter as "Cephas" in his letters, which is the Greek transliteration of Aramaic Kepha.  Paul never refers to Jesus as Cephas or Peter's confession of faith as Cephas.

 

Rev 21:14 talks about the 12 foundations of Heaven - and they have the names of the APOSTLES written on them.

 

Finally - as to your question about the Greek roots for the term "Catholic Church" - Acts 9:31 talks about how the Early Church grew throughout the region.  The language used here describes the Catholic Church:

“Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee, and Samaria experienced peace and thus was strengthened. Living in the fear of the Lord and in the encouragement of the Holy Spirit, the church increased in numbers.”

According to Strong’s Greek Concordance – the verse is translated as:
“The true Church throughout all Judea . . .”

Here is the phrase in Greek:

η μεν ουν εκκλησια καθ ολης της ιουδαιας

The Catholic Church gets its name from the GREEK for “according to the whole” and “universal” - εκκλησια καθ ολης, which is pronounced “ekklesia katah-holos”.

 

Εκκλησια (ekklesia)  - A gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly; CHURCH

Καθ (katah) - Through out, according to

Ολης (holos) - All, whole, completely

"Ekklesia Kata-holos" = CATHOLIC CHURCH.


  • 0

"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." - G.K. Chesterton


#237
mjrhealth

mjrhealth

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3,215 posts

 

Ekklesia Kata-holos" = CATHOLIC CHURCH.

Twisting scripture so good at it


  • 0

The words that I SPEAK they are spirit and they are life. You search the scriptures, reading them thinking they bring you life, and they testify of Me yet you wont come to me so that you can have eternal life.


#238
mjrhealth

mjrhealth

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3,215 posts

Ecclesia for those like me who are not so smart

 

http://www.aggressiv...es/ecclesia.htm


  • 0

The words that I SPEAK they are spirit and they are life. You search the scriptures, reading them thinking they bring you life, and they testify of Me yet you wont come to me so that you can have eternal life.


#239
kepha31

kepha31

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,080 posts
The moment you claimed Peter is the Rock!!!!

 

Jesus said Peter is the Rock, I've listed dozens of PROTESTANT scholars that agree. Your grammatical understanding is outdated.

 

 

The topic of the OP is, “Was Peter the Rock that the Church was built upon?”

 

 

Jesus does the building, we are not saying otherwise.. He doesn't build junk that needs rebuilding by human opinion 15 centuries later. 

 

I believe, I have answered the question of the OP by supplying with ample scriptures to prove that Jesus is the Rock of the Bible and none other, particularly Ps 18:30-31 which reads:

 

30 As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.

31 For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?

 

Several words in scripture can have more than one meaning, and you don't explain why Jesus changed Simon bar Jonah's name to ROCK, which isn't even a name at the time. 

On the other hand, Catholics try to prove Peter is the rock via his primacy. It’s imperative for Catholics to prove Peter is their first pope/leader or the primacy cannot be handed down the line or inherited by the next pope BTW, this is not a bashing of Catholics rather it is to disprove the doctrines of the church you belong to.

 

 

We don't have to prove anything.  We KNOW. Succession of popes is not just a belief, it is a HISTORICAL FACT.

 

It is irrelevant how Jesus addressed Peter in John 1:41-42 (which I first addressed in post192) whether in Aramaic, Hebrew, or Greek, Peter has not changed he is still the same Peter (a Rose by any other name is still a Rose”). Yourself have said that Jesus spoke in Aramaic therefore when He saw Peter He called him by his Aramaic name “Cephas” which means by interpretation A Stone. I believe Jesus said this of Peter so that there should be no misunderstanding of any kind about Peter’s personality. When a word or verse is doubled up in scriptures (in this case the word “interpretation”) the doubling up ot the word means it is bringing home a point.

 

Aramaic is not irrelevant, it is the language Jesus spoke. The original language clarifies a secondary translation and that is why you don't like it. Greek is a secondary translation, it is not a divine language. You have based your doctrine on constructive pronouns that don't exist in the language Jesus spoke. Again, I have posted lists of Protestant scholars that don't agree with you. Your approach is outdated.

 

You have not proven your case with scripture references that Peter is the Rock except by inferences! In fact, no where in the Bible will you find Peter is the Rock, other than his name being interpreted “A Stone.”

 

What does the name "Peter" mean?

You are in the market place peddling your false doctrines. The Bible warns, “if anyone preach another Jesus than that of the Bible, let him be accursed.” It is a scary thing to fall under the wrath of God.

"Bible" is not in the Bible.

 

The “binding” and “loosing” that Jesus supposedly gave to Peter as the keys to heaven was actually taken from Jo 20:21-23. No man can forgive sins except God even the Pharisees who were evil knew this.

 

 

John 20:21-23 says the opposite:.

 

21 Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.’ 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’

 

Jesus never quoted from John's gospel, the keys have nothing to do with forgiving sins, and Jesus refers the keys from Isa. 22. Binding and loosing is a rabbinal term and everyone at the time understood what it meant. "Jesus supposedly gave to Peter" ??? Can you be that biblically illiterate?

 

Matt. 16:19 - Jesus gives Peter the "keys of the kingdom of heaven." While most Protestants argue that the kingdom of heaven Jesus was talking about is the eternal state of glory (as if Peter is up in heaven letting people in), the kingdom of heaven Jesus is speaking of actually refers to the Church on earth. In using the term "keys," Jesus was referencing Isaiah 22 (which is the only place in the Bible where keys are used in the context of a kingdom).

 

Isaiah 22:22 - in the old Davidic kingdom, there were royal ministers who conducted the liturgical worship and bound the people in teaching and doctrine. But there was also a Prime Minister or chief steward of the kingdom who held the keys. Jesus gives Peter these keys to His earthly kingdom, the Church. This representative has decision-making authority over the people - when he shuts, no one opens. See also Job 12:14.

 

Rev. 1:18; 3:7; 9:1; 20:1 - Jesus' "keys" undeniably represent authority. By using the word "keys," Jesus gives Peter authority on earth over the new Davidic kingdom, and this was not seriously questioned by anyone until the Protestant reformation 1,500 years later after Peter’s investiture.

 

Matt. 16:19 - whatever Peter binds or looses on earth is bound or loosed in heaven / when the Prime Minister to the King opens, no one shuts. This "binding and loosing" authority allows the keeper of the keys to establish "halakah," or rules of conduct for the members of the kingdom he serves.

 

Secondly, the church Jesus gave His life for is NOT an earthly church as you might want to believe rather a “Spiritual Church” where all true believers identify with sometimes called the “Bride” “the New City Jerusalem” “Israel of God” “My people” and “the elect.”

 

A purely spiritual church is a Protestant invention, it's not in the Bible. The Body of Christ is both those in heaven and on earth. It would be impossible to feed, cloth, house, educate and provide medal care for more people than the world's largest charity if the Church was just spiritual. It would be impossible for "invisible" Early Church Fathers to discern the canon of Scripture in 397 unless they compiled an invisible Bible. They made infallible rulings on the Trinity at the councils of Nicae, Ephesus, and Chalcedon (that is even accepted by most Protestants) that would have been impossible without a Pope. It would be impossible to have a Bible in the first place if it were not for Tradition and papal authority, which makes sola scriptura so illogical and contradictory.

 

 

1340313.png


Edited by kepha31, Yesterday, 10:00 PM.

  • 0
 
 

#240
mjrhealth

mjrhealth

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3,215 posts

 

A purely spiritual church is a Protestant invention, it's not in the Bible

Joh_4:23  But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh_4:24  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Joh_14:17  Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh_15:26  But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh_16:13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

 

Joh_1:12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Act_2:17  And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Rom_8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom_8:19  For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

 

we teh people of this world who have accepted Chirst as Lord and saviour are His church or as he put it

 

Mar 10:42  But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Mar 10:43  But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
Mar 10:44  And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
Mar 10:45  For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many

 

or as God put it

 

1Sa 8:6  But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
1Sa 8:7  And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

 

mankind still rejecting Jesus and quiet happily at that


  • 0

The words that I SPEAK they are spirit and they are life. You search the scriptures, reading them thinking they bring you life, and they testify of Me yet you wont come to me so that you can have eternal life.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users