[Surf Rider]

kestrel, on 21 December 2009 - 08:35 AM, said:

Sorry, I just don't understand your position. It's pretty contradictory. Was he or wasn't He?

And again, the Trinity is a model to explain how Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father can all be God and yet be one. It's not in the Bible, but developed to explain this truth of the Bible.

By the way, what do you understand by "person"?

Defining person was/is proper. My previous post addresses the opposing stances on it. Hopefully it made sense. Sometimes my reasoning can be kind of goofy, I fear.

The church does not use it as a model: it uses it as the definition of the Godhead. I hold that the bible gives it's own true models of God. I also hold that it is applicable and prudent for us to take those models and fit our understanding of God into them, else why on earth did God give them to us in the first place? Pretty simple logic on that one. So, for starters on this topic, can anyone here give some of the models in the scriptures that God has EXPRESSLY stated are models of God's being? Once that is done, there are those models in the Word that are not expressly stated to be so, but are given as such. Can anyone here give some of those models?

It would be downright foolish to bring forth from the Word that which we consider models of God, that are not expressly stated to be such, at the outset, as that is trying to understand quantum physics in order to understand high school physics --- totally backwards and with the overwhelming propensity to come to very erroneous and completely non-functional conclusions. So let's start with the clearly stated, then progress to the examples given otherwise, and then go to the passages that would rely solely upon spiritual wisdom/insight based upon a mature, solid understanding of the Word in the other types given.

Anybody wth me on this?

[Surf Rider]

Nomad, on 12 December 2009 - 03:53 PM, said:

Once again Benoni, you're way off-topic with your hobbyhorse doctrine. Allow me to assist you. The question at hand here is, is faith alone God's appointed appropriating instrument for justification or is it faith + works? Could it be that works and obedience are rather the fruit or result of faith as Scripture saith?


Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The language used in this post is meant to denigrate. Shame on you.

Then, Benoni reciprocats. Shame on you, too.

From here on out, this thread has improper interaction. I was brought to this site by another, on the basis that this stuff doesn't happen here. Let's can the persoanlly derogatory stuff, OK? I think that some apologies are in order from a few people here. Let's hold to a good standard, shall we? Thanks.

Adstar, on 09 December 2009 - 07:13 AM, said:

• 
  
  God is perfect.
  He can only accept a Perfect creation to exist with Him in Eternity.
  Therefore to have eternity with God we must become perfect.
  We are not perfect.
  We cannot achieve perfection
  We can only be changed into a perfect state by Gods intervention.
  This intervention can never be earned.
  It must be a gift.
  So if we are transformed into a perfect state then there can be no boasting on our part.
  Therefore all Glory and Honour rests with God who has achieved the Redemption of His creation by His own Works.
  
  Therefore our works while we do them out of Love for God and Love for our Neighbour.
  And our efforts to resist sin while being noble showing agreement with the will of God.
  Can never reach a point of perfection that would justify eternity with God on their own merit.
  
  Therefore all talk of Works earning ones eternity with God is nothing but the pride of man striving to earn self-justification.
  
  
  The gift of salvation from God can only be a gift if it is not payed for. Once you pay for a gift then the gift becomes a payment. Indeed seeking to pay for the gift is an insult to the gift Giver. How would you feel if you when through hell on earth to obtain a gift for someone you love and for them to turn around and offer money for it?
  
  
  All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Some very faulty reasoning evidenced here, regarding God being perfect so we must be also.
God is omnicient. Must we be also?
God is omnipotent. Must we be also?
God is I AM. Must we be also?

Shall I go on?!!!

Then, there is much doctrine based upon this faulty premise. That's not good. If the foundation is wrong, the structure upon it MUST ALSO BE WRONG.

[kestrel]

Surf Rider, on 22 December 2009 - 07:39 AM, said:

He is saying that God is NOT a "being who is able to THINK and EXPRESS itself, having independent existence" as three. He is saying that God is one. That's it. If that be true, then it must be decried regarding there being 3 as God.

To be honest, I'm not yet sure of what's exactly his position.

I understand the feeling. Just two boring guys playing with the definition of some word instead of going to debate the topic. I dislike that too. To be very open I've been through internet debates of all sorts and I have very little hope in them. Specially when we go to dictionary definitions as such are not always appropiate to such a specific field as Christology. Yet here, the concept person was developed by Boethius precisely to, however imperfectly, be able to say something about the nature of God. The modern sense of human being was developed much later.

I'm aware that God cannot be constrained by a human definition in human language. What's more both Levinas and Buber proved without the shadow of a doubt that not even a human soul can be reduced to concepts or ideas. But unfortunately, we only have the tools of human reason and language to be able to express anything.

So the question is unavoidable. If (I honestly don't know) Benoni agrees that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are A) BEING and ABLE TO THINK and C) OF INDEPENDENT EXISTENCE then we could move to some other matter.

Surf Rider, on 22 December 2009 - 08:15 AM, said:

The church does not use it as a model: it uses it as the definition of the Godhead. I hold that the bible gives it's own true models of God. I also hold that it is applicable and prudent for us to take those models and fit our understanding of God into them, else why on earth did God give them to us in the first place? Pretty simple logic on that one. So, for starters on this topic, can anyone here give some of the models in the scriptures that God has EXPRESSLY stated are models of God's being? Once that is done, there are those models in the Word that are not expressly stated to be so, but are given as such. Can anyone here give some of those models?

It would be downright foolish to bring forth from the Word that which we consider models of God, that are not expressly stated to be such, at the outset, as that is trying to understand quantum physics in order to understand high school physics --- totally backwards and with the overwhelming propensity to come to very erroneous and completely non-functional conclusions. So let's start with the clearly stated, then progress to the examples given otherwise, and then go to the passages that would rely solely upon spiritual wisdom/insight based upon a mature, solid understanding of the Word in the other types given.

Anybody wth me on this?

Some of your questions would need books to be properly addressed. :-)

As for definitions, I hold that they can't be anything but models, approximations that can never totally define God.

[kestrel]

I think it would be a good idea to open a separate thread on the question of Trinity

[Benoni]

kestrel, on 22 December 2009 - 06:25 AM, said:

It's not how I WANT to define anything, the problem is that you have no idea of what person means in theology. Sorry to be blunt, but you persist in your mistake but saying that "God is a spirit not a person or three persons". You can be both a person and a spirit. A Person is (again) any being who is able to THINK and EXPRESS itself, having independent existence.

Where do you get thei "person"? It is not a matter of theology, there are ten thousand theologial mindsets, it is a matter of God's Word. I never said God is a person, three persons, that is your assumption based on man made theology and not God's Divine Word.

[kestrel]

Benoni, on 22 December 2009 - 02:25 PM, said:

Where do you get thei "person"? It is not a matter of theology, there are ten thousand theologial mindsets, it is a matter of God's Word. I never said God is a person, three persons, that is your assumption based on man made theology and not God's Divine Word.

1. I don't know what you mean by thei "person" ¿?

2. However it was a Theologian (Boethius) who, in Greek, defined the word person, precisely to speak about the nature of God. Person as to meant human being came only much later.

3. I know you have never said that God is a person.

4. It's not my assumption. It is my opinion that the trinitarian model is the one which can better answer the question of how can God be one, and yet the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit be God.

5. One of those thousands of theologian mindsets is yours. Everybody looks at God from his own perspective. That is unavoidable.

[Miss Hepburn]

Well, my definition of a person, of course, would go along the lines of the great mind of Jean-Luc Picard.
A "being" would be anything in any shape, size or FORM that can feel.

[WhiteKnuckle]

God as a person,,,

God does have human qualities, such as strengths, and weaknesses, and emotion, and humor, and can think. However, since God has those qualities, that doesn't make him a "person" as in a human. It only makes sense that we have those qualities because that's the way God made us. We're created in His image. That doesn't just mean bodily form, but in function as well, head, body, arms, legs, fingers, feet. But, also, in the complexities of emotion, thought, personality, reasoning, humar, sadness, etc

But, to equate God with being a person or human as most people would understand the meanings of the words,, I don't think it right, because we have flaws, and our weaknesses our our downfall. God is perfect without flaw and without sin. God is also just and holy.

I think maybe we're splitting hairs, as a person doesn't mean human specificaly. Person means a seperate identity or entity.

We don't need books and books and ideas and pages to define any of this or to understand. The subject seems more complicated than it is.

[kestrel]

WhiteKnuckle, on 22 December 2009 - 05:08 PM, said:

God as a person,,,

God does have human qualities, such as strengths, and weaknesses, and emotion, and humor, and can think. However, since God has those qualities, that doesn't make him a "person" as in a human. It only makes sense that we have those qualities because that's the way God made us. We're created in His image. That doesn't just mean bodily form, but in function as well, head, body, arms, legs, fingers, feet. But, also, in the complexities of emotion, thought, personality, reasoning, humar, sadness, etc

But, to equate God with being a person or human as most people would understand the meanings of the words,, I don't think it right, because we have flaws, and our weaknesses our our downfall. God is perfect without flaw and without sin. God is also just and holy.

I think maybe we're splitting hairs, as a person doesn't mean human specificaly. Person means a seperate identity or entity.

We don't need books and books and ideas and pages to define any of this or to understand. The subject seems more complicated than it is.

The concept "person" was first developed for God. Only later was applied to humans. Really.

From Wikipedia

Persons and personhood are also concepts used in the early Christian theological tradition, during the first centuries A.D. by the Church Fathers. The very concept of person (prosopon in Greek) was the result of a theological dispute, how God, according to the Christian (Orthodox) teaching, can be One and three at the same time. Further explication of the problem led to the formulation that there is one substance (or being) and three subsistences (hypostases): God Father, God Son and God Holy Spirit, but still just one God, not three. This theological concept of the person as something that has a specific identity and holds the fullness of being, was applied to the human being as well. The Church Fathers interpreted the "icon of God" in man as human ability to exist as a person, having his/her own unique identity in communion with other persons. Later in the West the concept was translated into Latin as persona and was explained by Boethius and St. Augustine as something characterized by rational capacities.

[TallMan]

I just read Hebrews 11 then straight into James . .. the message couldn't be clearer . .if you really have faith you will do what God tells you to do.

In this new testament age this means to obey the instructions to repent, be baptised and receive God's Spirit, as detailed in scripture and allow God's Spirit to minister top you and through you to build with that sort of church.

Any other faith may be well-meaning but is "dead" towards God.

[farouk]

The end of Matt. 28 refers to Father, Son and Holy Spirit. John's Gospel, parlticularly chapters 13 to 17, does too. So does the First Epistle of John.

[Butch5]

Adstar, on 15 December 2009 - 01:16 AM, said:

Then bring forth the resion for your statement. Otherwise it is just a statement based on ? 



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Sorry, I hadn't seen this post.


Romans 2:5-10 ( KJV )
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:


John 5:27-29 ( KJV )
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Hebrews 5:7-9 ( KJV )
Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Matthew 25:31-46 ( KJV )
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


James 2:20-24 ( KJV )
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

[farouk]

Also:

Ephesians 2.8&9 says salvation is 'by grace', 'through faith', 'not of works'.

[horsecamp]

Because Faith is the beggars hand that reaches out and receives all of Gods blessed benefits
of Christ his perfect work and innocent death in our sinful stead .

Through faith in Jesus who defeated sin death and the devil for us we receive eternal life and bliss in heaven with him .

Being with Jesus our only savior from our sins is the best part of all of Gods blessed gifts .
yet they are other gifts as well seeing old friends and family again, who also have died in the true faith in Jesus .
And having all our tears and fears wiped away By our savior God for ever.
and many more free and woderful gifts God has prepared for us as well For the sake of his Son
Who was the only God who was God enough! to win FORGIVNESS and heaven for us , All by Himself
and perfectly .
for God will not accept anything but perfect works.
Mathew 5:48

[fivesense]

Miss Hepburn, on 07 December 2009 - 11:25 PM, said:

Now, what I'm aiming for is not necessarily for verses.
I mean in your heart - in your understanding of God 's Heart...

Why? Why is it so simple - why is it we just have to have faith in His Son?

Thank you, I look forward to your posts,
Miss Hepburn

Hi,
Once, a guy came to my door and convinced me to buy a vacuum cleaner. He said it did everything, state of the art, guaranteed to last forever, a million horsepower, etc.. I believed him. I was sure what he said was true. I didn't know him from Adam, but something appealed to me, so I went for it and signed on the dotted line. It didn't work out that way, and he extracted a large sum of money from me on the promises he made.

Once, I read about a man that died on a cross. He came and knocked at the door of my heart. He said He would do everything I needed to clean my "house". He said He sealed the promise with His blood, and I believed Him. I didn't have to sign on the line anywhere, or promise to pay Him a dime for His offering. I believed Him. It has worked out exactly like He said it would, and that has kept me coming back to Him for His goods, the Holy Spirit. Best deal I've ever made, I'll tell ya.
fivesense

[forgivenWretch]

fivesense, on 14 March 2010 - 06:50 PM, said:

Hi,
Once, a guy came to my door and convinced me to buy a vacuum cleaner. He said it did everything, state of the art, guaranteed to last forever, a million horsepower, etc.. I believed him. I was sure what he said was true. I didn't know him from Adam, but something appealed to me, so I went for it and signed on the dotted line. It didn't work out that way, and he extracted a large sum of money from me on the promises he made.

Once, I read about a man that died on a cross. He came and knocked at the door of my heart. He said He would do everything I needed to clean my "house". He said He sealed the promise with His blood, and I believed Him. I didn't have to sign on the line anywhere, or promise to pay Him a dime for His offering. I believed Him. It has worked out exactly like He said it would, and that has kept me coming back to Him for His goods, the Holy Spirit. Best deal I've ever made, I'll tell ya.
fivesense

Awesome post fivesense!!

[Butch5]

farouk, on 14 March 2010 - 10:26 PM, said:

Also:

Ephesians 2.8&9 says salvation is 'by grace', 'through faith', 'not of works'.

That's true, however upon reading further we see what Paul means here by works.

Ephesians 2:8-16 ( KJV )
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

When we read that passage in context we see that Paul is speaking of the works of the Mosaic law. It is these that do not save.

[horsecamp]

Benoni, on 18 December 2009 - 03:40 PM, said:

Of course Jesus is God.  God manifested in the flesh.  God is one not three persons.  Give me one verse of scripture that declares Jesus is the second person of the trinity?  Or better yet, that God is made up of three persons.  I can give you all kinds of verses that declare God is one, just ask me  NO PROBLEM.  Just ask any Jew. 

Scripture talks about the Holy Spirit being a person . He even turned and fought against the people .
Isaiah 63:10

if the Holy Spirit is not a person one could not grieve him. Ephesians 4:30



Take a look at what Jesus said of him. Matthew 12:32

and take a look at these verses also Mathew 1:18 Matthew 3:16
Matthew 11:2


Titus 3:5
Matthew 28:19
2 Corinthians 13:14


The Holy Spirit is God
He is eternal Hebrews 9:14
Has Divine knoweldge 1 corinthians 2:10

He is Omnipresent

Psalm 139:7-8


Jesus addreses person hood of himself and the Father BY SAYING " I " refering to himself , and "you" refering to his Father. John 17:6


and also check John 15:26 Jesus addresses the personhood OF all three. His Father His self the Holy Spirit.

IF one studys the bible closly all three persons were not only active in the creation process they were clearly there from
eternity.Gen 1:26

The bible clearly teaches, A God Triune in nature that is so big he cannot fit into our minds..


Others teach a god small enough to fit into our minds and there fore not much of a god at all.

[farouk]

Butch5, on 15 March 2010 - 01:57 AM, said:

That's true, however upon reading further we see what Paul means here by works.

Ephesians 2:8-16 ( KJV )
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

When we read that passage in context we see that Paul is speaking of the works of the Mosaic law. It is these that do not save.

If you are arguing that works, or baptismal rites, etc, earn merit with God, then I don't see that in Scripture. (Not sure what you mean, anyway.)

[Butch5]

farouk, on 15 March 2010 - 02:31 AM, said:

If you are arguing that works, or baptismal rites, etc, earn merit with God, then I don't see that in Scripture. (Not sure what you mean, anyway.)

I am not talking about earning merit with God. I was referring to the OP. We are not saved by faith alone.

[farouk]

Butch5, on 15 March 2010 - 03:42 PM, said:

I am not talking about earning merit with God. I was referring to the OP. We are not saved by faith alone.

Well, if that's what you mean, I don't agree with the OP, if that's how you interpret it. Ephesians 2 says, 'not of works, lest any man should boast'. James gives the qualification that 'faith without works is dead', but it's not inconsistent with what Paul teaches about saving faith.

[ronniechoate34]

Miss Hepburn, on 08 December 2009 - 01:25 AM, said:

Now, what I'm aiming for is not necessarily for verses.
I mean in your heart - in your understanding of God 's Heart...

Why? Why is it so simple - why is it we just have to have faith in His Son?

Thank you, I look forward to your posts,
Miss Hepburn

Faith without works is dead.

[farouk]

ronniechoate34, on 15 March 2010 - 04:58 PM, said:

Faith without works is dead.

Mr / Ms r:

Well, exactly.

[Miss Hepburn]

fivesense, on 14 March 2010 - 04:50 PM, said:

Hi,
Once, a guy came to my door and convinced me to buy a vacuum cleaner. He said it did everything, state of the art, guaranteed to last forever, a million horsepower, etc.. I believed him. I was sure what he said was true. I didn't know him from Adam, but something appealed to me, so I went for it and signed on the dotted line. It didn't work out that way, and he extracted a large sum of money from me on the promises he made.

Once, I read about a man that died on a cross. He came and knocked at the door of my heart. He said He would do everything I needed to clean my "house". He said He sealed the promise with His blood, and I believed Him. I didn't have to sign on the line anywhere, or promise to pay Him a dime for His offering. I believed Him. It has worked out exactly like He said it would, and that has kept me coming back to Him for His goods, the Holy Spirit. Best deal I've ever made, I'll tell ya.
fivesense

HI!
Laptop's still down - at a friend's every few days ----this was a great post- you are right - it has worked out exactly
as He said.

However, the basic question is still
"why"? Why is it that faith is all we need?

[farouk]

Miss Hepburn, on 16 March 2010 - 12:25 AM, said:

HI!
Laptop's still down - at a friend's every few days ----this was a great post- you are right - it has worked out exactly
as He said.

However, the basic question is still
"why"? Why is it that faith is all we need?

Romans 11.6 has the answer. It must be by grace. Otherwise we are not depending entirely on God's unmerited favor, which are the circumstances under which He is prepared to save sinners. We need to let God be the One who decides how He chooses to save, through Christ.

[horsecamp]

Butch5, on 15 March 2010 - 03:42 PM, said:

I am not talking about earning merit with God. I was referring to the OP. We are not saved by faith alone.

If the baptismal rights come from scripture and a person really believes scripture is God Breathed .Then the baptimal rights are Not the merits of humans.


if a pastor preaches a sermon of law that shows our sins and the Gospel that shows our savior Jesus and a person comes to faith through that sermon .. its not because of the merits of the human pastor who used his voice , its Gods messaage Gods merits that brought the person to faith .Romans 16:17

A pastor uses his voice and hands to perform a baptism but its not his merits that cause a christian baptism to have taken place either .

its Christs


Matthew 28:18-20
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

[farouk]

horsecamp, on 16 March 2010 - 02:38 AM, said:

If the baptismal rights come from scripture and a person really believes scripture is God Breathed .Then the baptimal rights are Not the merits of humans.


if a pastor preaches a sermon of law that shows our sins and the Gospel that shows our savior Jesus and a person comes to faith through that sermon .. its not because of the merits of the human pastor who used his voice , its Gods messaage Gods merits that brought the person to faith .Romans 16:17

A pastor uses his voice and hands to perform a baptism but its not his merits that cause a christian baptism to have taken place either .

its Christs


Matthew 28:18-20
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

...but you sound like as if baptism, which is symbolic, supposedly confers some merit through the water, rather than being a sign of identification with the buried, and risen Christ.

[shmity72]

to truly understand faith is not going to save one. One must have faith IN the resurection of christ...for our sins. I think that's how it goes, more or less.

[Tambora]

Acts 17
(11) These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.



Very good advice for us all.
If you really want to know what biblical faith is, search the scriptures.
The scriptures they searched were the Old Testament books.

The phrase in the New Testament - "The just shall live by faith" (Rom 1:17, Gal 3:11, Heb 10:38) is quoted from the Old Testament.

Habakkuk 2
(4) Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

The word translated “faith” is emunah in Hebrew.
The Hebrew word is H530.
If you have a concordance, search all the places that H530 is used and you will get a firm handle on what faith truly is.

It will help to better understand when we read in the New Testament
- that faith without works is dead (James 2:17, 20, 26).
- that we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH (Ephesians 2:8).
- that faith is the SUBSTANCE (Hebrews 11:1).

[farouk]

Tambora, on 18 March 2010 - 05:04 PM, said:

Acts 17
(11) These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.



Very good advice for us all.
If you really want to know what biblical faith is, search the scriptures.
The scriptures they searched were the Old Testament books.

The phrase in the New Testament - "The just shall live by faith" (Rom 1:17, Gal 3:11, Heb 10:38) is quoted from the Old Testament.

Habakkuk 2
(4) Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

The word translated “faith” is emunah in Hebrew.
The Hebrew word is H530.
If you have a concordance, search all the places that H530 is used and you will get a firm handle on what faith truly is.

It will help to better understand when we read in the New Testament
- that faith without works is dead (James 2:17, 20, 26).
- that we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH (Ephesians 2:8).
- that faith is the SUBSTANCE (Hebrews 11:1).

Yes, Ms T. Faith is the operative principle, right?

Hebrews 11, with its many Old Testament allusions, keeps stressing: 'By faith...', 'By faith..'

Take care.