[Lebanon]

In the beginning God the Word created the heavens and the earth. And the world became formless and desolate with darkness.

'Why was the earth without form and void with darkness over the face of the deep after its creation?'

[whirlwind]

Lebanon, on 19 January 2010 - 04:28 PM, said:

In the beginning God the Word created the heavens and the earth. And the world became formless and desolate with darkness.

'Why was the earth without form and void with darkness over the face of the deep after its creation?'

Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else

It was first formed....Satan rebelled and is the "darkness over the face of the deep"....that age was destroyed and now.....we are in this new earth age.


Editing in....Wecome to the forum! I'm glad you're here.

[HammerStone]

We actually have a study that touches on this very topic: http://www.christian...es-bible-study/

The short answer is that it was not created that way, but became that way as the Hebrew will bare out.

[Lebanon]

And God said, "let there be light" and there was light in the darkness, and he called the light day and the darkness night, this was the first day. The second day, he created the sky to seperate the waters in heaven from those on earth. And gathered them together beneath the sky into oceans so that the dry land would emerge; and then made grow on it all sorts of plants on the third day. The fourth day he created the sun, the moon and the stars in the sky. The fifth day, he commanded the seas to teem with many kinds of living beings and all sorts of fowl in the expanse of the sky; and he blessed them to reproduce and fill the waters and the earth, increasing in number. On the sixth day he created all sorts of animal on the earth and then he made man in his image to rule over everything he created, and blessed them to be fruitful and to multiply. And God blessed and hallowed the seventh day because on it he rested from his work.

'should we also honor the seventh day?'

'Should we also honor the sabbath?'

[HammerStone]

We should honor the sabbath, but not above the Lord of the Sabbath!

[Lebanon]

Then God planted a garden Eastward in Eden and placed the man in it. In the middle of the garden stood the tree of life and the tree of conscience giving knowledge of good and bad.

How could a tree give life ? what life is it talking about ?
How could a tree give knowledge ?

[Benoni]

A tree produces fruit,

A tree produces fruit, why a tree? Because God’s Word always has a deeper message. The letter killeth.

Gal 5: 16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

[gervais]

'Benoni, You haven’t been here for a while and I was hoping you were gone. I could have gone the rest of my life without another word from you. OH well! Everyday we have some disappointments.

[Benoni]

Well thank you. I am so glad I bless you.

gervais, on 21 January 2010 - 09:32 PM, said:

'Benoni, You haven’t been here for a while and I was hoping you were gone. I could have gone the rest of my life without another word from you. OH well! Everyday we have some disappointments.

[Lebanon]

i think that this life is a sort of spiritual energy. 

Jesus said that man shall not live on bread alone but on every word of God, because the word gives life. and also he that eats my flesh and drink my body has life. 




And when God placed Adam in the garden to tend and care for it, he warned him saying, "you may eat any fruit in the garden except the fruit of conscience. If you do you will surely die." and God made a woman from adam's rib and brought her to him. "this is it, part of my own bone and flesh" he exclaimed.

Why in the center of the garden made the Lord God to grow the trees of conscience and life? was it a trap?

[Miss Hepburn]

Lebanon, on 22 January 2010 - 09:12 AM, said:

i think that this life is a sort of spiritual energy. 

Well, of course it is.

Jesus said that man shall not live on bread alone but on every word of God, because the word gives life. and
also he that eats my flesh and drink my body has life.  Yup.
And when God placed Adam in the garden to tend and care for it, he warned him saying, "you may eat any fruit in the garden except the fruit of conscience. If you do you will surely die." and God made a woman from adam's rib and brought her to him. "this is it, part of my own bone and flesh" he exclaimed.

Why in the center of the garden made the Lord God to grow the trees of conscience and life? was it a trap?
IMO, To know why you have to go within and ask for a revelation of this. You would have to have a revelation of the Mind of God - to know and understand me-Jer 9:23, Jer 9:24 Don't you think? How else will we know?
He says it is possible - "to know and understand me". And let him (glory) boast of this.

My insight is- it is the Cosmic Dance of Love -the eternal play of separation and union - the epic Romance, the Sacred Play of creation for His pleasure only - the Eternal ebb and flow of longing and satisfaction in the arms of the Beloved - much like the breath---the constant exhalation to only be filled once more----rather than a "trap".
Just as we love epic love stories - so does the Lord - except He is the End of our illusive separation.

I think I'll have a cigarette now - oh, I don't smoke.

Benoni, on 21 January 2010 - 10:47 AM, said:

A tree produces fruit,

A tree produces fruit, why a tree? Because God’s Word always has a deeper message. The letter killeth.

Gal 5: 16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

I have read this over and over and for the life of me I can not find why you would have any problem with the above, gervais.
What am I not seeing?
...........................................................
Fascinating - this is a separate post above and yet it is included to my post to Lebanon. Hmm, am I supposed to count to 30 before I post another post to a separate person on the same thread?

[rob]

Miss Hepburn, on 22 January 2010 - 05:53 PM, said:

I have read this over and over and for the life of me I can not find why you would have any problem with the above, gervais.
What am I not seeing?
...........................................................
Fascinating - this is a separate post above and yet it is included to my post to Lebanon. Hmm, am I supposed to count to 30 before I post another post to a separate person on the same thread?

The Tree of Life

John 6:35; Romans 10:8, 13

Almost the entire Bible speaks of eating, drinking, and enjoying God. After God created man, He did not give any commandments and regulations for man to keep. Instead, God put man before the tree of life (Genesis 2:9). that man might enjoy the fruit of that tree. The tree of life is a type of God Himself. After man was created, the firs impression that God gave to man was that he should eat, drink, and enjoy God.

In Exodus, the Israelites ate the Passover lamb, which is a type of Christ (Exo. 12:21-28). By doing so, they received the strength to walk out of Egypt. While journeying through the wilderness…God sent manna from heaven as their daily supply (Exo. 16:4, 14-15, 35). When they were thirsty, God gave them to drink the living water from the riven rock (Exo. 17:6). In the New Testament, the Lord Jesus came. He too spoke of eating and drinking. The Lord Jesus said that He is the bread of life, and that he who eats Him will live because of Him (John 6:35, 51, 57b). He also said that He is the well of living water, and that those who drink of this water will not thirst (John 4:14). Then, in Revelation He said that the Overcomers will eat of the tree of life in the paradise of God (Rev. 2:7), and of the hidden manna (Rev. 2:17). At the end of the Bible, the Spirit and the bride are still calling the thirsty sinners to drink of and be satisfied by the water of life (Rev. 22:17)/

Man’s problem before God is not a problem of behaviour, but a problem of eating. If man does not eat, drink, and enjoy God Himself, he will eat and drink things other than God. Through man’s eating, drinking, and enjoying of God, God is dispensed into man to be his constituent and element. God does not expect man to do anything. He desires only to become man’s food by dispensing Himself into man. For this reason, we must eat, drink, and enjoy God, and we must absorb Him into us so that He becomes out life and everything.

In Luke 14 the Lord spoke a parable in which He likened God to a man who made a great dinner, When the time came, the man sent out the invitation through his slaves, “Come, for all things are now ready”(v. 17) God has been processed to become our everything. Today, all we need to do is to come to the feast and eat, drink, and enjoy all that He has prepared for us. We know that a few hours after we eat, the food will be digested and assimilated and will become our nutrients. These nutrients will in turn become our blood and our cells; they will become our constituents and elements. That is why nutritionists say that we are what we eat. Those who eat the Lord will have the Lord mingled and digested within them to become their constituent, supply, and nutrients, and they will be able to live by the Lord.

Lebanon, on 21 January 2010 - 03:25 PM, said:

Then God planted a garden Eastward in Eden and placed the man in it. In the middle of the garden stood the tree of life and the tree of conscience giving knowledge of good and bad.

How could a tree give life ? what life is it talking about ?
How could a tree give knowledge ?

The Tree of Life

John 6:35; Romans 10:8, 13

Almost the entire Bible speaks of eating, drinking, and enjoying God. After God created man, He did not give any commandments and regulations for man to keep. Instead, God put man before the tree of life (Genesis 2:9). that man might enjoy the fruit of that tree. The tree of life is a type of God Himself. After man was created, the firs impression that God gave to man was that he should eat, drink, and enjoy God.

In Exodus, the Israelites ate the Passover lamb, which is a type of Christ (Exo. 12:21-28). By doing so, they received the strength to walk out of Egypt. While journeying through the wilderness…God sent manna from heaven as their daily supply (Exo. 16:4, 14-15, 35). When they were thirsty, God gave them to drink the living water from the riven rock (Exo. 17:6). In the New Testament, the Lord Jesus came. He too spoke of eating and drinking. The Lord Jesus said that He is the bread of life, and that he who eats Him will live because of Him (John 6:35, 51, 57b). He also said that He is the well of living water, and that those who drink of this water will not thirst (John 4:14). Then, in Revelation He said that the Overcomers will eat of the tree of life in the paradise of God (Rev. 2:7), and of the hidden manna (Rev. 2:17). At the end of the Bible, the Spirit and the bride are still calling the thirsty sinners to drink of and be satisfied by the water of life (Rev. 22:17)/

Man’s problem before God is not a problem of behaviour, but a problem of eating. If man does not eat, drink, and enjoy God Himself, he will eat and drink things other than God. Through man’s eating, drinking, and enjoying of God, God is dispensed into man to be his constituent and element. God does not expect man to do anything. He desires only to become man’s food by dispensing Himself into man. For this reason, we must eat, drink, and enjoy God, and we must absorb Him into us so that He becomes out life and everything.

In Luke 14 the Lord spoke a parable in which He likened God to a man who made a great dinner, When the time came, the man sent out the invitation through his slaves, “Come, for all things are now ready”(v. 17) God has been processed to become our everything. Today, all we need to do is to come to the feast and eat, drink, and enjoy all that He has prepared for us. We know that a few hours after we eat, the food will be digested and assimilated and will become our nutrients. These nutrients will in turn become our blood and our cells; they will become our constituents and elements. That is why nutritionists say that we are what we eat. Those who eat the Lord will have the Lord mingled and digested within them to become their constituent, supply, and nutrients, and they will be able to live by the Lord.

[Lebanon]

Lebanon, on 22 January 2010 - 03:12 PM, said:

i think that this life is a sort of spiritual energy.

Jesus said that man shall not live on bread alone but on every word of God, because the word gives life. and also he that eats my flesh and drink my body has life.




And when God placed Adam in the garden to tend and care for it, he warned him saying, "you may eat any fruit in the garden except the fruit of conscience. If you do you will surely die." and God made a woman from adam's rib and brought her to him. "this is it, part of my own bone and flesh" he exclaimed.

Why in the center of the garden made the Lord God to grow the trees of conscience and life? was it a trap?

no it was a test of obedience

[gumby]

The answer is this the earth in itself was created by god to be perfect but because of satans rebellion against god in the first earth age the earth bacame void and without form. See Isaiah 14:12 and Luke 10:18.

[JohnDB]

The earth being without form and void is a fancy-dancy way of saying that the earth was in chaos.

It is part of the creation account which is styled a a type of Hebrew poetry. (The torah is always chanted or sung in Hebrew...even to this day)

This is part and parcel with why it was said, There was evening, There was morning the third day.


Evening and morning in Hebrew both have double meanings with those words. Evening is obscurity (a synonym of chaos) and Morning is clarity (a synonym of order)

So...what we actually get from that passage is that there was chaos and then order. God creates order out of Chaos is a theme of that section as well as many other themes in the creation account.

"The spirit of the Lord was hovering over the waters"

This is where this is also said. The "hovering" is double entendre with shaking, trembling or controlling. "waters" really doesn't translate into english well at all. The hebrew here is Tehovm or abyss and the place of chaos.
Waters is also a metaphor for law. What the natural rules of this universe would be. He chose them to all work together for Good for those that Love the Lord.

[sniper762]

the earth was not "created", it was "formed" or "organized". god didn't "create" the dry land; he "caused it to appear". he didn't "create" the waters; he separated them, making therefore the seas and the atmosphere. in the beginning, the earth was "void" and "without form". sounds to me like god "organized" what was already there.

[JohnDB]

sniper762, on 10 March 2010 - 10:31 PM, said:

the earth was not "created", it was "formed" or "organized". god didn't "create" the dry land; he "caused it to appear". he didn't "create" the waters; he separated them, making therefore the seas and the atmosphere. in the beginning, the earth was "void" and "without form". sounds to me like god "organized" what was already there.

I feel so sorry for you...you worship a very small God.
Mine speaks and the universe leaps into being...

[sniper762]

if god sim[ly "spoke" things into existence, then why did moses go into such detail explaining how it all came about? dont be so nieve

[JohnDB]

sniper762, on 11 March 2010 - 08:42 PM, said:

if god sim[ly "spoke" things into existence, then why did moses go into such detail explaining how it all came about? dont be so nieve

Genesis isn't a "how to make the heavens and the earth" manual.

It is relating a lot of truths that you obviously do not understand. Hebrew Poetry and metaphors are a must know in order to understand what is written in Genesis.

But...it is very clear that when God speaks...it just is...doesn't matter whether you believe it or not...it is still true and even if no such thing existed before...it leaps into existence. Besides...God created time itself. (God has no boundaries and cannot be contained) This part isn't related in Genesis because it wasn't necessary to tell us about it and it didn't fit any of the many themes running through The Torah.

[sniper762]

JohnDB, on 12 March 2010 - 02:02 AM, said:

Genesis isn't a "how to make the heavens and the earth" manual.

It is relating a lot of truths that you obviously do not understand. Hebrew Poetry and metaphors are a must know in order to understand what is written in Genesis.

But...it is very clear that when God speaks...it just is...doesn't matter whether you believe it or not...it is still true and even if no such thing existed before...it leaps into existence. Besides...God created time itself. (God has no boundaries and cannot be contained) This part isn't related in Genesis because it wasn't necessary to tell us about it and it didn't fit any of the many themes running through The Torah.

well why did moses explain things in detail? why didn't he just say that god spoke it?

[JohnDB]

sniper762, on 11 March 2010 - 09:15 PM, said:

well why did moses explain things in detail? why didn't he just say that god spoke it?

He did....

[sniper762]

HE DID? SHOW US, PLEASE

[JohnDB]

sniper762, on 11 March 2010 - 10:56 PM, said:

HE DID? SHOW US, PLEASE

Ge 1:3 And God said...
Ge 1:6 And God said...
Ge 1:9 And God said...

I can show many more verses...

When was the last time you actually read any of this?

[sniper762]

JohnDB, on 12 March 2010 - 10:28 AM, said:

Ge 1:3 And God said...
Ge 1:6 And God said...
Ge 1:9 And God said...

I can show many more verses...

When was the last time you actually read any of this?

these scriptures point to the following scriptures(i.e. gen 7, that says that he "divided the waters to make the firmament")

gen 1:3 "let there be light" , was that the sun? note, it wasnt placed in the firmament until the 4th day. would that light be here today if not for the sun? (by the way, the firmament , where the sun and the moon were placed was said to have waters above and below it). do you believe that the sun lies between the seas and the atmospheric waters? if so, then you are astronamically ignorant..

when (if ever) did you actually UNDERSTAND what you read?

[bling]

Are there really two creation stories gen 1 and gen 2?

[sniper762]

nope, gen 2 just elaborates on gen 1

[jerryjohnson]

sniper762, on 12 March 2010 - 03:24 PM, said:

nope, gen 2 just elaborates on gen 1

snipe, A lot of these things are hard to understand when a person is filled with tradition. Just put it on the shelf for now. Someday it will clear up. Not talking down to you, that is just the way it is.

[JohnDB]

sniper762, on 12 March 2010 - 09:40 AM, said:

these scriptures point to the following scriptures(i.e. gen 7, that says that he "divided the waters to make the firmament")

gen 1:3 "let there be light" , was that the sun? note, it wasnt placed in the firmament until the 4th day. would that light be here today if not for the sun? (by the way, the firmament , where the sun and the moon were placed was said to have waters above and below it). do you believe that the sun lies between the seas and the atmospheric waters? if so, then you are astronamically ignorant..

when (if ever) did you actually UNDERSTAND what you read?

The Light isn't explained clearly and point blank until you get to the Gospel of John.

John says that Jesus was the "Light of men" and that Jesus was "Crucified before the foundations of the Earth were laid".


Jesus also said that he was the Light of the World.

All of these statements are true...as does the opening of his gospel point to a Genesis beginning.

What this means is that when God said, "Let there be Light" God was speaking about the plan He already had for the redemption of man. God wasn't surprised at man's fall....God is omniscient...He can't be surprised.

Water, Tehovm/abyss/chaos/the deep/ocean-sea are all related in the Bible.

As I related before in an earlier post water is a type of metaphor for the different rules, traditions, laws, customs and natural laws that exist depending upon how it is stated and used. You are correct in that the sun wasn't created till the fourth day...the earth was created first. (I know this upsets so many of the evolution-creationists) But that is what God said...and because God said it I have had enough experience to understand and know...my opinion isn't relevant. What God says is relevant...regardless of what I think of it.

If I knew that I had five thousand men, and their families who tagged along with them, to feed I most certainly wouldn't count on five dinner rolls and two kippers to feed them all. I would plan on bringing a whole lot more groceries than that with me.



A large portion of the creation account tells us that God created order out of chaos and nothing.

The very first sentence in Genesis...(Gen 1:1) may be translated as a complete sentence in English...but in reality it isn't a complete sentence in Hebrew.
Bara is the verb used for the "created" in "....God created the Heavens and the Earth." Bara in Hebrew is a verb that requires the material used to be stated...for example if I was to "bara" a table...I would need to declare the material I made it out of...I created a wooden table, a stone table, a marble table....

As anyone can see...there is no material there that is stated...meaning that God spoke it into existence and material didn't exist before God created it. It wasn't exactly ordered and defined until God later spoke and ordered it to be exactly how it was supposed to be. (the separation of water from land) Up to this time the earth was formless and void (as I am sure you will remember reading in a few verses before this).

Does that clear it up for you?

[sniper762]

you are spot on aboout the hebrew word "bara" meaning that something is made from something, and respectfully, the earth was made from something. the earth was already there,(not to say that god had not made it earlier) and it was (void and without form"
god simply formed it into the self supporting earth (a paradise for god's 'to be formed", man) that we know of today.

[JohnDB]

sniper762, on 12 March 2010 - 10:00 PM, said:

you are spot on aboout the hebrew word "bara" meaning that something is made from something, and respectfully, the earth was made from something. the earth was already there,(not to say that god had not made it earlier) and it was (void and without form"
god simply formed it into the self supporting earth (a paradise for god's 'to be formed", man) that we know of today.

Are you absolutely positive you are not trying to make "something" out of "nothing"?

To me....it does seem to appear that way.