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Who Uncovered The Nakedness Of Noah?

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46 replies to this topic

#1
whirlwind

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After the flood.....

Genesis 9:21-24 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.


Much more is being said than Ham seeing his naked daddy.

Leviticus 18:3,6,8 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances. (6) None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD. (8) The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.


The three sons of Noah are listed in the order of "Shem, Ham, and Japeth: and unto them were sons born after the flood." [10:1] "And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan." [10:6]

If Ham was the youngest of Noah's sons...why was he listed in that order?

Bullinger wrote that "Japeth was the eldest." Ham was the middle son...and he believes Ham was termed "younger son" (in the following passage) as he was younger than Japeth, and "Shem was the youngest."

That doesn't make any sense to me. Would it be written that Noah knew "what his younger son had done unto him," if it meant he knew what his son that was younger than Japeth, who was the eldest, had done? :blink:

Genesis 9:22, 24-25 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. (24-25) And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him? And he said, "Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."



Why mention "Ham, the father of Canaan" and not Ham the father of....Cush, Mizraim and Phut...as well as Canaan? And too....Why curse Canaan and not Ham's other sons...why not curse Ham himself? I can only think of two reasons. Either Canaan was the result of what Ham did or....Canaan was the "younger son."

Someone taught me that there is no term for biblical grandfathers, etc. Perhaps saying someone was your "son" could also mean your grandson in that time. Was Canaan referred to as Noah's "younger son?" But then, we have to contend with...."Ham...saw the nakedness...and told his two brethren."

Did Ham see what happened ("saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren") and report it to his two brothers or did Ham commit the act? It didn't say "Ham uncovered his father's nakedness" but rather "Ham saw the nakedness."
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#2
Christina

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Your absoulutly right Whirl it does mean more "To Uncover your father Nakedness"
is a common Hebrew Idiom (figure of speech) it means
"To lie with your fathers wife" (to have a sexual relations)

Shem and Japheth took a blanket and turned their heads, as they went in to cover their mother, after she had been defiled by Ham.
The child, Canaan was the result of Ham's sinful act

Leviticus 18:7, 8 "The nakedness of they father, or the nakedness of they mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness." [verse 7] "The nakedness of they father's wife shat thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness." [verse 8]

Leviticus 20:11 "And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
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Amo 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

His By Grace Bible Study Forum/chat
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#3
sniper762

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ham did not make noah naked. he simply walked in on him and saw him naked. ham did no wrong and should never have been punished.
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#4
jerryjohnson

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ham did not make noah naked. he simply walked in on him and saw him naked. ham did no wrong and should never have been punished.



Snip,
Read the OP
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2Ti 2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Is the Rapture Biblical? Could Christ return at any moment? Who will be left behind?

#5
sniper762

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what is the OP? original post? i read it and my reply is that ham was wrongly accused.
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#6
Christina

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what is the OP? original post? i read it and my reply is that ham was wrongly accused.


????????????????????? What are you talking about Ham himself confesssed to his brothers what he had done which was to sleep (have sex) with his mother , the results was a child Canaan, this is why he was cursed.
The term to your fathers nakedness has nothing to to with seeing anyone naked read what God's word says it is

And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness:

So you just decide God was not telling the truth because you have decided he was falsely accused ??? based on what ??
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Amo 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

His By Grace Bible Study Forum/chat
http://biblestudy.bb...t.com/index.php discuss and learn Gods Word, to you.
HBG on Facebook http://www.facebook....dy/204337219211

#7
sniper762

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well, please EXCUSE me. , i didnt get that at all. ill have to read it again.
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#8
sniper762

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.20 And Noah began to be an husbandman [gardener], and he planted a vineyard:
.21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. 21 - Drunken God was dishonored. Nakedness likewise was not in God's plan ge0321. Also compare hab0215, da0108note2.
.24 ¶ And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

im sorry, but i see nothing here to illude to any sexual act.
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#9
sniper762

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read this please and reply

http://apostjerome.o...?article=100097
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#10
Christina

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.20 And Noah began to be an husbandman [gardener], and he planted a vineyard:
.21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. 21 - Drunken God was dishonored. Nakedness likewise was not in God's plan ge0321. Also compare hab0215, da0108note2.
.24 ¶ And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

im sorry, but i see nothing here to illude to any sexual act.


Yes now read for yourself what does Gods Word say that figure of speech means ?

Leviticus 20:11 "And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Its a figure of speech God interpts his own word and you need to read more carefully even this jerome your listening to admits that the sin here was incest
as this quote denotes "In fact, this interpretation does nothing to explain why Canaan should be cursed. It’s still not the kid’s fault he's a result of incest. ...... this is from your link

God tells you exactly what it means he interpts his own word ....

Today if you say "wow that car is cool" ...Its a figure of speech..... it doesnt mean the car is cold .... The bible is full of figures os speech ...Im certantainly not expecting you know them all .....
but do expect you would want to pay attention when its shown to you in his word

No one accused Ham of anything he confessed to his brothers what he had done in the language of the day ....


We may not understand blaming the child for the fathers sin ... but that doesnt mean the sin didnt happen and that Ham was falsely accused
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Amo 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

His By Grace Bible Study Forum/chat
http://biblestudy.bb...t.com/index.php discuss and learn Gods Word, to you.
HBG on Facebook http://www.facebook....dy/204337219211

#11
sniper762

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what scripture makes you believe that ham's incident is the same a the leviticus one?

ham did not uncover noah's nakedness.
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#12
whirlwind

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what scripture makes you believe that ham's incident is the same a the leviticus one?

ham did not uncover noah's nakedness.



You're correct Sniper....Ham didn't uncover Noah....He "saw the nakedness." And, Ham wasn't the "younger son." For that reason I see Canaan as the culprit. I always assumed it was Ham but upon more careful reading see that it couldn't be. There was a reason Canaan was cursed by Noah.

Christina is correct in pointing out Leviticus for it was the same incident as detailed there.
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~ You don't have a soul...You are a soul...You have a body ~ C.S. Lewis

~ The problem with socialism is that they eventually run out of other people's money ~ Margaret Thatcher

~ A government big enough to give you what you want is strong enough to take everything you have ~ Thomas Jefferson

#13
sniper762

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no, not the same
leviticus speaks of one "uncovering" the nakedness.

ham, nor caanan did this.

please post scripture that says that they did.
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#14
whirlwind

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no, not the same
leviticus speaks of one "uncovering" the nakedness.

ham, nor caanan did this.

please post scripture that says that they did.




Genesis 9:21-23 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken: and he was uncovered within his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. And Shem and Japeth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and sent backward, and covered the nakedness of their father: and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.
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~ You don't have a soul...You are a soul...You have a body ~ C.S. Lewis

~ The problem with socialism is that they eventually run out of other people's money ~ Margaret Thatcher

~ A government big enough to give you what you want is strong enough to take everything you have ~ Thomas Jefferson

#15
sniper762

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Genesis 9:21-23 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken: and he was uncovered within his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. And Shem and Japeth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and sent backward, and covered the nakedness of their father: and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.


its apparant that he uncovered himself. ham just happened to see him

if i passed out drunk, naked on your couch and you walked in and saw me, would you be guilty of uncoveing my nakedness?
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#16
jerryjohnson

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what is the OP? original post? i read it and my reply is that ham was wrongly accused.



Snip, Are you able to read the following Scripture? Do you understand what it is saying?

Lev 20:11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

When Ham “uncovered his father’s nakedness, Ham slept with his fathers wife, “Ham had intercourse with his father’s wife. Is that clearer?

if i passed out drunk, naked on your couch and you walked in and saw me, would you be guilty of uncoveing my nakedness?



If you pass out drunk and I sleep with your wife: I have intercourse with your wife, I would have uncovered your nakedness.


read this please and reply

http://apostjerome.o...?article=100097


I will comment, this guy is an idiot! He has know idea what he is talking about.
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2Ti 2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Is the Rapture Biblical? Could Christ return at any moment? Who will be left behind?

#17
sniper762

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you guys are very near to blashphemy.

unfoundedly accusing ham of adultery. what grounds? is it because somebody told you so.

you should repent.

listen to the word of god, not traditions of men
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#18
jerryjohnson

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snip,

If you are unable to see, I can't help you. You are now added to my ignore list.
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2Ti 2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Is the Rapture Biblical? Could Christ return at any moment? Who will be left behind?

#19
sniper762

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oh no, the iggy list..........what will i do?

does that mean youll go away? take your toys and go home.
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#20
Christina

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Genesis 9:21-23 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken: and he was uncovered within his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. And Shem and Japeth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and sent backward, and covered the nakedness of their father: and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.


I see what your saying Whirl but its just the way its written that it seems so,
having a closer look Noah had 3 sons ..Shem Japheth and Ham

18And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham
is the father of Canaan. ( this only describes who Ham was)

19These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread
These three sons had no children before the flood

Genesis 10
1Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood

6And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan.

we know Canaan was not born until after the flood he was the youngest of four
Noah would have been their grandfather (even if as you say there was no word for grandfather you still have to much to explain

24 When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had
Ham was the Youngest son of Noah ....Noah saw what his youngest son had done.

22And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
The two brothers he told were Shem and Japheth ..... These would have been uncles to Canaan not brothers

23And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.

Canaan's brothers were Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, ............. Not Shem and Japath ..................
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Amo 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

His By Grace Bible Study Forum/chat
http://biblestudy.bb...t.com/index.php discuss and learn Gods Word, to you.
HBG on Facebook http://www.facebook....dy/204337219211

#21
whirlwind

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I see what your saying Whirl but its just the way its written that it seems so,
having a closer look Noah had 3 sons ..Shem Japheth and Ham

18And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham
is the father of Canaan. ( this only describes who Ham was)

19These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread
These three sons had no children before the flood

Genesis 10
1Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood

6And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan.

we know Canaan was not born until after the flood he was the youngest of four
Noah would have been their grandfather (even if as you say there was no word for grandfather you still have to much to explain

24 When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had
Ham was the Youngest son of Noah ....Noah saw what his youngest son had done.



Ham wasn't the youngest son of Noah....he was the middle child. Noah knew what his younger son had done. Ham saw what that younger son did and that was to uncover Noah's nakedness. Ham didn't but someone did and Ham saw it.



22And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
The two brothers he told were Shem and Japheth ..... These would have been uncles to Canaan not brothers

23And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.

Canaan's brothers were Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, ............. Not Shem and Japath ..................



Yes, Ham told his two brothers, Shem and Japeth, and they covered Noah. He didn't tell Canaan's brothers.

you guys are very near to blashphemy.

unfoundedly accusing ham of adultery. what grounds? is it because somebody told you so.

you should repent.

listen to the word of god, not traditions of men



Sniper....have you been told of anything that isn't written? I assure you, the Word of God is being listened to.
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~ You don't have a soul...You are a soul...You have a body ~ C.S. Lewis

~ The problem with socialism is that they eventually run out of other people's money ~ Margaret Thatcher

~ A government big enough to give you what you want is strong enough to take everything you have ~ Thomas Jefferson

#22
sniper762

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i know only what is written in the bible and there is nothing in the bible that even hints to the accusations that have been posted hear. the scriptures are plain and simple and nothing needs to be read into it.
ham did NOTHING wrong. he just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and his son was railroaded for it. i cant help but think that there was some conspiracy there.
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#23
whirlwind

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i know only what is written in the bible and there is nothing in the bible that even hints to the accusations that have been posted hear. the scriptures are plain and simple and nothing needs to be read into it.
ham did NOTHING wrong. he just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and his son was railroaded for it. i cant help but think that there was some conspiracy there.



I don't think what you or I believe on this particular issue is vital for our souls. However.....

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.


I love searching for what He has concealed. :)

The scriptures are plain and simple. He tells us exactly what happened. Ask yourself....why would his son be "railroaded" into something he, Ham, is blamed for? :blink:
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~ You don't have a soul...You are a soul...You have a body ~ C.S. Lewis

~ The problem with socialism is that they eventually run out of other people's money ~ Margaret Thatcher

~ A government big enough to give you what you want is strong enough to take everything you have ~ Thomas Jefferson

#24
sniper762

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exactly

the son should not be held accountable for the doings of his father. that was one of the mosaic laws.

the punishment here does not fit the crime, and based on the scriptural account, no crime had been comitted anyways.

something is missing here
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#25
whirlwind

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exactly

the son should not be held accountable for the doings of his father. that was one of the mosaic laws.

the punishment here does not fit the crime, and based on the scriptural account, no crime had been comitted anyways.

something is missing here



Sniper....please reread the OP (original post).

1. A crime was committed.

2. The crime doesn't fit the punishment IF Canaan was punished for what Ham did....so, Ham didn't do it, Canaan did.

3. I agree the son is not held responsible for the father but a consideration is....the Mosaic laws had not yet been written.
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~ You don't have a soul...You are a soul...You have a body ~ C.S. Lewis

~ The problem with socialism is that they eventually run out of other people's money ~ Margaret Thatcher

~ A government big enough to give you what you want is strong enough to take everything you have ~ Thomas Jefferson

#26
sniper762

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Sniper....please reread the OP (original post).

1. A crime was committed.

2. The crime doesn't fit the punishment IF Canaan was punished for what Ham did....so, Ham didn't do it, Canaan did.

3. I agree the son is not held responsible for the father but a consideration is....the Mosaic laws had not yet been written.


please show me by scripture reference where a crime was "actually" committed. note the scripture says that ham "saw" his father's nakedness, not "uncovered" it.

and what crime, if any did "cainan" comit?
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#27
jerryjohnson

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please show me by scripture reference where a crime was "actually" committed. note the scripture says that ham "saw" his father's nakedness, not "uncovered" it.

and what crime, if any did "cainan" comit?



Take it up with Noah! Noah is the one that cursed Canaan. Canaan was an illegitimate child, born to Noah’s wife through Ham, Noah’s real son. If your wife was impregnated by your son, what would you feel towards that baby? Canaan was not cursed by God, Canaan was cursed by Noah.
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2Ti 2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Is the Rapture Biblical? Could Christ return at any moment? Who will be left behind?

#28
sniper762

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Take it up with Noah! Noah is the one that cursed Canaan. Canaan was an illegitimate child, born to Noah’s wife through Ham, Noah’s real son. If your wife was impregnated by your son, what would you feel towards that baby? Canaan was not cursed by God, Canaan was cursed by Noah.


please post scripture that supports the allegation that canaan was ham's son by noah's wife. maybe a motive to fabricate such a misled story, but nevertheless, untrue.
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#29
jerryjohnson

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please post scripture that supports the allegation that canaan was ham's son by noah's wife. maybe a motive to fabricate such a misled story, but nevertheless, untrue.


Most of the Scripture's have been posted all ready. I can not teach you to read and THINK! And I do not care if YOU understand it or not!
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2Ti 2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Is the Rapture Biblical? Could Christ return at any moment? Who will be left behind?

#30
sniper762

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"And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him."
What did Ham do? Did he just look at his naked father or was there something more to it than that? Some commentators have suggested that Ham committed homosexual rape on his drunken father, and that this was why Ham's descendants were eternally punished with slavery. 9:24
Why did Noah curse Canaan when it was Ham who saw him naked? Why was Noah so angry that Ham saw him naked? Some propose that Ham and/or Canaan actually did something to Noah in addition to seeing him naked. The passage mentions that Noah was angry when he found out, "what his youngest son had done to him." Homosexuality, rape, and humiliation are frequently mentioned as possibilities. However, the text nowhere states that Ham did anything to Noah. Any such view of what occurred is speculation.

Another view arises out of comparison with Leviticus 20:11, "The man who lies with his father's wife has uncovered his father's nakedness..." With Leviticus 20:11 in mind, some propose that Ham had sex with Noah's wife, and that was what brought the curse from Noah. However, this figurative understanding of "uncovering nakedness" fails to account for the fact that Shem and Japheth walked into the room backward and covered Noah with a garment. This does not make any sense if "uncovering nakedness" means "having sex with Noah's wife." It definitely seems that Noah was lying naked—his nakedness uncovered.

Whatever took place between Ham and Noah, why did Noah curse Ham's son Canaan, when Canaan is nowhere mentioned as having done anything? The Bible does not specifically answer this question. Ham was Noah's youngest son, and Canaan was Ham's youngest son. Perhaps Noah cursed Canaan because it is more painful for a father to see his child suffer than it is for a father to suffer himself. The other possible explanation is that Canaan was somehow involved in the incident, thereby bringing Noah's curse upon himself.

the fact is that there are no scriptures that support your allegations.
why must you listen to speculations of commentators (mortal men).
read and believe the word of god "as it is written"
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