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Predestination Vs. Free Will

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88 replies to this topic

Poll: Predestination Vs. Free Will (12 member(s) have cast votes)

Predistination vs. Free Will

  1. Predestination (6 votes [50.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 50.00%

  2. Free Will (6 votes [50.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 50.00%

Vote

#31
Brother Mike

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Why thank you may dear wonderful sister Christiana. I am so happy that we have a understanding now.........at least I think.

Be blessed!!!!!

Jesus Is Lord.
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#32
The Robster

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Nice post Hammerstone :)


My dear Robster and Brother Mike thanks for the invitation .
.However I must decline I do not attend Rapture teaching, tongue speaking false churches of men I study
Gods Word ..However I will not bore you with trying to help you understand the Word of God ..
You have a great grasp of the Words of men and I wouldnt want God to interfer with your worship of men and their lies.
:lol: :lol:


Oh boy. My dear Christina I hope you aren't going to suggest that my healing is going to be a work of the devil. Now I think its safe to say that you would be mocking the Glory of God, the Mercy of God by slamming a healing miracle of His.
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Though you may slay me, I will love you.

#33
Christina

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Oh boy. My dear Christina I hope you aren't going to suggest that my healing is going to be a work of the devil. Now I think its safe to say that you would be mocking the Glory of God, the Mercy of God by slamming a healing miracle of His.


Heavens no Robster ...I didnt know you could heal ....
WOW! here I thought God did the healing
but if you say its you far be from me to tell you differnt.
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Amo 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

His By Grace Bible Study Forum/chat
http://biblestudy.bb...t.com/index.php discuss and learn Gods Word, to you.
HBG on Facebook http://www.facebook....dy/204337219211

#34
Brother Mike

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Heavens no Robster ...I didnt know you could heal ....
WOW! here I thought God did the healing
but if you say its you far be from me to tell you differnt.


You see Christiana.......(No, guess you would not) Robster never said anything about him having healing power. In truth, by His stripes we are already healed. Of course those that mock that, won't be bother with any healing they may need.

Jesus Is Lord.
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#35
fivesense

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I voted free will... this is a debate that pops up from time to time at the site where I'm an admin, and I highly respect those frequent members there that support predestination. However, it just doesn't seem to want to sit right with me. I don't know... if God already predetermined if we would be saved or not in our making, what's the point for the cross? That's just how I feel about it.



It's the same word used by God to describe His delivering His Son into murderous hands, proorizo.

The most horrible crime against God that could be done, was done so by His predestination.

It does not pertain to salvation only. It is an operation of God that is not only connected to salvation.

The Body of Christ was designated beforhand for His purposes. They are saved for that reason alone. No believer can claim they saved themselves. It was never their choice to make, it was Him Who had the power to bring this to pass, even against their supposed free will.

Paul says we are under the power of the jurisdiction of darkness til He rescues us. He says we are slaves to sin without Him.

If we were so influenced by dark powers and in bondage to fleshly lusts, yet supposedly free-willed enough to deny or ignore those powers, then the Cross is just a mockery, and we never needed a Redeemer from death since it was in our own power to choose for or against the Adversary and his treacheries. It is foolishness to believe so.

The "free-will" doctrine is not found in the Scriptures. Yet it is believed and taught, even above what is taught in God's very Word.

Once again, God's predesignation does not imply salvation, although it accompanies our lot as the elect Body. It is an operation of God apart from salvation, or with it, to bring about His will in the universe.

The equally infamous falsehood of everlasting destruction usually accompanies this issue, those who deny the power of God to save utterly typically deny the teachings of predesignation as well. Honesty is in short supply though, isn't it...
fivesense
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#36
James

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Hey everybody

Age old debate Predestination vs. Free Will. Just want to hear your veiws on the matter.

I never quite understood how this can be a debate. If you believe in scripture then there is no reason to argue against it. However, whenever someone brings up the idea of freewill or us being able to choose God while we are still dead in sins...I begin to wonder if they even read the bible. Not only does the bible declare that God chooses us, it also makes it clear that prior to salvation we are dead in our sins. So the question that I have to ask is how can a dead man pass through a narrow gate?

Deal with the fact that salvation does not belong to us and it doesn't come from us. We can't earn it, deserve it. Since salvation belongs to the Lord and since we are spiritually dead and given over to the lusts of our flesh and eyes and boast in the world we don't have the ability to stop living in sin and live for Christ. It's just like in Ezekiel...we are that valley of dry bones and the only way we can be restored to life is through the hearing of God's word which is life. God chooses us and when He does He plants the seeds of repentance and faith.

Repentance and faith do not come from us. They come from Him. God enables us to repent and believe...we physically and spiritually can't work up a repentance and faith that results in salvation through our own strength...it must come from God or you are not truly born again but you are just following a religion and living in darkness...not in the truth. To say that you are saved because you chose to believe in God is like saying you are saved through self righteousness....
We are saved through the repentance and faith that God enabled us to have through His choosing of us and drawing us according to His plan.

I know I may sound Calvinistic by saying that there is no free will...but I am not. I am trying to say as simply as possible that it is God who gives us the ability to believe in Him and cross over from living a life of self whether its religious self, moral self, prideful self, covetous self, lustful self....over to Christ. We CANNOT do that in our own strength. Repentance in itself require us to choose so it depends on how you look at it. God draws us and we make choices.

Once a person has been saved, we then have the ability to choose. We have the ability to choose or reject God in all our decisions. Prior to that...we are like a babe. When you are born...you can't feed yourself or wrap your self in a blanket to stay warm...you can't do anything to help yourself. That is EXACTLY how we are in God's eyes.
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#37
Wafuwasi

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Nicely said hammer. Good job
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#38
Brother Mike

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Repentance and faith do not come from us. They come from Him. God enables us to repent and believe...we physically and spiritually can't work up a repentance and faith that results in salvation through our own strength...it must come from God or you are not truly born again but you are just following a religion and living in darkness...not in the truth. To say that you are saved because you chose to believe in God is like saying you are saved through self righteousness....
We are saved through the repentance and faith that God enabled us to have through His choosing of us and drawing us according to His plan.


James, we are created in the image of God, even the unsaved rascles. It was Grace, the goodness of God that we may be saved. However, we have to believe that. It's called faith.

Now if faith was just all of God, then Jesus would have never told anyone "Ye of little faith" No, he would have said, that it was his fault for not giving enough faith to believe something. He would not have put the blame on them.

It is hard for me to believe that God created us in his own image, that we ended up so dumb and unable to hear the word and obey. The word produces the faith to recieve the package of salvation. The word was with God, the Word was God. So, it is God that is producing the faith if the Word is spoken, but Jesus gave 3 example in Mark 4 where a person could let that word go. It had nothing to do with God.

Jesus said...........

Mar 4:20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

These people had to pass the first 3 conditions and hear the word and receive the word.

Now we can just say that God made it so they could hear the word, but Jesus never blamed God for anyone not paying attention. Even the man that built his house on the sand and the one that built his house on the Rock. Both men heard the Word, Both men made seperate choices.

Jesus Is Lord.
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#39
jiggyfly

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It's the same word used by God to describe His delivering His Son into murderous hands, proorizo.

The most horrible crime against God that could be done, was done so by His predestination.

It does not pertain to salvation only. It is an operation of God that is not only connected to salvation.

The Body of Christ was designated beforhand for His purposes. They are saved for that reason alone. No believer can claim they saved themselves. It was never their choice to make, it was Him Who had the power to bring this to pass, even against their supposed free will.

Paul says we are under the power of the jurisdiction of darkness til He rescues us. He says we are slaves to sin without Him.

If we were so influenced by dark powers and in bondage to fleshly lusts, yet supposedly free-willed enough to deny or ignore those powers, then the Cross is just a mockery, and we never needed a Redeemer from death since it was in our own power to choose for or against the Adversary and his treacheries. It is foolishness to believe so.

The "free-will" doctrine is not found in the Scriptures. Yet it is believed and taught, even above what is taught in God's very Word.

Once again, God's predesignation does not imply salvation, although it accompanies our lot as the elect Body. It is an operation of God apart from salvation, or with it, to bring about His will in the universe.

The equally infamous falsehood of everlasting destruction usually accompanies this issue, those who deny the power of God to save utterly typically deny the teachings of predesignation as well. Honesty is in short supply though, isn't it...
fivesense


Very nice post Fivesense, easy to read, seems the common ideology of endless torment or annihilation concerning hell gets in the way of many being able to receive, recognize and realizing the Truth.

Religious paradigm is a real monster that creates religious fantasies and fairy tales.

Ephesians 4:14 Then we will no longer be like children, forever changing our minds about what we believe because someone has told us something different or because someone has cleverly lied to us and made the lie sound like the truth.


1Corinthians 13:11 It's like this: When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child does. But when I grew up, I put away childish things.


Seems that many think of this "time to come" is still in the future. But a short study into "church history" shows that this was taking place as early as the third century.


2Timothy 4:3&4 For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to right teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever they want to hear. They will reject the truth and follow strange myths.


Some have so much invested into religion that it is difficult for them. I recently watched a show on TV about hording and they had a man that had horded up all kinds of junk cars, appliances and scrap metal, but in his mind he had amassed great treasure and could not let it all go and clean up his property. He was deceived, thinking what he had was far more valuable than what it was really worth and so he could not let it go. It was ludicrous but he couldn't see his own folly, but he did make some small steps toward reality through others patiently helping him. This scenario reminds me of something Paul said about his own journey.


Philippians 3:7-9
I once thought all these things were so very important, but now I consider them worthless because of what Christ has done.
Yes, everything else is worthless when compared with the priceless gain of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. I have discarded everything else, counting it all as garbage, so that I may have Christ and become one with him. I no longer count on my own goodness or my ability to obey God's law, but I trust Christ to save me. For God's way of making us right with himself depends on faith.


I really appreciate your post Fivesense, keep provoking and challenging us.
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Religion is such an ugly tyrant.


#40
James

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James, we are created in the image of God, even the unsaved rascles. It was Grace, the goodness of God that we may be saved. However, we have to believe that. It's called faith.

Now if faith was just all of God, then Jesus would have never told anyone "Ye of little faith" No, he would have said, that it was his fault for not giving enough faith to believe something. He would not have put the blame on them.

It is hard for me to believe that God created us in his own image, that we ended up so dumb and unable to hear the word and obey. The word produces the faith to recieve the package of salvation. The word was with God, the Word was God. So, it is God that is producing the faith if the Word is spoken, but Jesus gave 3 example in Mark 4 where a person could let that word go. It had nothing to do with God.

Jesus said...........

Mar 4:20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

These people had to pass the first 3 conditions and hear the word and receive the word.

Now we can just say that God made it so they could hear the word, but Jesus never blamed God for anyone not paying attention. Even the man that built his house on the sand and the one that built his house on the Rock. Both men heard the Word, Both men made seperate choices.

Jesus Is Lord.

You are not understanding what was said. We have the ability to have faith in God...after we are saved. Prior to salvation we suppress the truth in unrighteousness. If we suppress the truth then we obviously have no faith. The disciples of Jesus didn't have the Holy Spirit...but they did believe what Jesus told them....it's the word of Christ and the bible that enable us to believe. Faith comes from hearing the word of God because it's the truth...the light that exposes the darkness. We are born spiritually dead and non believers. We live a lifestyle of carnality and worldliness. However, when God chooses to save a person...He recreates that person into a new creature that lives a different way. They live a life of faith and hope set upon the perfect work and merit of Christ....that doesn't come from us...it comes from Him. He enables us to do all things for the glory of God....faith is just one evidence of having been saved.

There are also two different types of faith. One results in sanctification...the other in hell. The true faith can only come from the living word of God. It's His word not ours...it comes from Him and by Him we are drawn to believing in His teachings. Repentance is no different. We do not decide on our own to change in order to serve God and die to self...God enables us to through the working of the Spirit....without which we would have nothing but worldly grief instead of the Godly grief that results in the forgiveness of sins.

What you are actually saying is that we have the ability to believe...if that was true then all who profess faith in Christ would be saved right? Well obviously they all are not according to the teaching of Christ. They profess to believe but deny Him by their works...
Even the fruit that we bear comes from Him...not us. We cannot produce good fruit apart from God. He is the source of our faith and fruit and are ability to understand truth. We have no merit of our own...only the grace revealed through Christ and Christ alone...
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#41
Brother Mike

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ummm for some reason, my post would not post.................sigh............... Then power went out.........

As with a lot of cases. It's easy to fly by one another on a forum setting............Now to pinpoint the spot where we are not agreeing.........

lets get on the table where we do agree...........

no fruit without God, the Word, Spirit...... Check
can do nothing without Him.......... Check
Can not have faith without God, The word, God is the Word......Check
Can not live right without the Spirit, mortify the deeds of the flesh though the Spirit......... Check
We do not decide on our own To change to server God......................ummmmmm............Without God we can't change..............

2 Tim 2:15 WE do have to choose to study, and pray, and spend time with God..................So we are deciding to do something to better serve God. Before teaching I pray, and study. I suppose I could choose not to be prepard. It could be I misunderstood what you typed here.

Now your statements..........

If we suppress the truth then we obviously have no faith.


So is it because we have no faith for the reason of not taking heed to the truth? Kinda tricky because faith only comes from hearing the Word, but if someone won't hear it, then where would faith come? It won't..........Why won't someone hear it???

However, when God chooses to save a person...


Is it when God chooses to save someone, then they can hear it? can they choose not to?

It's the will of God that none should perish, but all come to the knowledge of the truth..................... So if it is the will of God that none be lost, and he has already chosen the World, does it come back to Whosoever will believe? If God choosen them, which he did, that none should perish.......... I am stuck in a loop here.........

What you are actually saying is that we have the ability to believe...


ummm. Jesus is the Author and finisher of our faith............ No Jesus, no faith............What are we looking at though........being born again then Jesus growing our faith.

Still, we have to do something with these scriptures............ Everything must fit.

Mat 9:28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.
Mat 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel

Now...............I agree that without the Word, without God, without Jesus being the author and finisher of our faith, we don't grow and become what God wants us to be.

But where do these people get their faith? The centurion's faith impressed Jesus so much he mentioned it. In the other case, Jesus asked if the man believed if He could be healed, then said it was according to that mans faith. Jesus just did not heal him. He needed to know what that man believed about him.

These men were not born again, but yet had the faith for healings. Something the Body of Christ lacks today.................

So, that was my point, these men saw something in Jesus. It would have to be that they must have heard him speak before, then came to him. Where they get that faith at? Jesus also gave them credit for having that faith. So it was something they choose to do.

These are just a few of the scriptures where I believe Men can have faith. However, not without the example of the Word............ So It would have to be Men have to ability to choose to recieve that faith. Now someone could arguee where they get that ability to recieve, God must have given them faith to do so............We have a which came first, the chicken or the Egg...........(We know the chicken, but for example)

So, I believe God gave us all the tools we need to produce God's results.......... men have the ability to choose if they take heed, as men were created with the ability to recieve faith from the Word. Some men choose Jesus, but don't choose to continue growing. I believe it's their choice to use the light they do have and obey or not.

It's the only thing that makes sense to me................ What do you think?

Jesus Is Lord
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#42
James

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I think that you have misunderstood this entire conversation regarding faith. Like I stated before, there are two types of faith. One leads to eternal life...the other leads to eternal death. John 3 records the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus. Nicodemus was a religious pharisee that believed in God and the mosaic law. However, he was not saved and his profession of faith was false. Jesus told him that in order to enter into the kingdom of God...you must be born again. Verse 8 is huge because it shows that man cannot control the workings of the Holy Spirit. Nicodemus had faith...but it was set upon the wrong God. His God was his religion...not the one true God.

We don't have the ability to produce a true saving faith that results in salvation. Sure, we can place faith in God. I did when I was lost. I thought I was a christian and I also believed in there being a God. But why wasn't I saved? Because I lacked true saving faith in Christ that results in repentance. I was still spiritually dead and yet I believed that there was a God. Unfortunately, my faith was placed in an image of God...a made up conception of what I thought God was...an idol. That true saving faith doesn't come from us...we can't produce it. But Christ does through the Holy Spirit. Still don't believe me? Then wrap your mind around this thought for a moment. Repentance....
Let's set aside faith for one moment and let's look at repentance. The bible says we must believe and repent in order to be saved...repentance is simply a change of mind... a turning away from sin and turning towards God. Now, prior to conversion...when a person is exposed to the truth of God's word and they feel convicted...what is happening to them? Are they simply just becoming self aware of there sinful nature and they make a decision to turn away from it and turn to Christ? While turning toward Christ, they then place there faith in Christ...and this comes from themselves and..not God? This is in fact what you are saying. You think we have the ability to practice true saving faith in our own strength...
Well prepared to be shocked but repentance doesn't come from us but from God just like faith. We don't have the ability to turn away from sin. The bible says we are born sinful and spiritually dead. Do you understand what that means? It means we are unable to stop sinning...we are unable to understand truth or desire it. We don't have the ability to conform our lives to Christ or to repent. We don't have the ability to die to our sinful ways and flee to Christ.

When a person is led to repentance it is through the prompting of the Holy Spirit. The most common way a person is saved goes something like this. They are exposed to the truth of God's word. They are able to understand enough of it through the working of the Holy Spirit to understand that they are sinful and that God is Holy and righteous. They feel convicted over sin...through the Holy Spirit. John 16:8 - "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
They place their faith in Christ and repent and are saved and become spiritually alive. The whole process of salvation (faith & repentance) is not produced in our own strength...but is produced by the power of the Holy Spirit...that same power that regenerates our hearts.

Can a person who is spiritually dead and lives in darkness...can they be convicted over sin apart from the Holy Spirit? No! Show me the scripture that indicates otherwise. Show me where in the bible that it teaches that a man can come to Christ through his own efforts and not through the working of the Holy Spirit. I have yet to find it. You need to realize that when you say that we have the ability to have true saving faith through our own strength...you are in fact saying that we can believe in Christ and follow Him apart from the Holy Spirit. That is not true. In a sense it is but those who do are not truly saved...they think they are but there false profession is lacking the Spirit of God in there life that is supposed to bear witness with there spirit that we are a child of God.

When people think that we have freewill to choose God prior to salvation...I like to ask them this question....HOW CAN A DEAD MAN PASS THROUGH A NARROW GATE??? How can a person who is given over to the lust of there flesh...who commit evil continually because they live in darkness and don't know Christ, how are they going to produce that faith that results in salvation upon Christ who is that narrow gate? How can a babe feed them self or seek warmth on there own? They can't! They are helpless. They need someone who can feed and cloth them because they lack the ability to do it themselves. The same goes with salvation. The faith doesn't come from us...we are spiritually dead so we lack the ability to trust in Christ and repent. We lack the ability to weep over sin and repent of it...but through the Holy Spirit, faith and repentance are given to us through the words of Christ.
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#43
Brother Mike

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Ok............. Saving faith!!! Got it James, I know where your coming from. The Holy spirit !!!


OK, so lets set aside faith to be healed, and faith to get your needs met, and faith for anything else........... focus on the faith that will change your unborn again spirit, into a born again one. The all things become new faith.

Your say there are different kinds of faith. I see different levels of faith, but mentioned after one is born again...........ummm.

So what are we going back and forth about? predestination..............or did we bypass the original OP?

Reading though your post, we have a misunderstanding here that I thought I corrected........ Let me try again.

This is in fact what you are saying. You think we have the ability to practice true saving faith in our own strength...


Ok, I never said that. What caused the faith to start with? Did you read my whole post carefully? I also never said or agreed that we do anything without the tools God has provided. So, not sure where I got misunderstood at.

So, because I agree with what you have already said.........................I think we got hung up on my examples of Jesus giving credit to their faith. I did mention that they had to have heard the Lord teach or preach the word first though.

So, I give you a apple, you can't get any on your own. Now you can say it's your apple. you have no apples apart from me.

If the Holy Spirit convicts the World of sin, does that include everyone?

My first arguement was that I fully believe man has the ability to have faith. I never said man can just somehow get faith on his own. Remember the apple example.

Now I fully believe that it is not the will of God any should be lost. That covers the original OP.

Now if I agree with everything you posted, and you somehow misunderstood or not read carefully what I posted, and we started a Church together. What would you want me not to say to the people that we were in charge of knowing what I just told you.

Be blessed Brother....... It's getting late here......

Jesus Is Lord.
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#44
James

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I originally gave my thoughts on predestination vs free will...then you pointed out that what I said about faith coming from God is wrong according to what you believe. So that is what we are discussing.
I know you never said that true saving faith comes from ourselves...but faith in and of itself is just that. It's true faith, the kind that will save a person and keep that person in the race until they see Christ face to face.
So when you said that we have the ability to exercise faith prior to salvation...what you really are saying is that a person can exercise faith that leads to salvation on there own or without God.

So just so you don't get confused as to what I am trying to say I will make it simple. If you don't agree then fine. I already stated more then once why I believe as I do...

All I am trying to say is that faith (the kind that results in works/ true saving faith/ faith that results in salvation) comes from God because through His Spirit we are enabled to believe and repent and continue on it faith and repentance all the days of our life.
I don't believe that an unregenerate man can produce faith that results in repentance and works and salvation and so on....can come any other way then through the Holy Spirit.
Can a person have faith or just simply believe in God while still unregenerate? Yes, but they won't be saved because it must be the faith that leads to repentance and that can't be produced without God first enabling us through the conviction of sin that is one of the primary ministries of the Holy Spirit according to Jesus.

If you don't agree...then fine. I'm not going to waste my time or your time trying to push something that isn't holding any water...

View PostBrother Mike, on 26 May 2010 - 03:07 AM, said:
My first arguement was that I fully believe man has the ability to have faith. I never said man can just somehow get faith on his own.

The way you originally said it sounded to me as if you thought that we have the ability to choose God through are own strength...without God first drawings us.
I stated my thoughts above anyway...
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#45
James

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I originally gave my thoughts on predestination vs free will...then you pointed out that what I said about faith coming from God is wrong according to what you believe. So that is what we are discussing.
I know you never said that true saving faith comes from ourselves...but faith in and of itself is just that. It's true faith, the kind that will save a person and keep that person in the race until they see Christ face to face.
So when you said that we have the ability to exercise faith prior to salvation...what you really are saying is that a person can exercise faith that leads to salvation on there own or without God.

So just so you don't get confused as to what I am trying to say I will make it simple. If you don't agree then fine. I already stated more then once why I believe as I do...

All I am trying to say is that faith (the kind that results in works/ true saving faith/ faith that results in salvation) comes from God because through His Spirit we are enabled to believe and repent and continue on it faith and repentance all the days of our life.
I don't believe that an unregenerate man can produce faith that results in repentance and works and salvation and so on....can come any other way then through the Holy Spirit.
Can a person have faith or just simply believe in God while still unregenerate? Yes, but they won't be saved because it must be the faith that leads to repentance and that can't be produced without God first enabling us through the conviction of sin that is one of the primary ministries of the Holy Spirit according to Jesus.

If you don't agree...then fine. I'm not going to waste my time or your time trying to push something that isn't holding any water...

My first arguement was that I fully believe man has the ability to have faith. I never said man can just somehow get faith on his own.

The way you originally said it sounded to me as if you thought that we have the ability to choose God through are own strength...without God first drawings us.
I stated my thoughts above anyway...
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#46
Brother Mike

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Thank you Brother James..............My focus on the Goodness of God, victory over circumstances, and so forth may have confused this issue. We each have things the Lord has us focus on more than others.

The Thread is predestination V Free will.

So. We Agree that without the Work of the Holy Spirit, and the Word of God. Man can not choose God on his own.

I was had a arguement with a Pastor that God just can't save someone, without Faith produced by the Word of God. He said God can do anything, but then takes away accecptance of Jesus, and without the Word, How can one accecpt and embrace that which He has no knowledge of?

I am convinced that the Word of God contains Power to produce what it said it will produce. The Word is God, was God.

So we both agreed this whole time, just took time getting there. Without God, Holy Spirit, Word, man can not choose, man can not have faith, as faith comes by hearing the Word. Man can't be drawn. I fully agree.

So, we are down to this................ If two hear the same thing, God shares the same saving tools. God's Word draws both.

Can one choose to not accept?

And is this for anyone that has ears to hear? In other Words, if one hears the Word, then those tools are available to build saving faith, can choose to take heed or not to.

Or as some believe.........The tools are used, but God has to personally open someones ears to hear. Leaving some condemned if God so chooses?

I don't believe in that last statement, but people with the right heart will hear, and those hardend to God (Something they did, not God) may not. In that I believe man has a choice.

Be blessed.

Jesus is Lord.
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#47
Pegg

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reguadless of what you all think Its really not the issue here does anyone care what God says?????? Why is there a poll here other than to see who does or doesnt know what God says ...your opinons mean nothing God says there is some who are predestined ..period now figure out how that works with free will is a subject worth discussing .

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


Adam was obviously predestined to be who he was yet he still was given free choice to eat or not eat of the tree ...
God being all knowing knew that Adam would chose to eat ...So he divised his plan around would he knew Adam would chose to do.
Adam ate of his own free will .... That doesnt change he was predestind to be the line Christ would come through ...God being all knowing simply makes his plan to work with our free will
Predestination and free will work hand in hand ...God is simply all knowing ...If one denys there is predestination you deny the very words of God in the above scripture ...If you deny free will you deny the very words of God that he allows you to chose

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

You chose life or death blessing or curse you choose of your own free will
Christ is life Satan is death your choice just as it was Adams choice ...However Adam was still predestined to do as God planned.


I dont beleive one could be 'predestined' and still have free will.

to be predestined as Augustine and Calvine taught means that God fixed every individual’s destiny, including yours, before the first man was created.

How could have free choice to choose 'life or death, malediction or curse' if God has already picked which one of these choices for us?

Its impossible to have both.

Also, if a person is predestined to become a murderer for instance, then he cannot be held accountable for his murders because that action has already been chosen for him and he has not choice in the matter. Do you see how the idea of predestination is completely out of harmony with sin and punishment?

Its also out of harmony with the inspired word of God. For instance “time and unforeseen occurrence" is spoken of in Ecclesiastes 9:11, 12 in regard to when calamity strikes. Also, if a person has chosen “the way of life,” he must be careful to stay on it. God warns these ones that they can just as easily end up with death if they do not maintain their righteousness at Jeremiah 21:8; Ezekiel 33:11, 13.

That scripture you quote in Romans 8 is speaking specifically of the ones who will rule with Christ in heaven. They are the chosen ones of God so they are the only ones who can be said to be forordained in that they have been chosen for heavenly life. However, its not individuals who are predestined for the heavenly kingdom. The verse in Ephesians may be refering to the entire 'group' who will rule with Christ in heaven as that became a part of Gods plan after Adam sinned. The heavenly kingdom is what was foreordained, but not the individuals who make up that kingdom and for good reason. In Revelation 3:11 these individuals are warned “Keep on holding fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.” This indicates that an individual chosen for heavenly life could have their opportunity removed from them.

Im sorry, predestination and free will are an oxymoron.
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#48
jiggyfly

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I dont beleive one could be 'predestined' and still have free will.





Im sorry, predestination and free will are an oxymoron.


I agree they are conflicting concepts, and in the calvinism and arminianism packages in which they are usually presented it's obvious they can not both be right but it is very possible that they both can be wrong.Posted Image
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Religion is such an ugly tyrant.


#49
James

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Freewill and predestination are both present in scripture. To deny one is to reject what scripture teaches. There are simply just somethings about scripture that we will not be able to fully grasp. It's like the trinity...we can't fully understand how it works so just because we fail to understand it completely...does that mean to say that we will just believe in part of it? To say we all have freewill and none are predestined is wrong. To say we are all predestined and no one has freewill is also wrong. Scripture teaches that God predestines people and that people have freewill. If we didn't' have freewill then we would never sin..

I tend to lean more towards Calvinism when it comes to freewill, but to say that we are total depraved and can't chose God, and that God must first chose us (predestination) is to deny scripture that teaches we have freewill...and I can't do that.
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#50
jerryjohnson

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Freewill and predestination are both present in scripture. To deny one is to reject what scripture teaches. There are simply just somethings about scripture that we will not be able to fully grasp. It's like the trinity...we can't fully understand how it works so just because we fail to understand it completely...does that mean to say that we will just believe in part of it? To say we all have freewill and none are predestined is wrong. To say we are all predestined and no one has freewill is also wrong. Scripture teaches that God predestines people and that people have freewill. If we didn't' have freewill then we would never sin..

I tend to lean more towards Calvinism when it comes to freewill, but to say that we are total depraved and can't chose God, and that God must first chose us (predestination) is to deny scripture that teaches we have freewill...and I can't do that.


James, if I understand you, you are saying that their are both. Some, a few, are predestined, and some, most, have free will. That is where I am at in the "freewill and predestination" debate.
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2Ti 2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Is the Rapture Biblical? Could Christ return at any moment? Who will be left behind?

#51
James

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I'm on the same page as what you just said...some are predestined and others chose God based on freewill. It's just one of those things where there is no definite answer. If you take the Calvinists view point then you are contradicting scripture...if you take the Armenian side...again the same thing.
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#52
Selene

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Predestination does NOT mean that a person is destined for something and cannot get out of it. Man always had freedom of choice. God gave it to us because He loves us. If we had no choice and are forced by some external factor, that is not love. Predestination only means that God has foreknowledge of everything.

One must distinguish between God knowing something is going to happen and God making it happen. God's knowledge of an action does not necessarily have to influence that action. The action is a result of man's free choice and before he commits to the act he can choose either way. As God transcend time and space, He is aware of what the person's choice will be. Foreknowledge of an act is not the same as influencing it.

Thus, if let's say that in my life I was to become a teacher.....is this predestination? No. It is my choice to become a teacher. God already knew I made that choice even before I was born because He knows all future events. His knowledge of future events does not mean that He is going to force me into becoming a teacher.
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#53
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Perhaps the definition of the phrases 'free will' and 'predestination' need to be reevaluated.

Most folks have no idea what 'the will' is unless they are after Grandma's silver tea set.
Some people don't even know if they've got a mind or not since they use it so seldom.

Predestination? What is that?
Are we discussing single predestination, double predestination, or paying ahead of time for your airline ticket?

Perhaps a rule should be made regarding the use of the phrase 'free will' and the word 'predestination' in the same sentence.
It should be as rare a thing as seeing Democrats and Republicans sitting down at the same table to congratulate each other on the execution of some political wisdom. Yea. That's gonna happen.

'Free will' and 'predestination' seem to be mutually exclusive terms.
At the very least they seem to put human pride ahead of divine intention.
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#54
Watchman_2

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The title of this topic, "Replying to Predestination vs. Free Will", is a misnomer. It is a misnomer as both terms apply and are mutually exclusive of each other. The title should read 'Predestination or Free Will' so that viewers would understand that two classifications of salvation exist. Everyone is born into one or the other classification. for salvation.
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#55
rjp34652@yahoo.com

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The title of this topic, "Replying to Predestination vs. Free Will", is a misnomer. It is a misnomer as both terms apply and are mutually exclusive of each other. The title should read 'Predestination or Free Will' so that viewers would understand that two classifications of salvation exist. Everyone is born into one or the other classification. for salvation.


I don't understand what you mean when you say that everyone is born into one or the other classification (predestined vs. free will).

Consider this; that the Bible indicates we are ALL sinners.
The theology is original sin, but you get the picture when the prophet says we are all gone astray and that no one seeks after God. No one at all.

Consider also; that the Bible teaches we are all RESPONSIBLE for our sins.
The book of Hebrews specifically declares that after the end of one life, each human is subject to divine judgment (9:27).

The doctrine of predestination opposes Biblical responsibility, while the philosophy of free will violates Biblical teachings on sin.

We are all sinners. We cannot help but be sinners. We will all be judged for our sin.

How about that for being caught between a rock and a hard place?

Fussing about it won't solve the problem and angry accusations of the most high will not serve as justification before the great throne of the Almighty.

What is a man to do?

Stay tuned for the startling answer.
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#56
Paul

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The title of this topic, "Replying to Predestination vs. Free Will", is a misnomer. It is a misnomer as both terms apply and are mutually exclusive of each other. The title should read 'Predestination or Free Will' so that viewers would understand that two classifications of salvation exist. Everyone is born into one or the other classification. for salvation.



You are correct watchman, the predestinated have all ready been justified because of what the accomplished in the first heaven and earth age.


I don't understand what you mean when you say that everyone is born into one or the other classification (predestined vs. free will).

Consider this; that the Bible indicates we are ALL sinners.
The theology is original sin, but you get the picture when the prophet says we are all gone astray and that no one seeks after God. No one at all.

Consider also; that the Bible teaches we are all RESPONSIBLE for our sins.
The book of Hebrews specifically declares that after the end of one life, each human is subject to divine judgment (9:27).

The doctrine of predestination opposes Biblical responsibility, while the philosophy of free will is in tension with Biblical teaching on sin.
We are all sinners. We cannot help but be sinners. We will all be judged for our sin.
...



rjp, you are correct, you do not understand predestination. And we are all sinners in need of repentance.
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Jesus Christ is God

#57
rjp34652@yahoo.com

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You are correct watchman, the predestinated have all ready been justified because of what the accomplished in the first heaven and earth age.





rjp, you are correct, you do not understand predestination. And we are all sinners in need of repentance.


Specifically, I do not understand your particular "spin" on the subject of predestination. I do indeed understand the entire subject - in detail.

I do not agree with the Calvinist interpretation of it and apparently not with yours either.

THE BIBLE says that all men are sinners and that none are righteous. Not so much as a single one.
The argument for jusfification in a previous life/age/or comic book volume is invalid since the Bible states that men are sinners NOW.

In the state of sin it is IMPOSSIBLE for a man to repent, since such an act would require righteousness.
You cannot be a sinner and a saint at the same time.
A man cannot be justified and unjust at the same time.

This sort of mental gymnastics sells books and confuses the double minded (a thing the Bible warns against).
The logic alone proves the idea of pre-existing justification to be a doctrine of the anti-Christ.

You are free, however, to accept any foolish notion you desire.
Be warned that you are fondling a lie and doing yourself a disservice.

Believe it and be damned.
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#58
fivesense

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I don't understand what you mean when you say that everyone is born into one or the other classification (predestined vs. free will).

Consider this; that the Bible indicates we are ALL sinners.
The theology is original sin, but you get the picture when the prophet says we are all gone astray and that no one seeks after God. No one at all.

Consider also; that the Bible teaches we are all RESPONSIBLE for our sins.
The book of Hebrews specifically declares that after the end of one life, each human is subject to divine judgment (9:27).

The doctrine of predestination opposes Biblical responsibility, while the philosophy of free will violates Biblical teachings on sin.

We are all sinners. We cannot help but be sinners. We will all be judged for our sin.

How about that for being caught between a rock and a hard place?

Fussing about it won't solve the problem and angry accusations of the most high will not serve as justification before the great throne of the Almighty.

What is a man to do?

Stay tuned for the startling answer.


Are you certain, that "we will be judged for our sin"? I would direct your attention to the following:

Jn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Jn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

No one will be judged for their sins. Israel was and is under the Law, and will be judged according to transgression against God. The nations never had the Law or the ordinances. We were the source of offenses against God, not transgressions. Where there is no law, there is no transgression.

Ro 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.

Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law

It is a flawed premise, that we will be judged for our sins, if we are not in Christ. The reasoning is unscriptural and false. The Jews are the only people that are guilty of transgressions against God. The rest of mankind are the subject of offenses, not law-breaking.

2C 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

There is no judgment for sin. The condemnation which leads to the second death, the only other judgment left, is not believing on the Son of God. The bloody cross, the scandal of the murder of the Holy One Who was totally innocent, was the perfect sacrifice satisfying the Father of us all.

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Jn 1:29 . The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

With such clear and unequivocal statements of Holy Spirit to us, it is uncertain why one should cleave to a false premise as has been stated above. Ignorance and unbelief can carry much dominance over our thinking, should we fail to believe the Word of God.

fivesense
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#59
Butch5

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Hey everybody

Age old debate Predestination vs. Free Will. Just want to hear your veiws on the matter.


It is not either or, it is both. God has given man free will to choose to follow Him, and He has predestine that all who follow Him will be conformed to the image of His Son.
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And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe;

Justin Martyr

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#60
pastorlesofm

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It is not either or, it is both. God has given man free will to choose to follow Him, and He has predestine that all who follow Him will be conformed to the image of His Son.



You get a BIG Amen for that Butch
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