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Are Churches Becoming Too Commercialized??

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#1
Unifique77

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I came upon this Man-on-the-Street show on youtube and it really hit the nail in the head regarding some of the lingering thoughts that I had regarding church & money

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=rAFJsB0TNvE


A church needs money to survive, but how do you draw the line between getting money to survive and getting money for profit? I think its very easy to cross that line.

A church exists for the sake of spreading the word of God, but it is also an institution run by men, men who are fallible and are easily tempted, men who may have their own motives and aspirations.

And are glossy, high tech, stadium-like churches really necessary? Do we really need church to look like a rock concert?

I think there's a dichotomy here, Christianity in the end is supposed to be holy and spiritual, but at the same time, it exists in a capitalistic world where it has to play by its rules in order to survive
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#2
rjp34652@yahoo.com

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The temptation for a charismatic leader to build his own ego-maniac empire is irresistable. They love the universal welcome in all places, they love the academic accolades, and they love the high position in all aspects of society.

Are glossy churches necessary?
As a resident of the Great State of Disney (Central Florida/Tampa-Orlando), I can testify that big bang Vegas style church services are all the rage.
They are necessary in so far as they bring attention to Christ.....about as much as the Rock musical Jesus Christ Superstar several decades ago.

Occasionally a good word is put out, but the spirit of God does not normally abide there.
He cannot usually be found in the hi tech centers of show-worship (its hard to see angels in the midst of all the glaring lights, rock music, latte coffee service and salesmen who hawk everything from books and music to financal banking services).

Pity. We need Him more than ever these days.

When the disciples of Jesus pointed to the Great Temple and wondered at its beauty, He told them that its ruin was coming.

As the Great Temple of Jesus day was cast down, so shall SOME OF the great halls of today be forgotten and cast aside.

"I hate, I despise your feasts, and I will take no delight in your solemn assemblies."

Amos 5:21
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#3
shnarkle

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I don't go to church to worship. I go to church for the production value, to socialize, etc. That's what church is all about these days. It's better than a Vegas show and there's no cover charge. Sometimes I'll hit one service after another just like I used to go club hopping in Vegas. It's a poor man's Disneyland. Some churches even have these first time guest baskets, and since Jesus makes all things new again, I'm a perpetual first time guest. One of the great things about hitting all churches is that people never get tired of seeing you. They treat you like you're a celebrity. The Baptists have the best singing, The Presbyterians have the best sermons, the Seventh day Adventists have the best food, and when I want a little fire and brimstone and some bingo afterwards, I hit a Catholic service.
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#4
lforrest

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I don't go to church to worship. I go to church for the production value, to socialize, etc. That's what church is all about these days. It's better than a Vegas show and there's no cover charge. Sometimes I'll hit one service after another just like I used to go club hopping in Vegas. It's a poor man's Disneyland. Some churches even have these first time guest baskets, and since Jesus makes all things new again, I'm a perpetual first time guest. One of the great things about hitting all churches is that people never get tired of seeing you. They treat you like you're a celebrity. The Baptists have the best singing, The Presbyterians have the best sermons, the Seventh day Adventists have the best food, and when I want a little fire and brimstone and some bingo afterwards, I hit a Catholic service.


Why so snarky Shnarkle?
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#5
shnarkle

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Why so snarky Shnarkle?


Shnarky is my middle name, but everything I posted is the gospel truth; except that the Baptist preaching is pretty good too, and the black southern gospel revival music is, barring the music of the heavenly host itself; the best there is on this planet of the clocks. Bingo is actually one of the best antidotes to fiery brimstone. Haven't you ever noticed the expressions on the faces plastered across the front pages of The Bingo Bugle? Their eyeballs are changing sockets. You could crack their shins with a baseball bat and they wouldn't even notice.
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#6
7angels

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i believe i heard it but explained when someone told me that God treats His church like a business.  happy employees are good employees.   God is not poor so why should christians be poor.  the higher up in management you get to the more benefits you gain.  God is an opportunity employer for everyone.  He does not discriminate.  but God does not allow stealing, sabotage, and ect within His company.  if you don't obey the rules you can be fired.  if you think about it God runs His church just like a business.  hope this helps

 

God bless


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#7
Josho

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I came upon this Man-on-the-Street show on youtube and it really hit the nail in the head regarding some of the lingering thoughts that I had regarding church & money

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=rAFJsB0TNvE


A church needs money to survive, but how do you draw the line between getting money to survive and getting money for profit? I think its very easy to cross that line.

A church exists for the sake of spreading the word of God, but it is also an institution run by men, men who are fallible and are easily tempted, men who may have their own motives and aspirations.

And are glossy, high tech, stadium-like churches really necessary? Do we really need church to look like a rock concert?

I think there's a dichotomy here, Christianity in the end is supposed to be holy and spiritual, but at the same time, it exists in a capitalistic world where it has to play by its rules in order to survive

In my opinion these flash, high tech, stadium like, concert like Churches really are not necessary, after all Church was never meant to be a rock concert, the modern day churches today can be compared to the government, ya put your offerings in the basket at church, and you pay your taxes to the government a percentage of what you earn, and that money doesn't always get spent wisely and is spent in excess, on unnecessary things, people get overpaid, and they try to pack in as much as they can into the schedule and make it as busy as possible, but only manage to squeeze in a 33 minute sermon, it's just not how a Church or government should be ran, there is also a massive case of lack of discernment in the Church today, I won't point a finger in anyone particular, but they get these worldly musicians and singers, to get the sound to match today's mainstream top 100s music. In many Churches today, being led by the Holy Spirit has gone down the drain. Way too many churches are worried about how much they are getting in the offering basket, whether if it's lack of money or lets see how many thousands we can draw from the 5,000 strong crowd today or whether if they are putting on enough events. 



When we look at Mark chapter 6 when Jesus sent his disciples out to ministry and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to heal every sickness and disease, we learn that they were instructed to take nothing but a staff for the journey, no food, no bag, no "money", to wear sandals and not to wear 2 tunics. The early Church were to completely rely on and trust God, now we can look at cases where people like my dad, have received a free airplane ticket at the eleventh hour, he went to the airport with no money, why? because he was just following God's instructions to fly to America, and he trusted him no matter how little he had in his pocket, he has even trusted God to get him places with empty petrol tanks, for miles and miles and miles, another case some other guy in Boston, his name is Howard Willard, now he isn't that famous or anything, he just does what the Lord tells him and travels to hundreds of countries around the world to preach, heal and cast out demons, even resurrect people from the dead, and trusts for God to provide, and he once got God's provision from some wealthy lady, just a random lady, he didn't even know her, and the Lord told this lady to give $2 million to Howard. Now this is how the church should be ran, it should be ran on faith and not the fear of lack of money or wanting to upgrade their churches all the time, forget the building, it's not about the building, it's not about the schedule, it's not about who has the most social events, the Church is meant to be about Jesus, Jesus should be the center of focus, that should be the main reason anyone goes there, to worship him, build up their spiritual muscle, and build up their faith, and the worship team's job is to let the Holy Ghost fly and let the Holy Ghost completely take over the service from them and let him saturate the place.

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#8
FHII

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Hello Josho

For the moment, I cautiously agree with you.

The purpose of the Church is to teach the gospel and to gather for worship. Those are the primary 2 purposes and the building is simply the venue.

I started to get caught up in your comment about "church isn't supposed to be a rock concert". Well, if you are speaking in terms of promoting a show and trying to put bodies in seats... I agree.

I wouldn't agree with that if you meant a Christian service couldn't be lively or flashy. Remember.... The song service is for God's enjoyment (its worshipping HIM), not ours but we can enjoy it. Furthermore, we are part of that entertainment.

Some won't like that, but there are plenty of verses in psalms that say praise him with music and dancing.

Then again, God gets pleasure seeing a preacher get on a plane with no questions asked to do his will!

Here's my point: I don't mind big production services if its all for God's pleasure. You will never get a preacher to say it isn't, but if you have doubts you are in good company. Lot of times I doubt it too.

There are other things.... Pastors should get a good salary. A Church shoukd be allowed a savings account or investments. I do have Bible on both those points.

I also want to discuss Jesus sending out his disciples without money. They were supposed to be supported by the people they visited. If the people didn't take them in, well... They were cursed.
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#9
FHII

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Hello Josho

For the moment, I cautiously agree with you.

The purpose of the Church is to teach the gospel and to gather for worship. Those are the primary 2 purposes and the building is simply the venue.

I started to get caught up in your comment about "church isn't supposed to be a rock concert". Well, if you are speaking in terms of promoting a show and trying to put bodies in seats... I agree.

I wouldn't agree with that if you meant a Christian service couldn't be lively or flashy. Remember.... The song service is for God's enjoyment (its worshipping HIM), not ours but we can enjoy it. Furthermore, we are part of that entertainment.

Some won't like that, but there are plenty of verses in psalms that say praise him with music and dancing.

Then again, God gets pleasure seeing a preacher get on a plane with no questions asked to do his will!

Here's my point: I don't mind big production services if its all for God's pleasure. You will never get a preacher to say it isn't, but if you have doubts you are in good company. Lot of times I doubt it too.

There are other things.... Pastors should get a good salary. A Church shoukd be allowed a savings account or investments. I do have Bible on both those points.

I also want to discuss Jesus sending out his disciples without money. They were supposed to be supported by the people they visited. If the people didn't take them in, well... They were cursed.
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#10
Josho

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Hello Josho

For the moment, I cautiously agree with you.

The purpose of the Church is to teach the gospel and to gather for worship. Those are the primary 2 purposes and the building is simply the venue.

I started to get caught up in your comment about "church isn't supposed to be a rock concert". Well, if you are speaking in terms of promoting a show and trying to put bodies in seats... I agree.

I wouldn't agree with that if you meant a Christian service couldn't be lively or flashy. Remember.... The song service is for God's enjoyment (its worshipping HIM), not ours but we can enjoy it. Furthermore, we are part of that entertainment.

Some won't like that, but there are plenty of verses in psalms that say praise him with music and dancing.

Then again, God gets pleasure seeing a preacher get on a plane with no questions asked to do his will!

Here's my point: I don't mind big production services if its all for God's pleasure. You will never get a preacher to say it isn't, but if you have doubts you are in good company. Lot of times I doubt it too.

There are other things.... Pastors should get a good salary. A Church shoukd be allowed a savings account or investments. I do have Bible on both those points.

I also want to discuss Jesus sending out his disciples without money. They were supposed to be supported by the people they visited. If the people didn't take them in, well... They were cursed.

And that's not what i meant by "flashy", a church service should be lively and enjoyable, after all we are worshiping the living God, but to do that ya don't need to upgrade your church every few years, as i said it's about Jesus and not the structure. Now about Jesus sending out his disciples with no money, they had to trust Jesus, that they will have somewhere to stay and something to eat. But it's more to the point that they shouldn't worry about how much they are getting in the offering basket. But for a big Christian conference $300 per person, now i disagree with that, for obvious reasons, it shouldn't only be for the rich to attend, if people wanna chuck in $300 bucks let em do it, let them give out of their heart, not because they have to pay half their weekly earned wage, it should be affordable, so any ordinary working man can take a poor man along if they want to for just an extra 30 bucks or whatever.

Out of curiosity where can I find verses in the Bible on that "Pastors should get a good salary. A Church shoukd be allowed a savings account or investments. I do have Bible on both those points." There are a number of people from the outside, who just wonder how much money that mega church must be raking in, and there are a lot of them who we should be leading to God, but they only see the greed and corruption of the Church, especially right here in Australia, and yes there is some truth in that, for an example, 95% of the money goes to us (the Church elders), and we will only help out the poor with 5% of it, I'm not saying every Church is like that but some are like that as you probably would already know. 


Edited by Josho, 23 February 2017 - 11:36 PM.

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#11
FHII

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Out of curiosity where can I find verses in the Bible on that "Pastors should get a good salary. A Church shoukd be allowed a savings account or investments. I do have Bible on both those points." There are a number of people from the outside, who just wonder how much money that mega church must be raking in, and there are a lot of them who we should be leading to God, but they only see the greed and corruption of the Church, especially right here in Australia, and yes there is some truth in that, for an example, 95% of the money goes to us (the Church elders), and we will only help out the poor with 5% of it, I'm not saying every Church is like that but some are like that as you probably would already know. 

 

 

Mal 3:10:  Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

 

This is one of the verses that speaks of "a savings" account.  You can look at Luke 12:40-45 and Matt 25:22-23 where he talks about being a good steward as "investing".  Yes, I know it's trying to make a deeper, spiritual point, but it is still relevant to running a Church.

 

As for the Pastor's salary, I can kill 2 birds with one stone on this one.  You were speaking of Mark and the account of Jesus sending his disciples to preach without money.... Look at the parallel account in Matthew 10:10.  Jesus said a workman is worthy of his meat.


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#12
Josho

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Mal 3:10:  Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

 

This is one of the verses that speaks of "a savings" account.  You can look at Luke 12:40-45 and Matt 25:22-23 where he talks about being a good steward as "investing".  Yes, I know it's trying to make a deeper, spiritual point, but it is still relevant to running a Church.

 

As for the Pastor's salary, I can kill 2 birds with one stone on this one.  You were speaking of Mark and the account of Jesus sending his disciples to preach without money.... Look at the parallel account in Matthew 10:10.  Jesus said a workman is worthy of his meat.

Thanks for the response, but when it comes to million dollar salaries for pastors, what do ya think about that? Fine if they do other work too to make that much, but if that is all out of of the offering basket, is that right? It would be like the poor widow who gives all that she has, and the rich man who gives little, I'm not saying Churches have to give all to help out those in need either, it's just a biblical example.


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#13
FHII

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Thanks for the response, but when it comes to million dollar salaries for pastors, what do ya think about that? Fine if they do other work too to make that much, but if that is all out of of the offering basket, is that right? It would be like the poor widow who gives all that she has, and the rich man who gives little, I'm not saying Churches have to give all to help out those in need either, it's just a biblical example.


In the U.S. a Pastor can take up to 1/3 the offering (under the tax code for non profit organizatiins). In the Bible the Levites got to keep it all.

I don't really see a Biblical limit for what a Pastor can keep. Paul actually had a lot to say about giving. He never said anything about percentages or a top base salary. However, he did do some relief work and clearly the offering was used for travelling expenses.

My point is that it was all Paul's, but he used it for the spreading of the gospel.

In short, I really don't have a problem what any Pastor makes. I am more concerned with if he's preaching truth. If they really are a Man of God, the Lord will chastize them if they do wrong.
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#14
Marymog

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In the U.S. a Pastor can take up to 1/3 the offering (under the tax code for non profit organizatiins). In the Bible the Levites got to keep it all.

I don't really see a Biblical limit for what a Pastor can keep. Paul actually had a lot to say about giving. He never said anything about percentages or a top base salary. However, he did do some relief work and clearly the offering was used for travelling expenses.

My point is that it was all Paul's, but he used it for the spreading of the gospel.

In short, I really don't have a problem what any Pastor makes. I am more concerned with if he's preaching truth. If they really are a Man of God, the Lord will chastize them if they do wrong.

Hi FHII,

 

I have some thoughts on this. I actually got into a discussion with my son about this several years ago and I sent him this:

 

What is a fair salary for a pastor of a church? Some would argue it largely depends on the size of the church. Is it a mega-church with thousands of members or small town chapel with only a few hundred? Some pastors have college degrees and put in long hours tending to their members. Others have no degree but have become the pastor due to their great passion and speaking (preaching) ability. They also put in as many hours as the pastor with a degree. So which do you pay more? The pastor with the degree who gives good philisophical sermons and faithfully tends to his members or the pastor with no degree who gives fiery/passionate sermons who also faithfully tends to his members? “The Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel” (1Corinthians 9:14). This quote is often used to back up the notion that a pastor should be paid because The Lord says so! But if we read further into the same passage the writer (the apostle Paul) asked, “What then is my reward?”. He answers his own question by saying, “in my preaching I may make the gospel free of charge, not making full use of my right in the gospel” (1 Corinthians 9:18).  For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you.  It was not because we do not have that right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate (2 Thessalonians 3:7-9). So the apostle Paul basically said according to the Lord the church should pay him, but he didn’t want to be paid and he worked night and day so that he may not be a burden. He was being a good example for them to imitate. So if our pastors are supposed to be apostles for our Lord, shouldn’t they follow in the footsteps of the first apostles? If a person truly feels they are called to preach the word of God and be an apostle for God, wouldn’t they do it free of charge like Paul did and be a good example to imitate?

 

            If a congregation wants a professional full time pastor to manage the church and be on call like a doctor then yes they should be paid accordingly. The pastor is basically running a business and could be in charge of several employees/volunteers. But what is a fair payment? If the church is in New York or LA then the cost of living is obviously going to be higher than a church located in rural Arkansas or Montana. So maybe the answer is to pay the pastor what the average salary is of its members. How much more fair can you get than that?

 

            Most preachers make an average salary for the work they do in the church. But what concerns me are the preachers who are given a salary of hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.  Some of those preachers add to their salary by selling books. These wealthy preachers ask their congregation to give to the church so the church can continue to do great things. These same pastors are living in million dollar homes, have private jets (with their own hanger) and drive very expensive cars. Sounds like the “great things” their church is doing is supporting the lavish lifestyle they live.

 

            When Jesus sent his apostles out he told them to “take nothing for their journey except a staff; no bread, no bag, no money in their belts; but to wear sandals and not put on two tunics”. (Mark 6:7-9)  What would Jesus say to them if they came back with their belts over flowing with money, new clothes, jewelry and a nice pair of shoes? Would he say, it’s ok guys, as long as you were preaching the word of God and casting out unclean spirits like I asked you too! You can keep all that stuff. Or, should these wealthy pastors do as the apostles did and make sure “there was not a needy person among them” and distribute the wealth “to each as any had need” (Acts 4:34-35).  I don’t think Jesus would be happy with the wealth that these pastors have accumulated; I think He would tell them to distribute the wealth. These wealthy pastors should remember the story of Ananias and Sapphira who tried to deceive Peter about money. Peter said to Ananias, ”why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land?” (Acts 5: 1-3).  Has Satan filled the hearts of these wealthy pastors? Have these wealthy pastors forgotten that the bible says the love of money is the root of all evils” (1Timothy 6:10).  Do these wealthy pastors skip over the part of the bible that says, No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money”  (Mathew 6:24). Have these wealthy pastors forgotten the example the poor widow set who gave two copper coins to her church and Jesus said of her,  Truly, I say to you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the treasury.  For they all contributed out of their abundance; but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, her whole living.” (Mark 12: 42-44) Do these wealthy pastors conveniently skip over Hebrews 13:5 which says,  Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have; for he has said, “I will never fail you nor forsake you.”

 

            So to sum it all up I believe pastors should be paid what the average salary is of their congregation, however, a pastor who is truly only interested in serving God, preaching his word and saving peoples souls would live below his means and do great things with the extra money they are given. He would live in an average house, in an average neighborhood living next to the average church goers who pays their salary via tithes. I don’t think Jesus would be unhappy with that. If those wealthy pastors wanted to be perfect in the eyes of Jesus he would tell them to “sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven…” (Matthew 19:21).  I suppose that these wealthy pastors would do the same thing that the rich young man did once Jesus told him those words. They would go away sorrowful, for they have great possessions (Matthew 19:22).  These wealthy pastors are probably good people who sin less than I, however, their hypocrisy is on public display when they preach from the bible about helping the poor by giving your money but don’t live by the bible like they ask you and I to do. We were warned ”do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.” Do they not feel guilty for getting rich abusing the gospel of Jesus and off the backs of the hard working men and women who support the church financially?

 

            The one thing Jesus said to his disciples that these wealthy pastors should remember is, “Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 19:23) and …”none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions (Luke 14:23).

 

 

How difficult it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!” (Mark 10:23)


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#15
FHII

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Hi FHII,

I have some thoughts on this. I actually got into a discussion with my son about this several years ago and I sent him this:

What is a fair salary for a pastor of a church? Some would argue it largely depends on the size of the church. Is it a mega-church with thousands of members or small town chapel with only a few hundred? Some pastors have college degrees and put in long hours tending to their members. Others have no degree but have become the pastor due to their great passion and speaking (preaching) ability. They also put in as many hours as the pastor with a degree. So which do you pay more? The pastor with the degree who gives good philisophical sermons and faithfully tends to his members or the pastor with no degree who gives fiery/passionate sermons who also faithfully tends to his members? “The Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel” (1Corinthians 9:14). This quote is often used to back up the notion that a pastor should be paid because The Lord says so! But if we read further into the same passage the writer (the apostle Paul) asked, “What then is my reward?”. He answers his own question by saying, “in my preaching I may make the gospel free of charge, not making full use of my right in the gospel” (1 Corinthians 9:18). For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you. It was not because we do not have that right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate (2 Thessalonians 3:7-9). So the apostle Paul basically said according to the Lord the church should pay him, but he didn’t want to be paid and he worked night and day so that he may not be a burden. He was being a good example for them to imitate. So if our pastors are supposed to be apostles for our Lord, shouldn’t they follow in the footsteps of the first apostles? If a person truly feels they are called to preach the word of God and be an apostle for God, wouldn’t they do it free of charge like Paul did and be a good example to imitate?

If a congregation wants a professional full time pastor to manage the church and be on call like a doctor then yes they should be paid accordingly. The pastor is basically running a business and could be in charge of several employees/volunteers. But what is a fair payment? If the church is in New York or LA then the cost of living is obviously going to be higher than a church located in rural Arkansas or Montana. So maybe the answer is to pay the pastor what the average salary is of its members. How much more fair can you get than that?

Most preachers make an average salary for the work they do in the church. But what concerns me are the preachers who are given a salary of hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Some of those preachers add to their salary by selling books. These wealthy preachers ask their congregation to give to the church so the church can continue to do great things. These same pastors are living in million dollar homes, have private jets (with their own hanger) and drive very expensive cars. Sounds like the “great things” their church is doing is supporting the lavish lifestyle they live.

When Jesus sent his apostles out he told them to “take nothing for their journey except a staff; no bread, no bag, no money in their belts; but to wear sandals and not put on two tunics”. (Mark 6:7-9) What would Jesus say to them if they came back with their belts over flowing with money, new clothes, jewelry and a nice pair of shoes? Would he say, it’s ok guys, as long as you were preaching the word of God and casting out unclean spirits like I asked you too! You can keep all that stuff. Or, should these wealthy pastors do as the apostles did and make sure “there was not a needy person among them” and distribute the wealth “to each as any had need” (Acts 4:34-35). I don’t think Jesus would be happy with the wealth that these pastors have accumulated; I think He would tell them to distribute the wealth. These wealthy pastors should remember the story of Ananias and Sapphira who tried to deceive Peter about money. Peter said to Ananias, ”why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land?” (Acts 5: 1-3). Has Satan filled the hearts of these wealthy pastors? Have these wealthy pastors forgotten that the bible says the love of money is the root of all evils” (1Timothy 6:10). Do these wealthy pastors skip over the part of the bible that says, No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money” (Mathew 6:24). Have these wealthy pastors forgotten the example the poor widow set who gave two copper coins to her church and Jesus said of her, Truly, I say to you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the treasury. For they all contributed out of their abundance; but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, her whole living.” (Mark 12: 42-44) Do these wealthy pastors conveniently skip over Hebrews 13:5 which says, Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have; for he has said, “I will never fail you nor forsake you.”

So to sum it all up I believe pastors should be paid what the average salary is of their congregation, however, a pastor who is truly only interested in serving God, preaching his word and saving peoples souls would live below his means and do great things with the extra money they are given. He would live in an average house, in an average neighborhood living next to the average church goers who pays their salary via tithes. I don’t think Jesus would be unhappy with that. If those wealthy pastors wanted to be perfect in the eyes of Jesus he would tell them to “sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven…” (Matthew 19:21). I suppose that these wealthy pastors would do the same thing that the rich young man did once Jesus told him those words. They would go away sorrowful, for they have great possessions (Matthew 19:22). These wealthy pastors are probably good people who sin less than I, however, their hypocrisy is on public display when they preach from the bible about helping the poor by giving your money but don’t live by the bible like they ask you and I to do. We were warned ”do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.” Do they not feel guilty for getting rich abusing the gospel of Jesus and off the backs of the hard working men and women who support the church financially?

The one thing Jesus said to his disciples that these wealthy pastors should remember is, “Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 19:23) and …”none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions (Luke 14:23).


How difficult it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!” (Mark 10:23)



Marymog,

Wow! Forgot all about this thread and sorry i haven't responded quicker. I'm afraid I cannot answer as well as I want on my cell phone as I want. That is, with detailed scripture. I will do my best.

In the OT it was clearly defined what the Levites got: 10% and there were some bonuses here and there. In the NT, they were still technically under the law during Jesus' ministry. Jesus even said tithing ought to be done. But shortly after the pentacost and especially during Paul's ministry a new standard was set. I will give that later.

You brought up church size, college degrees, long hours, great speaking abilities, "in the trench" work (my term for getting involved with persomal lives and problems of congegants). All important, but I somewhat disregard that. Not totally.

Romans 10 says preachers are semt by God. Doesn't always mean they have those attributes or even are good at what they do. Paul was highly educated and history says Peter was an illiterate fisherman. Moses was highly educated but was of slow speech. Doesn't matter to God.

You brought up 1 cor. Yes Paul didn't demand money from them even though he acknowledged the right to.

We should understand something about the Corinthians. They were babes in Christ and had a history of financial saavyness. paul MIGJT have perceived them as being tight-fisted with their money. Nonetheless. Paul did later in that letter ask for a contribution for the Church at Jerusalem. And in his se ond letter he asked for funding of his missionary desires (to Rome and Spain, if I remember correctly).

Also remember the nature of 1 Cor. It was a rebuking letter. A harsh one! The fact that he said he didn't ask what was his right was kind of part of the rebuke in that he was putting them to shame ( while at the same time being funded bythe Philippians... I believe... Again, memory might not be correct).

Paul laid down the rebuke and the Corinthians responded rightly. In 2 Cor, like I said, he does ask for funding for his evangelistic missions. In other words, cash to live on and do his business. Paul was a true pastor! His life was God's work! But he needed hotel fair, dining expenses, "cab money" and maybe even entertainment money...

Let me acknowledge you seem to be concerned with pastors with private jets and accomodatons at 5 star hotels... Duely noted. I haven't forgotten that point.

I want to address the letters to the Thesselonians. Paul did say he labored amongst them so they wouldn't be a burden. He said that in both letters. But in 1 thes 2 he noted what he did: he preached the gospel.

See, that wad Paul's profession. Not a lawyer, not a judge, not a tentmaker... Though he did all those things. He was an apostle firat and foremost in the history of his life and most of the time he lived off the offering. And by "lived" I mean he spent his life going throughout the known world preaching. I suspect he had a few moments of downtime (got a shocking verse to show that), but overall his purse was also the Church coffer.

Next I want to assure and remind you that in every one of his epistles except one or two he talked about giving to the ministry.

I have to slightly digress and discuss what Jesus said. When he sent his disciples out and said leave your wallet at home, he was basically saing that those they preached to should provide their lodging, thei food, and other needs.

I don't see anywhere in this Jesus being upset if they came back wirh money. Especially when i see Jesus asking Judas if they had any money to buy foid for 5000 followers. Yea... Jesus was setting up a miracle... But the fact that he asked shows that he expected the money to be there!

I have one more point to makebefore my conclusion: Jesus said we could lay up for ourselves treasure in heaven (mat 6). Paul told the Philippians that by their giving they gad fruit abounding to thei account.

Thus... Giving may financially benefit the pastor in the flesh.... Praise God. But it really edifies us and benefits us spiritually.

I know thats hard to swallow... But our money is our time spent. When we are earning money at work we have the opportunity togiGodthat to God.

So ourgiving is much more a blessing to us than it is to the preacher. Yet Gal 5 says we give for the teaching and giving to the teacher allows him tofocus on teaching, which blesses us.

Now about those megachurch preachers.... God is going to get them if they are at fault. I reckon he can do abetter job at dealing with them than I can. Furthermore, you and I can only suspect all the wrongdoing they are doing.

But God knows! Vengence is his!

Now, about that verse that dictates a REAL pastor's salary:

2 Corinthians 9:[7] Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give ; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.


That's how much a Christian should give and that's how much a pastor should earn.
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#16
Marymog

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Marymog,

Wow! Forgot all about this thread and sorry i haven't responded quicker. I'm afraid I cannot answer as well as I want on my cell phone as I want. That is, with detailed scripture. I will do my best.

In the OT it was clearly defined what the Levites got: 10% and there were some bonuses here and there. In the NT, they were still technically under the law during Jesus' ministry. Jesus even said tithing ought to be done. But shortly after the pentacost and especially during Paul's ministry a new standard was set. I will give that later.

You brought up church size, college degrees, long hours, great speaking abilities, "in the trench" work (my term for getting involved with persomal lives and problems of congegants). All important, but I somewhat disregard that. Not totally.

Romans 10 says preachers are semt by God. Doesn't always mean they have those attributes or even are good at what they do. Paul was highly educated and history says Peter was an illiterate fisherman. Moses was highly educated but was of slow speech. Doesn't matter to God.

You brought up 1 cor. Yes Paul didn't demand money from them even though he acknowledged the right to.

We should understand something about the Corinthians. They were babes in Christ and had a history of financial saavyness. paul MIGJT have perceived them as being tight-fisted with their money. Nonetheless. Paul did later in that letter ask for a contribution for the Church at Jerusalem. And in his se ond letter he asked for funding of his missionary desires (to Rome and Spain, if I remember correctly).

Also remember the nature of 1 Cor. It was a rebuking letter. A harsh one! The fact that he said he didn't ask what was his right was kind of part of the rebuke in that he was putting them to shame ( while at the same time being funded bythe Philippians... I believe... Again, memory might not be correct).

Paul laid down the rebuke and the Corinthians responded rightly. In 2 Cor, like I said, he does ask for funding for his evangelistic missions. In other words, cash to live on and do his business. Paul was a true pastor! His life was God's work! But he needed hotel fair, dining expenses, "cab money" and maybe even entertainment money...

Let me acknowledge you seem to be concerned with pastors with private jets and accomodatons at 5 star hotels... Duely noted. I haven't forgotten that point.

I want to address the letters to the Thesselonians. Paul did say he labored amongst them so they wouldn't be a burden. He said that in both letters. But in 1 thes 2 he noted what he did: he preached the gospel.

See, that wad Paul's profession. Not a lawyer, not a judge, not a tentmaker... Though he did all those things. He was an apostle firat and foremost in the history of his life and most of the time he lived off the offering. And by "lived" I mean he spent his life going throughout the known world preaching. I suspect he had a few moments of downtime (got a shocking verse to show that), but overall his purse was also the Church coffer.

Next I want to assure and remind you that in every one of his epistles except one or two he talked about giving to the ministry.

I have to slightly digress and discuss what Jesus said. When he sent his disciples out and said leave your wallet at home, he was basically saing that those they preached to should provide their lodging, thei food, and other needs.

I don't see anywhere in this Jesus being upset if they came back wirh money. Especially when i see Jesus asking Judas if they had any money to buy foid for 5000 followers. Yea... Jesus was setting up a miracle... But the fact that he asked shows that he expected the money to be there!

I have one more point to make before my conclusion: Jesus said we could lay up for ourselves treasure in heaven (mat 6). Paul told the Philippians that by their giving they gad fruit abounding to thei account.

Thus... Giving may financially benefit the pastor in the flesh.... Praise God. But it really edifies us and benefits us spiritually.

I know thats hard to swallow... But our money is our time spent. When we are earning money at work we have the opportunity togiGodthat to God.

So ourgiving is much more a blessing to us than it is to the preacher. Yet Gal 5 says we give for the teaching and giving to the teacher allows him to focus on teaching, which blesses us.

Now about those megachurch preachers.... God is going to get them if they are at fault. I reckon he can do a better job at dealing with them than I can. Furthermore, you and I can only suspect all the wrongdoing they are doing.

But God knows! Vengence is his!

Now, about that verse that dictates a REAL pastor's salary:

2 Corinthians 9:[7] Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give ; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

That's how much a Christian should give and that's how much a pastor should earn.

Dear FHII,

 

I can't find anywhere in scripture that says "Jesus even said tithing ought to be done."

 

Here is what he said about the matter in Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42 which both say basically the same thing:  Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former."

 

As you can see Jesus was scolding the scribes and Pharisees for paying tithes while neglecting  justice, mercy and faithfulness.  In other words Jesus was saying the tithe was one of the least important commandments of the Mosaic Law.  When Jesus mentions tithes he is referring only to tithing as practiced under Mosaic Law. He is not telling his disciples to tithe.

 

And in Luke 18 Jesus told this parable: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector.  I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ “I tell you that this man (the tax collector), rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

 

The point of Jesus’ message in these verses is not about tithing. The verses illustrate how critical Jesus was of religious legalism and self-righteousness and hypocrisy.

 

What he was teaching is that following religious laws/rituals/traditions is not the same as knowing God and having an intimate relationship with God; he was encouraging humility.  Jesus made it clear that practicing religious laws/rituals/traditions does not make one person better than someone who does not do those things.

 

 

Now FHII lets be honest here. I did not say that Jesus would be upset if they came back with money. We agree that the church needs money to operate.  I only asked What would Jesus say to them if they came back with their belts over flowing with money, new clothes, jewelry and a nice pair of shoes? Lets put that scenario in a more modern perspective. What if they came back with new cars, PlayStations, iPhones, 100 gallons of ice cream (I like ice cream) and the promise of a  jet to fly them anywhere they want, anytime they want? I hope changing the scenario to modern times helps convey my point and clear up any misunderstanding.

 

OH goodness FHII. You referenced part of Matthew 6 "lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven" but you left out the prelude: Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal,". Could he be talking about money? Cars? PlayStations? Ice cream? 200 pairs of shoes?  I think he is.

 

FHII you can give all you want to your pastor if you feel that's where your money should go. If that pastor follows scripture he will in turn keep what he needs and give the rest to those in need. If he disobeys scripture he will be living in a nice house with a pool, new cars, multiple vacations every year and lots of expensive clothes, a private jet at his disposal and 200 gallons of ice cream in the freezer which is probably a better life style than the poor souls giving him the money. That my friend would be wrong.

Your reference to 2 Corinthians 9 about it being the verse that dictates a REAL pastor's salary is a bit confusing to me. What you referenced is about GIVING and it further references giving to the poor. Nothing about a pastors salary. What point are you trying to make? I missed it.

 

Mary


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#17
FHII

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Mary

If the disciples showed up with 200 gallons of ice cream he would've been ticked off.... Its hot in Israel. It would've all melted.

OR

it wouldn't have melted and Jesus would've said, "see? I told you that you would do greater miracles"!

Seriously... Im going to have to get back to you on this in about a week. I can't properly resond.

Good job and I'll get back to you.
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#18
Marymog

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Mary

If the disciples showed up with 200 gallons of ice cream he would've been ticked off.... Its hot in Israel. It would've all melted.

OR

it wouldn't have melted and Jesus would've said, "see? I told you that you would do greater miracles"!

Seriously... Im going to have to get back to you on this in about a week. I can't properly resond.

Good job and I'll get back to you.

I like your sense of humor.

 

I will hold you accountable for your promise to get back to me next week. :wub:

 

Just kidding. If you are not able to come up with a rebuttal I won't be upset with you.

 

Are you a pastor for a church?

 

Mary


Edited by Marymog, 15 March 2017 - 11:34 AM.

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#19
Josho

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I like your sense of humor.

 

I will hold you accountable for your promise to get back to me next week. :wub:

 

Just kidding. If you are not able to come up with a rebuttal I won't be upset with you.

 

Are you a pastor for a church?

 

Mary

:o it's been a week, i guess this would be a nice reminder hahha


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#20
Josho

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Mal 3:10:  Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

 

This is one of the verses that speaks of "a savings" account.  You can look at Luke 12:40-45 and Matt 25:22-23 where he talks about being a good steward as "investing".  Yes, I know it's trying to make a deeper, spiritual point, but it is still relevant to running a Church.

 

As for the Pastor's salary, I can kill 2 birds with one stone on this one.  You were speaking of Mark and the account of Jesus sending his disciples to preach without money.... Look at the parallel account in Matthew 10:10.  Jesus said a workman is worthy of his meat.

 

In the U.S. a Pastor can take up to 1/3 the offering (under the tax code for non profit organizatiins). In the Bible the Levites got to keep it all.

I don't really see a Biblical limit for what a Pastor can keep. Paul actually had a lot to say about giving. He never said anything about percentages or a top base salary. However, he did do some relief work and clearly the offering was used for travelling expenses.

My point is that it was all Paul's, but he used it for the spreading of the gospel.

In short, I really don't have a problem what any Pastor makes. I am more concerned with if he's preaching truth. If they really are a Man of God, the Lord will chastize them if they do wrong.

I have thought about this, and I would say you have nailed it, but it depends though, whether if a Pastor is following the call God has gave him, or if he is just following the call his own flesh gave him. If God tells a person to trust him and to buy, build or start something, and they obey him, and get rich by doing so, then good on him or her, they are rightfully wealthy. But then if someone puts up there hand and becomes a Pastor without the lead of the Holy Spirit, when they are really called to be a commercial fisherman by God, and gets a million bucks out of the Church offering basket, then that isn't really right is it, unless if that man is led by the Holy Spirit to be both. There are apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers, but not everyone is called to be a pastor, just like not everyone is called to be a teacher, it's important that we follow the call of God, otherwise we get plumber Fred preaching a dead message of works at a Church raking in a 2nd income to buy a solid gold toilet seat for himself and we don't want that do we, we want lively churches ran by people who are following the lead of the Holy Spirit equipping others with fire.


Edited by Josho, 21 March 2017 - 01:13 AM.

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#21
Marymog

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I have thought about this, and I would say you have nailed it, but it depends though, whether if a Pastor is following the call God has gave him, or if he is just following the call his own flesh gave him. If God tells a person to trust him and to buy, build or start something, and they obey him, and get rich by doing so, then good on him or her, they are rightfully wealthy. But then if someone puts up there hand and becomes a Pastor without the lead of the Holy Spirit, when they are really called to be a commercial fisherman by God, and gets a million bucks out of the Church offering basket, then that isn't really right is it, unless if that man is led by the Holy Spirit to be both. There are apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers, but not everyone is called to be a pastor, just like not everyone is called to be a teacher, it's important that we follow the call of God, otherwise we get plumber Fred preaching a dead message of works at a Church raking in a 2nd income to buy a solid gold toilet seat for himself and we don't want that do we, we want lively churches ran by people who are following the lead of the Holy Spirit equipping others with fire.

They are rightfully wealthy?

 

Have you not read in scripture when Jesus sent his apostles out he told them to “take nothing for their journey except a staff; no bread, no bag, no money in their belts; but to wear sandals and not put on two tunics” (Mark 6:7-9).

 

It sounds like your opinion is if they came back wealthy Jesus would have been OK with that?

 

Who determines who is "plumber Fred" and who has been truly been "called to be a pastor"? You or the Christian society as a whole?

 

Isn't plumber Fred "rightfully wealthy" if he can afford to "buy a solid gold toilet seat" since he rightfully obtained the money to buy it by preaching the word of God?

 

Jesus said, "sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven…” (Matthew 19:21) He also said "none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions (Luke 14:23).

 

He did not say my disciples can keep whatever they possess that they have rightfully bought with money given to them from the church and they will also have treasure in heaven.

 

My two cents worth.

 

Mary


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#22
Josho

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Have you not read Ecclesiates 5:19? There is no sin in being rich, and not every rich man is wicked. The difference between the kinds I mentioned is one has been led by God to do something, he has followed God's calling, and because of that, God makes that man wealthy, but.... There are other people who follow their flesh, instead of God's individual plan for their life and this is where it can go wrong. Not every Christian is called to be a pastor, and not every Christian is called to be a plumber. I am a strong believer of God having an individual plan for each ones life, if we were to ask him to direct us in the right path he will, but if we go against what God has planned for us that's when people go wrong, you can't run from Ninevah. There are also examples of people in the bible whom God made wealthy, Joseph, David, Solomon, Abraham. So it's possible to be a wealthy man of God, if God gives you wealth.
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#23
Marymog

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Have you not read Ecclesiates 5:19? There is no sin in being rich, and not every rich man is wicked. The difference between the kinds I mentioned is one has been led by God to do something, he has followed God's calling, and because of that, God makes that man wealthy, but.... There are other people who follow their flesh, instead of God's individual plan for their life and this is where it can go wrong. Not every Christian is called to be a pastor, and not every Christian is called to be a plumber. I am a strong believer of God having an individual plan for each ones life, if we were to ask him to direct us in the right path he will, but if we go against what God has planned for us that's when people go wrong, you can't run from Ninevah. There are also examples of people in the bible whom God made wealthy, Joseph, David, Solomon, Abraham. So it's possible to be a wealthy man of God, if God gives you wealth.

Hi Josho,

 

I don't see anywhere I suggested it is a sin to be rich and every rich man is wicked.

 

Is it your opinion that if the disciples came back wealthy Jesus would have been OK with that? (Mark 6:7-9)

 

Why can't Fred be a plumber and a Pastor? Paul was a tentmaker and a Pastor (Acts 18:3).

 

Since Fred rightfully obtained the money thru his plumbing job wouldn't he, according to your logic, rightfully be able to "buy a solid gold toilet seat"?

 

Or is it true that Fred should follow what Jesus said: "sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven…” (Matthew 19:21) He also said "none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions (Luke 14:23).

 

How do we reconcile contradicting passages? Ecclesiastes 5:19 against Matthew and Luke?

 

Mary


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#24
Josho

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Hi Josho,

 

I don't see anywhere I suggested it is a sin to be rich and every rich man is wicked.

 

Is it your opinion that if the disciples came back wealthy Jesus would have been OK with that? (Mark 6:7-9)

 

Why can't Fred be a plumber and a Pastor? Paul was a tentmaker and a Pastor (Acts 18:3).

 

Since Fred rightfully obtained the money thru his plumbing job wouldn't he, according to your logic, rightfully be able to "buy a solid gold toilet seat"?

 

Or is it true that Fred should follow what Jesus said: "sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven…” (Matthew 19:21) He also said "none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions (Luke 14:23).

 

How do we reconcile contradicting passages? Ecclesiastes 5:19 against Matthew and Luke?

 

Mary

Because it wasn't God's plan for Fred to become a pastor in that example, and he didn't have enough money from plumbing to buy the solid gold toilet seat, so he decided to take up preaching just for more money, which is the wrong intention.
 

It's my opinion that the 12 Disciples were given a task by Jesus and they went out and did it, this again goes back to "God's individual plan for each individual person." And we have the Holy Spirit to instruct us and lead us today, if he never told us to be a pastor in anyway, then that's not our call, and when i say told us I don't mean reading the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. There are ways to be led.

You will get the strong feeling that the Holy Spirit is with you in this one, you may even hear an audible voice from the Holy Spirit like "Mary go and be a pastor", God may keep bringing a Bible verse to you and that may be your calling, or he may tell you in a dream or vision, and there are many other ways but this is how God speaks to us and tells us what he wants us to do, or where he wants us to go. This is God's individual plan for each individual person, there are cases where God has told someone where a gold nugget is, and he or she went to that location and found a gold nugget, and got wealthy of that. Now there's nothing wrong about that. It's all a part of God's plan for that person.

Proverbs 13:22 
tells us that the wealth of the wicked is stored up for the righteous

John 10:10 speaks about having life abundantly

James 1:17 tells us that every good and great gift is from above

Psalms 37:11 the meek shall inherit the land

I gotta go now, there are many more Bible verses about the promise of abundance for us
 


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#25
Marymog

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Because it wasn't God's plan for Fred to become a pastor in that example, and he didn't have enough money from plumbing to buy the solid gold toilet seat, so he decided to take up preaching just for more money, which is the wrong intention.
 

It's my opinion that the 12 Disciples were given a task by Jesus and they went out and did it, this again goes back to "God's individual plan for each individual person." And we have the Holy Spirit to instruct us and lead us today, if he never told us to be a pastor in anyway, then that's not our call, and when i say told us I don't mean reading the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. There are ways to be led.

You will get the strong feeling that the Holy Spirit is with you in this one, you may even hear an audible voice from the Holy Spirit like "Mary go and be a pastor", God may keep bringing a Bible verse to you and that may be your calling, or he may tell you in a dream or vision, and there are many other ways but this is how God speaks to us and tells us what he wants us to do, or where he wants us to go. This is God's individual plan for each individual person, there are cases where God has told someone where a gold nugget is, and he or she went to that location and found a gold nugget, and got wealthy of that. Now there's nothing wrong about that. It's all a part of God's plan for that person.

Proverbs 13:22 
tells us that the wealth of the wicked is stored up for the righteous

John 10:10 speaks about having life abundantly

James 1:17 tells us that every good and great gift is from above

Psalms 37:11 the meek shall inherit the land

I gotta go now, there are many more Bible verses about the promise of abundance for us
 

How can you say it wasn't God's plan for Fred to become a pastor? Paul was a tent maker and a preacher. Why can't Fred be a plumber and a preacher?

Is it your opinion that if the disciples came back wealthy Jesus would have been OK with that? (Mark 6:7-9)

 

If Fred rightfully obtained his money thru his plumbing job wouldn't Fred, according to your logic, rightfully be able to "buy a solid gold toilet seat"?

 

Maybe, according to your statement, "God's individual plan for each individual person" was Gods individual plan for Fred? Maybe it is as you stated "part of God's plan" for Fred.

 

I feel like you are saying God didn't lead the Holy Spirit to instruct Fred to be a pastor? How do you know that? Did God call for Paul to be a tent maker and a pastor?

 

Is it your opinion that if the disciples came back wealthy Jesus would have been OK with that? (Mark 6:7-9)


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#26
Josho

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How can you say it wasn't God's plan for Fred to become a pastor? Paul was a tent maker and a preacher. Why can't Fred be a plumber and a preacher?

Is it your opinion that if the disciples came back wealthy Jesus would have been OK with that? (Mark 6:7-9)

 

If Fred rightfully obtained his money thru his plumbing job wouldn't Fred, according to your logic, rightfully be able to "buy a solid gold toilet seat"?

 

Maybe, according to your statement, "God's individual plan for each individual person" was Gods individual plan for Fred? Maybe it is as you stated "part of God's plan" for Fred.

 

I feel like you are saying God didn't lead the Holy Spirit to instruct Fred to be a pastor? How do you know that? Did God call for Paul to be a tent maker and a pastor?

 

Is it your opinion that if the disciples came back wealthy Jesus would have been OK with that? (Mark 6:7-9)

Fred is just an example..... I'm saying the Holy Spirit didn't lead imaginary Fred to become a pastor. How does that not make sense? And I'm not comparing Fred with Paul the tent maker.

Some are called to pastor a church, some are not, some are called to be prophets and some are not. Jonah was called to go Ninevah, he wasn't called to be a church-sitter in his hometown, see my point yet about being led? God has a plan for each and everyone of us, and it's up to us whether we want to follow it or not, when man goes his own way, when man follows his flesh, that's when stuff goes wrong. 

Would Jesus have been ok with the disciples coming back wealthy? Is he okay with us coming back home wealthy? Well what do you believe? Does Jesus want to bless you or take from you? Does Jesus want you to live abundantly or in financial struggle?

Well what's a righteous man's reward? Psalm 112 will tell you that. And I hope it answers your question.

Psalm 112

112 [a] Praise the Lord!
Blessed is the man who fears the Lord,
    who greatly delights in his commandments!
His offspring will be mighty in the land;
    the generation of the upright will be blessed.
Wealth and riches are in his house,
    and his righteousness endures forever.
Light dawns in the darkness for the upright;
    he is gracious, merciful, and righteous.
It is well with the man who deals generously and lends;
    who conducts his affairs with justice.
For the righteous will never be moved;
    he will be remembered forever.
He is not afraid of bad news;
    his heart is firm, trusting in the Lord.
His heart is steady;[b] he will not be afraid,
    until he looks in triumph on his adversaries.
He has distributed freely; he has given to the poor;
    his righteousness endures forever;
    his horn is exalted in honor.
10 The wicked man sees it and is angry;
    he gnashes his teeth and melts away;
    the desire of the wicked will perish!

 


Edited by Josho, 30 March 2017 - 10:39 PM.

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#27
FHII

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I said I'd get back in a week to address some questions. I just didn't say which week that would be. Turns out it was the week one month after.

In all serious... I had to take a month off. I have my reasons and I ask forgiveness for not upholding my original promise.

There are certain things I will need to comment on later. Those issues are just too unwieldy to do on a cell phone. But I would like to address a few issues.


In Mat 23:23 Jesus said [paraphrasing ] that the Pharisees paid tithes but omitted more important matters. He said they ought to pay tithes, but shouldn't have neglected mercy, law , judgment and faith.

I wholeheartedly agree that these verses aren't directly talking about tithing. My only point was that Jesus said it ought to be done. I believe that the actual amount has changed as shown by Paul, but the concept of giving still is important.

In fact, the new amount Paul talked about is what I want to get to next.

I'll do my best to get to the point, but it will not be easy. We previously spoke of 1 cor 9 how Paul said though he could've demanded compensation for his preaching, he didn't. I've commented on that before, but for now... Just keep that chapter in mind.

I want to go to 2 Cor 9. Verse 7 says:

[7] Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

This is what I believe to be the new amount I spoke of. What should be a pastor's salary? This is it. We aren't required to tithe anymore, we are required to give according to what is in our heart. In Galatians it say let him that is taught communicate good things to him that teaches.

It was suggested that 2 Cor 9 was talking about giving to the poor, not the Pastor. Not 100% true... At least not in the way thought.

Paul did do relief based missionaries and was big on aiding the poor financially. This may have been a part of it but it was not was he was talking about.

The context of the thought Paul was portraying begins in chapter 8 of 2 Cor. Paul notes the poverty of the Macedonians yet they were still givers. Chapter 9 is where he tells the Corinthians they too should be givers. He talks about ministering to the saints. But hold off any thoughts thay this was a famine relief effort of any sorts (financial or food famine).

Chapter 10 is where Paul announces he looked to bring the gospel to regions beyond Corinth (he spoke of Rome and Spain as desired destinations in the book of Romans).

So ministering to the saints wasn't about giving food or money to the poor... It was about bringing them the gospel. Yes, I believe Paul would've and did feed physical food to te poor and put coin in their hand, but it wasn't the main point.

Now, moving on to chapter 11, we learn that Paul robbed other Churches for the sake of the Corinthians. We also learn that it was the impoverished Macedonians that funded Paul while he was in Corinth. Specifically, the Thesselonians (in future commentary, this will be an important point).

Now lets go back to 1 Cor 9 when Paul said he preached the gospel free to the Corinthians... That's right! He was able to do that not because his tent making business was booming, but because the Thesselonians sent him funds.

2 Cor 8 - 11 is where Paul was instructing them to return the favor.

The point is that Paul lived off the offerings of the Church. He didn't give it all to the poor. He used that money to travel, to eat, to lodge, maybe even lead a sister by the hand (hate to say it, but that may mean to go out on a date).

Relating it to today... The pastor (as Paul did) has the power to use the money as he sees fit. Paul (that I know of) didn't own a house or property. That doesn't mean others can't. Hopefully, real men of God are wise stewards of what they receive.

Me personally... I am more interested in whether they are preaching truth and living by what they teach.

Later i will talk about the verses in Mat 6 and laying up treasures in heaven.

Edited by FHII, 16 April 2017 - 06:56 PM.

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#28
Marymog

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Fred is just an example..... I'm saying the Holy Spirit didn't lead imaginary Fred to become a pastor. How does that not make sense? And I'm not comparing Fred with Paul the tent maker.

Some are called to pastor a church, some are not, some are called to be prophets and some are not. Jonah was called to go Ninevah, he wasn't called to be a church-sitter in his hometown, see my point yet about being led? God has a plan for each and everyone of us, and it's up to us whether we want to follow it or not, when man goes his own way, when man follows his flesh, that's when stuff goes wrong. 

Would Jesus have been ok with the disciples coming back wealthy? Is he okay with us coming back home wealthy? Well what do you believe? Does Jesus want to bless you or take from you? Does Jesus want you to live abundantly or in financial struggle?

Well what's a righteous man's reward? Psalm 112 will tell you that. And I hope it answers your question.

Psalm 112

112 [a] Praise the Lord!
Blessed is the man who fears the Lord,
    who greatly delights in his commandments!
His offspring will be mighty in the land;
    the generation of the upright will be blessed.
Wealth and riches are in his house,
    and his righteousness endures forever.
Light dawns in the darkness for the upright;
    he is gracious, merciful, and righteous.
It is well with the man who deals generously and lends;
    who conducts his affairs with justice.
For the righteous will never be moved;
    he will be remembered forever.
He is not afraid of bad news;
    his heart is firm, trusting in the Lord.
His heart is steady;[b] he will not be afraid,
    until he looks in triumph on his adversaries.
He has distributed freely; he has given to the poor;
    his righteousness endures forever;
    his horn is exalted in honor.
10 The wicked man sees it and is angry;
    he gnashes his teeth and melts away;
    the desire of the wicked will perish!


 

"sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven…” (Matthew 19:21

 

 

"none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions (Luke 14:23).

 

 

Truly, I say to you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the treasury.  For they all contributed out of their abundance; but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, her whole living.”  Mark 12: 42-44

 

How difficult it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!” (Mark 10:23)

 

No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money. Matthew 6:24

 

To answer your question: Does Jesus want to bless you or take from you?

 

Jesus isn't taking anything from you if you refuse wealth/money. However, he will bless you:

 

Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven


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