[fivesense]

RichardBurger, on 20 August 2010 - 06:43 PM, said:

I disagree that death and the grave are abolished by the Lord's reconciling activaties. Your idea that they are abolished is just your idea. Nothing in scriptures tell us they are abolished. The scriptures plainly say they are cast into the lake of fire. That certainly does not say they are abolished. They will exist forever in the Lake of Fire.

This is not my "idea", it is the word of God, unless, of course, God does not mean what He says:

Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

I suppose that God could reintroduce death and Hades once again into His plan of salvation, but it is not recorded, nor does it lend itself well to the redemptive work of the Christ of God.

1C 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

The sense of destroy in the Greek is to nullify and neutralize.

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel

There is no time element for the lake of fire, other than the eons of the eons. The eons come to an end at the consummation of all things, wherein God accepts the subjection of His Son to Himself, and becomes All in all.

1C 15:27-28 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

[RichardBurger]

In reply to fivesense

Revelation 19:20
20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
NKJV

Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
NKJV

Revelation 20:11-15
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
NKJV

From the above I see that the Devil, the beast, the false prophet, Death, Hades and anyone not found in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire. --- This does not say that they are all abolished into nothingness. What I see is that all in the lake of fire are tormented day and night forever and ever.

1C 15:24-26
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

*** During the 1000 year rule of Christ (verse 25) there will be people who are still in the flesh living on the earth and Christ will rule over them. These people can still die (their first death). It should be noticed that those who died ""without"" Christ have not been resurrected because it is not yet their time. At the end of Christ's rule on earth all the remaining dead will be resurrected and death of the flesh will be destroyed. But not the "Second Death." Flesh bodies will no longer exist. Only resurrected bodies that do not die will exist. In the statement "The last enemy that will be destroyed is death" THERE IS NO MENTION OF "THE SECOND DEATH." At this time there will be the "Great White Throne Judgment." All names that are NOT found written in the "Book of Life" will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, which is "THE SECOND DEATH." (see John 5:27-29 and Revelations 20:12-15 below). If death and the second death are the same death then why call it by another name?

2 Timothy 1:9-10
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
NKJV

You seem to indicate that that Jesus Christ has already abolished death in verse 10 above. But it is a fact that men and women still die in the flesh and it would make 1C 15:24-26 wrong.
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

How to resolve this? It is very simple. 2 Timothy 1:10 does not mean it is already happened, it means it has been brought to light (revealed) through the gospel as events that will happen.

[fivesense]

RichardBurger, on 20 August 2010 - 08:59 PM, said:

Revelation 19:20
Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Revelation 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:11-15
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
From the above I see that the Devil, the beast, the false prophet, Death, Hades and anyone not found in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire. --- This does not say that they are all abolished into nothingness. What I see is that all in the lake of fire are tormented day and night forever and ever.
1C 15:24-26
During the 1000 year rule of Christ (verse 25) there will be people who are still in the flesh living on the earth and Christ will rule over them. These people can still die (their first death). It should be noticed that those who died ""without"" Christ have not been resurrected because it is not yet their time. At the end of Christ's rule on earth all the remaining dead will be resurrected and death of the flesh will be destroyed.

If death and the second death are the same death then why call it by another name?

2 2 Timothy 1:10 does not mean it is already happened, it means it has been brought to light (revealed) through the gospel as events that will happen.

On Revelations 19:20 a closer look shows that only two are cast alive into the lake of fire and sulfer. These usurpers are supernatural beings, empowered by life that imitates God, deceives the masses, and mocks His sovereignty. That they are the worst of offenders to have lived is easily assumed. The torment alive for the eons of the eons (not the false forever and ever of mistranslation) is certainly appropriate.

A closer look at 20:10 shows no mention of anyone else but the false prophet, the wild beast and the Slanderer.

Re 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

When does this torment take place? In the lake of fire? That can be assumed, but the previous verse, verse 11, places it during the period of indignation and Babylon. It is worthy of note that "smoke" is used, and is an expression of reminder, as in Sodom and Gemorrah's smoke, a memorial for the eons. As that place no longer exists, yet is testified to by smoke, so also the torment ceases and the smoke remains of those who were worshippers of the beast.

Re 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb

The Scroll of life pertains to Israel only. The Jews that endure to the end of the Tribulation period shall find their names remaining there. Included are the faithful out of all Israel throughout their history, recorded by the Lamb of God. (Ex 32:32, Rev 3:5, Dan 12:1), and who were already enjoying age-lasting life before this time.

The resurrected at the White Throne are physical beings, alive with life, but not the eonian life that Christ imparts to believers. It is being made alive as was Lazarus and all whom the Lord raised during His earthly commission. They all eventually died again, and did not see immortality. So it shall be for those raised at the Great White Throne. Death is not abolished at the resurrection to Judgment. That is merely being roused from the state of death. It is not the same as being made alive in Christ, and the Scriptures use different terms for those types of "life". A study will show this to be so. The two deaths are not the same, and the second death is distinct and needed for just judgment.

Do not forget the enemies that must be reconciled include the powers and principalities in the celestial realm. The heavens are like the earth in this regard. He must subject the heavenly beings unto Himself as well in the coming ages, along with the Body of Christ doing His bidding as spiritual beings. It is our expectation.

I do not subscribe to the annihilation theory. Neither does the Holy Writings support "eternal damnation". I believe that God is the Savior of all men, specially of them that believe.

Christ abolished death, in His own sphere and for all who will be believing on His name. You are correct that it is forthcoming, and we are in agreement in our understanding of this passage in 2 Timothy.
fivesense

[RichardBurger]

fivesense, on 21 August 2010 - 10:59 AM, said:

On Revelations 19:20 a closer look shows that only two are cast alive into the lake of fire and sulfer. These usurpers are supernatural beings, empowered by life that imitates God, deceives the masses, and mocks His sovereignty. That they are the worst of offenders to have lived is easily assumed. The torment alive for the eons of the eons (not the false forever and ever of mistranslation) is certainly appropriate.

A closer look at 20:10 shows no mention of anyone else but the false prophet, the wild beast and the Slanderer.

Re 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

When does this torment take place? In the lake of fire? That can be assumed, but the previous verse, verse 11, places it during the period of indignation and Babylon. It is worthy of note that "smoke" is used, and is an expression of reminder, as in Sodom and Gemorrah's smoke, a memorial for the eons. As that place no longer exists, yet is testified to by smoke, so also the torment ceases and the smoke remains of those who were worshippers of the beast.

Re 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb

The Scroll of life pertains to Israel only. The Jews that endure to the end of the Tribulation period shall find their names remaining there. Included are the faithful out of all Israel throughout their history, recorded by the Lamb of God. (Ex 32:32, Rev 3:5, Dan 12:1), and who were already enjoying age-lasting life before this time.

The resurrected at the White Throne are physical beings, alive with life, but not the eonian life that Christ imparts to believers. It is being made alive as was Lazarus and all whom the Lord raised during His earthly commission. They all eventually died again, and did not see immortality. So it shall be for those raised at the Great White Throne. Death is not abolished at the resurrection to Judgment. That is merely being roused from the state of death. It is not the same as being made alive in Christ, and the Scriptures use different terms for those types of "life". A study will show this to be so. The two deaths are not the same, and the second death is distinct and needed for just judgment.

Do not forget the enemies that must be reconciled include the powers and principalities in the celestial realm. The heavens are like the earth in this regard. He must subject the heavenly beings unto Himself as well in the coming ages, along with the Body of Christ doing His bidding as spiritual beings. It is our expectation.

I do not subscribe to the annihilation theory. Neither does the Holy Writings support "eternal damnation". I believe that God is the Savior of all men, specially of them that believe.

Christ abolished death, in His own sphere and for all who will be believing on His name. You are correct that it is forthcoming, and we are in agreement in our understanding of this passage in 2 Timothy.
fivesense

You said, "The resurrected at the White Throne are physical beings, alive with life, but not the eonian life that Christ imparts to believers. It is being made alive as was Lazarus and all whom the Lord raised during His earthly commission. They all eventually died again, and did not see immortality. So it shall be for those raised at the Great White Throne. Death is not abolished at the resurrection to Judgment. That is merely being roused from the state of death. It is not the same as being made alive in Christ, and the Scriptures use different terms for those types of "life". A study will show this to be so. The two deaths are not the same, and the second death is distinct and needed for just judgment."

Where did you find this idea of yours in the scriptures?

[jiggyfly]

RichardBurger, on 23 August 2010 - 07:05 AM, said:

The two deaths are not the same, and the second death is distinct and needed for just judgment."

So what is your interpretation of "just judgment"?

[RichardBurger]

jiggyfly, on 25 August 2010 - 04:27 AM, said:

So what is your interpretation of "just judgment"?

Sorry jiggyfly but I did not say this. I quoted what fivesense said. You need to ask him what he meant by saying it.

[jiggyfly]

jiggyfly, on 25 August 2010 - 04:27 AM, said:

So what is your interpretation of "just judgment"?

OK, so you don't have an opinion of what "just judgement" is?

[RichardBurger]

jiggyfly, on 25 August 2010 - 03:25 PM, said:

OK, so you don't have an opinion of what "just judgement" is?

If you can see it, asked fivesense to explain what he meant when HE said it.

You (fivesense) said, "The resurrected at the White Throne are physical beings, alive with life, but not the eonian life that Christ imparts to believers. It is being made alive as was Lazarus and all whom the Lord raised during His earthly commission. They all eventually died again, and did not see immortality. So it shall be for those raised at the Great White Throne. Death is not abolished at the resurrection to Judgment. That is merely being roused from the state of death. It is not the same as being made alive in Christ, and the Scriptures use different terms for those types of "life". A study will show this to be so. The two deaths are not the same, and the second death is distinct and needed for just judgment."

I said to fivesense "Where did you find this idea of yours in the scriptures?"

Your asking me to explain it is foolishness. It was his (fivesense) idea so go ask him. Or is it that both you, and fivesense, can't show where it came from.

[jiggyfly]

RichardBurger, on 26 August 2010 - 06:49 AM, said:

If you can see it, asked fivesense to explain what he meant when HE said it.

You (fivesense) said, "The resurrected at the White Throne are physical beings, alive with life, but not the eonian life that Christ imparts to believers. It is being made alive as was Lazarus and all whom the Lord raised during His earthly commission. They all eventually died again, and did not see immortality. So it shall be for those raised at the Great White Throne. Death is not abolished at the resurrection to Judgment. That is merely being roused from the state of death. It is not the same as being made alive in Christ, and the Scriptures use different terms for those types of "life". A study will show this to be so. The two deaths are not the same, and the second death is distinct and needed for just judgment."

I said to fivesense "Where did you find this idea of yours in the scriptures?"

Your asking me to explain it is foolishness. It was his (fivesense) idea so go ask him. Or is it that both you, and fivesense, can't show where it came from.

No I did not ask you to explain it, I asked for your opinion of what you think "just judgement" is? But evidently you don't have any thought concerning it so just disregard.

[fivesense]

RichardBurger, on 23 August 2010 - 07:05 AM, said:

You said, "The resurrected at the White Throne are physical beings, alive with life, but not the eonian life that Christ imparts to believers. It is being made alive as was Lazarus and all whom the Lord raised during His earthly commission. They all eventually died again, and did not see immortality. So it shall be for those raised at the Great White Throne. Death is not abolished at the resurrection to Judgment. That is merely being roused from the state of death. It is not the same as being made alive in Christ, and the Scriptures use different terms for those types of "life". A study will show this to be so. The two deaths are not the same, and the second death is distinct and needed for just judgment."

Where did you find this idea of yours in the scriptures?

Time for a concordant word study, Richard. The Scriptures can do a whole lot better than I in clarifying my "idea".
Strong's G2227, G1453.
Study these two words carefully, and you will reap great benefit. Resurrection does not include immortality, it only rejoins that which was separated at death, the body , the spirit, and the soul. Only Christ Jesus can impart age-lasting life. All others resurrected without this impartation are merely alive in flesh, not deathless. If all were resurrected and obtained eonian life, then the Lake of Fire would be useless and impotent. It will not be, and those resurrected to condemnation at the White Throne Judgment will die again after being resurrected to mortalily out of the death state. You do believe in the resurrection of the dead, do you not?

As to just judgment, which I did not think you were addressing, it is a perception I have of God, that He is just and equitable in all His dealings with humanity. If the second round of the death state is required for unbelievers, then it must be the "just judgment" of God. I do not see any conflict with this as being unscriptural or manufactured outside of the Writings.
fivesense