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Genesis Time Gap

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#1
veteran

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With this example I will show just HOW the Gap of time in Genesis 1 is revealed. Even the KJV Bible reveals it, but one must stay with what is written. This is not a Salvation issue. But whether or not one understands it in Genesis 1 will affect whether or not later Bible examples of it is understood. There are some places which require going back in the Hebrew, and I will show that in relation to how those same Hebrew passages were translated in other Scripture by the KJV translators.


Gen 1:1-19
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

There's only two ways to interpret this first verse. Either it is a summary declaration of God's original creation, and the details follow after this verse (which is how most are taught to look at it); or... it is about an unknown time when God literally created a perfect creation at the beginning.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

There is a difference with how the KJV translators brought the Hebrew word 'tohuw' ("without form") into English. In other KJV Scripture, they chose the ideas of confusion, empty place, nothing, vain, thing of nought, vanity, waste, wilderness. Likewise with the Hebrew 'bohu' as "void". Very important to note that in ALL other uses of those Hebrew words 'tohu' and 'bohu' in the KJV Bible, it's always about something that existed which went into a state of nothingness, or waste, or vain, or thing of nought, or confusion, etc. In other words, something existing in a good state... went into a bad state. In this case, it's about the state upon the earth. But before its creation, or after its creation from verse 1? Keep going to find out.

What's this "darkness was upon the face of the deep", and "the face of the waters"?

Gen.6 through 8 speak of this idea of the 'deep' and 'waters' with the time of the flood in Noah's days. But this is only Gen.1:2 here, and there's already "waters" and a "face of the deep"? Yes.

How does that reveal we are to understand that "without form, and void" phrase? It's certainly not pointing to the idea of 'nothing' existing in that Gen.1:2 verse, is it? No, it is not about some idea of a space vacuum at all. Already, there's "waters" existing here at Gen.1:2. And those same "waters" continue to be the subject of the next verses, revealing just 'where' they were.

In Jeremiah 4:23, the earth existing "without form, and void" phrase appears again, and it's the same Hebrew words 'tohuw' and 'bohuw'. And the Jer.4 example is about a pre-existing earth going bad, into a ruined waste state as a result of God's fierce anger (Jer.4:26). In Isaiah 45:18 God specifically said He did NOT create the earth 'tohuw' (translated as "vain", but the same Hebrew word for "without form").

What could have happenned per that Jer.4 example of the earth being "without form, and void" that brought God's "fierce anger" to cause a destruction, making the earth there "without form, and void"? That's the important message we are to understand; something happenned to cause God's fierce anger in that time.

Between these Gen.1:1 and Gen.1:2 verses we're given a hint that God created the heavens and the earth perfect at verse 1. But by the time of Gen.1:2, something had happenned with His creation of Gen.1:1 to cause the earth to become "without form, and void" (tohuw va bohuw). Even the KJV Bible translation in English will show those "waters" are overspread the whole earth, with the earth existing underneath, just like the flood of Noah's days. But this is Gen.1:2, not Noah's days at all!

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Keep those "waters" mentioned in Gen.1:2 in mind. Here God is separating Light from darkness. It has a very deep meaning, since on His 4th day is when He places the sun and moon as lights in the heavens. But this is only His 1st day.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

Here's those same "waters" mentioned back at Gen.1:2. The idea of a firmament is about the sky, cloud atmosphere above the earth. How is the sky formed here? God separates those "waters" of Gen.1:2 into two separate waters. Now watch what He does with one part of those waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

God uses a portion of those 'waters', and forms the sky atmosphere around the earth. But wait a minute. Where's His creation of the earth, for nothing has been said about literal creation of the earth soil yet, except back at Genesis 1:1. So are these waters being divided in outer space, floating in space ether of nothingness? No. So where did He leave the other... portion of waters when He formed the sky with another portion of those same waters?

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
(KJV)

Now He acts upon the portion of waters that were left. And where are those waters still? He moves those waters around upon something, and then suddenly "dry land" appears underneath those waters!! There's the earth, hidden underneath those waters all along. But when did God actually create that dry land? Back at Genesis 1:1 when He said He created the heaven and the earth. This is not about God creating the earth while moving those waters around that were already upon the earth.

THIS is about the idea of a FLOOD over the whole earth. God removes part of those flood waters up above the earth to form a sky around it, leaving the rest of the waters still upon the whole earth, then He moves those waters around until the earth underneath appears, again.

THIS is what Apostle Peter was talking about in 2 Pet.3 concerning Paul's Epistles, with some things in Paul's Epistles that are hard to understand, Scripture that many 'wrest' with. In Romans 8 Apostle Paul is covering this very subject when he showed how God had put His "creation" (ktisis) of this present world into a state of bondage, into vanity, meaning imperfectness. Paul also stated that the "whole creation" groans and travails in pain together with us, seeking release from it's state of bondage it has been in. He is hinting at the future state of glory when God will make His creation anew with a new heavens and a new earth, bringing back the original perfect state of His creation before Satan's rebellion.

How is it that fellow-believers on Christ can accept a future perfect condition of the new heavens and a new earth in God's future Eternity, but not grasp that's how God's original formation of His creation was, prior to Satan's rebellion, a time when even Satan was perfect in his ways with following God? (Ezek.28)

THIS is why the woolly mammoth was found buried frozen in ice in the Arctic areas, still with vegetation in its mouth, undigested in its stomach, showing it died of a flood; flood waters that then turned to ice. It was caught grazing in a fertile green field, at the Arctic north!! This is also why fossils of tropic vegetation and tropic animal life have been found at the earth's poles. There have been TWO world wide floods upon this earth, not one. The first flood was at Genesis 1:2 brought on most likely by Satan's original rebellion against God. There is NO WAY to determine how much time passed between the Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 verses. And that's where the idea of a 'gap' of time comes from.

THIS is the idea of what Peter was talking about in 2 Peter 3, where he said some remain "willingly ignorant" of it. Many are simply not willing to accept the idea that God has brought literal destructions upon this earth in times past. Nor do many want to admit He is going to do it once more in our future, the last time by His consuming fire, for God is a consuming fire, as written. If you don't understand this, you will be missing a greater gift of understanding how God's future Eternity of the a new heavens and a new earth is going to manifest, a perfect creation with no time, no death, no sickness, no wickedness, and no more seas upon the earth. You will miss how God's Paradise is going to 'return' to this earth where His Eden was once before, prior to Satan's rebellion against Him. This is why we are shown God's River of the waters of Life and His tree of Life existing in both Genesis 2, and in Revelation 22.




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#2
aspen

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'This is not a Salvation issue.'

My favorite part of this post!

Gen 1:1-19

There's only two ways to interpret this first verse. Either it is a summary declaration of God's original creation, and the details follow after this verse (which is how most are taught to look at it); or... it is about an unknown time when God literally created a perfect creation at the beginning.


Or it is a mystical vision of Creation, God gave Moses
Or it is a Sumerian story
Or it is a declaration of God's omnipotence, without trying to tell us the details of what happened.
Or it is a culturally inspired legend.

I am not making any claims - all I am saying is that there are more than 2 ways to interpret these passages.

I read through your interpretation of the remaining verses and I must say, they are certainly creative and somewhat consistent, but highly speculative.

THIS is why the woolly mammoth was found buried frozen in ice in the Arctic areas, still with vegetation in its mouth, undigested in its stomach, showing it died of a flood; flood waters that then turned to ice. It was caught grazing in a fertile green field, at the Arctic north!! This is also why fossils of tropic vegetation and tropic animal life have been found at the earth's poles. There have been TWO world wide floods upon this earth, not one. The first flood was at Genesis 1:2 brought on most likely by Satan's original rebellion against God. There is NO WAY to determine how much time passed between the Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 verses. And that's where the idea of a 'gap' of time comes from.


Creative and interesting.

THIS is the idea of what Peter was talking about in 2 Peter 3, where he said some remain "willingly ignorant" of it. Many are simply not willing to accept the idea that God has brought literal destruction upon this earth in times past.

Totally speculative.

Nor do many want to admit He is going to do it once more in our future, the last time by His consuming fire, for God is a consuming fire, as written. If you don't understand this, you will be missing a greater gift of understanding how God's future Eternity of the a new heavens and a new earth is going to manifest, a perfect creation with no time, no death, no sickness, no wickedness, and no more seas upon the earth. You will miss how God's Paradise is going to 'return' to this earth where His Eden was once before, prior to Satan's rebellion against Him. This is why we are shown God's River of the waters of Life and His tree of Life existing in both Genesis 2, and in Revelation 22.

I think these ideas are great for private edification, but far too speculative to be used as commentary. I also think there is an inherent danger in using our Western post Enlightened mindset to interpret literature that has been traditionally seen as inspired legend (truth, but without scientific basis or consideration).

Peace
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St. John says, "The light shineth in the darkness, and the darkness apprehended it not;" that is, the self-hood in its own will and working, cannot apprehend it; but in resignation the liberty of God shines in it. - Jakob Boehme

#3
Martin W.

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Veteran.

It is obvious that you hate the young earth theory and also the rapture theory. You make that abundantly clear and you also tend to indicate your disapproval of anyone who does not follow your religion.

Beyond those two things , I ask you .... what is your purpose and what are you trying to accomplish ??

I have found it difficult to pinpoint your motive. Please explain. Thank you.

The enemy is all around but I am careful not to label them in case I have mis-understood you. . Please clarify your position.

Thanks.

A.M.M. Woodside

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#4
Watchman_2

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For those of you that take issue with Veteran's excellent OP and the Truth put forth therein, consider this:

1) If you think that the 6 days of creation were God's oringinal creation, then you would be concluding that God created the planet earth 'without form and void' [Gen. 1:2]. This runs afoul of Isa. 45:18 -


Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

The word 'vain' is the Hebrew to'-hoo, which is the same word [Strong's H8414] as the rendering 'without form' in Gen. 1:2. Yet, in Isa. 45:18, we see the negation word 'not' associated with 'vain'. Hence, either Gen. 1:2 speaks of a different time thereafter the original creation or God is a liar. I believe that a wise person would select the former.

2) There is a problem with the concept of 'day' in Gen. 1. If you think that the length of God's creation 'day' is either 24 hours or a 1000 years [2 Pet. 3], you are stuck with a 'young earth', which is the basis for 'evolution' theory. Young earthers cannot explain scientific discovery of fossil remains dating back beyond 14,000 years ago.

If you think a 'day' is many hundreds of millions years long, you run into a problem with the 7th day of rest. Since mankind was created on the 6th day, then, due to the 7th day of rest, mankind would have to be in exisitence for many hundreds of millions of years as well. Adam dates back only a bit over 6,000 years. If you think Adam was the 6th day creation, you have a logic breakdown with the length of the 7th day. If you think Adam was formed after the 7th day of rest, there is a problem with a lack of fossil remains of humans dating back hundreds of millions of years.

3) Without the gap in time between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2, one is ill-positioned to battle the ungodly evolutionists and secular science.
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#5
veteran

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'This is not a Salvation issue.'

My favorite part of this post!

Gen 1:1-19

There's only two ways to interpret this first verse. Either it is a summary declaration of God's original creation, and the details follow after this verse (which is how most are taught to look at it); or... it is about an unknown time when God literally created a perfect creation at the beginning.


Or it is a mystical vision of Creation, God gave Moses
Or it is a Sumerian story
Or it is a declaration of God's omnipotence, without trying to tell us the details of what happened.
Or it is a culturally inspired legend.

I am not making any claims - all I am saying is that there are more than 2 ways to interpret these passages.

I read through your interpretation of the remaining verses and I must say, they are certainly creative and somewhat consistent, but highly speculative.

THIS is why the woolly mammoth was found buried frozen in ice in the Arctic areas, still with vegetation in its mouth, undigested in its stomach, showing it died of a flood; flood waters that then turned to ice. It was caught grazing in a fertile green field, at the Arctic north!! This is also why fossils of tropic vegetation and tropic animal life have been found at the earth's poles. There have been TWO world wide floods upon this earth, not one. The first flood was at Genesis 1:2 brought on most likely by Satan's original rebellion against God. There is NO WAY to determine how much time passed between the Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 verses. And that's where the idea of a 'gap' of time comes from.


Creative and interesting.

THIS is the idea of what Peter was talking about in 2 Peter 3, where he said some remain "willingly ignorant" of it. Many are simply not willing to accept the idea that God has brought literal destruction upon this earth in times past.

Totally speculative.

Nor do many want to admit He is going to do it once more in our future, the last time by His consuming fire, for God is a consuming fire, as written. If you don't understand this, you will be missing a greater gift of understanding how God's future Eternity of the a new heavens and a new earth is going to manifest, a perfect creation with no time, no death, no sickness, no wickedness, and no more seas upon the earth. You will miss how God's Paradise is going to 'return' to this earth where His Eden was once before, prior to Satan's rebellion against Him. This is why we are shown God's River of the waters of Life and His tree of Life existing in both Genesis 2, and in Revelation 22.

I think these ideas are great for private edification, but far too speculative to be used as commentary. I also think there is an inherent danger in using our Western post Enlightened mindset to interpret literature that has been traditionally seen as inspired legend (truth, but without scientific basis or consideration).

Peace



Well, it's your perspective that I see as highly speculative. If God's Word was comparable to man's secular literature, man would be able to create prophetic writings like The Bible as easy as writing a novel.
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#6
veteran

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Veteran.

It is obvious that you hate the young earth theory and also the rapture theory. You make that abundantly clear and you also tend to indicate your disapproval of anyone who does not follow your religion.

Beyond those two things , I ask you .... what is your purpose and what are you trying to accomplish ??

I have found it difficult to pinpoint your motive. Please explain. Thank you.

The enemy is all around but I am careful not to label them in case I have mis-understood you. . Please clarify your position.

Thanks.

A.M.M. Woodside



I don't "hate" the 'young earth theory'; I simply don't see any Biblical proof of it. Likewise with the pre-trib rapture theory. God's Word will happen as written, and not according to pop traditions of men.

In my coverage of Genesis 1 above, I stayed very close to both the KJV translator's translation, and the Hebrew they brought it into English from.

As far as my disapproval of anyone not of 'my' religion, that's a straw man argument, for a believer on Christ need only follow His Word to know what I follow. Problem many have is that they don't really follow Holy Writ as much as they do men's seminary traditions.

I find it quite amazing that no one here, except watchman, has addressed the points of Scripture I covered in my original post, but instead have gone on a tirade against me to try and attack my credibility.
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#7
veteran

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I would add that true science is not against God's Word on this matter. Instead, 'true science' will always align with God's Word. Notice I said true science, not pseudo science. I think most Bible believers would agree there's a pseudo-science political agenda that tries to separate God's Word as far as possible from any concept of science. If God's Word is Truth, then It will always agree with true science, which true science's aim is the discovery of facts in order to know what is true.

Consider more about the woolly mammoth found frozen in the arctic ice, still with vegetation (butter cups if I recall) in its mouth, and undigested in its stomach.

If it was covered by flood waters first, then how long did it take those waters covering it to freeze, in order to preserve it as it was found? If that had been the case, it would not have been discovered in the preserved state it was found. The evidence suggests it experienced an instant freeze while caught grazing in a green field.

Another point, is what of the fossils of tropic animal and plant life also found at the earth's poles? That suggests the arctic areas of the earth were once lush and green. Science suggests the earth's plates shifted, moving land masses north and south. But that still does not explain the woolly mammoth phenomenon which shows the arctic north was lush and green when it died, estimated only around 10,000 to 18,000 years ago. Simply, even many of science's theories about geological history doesn't agree with itself, which suggest evidence of other agendas.

Something else I recall from studying about geological periods. The earth's fossil record reveals there was a certain period of animal and plant life on earth that ended (possibly time of dinosaurs), and then a break in time within the fossil record, and then a later sudden appearance of new plant and animal life. There's a time 'gap' also in the earth's fossil record. That evidence doesn't get much 'air' play by evolutionists, since it suggests evidence of creation before the gap, and then also another creation of new life again after the gap.

Does that evidence in the earth's fossil record support God's Word? Yes.

In the following, God is bringing up a matter to His people at a time when they were rebellious against Him. These verses are most often taught to be about the flood of Noah's days. Yet it has an undeniable link with the idea of the earth being "without form, void" as it was in Genesis 1:2.

Jer 4:23-28
23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

Already with this 24th verse, we know God is talking about an existing earth, with the mountains and hills trembling. A good question here is, did God cause all the hills and mountains to 'tremble' during the flood of Noah's day? Some may not be familiar with the earth's northern magnetic field being shifted rougly 90 miles off true geographic north. That's why pilots must correct their compass heading when flying long distance across the earth; "east is least, and west is best" is the old aviation saying, correct going east 6 degrees, and going west 8 degrees. Is it probable, there was a time when earth's magnetic north was aligned with true geographical north? Might that suggest evidence that God once literally shook this earth, and caused a trembling that shifted that? If so, then when did that happen?

25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

It's logical to think this idea of "no man" means flesh man during the days of Noah. But didn't Noah and his family survive? But this verse says, "there was no man". It's just as possible this may refer to some time earlier, since the word 'man' can also be applied to the angels.


26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by His fierce anger.

Again, could ancient cities have existed on earth before Satan's rebellion against God? Ezekiel 31 does suggest it. Ancient cities have been discovered buried under the seas off the coast of Crete, and off the coast of Cuba, and western Europe near the Azores. Are all those only evidence for the flood of Noah's day, or might some of them be evidence of a time earlier? Could God have gotten angry at Satan's original rebellion also, to cause an earlier destruction upon the earth before Noah's days, and before Adam's days?


27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

We know God did not make a full end of this earth with the flood in Noah's days. That fact that we are here proves that also. But really, just when did God make His creation desolate as said here? Paul suggests in Romans 8 that God put the creation in a state of bondage for our present time, and that the creation groans for a release from the imperfect state it's been in. Was that done prior to Noah's days, or during?


28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
(KJV)

This is where Apostle Paul was pulling from in Romans 8. The earth is in a state of mourning, put in bondage. We naturally think God's earth is perfect and beautiful the way it is now, but maybe we just don't realize what God's idea of a perfect creation really is?

What does this mean, that "the heavens above be black"? God gives that image along with the earth being in a state of mourning. Most of our violent weather storms are because of the joining of hot and cold fronts to get the winds swirling around. Hot air from the sun heating the earth's surface in exposed gaps in the cloud atmosphere mixes with falling colder air and causes much of our violent weather. But what if all those open gaps in the cloud atmosphere around the earth were filled in? Do you remember back at Genesis 1 when God parted the "waters", and moved some of the waters up to create the "firmament" (sky around the earth)? We know today the earth is covered with about 70 percent water.

In Revelation 21:1 in the future, we're told there will be "no more sea", meaning no more oceans. Where are all the waters of today's oceans going to go? How does that idea of a future "no more sea" link with the Genesis 1 event of God taking part of the "waters" up to form the sky ("firmament") around the earth?



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#8
aspen

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I think I must of missed the 'tirade' against you - I am also unclear about how you decided that my point of view on Genesis 1 is speculative when I never gave you on opinion on the verses. The fact is, you decided to post a perspective on Genesis that is not a mainstream Christian POV - I told you what I thought about it. I enjoyed reading it; I also thought it was highly speculative, especially hinging your whole theory on the words void and without form (there is nothing vain about it) when it simply means that the earth had a beginning.

As far as Watchman is concerned - I think you find him more credible for agreeing with you than his use of verses.

I apologize if my opinion of your post upset you, I thought you were inviting people's opinion.

Peace.
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St. John says, "The light shineth in the darkness, and the darkness apprehended it not;" that is, the self-hood in its own will and working, cannot apprehend it; but in resignation the liberty of God shines in it. - Jakob Boehme

#9
Watchman_2

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One can easily correlate the end of the first age with science. The Pleistocene ended approximately 14,000 years ago. Compare that with the Bible timeline. Adam was formed a bit over 6,000 years ago. Between the formation of Adam and the beginning of the 6 days of creation and the day of rest, there were a minimum of 7 God days.

The length of one of God's days is 1,000 of mankind's years [2 Pet. 3]. Hence, there was a minimum of 7,000 years from the commencement of the 1st day of creation [reformation] in Gen. 1:2. to the formation of Adam. This speaks to a minimum of 13,000 years from today back to the commencement of Day 1.

The Bible timeline squares itself with the timeline of science.
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#10
veteran

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I think I must of missed the 'tirade' against you - I am also unclear about how you decided that my point of view on Genesis 1 is speculative when I never gave you on opinion on the verses. The fact is, you decided to post a perspective on Genesis that is not a mainstream Christian POV - I told you what I thought about it. I enjoyed reading it; I also thought it was highly speculative, especially hinging your whole theory on the words void and without form (there is nothing vain about it) when it simply means that the earth had a beginning.

As far as Watchman is concerned - I think you find him more credible for agreeing with you than his use of verses.

I apologize if my opinion of your post upset you, I thought you were inviting people's opinion.

Peace.



No offense, but you 'were'... giving an opinion of what I covered from Genesis. And some of your opinion in response was itself speculative.

You said:
"Or it is a mystical vision of Creation, God gave Moses
Or it is a Sumerian story
Or it is a declaration of God's omnipotence, without trying to tell us the details of what happened.
Or it is a culturally inspired legend."


Are your suggestions of those other alleged possible interpretations of the Genesis account an attempt at association with how I covered it? I think so, but those associations don't relate to what I covered in Genesis. With the first, you use the word 'mystical' which can be seen as a negative association with those who practice mysticism. The second also can be understood as a negative association, since the Sumerian creation account is riddled with ancient pagan symbology and myth that actually hides the truth of God's creation. The third has the suggestion that God didn't really intend for us to be able to understand His act of creation, treating it as a mystery we are not to know. With the fourth, it can be seen as a negative association with those who don't treat God's Word as always imparting literal Truth, but as having passages that are only meant to serve as poetic literature like some philosophical treatise.


You said:
"I am not making any claims - all I am saying is that there are more than 2 ways to interpret these passages."

Your statement there IS making a claim, even when you say you aren't making any claims. There are not many ways to interpret the Genesis creation account per God's Holy Writ. There is only one way, and that is by staying in the Scripture, including by checking out the translators with how they brought it forth from the manuscripts into English. As a result, that has produced only 2 possible interpretations, one that Genesis 1:1 is a summary verse with the details following, or, that Gen.1:1 is the creation in the beginning, and then a destruction and then a renewing past the 2nd verse. That is a very cornered process, because it is against using methods of mystical interpretation, against bringing into it pagan accounts by the false priests of ancient Sumer, against the idea of thinking God did not give it for His people to understand, and against ideas that His creation account is mere poetry or a philosophical writing.

You said:
"I read through your interpretation of the remaining verses and I must say, they are certainly creative and somewhat consistent, but highly speculative."

Creative and interesting.

Totally speculative.

I think these ideas are great for private edification, but far too speculative to be used as commentary. I also think there is an inherent danger in using our Western post Enlightened mindset to interpret literature that has been traditionally seen as inspired legend (truth, but without scientific basis or consideration)."


The end result of your post? You're actually the one doing the speculating by coming up with improper associations to try and explain how I covered the Genesis creation account, instead of actually addressing the Scripture evidence I gave. Even your last statement suggests association with a "Western post Enlightened mindset to interpret literature", which is a highly speculative statement, especially in connection with any idea that the Genesis creation account is an "inspired legend... without scientific basis or consideration".

That last phrase is an attempt to disconnect God's act of creation with scientific proofs of His creation, which such a disconnect suggests the working of a priestly cast that seeks sole control over God's Truth to His people. That's the type working the Pharisees did, turning God's Truth into man's playing religion, and in the process creating their own traditions to be taught to the people instead of staying with God's Word as written. That's also the type working that caused the Protestant rebellion in Europe. It is also why many of my fellow brethren in Christ Jesus today are getting more into God's Holy Writ for theirselves, instead of relying on the many traditions of men coming out of today's theological seminaries. Quite a few, but not all of those traditions are not even written in God's Word.

Your interpretation of the words "without form, and void" is not according to Scripture evidence, nor the Hebrew from which the KJV translators derived that English phrase from. Just associating that phrase with the idea of a beginning is not enough.
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#11
conqueror

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Hi Veteran,

Your post was excellent. A lot in line with what i have understood from the scriptures.

Many times there are mysterious matters in the worlds creation to which the Chirstian believer doesnt seem to find answers... but then again there are mysterious phrases in the Scriptures to which the believer either doesnt understand or co-relate or is a mystery.
What I think is ... all that needs to be done is 'align' the two mysteries and there you find a perfect picture.

I would like to add a few thoughts... though not to declare that this is what happened... but just to see if things align.

Why did God destroy the earlier earth?

Probably the same reason why He decided to destroy by flood during Noahs time. Notice Gen 9:11 "I will establish my covenant with you and neither shall all flesh be cut off anymore by the waters of a flood, neither shall there anymore be a flood to destroy the earth."
The word 'anymore' (ode- Heb) has a general suggestion that a thing is done repeatedly, atleast more than 2 times, and then not 'anymore'. Does it suggest that God destroyed the inhabitants of the earth twice earlier by flood and he says that I am declaring to stop this pattern of detroying by flood?
As Peter in his writings says that this time the world will end by fire and fervent heat.

Secondly, why was the earth WITHOUT FORM unlike in the result of Noahs flood?

Probably as you explained... some shift happened in the geographical landscape of the earth. One great Bible Scholar and prophet of God said that the Lord revelaed to him that the earth which is now hanging in space with a slight tilt in the rotation was once upright 90 deg. and rotating likewise. Also the earth is now an oval and that it was a perfect round. This would have been a perfect balance for a standard and perfect atmosphere prevailing on the earth. (explaining why there was greenery in the poles.. which is now covered with ice and also the imbalance in the climate of our planet)

But what happened that such an extreme change took place? As though there was a great IMPACT!... to shake the earth from its normal position.

I call to remind the words of our Lord Jesus and also the passages in Revelation...

Luk 10:18 I beheld Satan as lightining fall from the earth

Was this the time satan was thrown out from heaven? and if so... according to Rev 12:4 that Satan fell down with one third of Heavens hosts of angels???
I would like to imagine the chaos!!! Major confusion, violence and destruction... keeping in mind how the evil spirits (legion) entered into the pigs and were violently driven. Also remembering that in the Old Testament that one angel had the power to kill 185,000 men of war at one stroke... angels are beings with GREAT power.

With the fury of his defeat, Satan and his hosts may have been wild destroying everything they saw... falling like lightning from the sky... could this be what shook the earth violently from its place? could this be what created the great craters that are found in a couple of places on this planet? and many more questions... ? ?? .... ???

though your previous posts are a year old... i would like to know your thoughts...

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#12
veteran

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Hi Veteran,

Your post was excellent. A lot in line with what i have understood from the scriptures.

Many times there are mysterious matters in the worlds creation to which the Chirstian believer doesnt seem to find answers... but then again there are mysterious phrases in the Scriptures to which the believer either doesnt understand or co-relate or is a mystery.
What I think is ... all that needs to be done is 'align' the two mysteries and there you find a perfect picture.

I would like to add a few thoughts... though not to declare that this is what happened... but just to see if things align.

Why did God destroy the earlier earth?

Probably the same reason why He decided to destroy by flood during Noahs time. Notice Gen 9:11 "I will establish my covenant with you and neither shall all flesh be cut off anymore by the waters of a flood, neither shall there anymore be a flood to destroy the earth."
The word 'anymore' (ode- Heb) has a general suggestion that a thing is done repeatedly, atleast more than 2 times, and then not 'anymore'. Does it suggest that God destroyed the inhabitants of the earth twice earlier by flood and he says that I am declaring to stop this pattern of detroying by flood?
As Peter in his writings says that this time the world will end by fire and fervent heat.

Secondly, why was the earth WITHOUT FORM unlike in the result of Noahs flood?

Probably as you explained... some shift happened in the geographical landscape of the earth. One great Bible Scholar and prophet of God said that the Lord revelaed to him that the earth which is now hanging in space with a slight tilt in the rotation was once upright 90 deg. and rotating likewise. Also the earth is now an oval and that it was a perfect round. This would have been a perfect balance for a standard and perfect atmosphere prevailing on the earth. (explaining why there was greenery in the poles.. which is now covered with ice and also the imbalance in the climate of our planet)

But what happened that such an extreme change took place? As though there was a great IMPACT!... to shake the earth from its normal position.

I call to remind the words of our Lord Jesus and also the passages in Revelation...

Luk 10:18 I beheld Satan as lightining fall from the earth

Was this the time satan was thrown out from heaven? and if so... according to Rev 12:4 that Satan fell down with one third of Heavens hosts of angels???
I would like to imagine the chaos!!! Major confusion, violence and destruction... keeping in mind how the evil spirits (legion) entered into the pigs and were violently driven. Also remembering that in the Old Testament that one angel had the power to kill 185,000 men of war at one stroke... angels are beings with GREAT power.

With the fury of his defeat, Satan and his hosts may have been wild destroying everything they saw... falling like lightning from the sky... could this be what shook the earth violently from its place? could this be what created the great craters that are found in a couple of places on this planet? and many more questions... ? ?? .... ???

though your previous posts are a year old... i would like to know your thoughts...


Hello conqueror,

If you'll also notice in Rev.12:3-4, another pattern is given along with that time when Satan as that red dragon drew a third of the stars (angels) in rebellion with him. The pattern of a beast kingdom system of ten horns, seven heads, and seven crowns is given along with that event.

I know this will be far beyond the understanding of many, but that Rev.12:3 beast kingdom pattern reveals more of how Satan first rebelled against God in that time of old. Since that beast kingdom pattern is given, and it is linked to the one in Rev.13:1 for the last days by TYPE, that gives a bit more info of what Satan did in his original rebellion. The parallel to that Scripture hint is in Ezekiel 31, which is given in parable form.

Both Scripture examples when understood together, along with the Ezekiel 28 pointer to Satan, suggest that God had setup Satan in great authority before he rebelled. It suggests Satan established a kingdom structure upon the earth in that time of old which usurped Christ's Authority, but it had only seven crowns. Without realizing the 'gap' of time between Gen.1:1 and 1:2, that cannot be considered.


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#13
avoice

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Very nice OP veteran
I agree that this is what scripture says its the young earth theroy I find little biblcal support for.

If one truly closley looks at 2 Peter 3 in the several tranlations this is exactly the mystery he tells us ...Noahs flood waas never a secret or a mystery so
What Peter says here was a secret being revealed to us

Wycliff Bible (older bible)

5 But it is hid from them willing this thing, that heavens were before, and the earth of water was standing by water, by God's word [that heavens were first, and the earth of water and by water being, or standing, together by God's word];

6 by which [things] that same world cleansed, then by water perished.

7 But the heavens that now be, and the earth, be kept by the same word, and be reserved to fire into the day of doom and perdition of wicked men. [Forsooth the heavens that now be, and the earth, by the same word put again, be kept to fire into the day of doom and perdition of unpious men.]

8 But, ye most dear, this one thing be not hid to you [be not unknown], that one day with God is as a thousand years, and a thousand years be as one day [and a thousand years as one day]. 9 The Lord tarrieth not his promise, as some [men] guess, but he doeth patiently for you, and will not that any man perish [not willing any to perish], but that all turn again to penance.


The flood of Noah never destroyed the heavens.. so the heavens before cant be refering to this age ...

We have only had one heaven and one earth in this current age ....

Edited by avoice, 30 June 2011 - 02:30 PM.

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#14
conqueror

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Hello conqueror,

If you'll also notice in Rev.12:3-4, another pattern is given along with that time when Satan as that red dragon drew a third of the stars (angels) in rebellion with him. The pattern of a beast kingdom system of ten horns, seven heads, and seven crowns is given along with that event.

I know this will be far beyond the understanding of many, but that Rev.12:3 beast kingdom pattern reveals more of how Satan first rebelled against God in that time of old. Since that beast kingdom pattern is given, and it is linked to the one in Rev.13:1 for the last days by TYPE, that gives a bit more info of what Satan did in his original rebellion. The parallel to that Scripture hint is in Ezekiel 31, which is given in parable form.

Both Scripture examples when understood together, along with the Ezekiel 28 pointer to Satan, suggest that God had setup Satan in great authority before he rebelled. It suggests Satan established a kingdom structure upon the earth in that time of old which usurped Christ's Authority, but it had only seven crowns. Without realizing the 'gap' of time between Gen.1:1 and 1:2, that cannot be considered.





Good point veteran... Probably after ruling these nations "How are thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which did weaken the nations!" Isa 14:12

satan may have had the greed for more power and then decided to be lifted above the Lord. may have started a rebellion and then thrown down from heaven.

I often think of this verse
Ez 31:16 "I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall (i would expect him to be cast to earth... but the verse goes on to say..) when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit.."

if the kingdoms shook when he fell to the earth!!! it would surely deform the earth's outlook. tectonic plates shifting. triggering great earthquakes and tsunamis. supporting the 'gap'
rather it says he fell down to hell.

Anyways all the other proofs give a strong implication about the gap theory.

There is one more thing I would like to add... According to 2Tim 3:15,
"... the holy scriptures , which are able to make you wise unto salvation through faith ..."

All meditation of the scripture if done deep enough, will somehow be a salvation issue... or support and strengthen our hope salvation.

After knowing this that God created a world and destroyed... again took a initiative to create... then in Noahs time ..destroyed, and again took an initiative to replenish. And now in the furture He declares an end by fire and then AGAIN... a NEW HEAVEN and a NEW EARTH...

... all this makes me to think about the wonderful nature of God... HE never gives up! though mankind messed up the whole thing, GOD looks to re-create, rebuild, replenish and restore!

That is how He works in our life ... though we may have destroyed ourselves, HE will with a genuine care for HIS creation and take the initiative to RESTORE if we BELIEVE and have FAITH!

Hosea 13:9 "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself, but in me is thine help."

God Bless

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#15
n2thelight

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The Word of God flows so smoothly when one understands this fact.......You can understand why some were chosen,for one.....You can bout figure out why God hated Esau while he was still in his mother's womb,and also why He loved Jacob,and why He interferes in some people's life,Paul for an example....

Do you see how the continents use to fit together perfectly in one land mass,I guess it took a mere 6000 years to come apart as it is now..........
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"All that we have learned from our youth up must be tested and proved by the Word of God. Where we find it is true we must learn it over again, from God. And where it will not stand the test of His Word we must be not only content, but thankful to give it up; and receive Divine revelation in the place of man's imagination."

." E. W. Bullinger, D.D.

#16
veteran

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Good point veteran... Probably after ruling these nations "How are thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which did weaken the nations!" Isa 14:12

satan may have had the greed for more power and then decided to be lifted above the Lord. may have started a rebellion and then thrown down from heaven.

I often think of this verse
Ez 31:16 "I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall (i would expect him to be cast to earth... but the verse goes on to say..) when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit.."

if the kingdoms shook when he fell to the earth!!! it would surely deform the earth's outlook. tectonic plates shifting. triggering great earthquakes and tsunamis. supporting the 'gap'
rather it says he fell down to hell.

Anyways all the other proofs give a strong implication about the gap theory.

There is one more thing I would like to add... According to 2Tim 3:15,
"... the holy scriptures , which are able to make you wise unto salvation through faith ..."

All meditation of the scripture if done deep enough, will somehow be a salvation issue... or support and strengthen our hope salvation.

After knowing this that God created a world and destroyed... again took a initiative to create... then in Noahs time ..destroyed, and again took an initiative to replenish. And now in the furture He declares an end by fire and then AGAIN... a NEW HEAVEN and a NEW EARTH...

... all this makes me to think about the wonderful nature of God... HE never gives up! though mankind messed up the whole thing, GOD looks to re-create, rebuild, replenish and restore!

That is how He works in our life ... though we may have destroyed ourselves, HE will with a genuine care for HIS creation and take the initiative to RESTORE if we BELIEVE and have FAITH!

Hosea 13:9 "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself, but in me is thine help."

God Bless




The picture I see is that nations were established upon the earth in that time, though it did not involve flesh man. God had setup Satan as one of the cherubs over it (per Ezek.31). Then Satan sought to exalt himself above God using those nations on a perfect earth to form the ten horn, seven head, seven crown world system of Rev.12:3-4, and God then brought a destruction upon the earth as a result, and then created a place of separation (hell, pit, abyss, etc.), and cast Satan and those who rebelled with him down into it.

So the shaking and destruction was from God's Hand, because of what Satan had done, as we're shown in Jeremiah 4 with all the cities being broken down at the Presence of The LORD and by His fierce anger. Then God said He would not make a full end.


What all this really makes me consider, is a great contrast between how God's creation (or re-creation) of the earth is today, compared with the future new heavens and a new earth for His Eternity. It gives a lot more 'literal' weight to the idea of His River on earth flowing from His Throne to water and cleanse this earth, and the tree of life as real actual trees that can bear fruit year round. When most are thinking about God's future Kingdom manifesting up in the clouds without an earth, I keep thinking of the idea of a perfect earth, much, much more beautiful than how His earth is today, and a perfect existence along with it.

Today, everything on this earth is subject to imperfection of death and decay. The idea of death and decay is the exact opposite of a perfect existence, an eternal existence. Because of this present world being placed in a state of bondage and it's all we know of this time, it's difficult for us to consider the possibility of a perfect creation, one without death and decay. We have been taught by man to accept the idea of death as if it has always existed, that it's a natural order established with the earth, and that its removal would start a rupture of the very fabric of space and time. We've been conditioned by life in this world age to accept the state of the creation today as if it has never been in any other state. Yet God's Word reveals a time is coming when the concept of death will be no more, with the earth He created being released from its state of vanity, and then continuing into Eternity.

For me, I'm already literally convinced of this coming change of the earth being made perfect again. I cannot claim the majority of that understanding coming by scientific evidence of the fossil record, but that does help some. Once one begins to realize this matter, it keeps popping up in various places in God's Holy Writ. Every time it does, it acts as a reminder to it.
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#17
Israelsson

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I don't "hate" the 'young earth theory'; I simply don't see any Biblical proof of it. Likewise with the pre-trib rapture theory. God's Word will happen as written, and not according to pop traditions of men.

In my coverage of Genesis 1 above, I stayed very close to both the KJV translator's translation, and the Hebrew they brought it into English from.

As far as my disapproval of anyone not of 'my' religion, that's a straw man argument, for a believer on Christ need only follow His Word to know what I follow. Problem many have is that they don't really follow Holy Writ as much as they do men's seminary traditions.

I find it quite amazing that no one here, except watchman, has addressed the points of Scripture I covered in my original post, but instead have gone on a tirade against me to try and attack my credibility.

A significant word choice used in the KJV that caused a misunderstanding from the gate is the word 'was'.

The Strongs translation is #1961 and it means "1) to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out"

So we can take the Genesis account and it should read " 2And the earth BECAME an EMPTY WASTE; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

This is significant in establishing that there WAS SOMETHING on this earth before this earth age. We know from fossil evidence that dinosaurs existed, but we also know that life appeared on the planet IN THE ORDER that God spoke it! We know from archaeological evidence, that the oldest remnants of human existence are pieces of pottery and some tools that date back more than 1 million years.

We know from scripture that ADAM was created on the 6th day. We also know using various chronologies that this happened around 6000 years ago, sure we could equate this to Sumerian myth, but these Sumerians were children of Adam, they were the early Adamites.

We know that Cain found a wife while in the land of Nod(wandering), and he built a city. These things are hard to accomplish when you are only one of three people in the world! This along with Jeremiahs account quoted earlier, alludes to scriptural basis for people being on earth before Adam.

"Day" is used to for several definitions of day, but understand, how could this be a literal 24 hour period when the Sun wasn't created until day 4? Science knows that the universe is very old, and our solar system is much, much younger than many we've found. You see, our bible tells us not of the creation of everything in the universe, but of this earth, and the things which affect it, i.e. the sun, the moon, the stars, and all life on earth.

People like to assume that mankind was a lot dumber in the past, that somehow we suddenly 'realized' civilization. But history, and our bible, tells us differently. We learn that featherless bipeds have been on this earth farther than history can even prove. The writings of cultures around the world tell us that they have been in existence well beyond 500,000 years. Many refuse to believe it though, its easier to accept 'what is written' alone without even considering science.

Science is governed by perfect laws, the law of gravity, the laws of physics, mathematics, etc. Only God creates things which are perfect, so these sciences were created by God. The book of I Enoch, though refuted by many in mainstream churchianity thanks to the Catholic empire and their choosing of 'what would be in Gods word'.


Genesis 5:18-24 [18] Jared lived one hundred and sixty-two years, and begot Enoch. [19] After he begot Enoch, Jared lived eight hundred years, and had sons and daughters. [20] So all the days of Jared were nine hundred and sixty-two years; and he died. [21] Enoch lived sixty-five years, and begot Methuselah. [22] After he begot Methuselah, Enoch walked with God three hundred years, and had sons and daughters. [23] So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. [24] And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "and was not found, because God had taken him"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Jude 1:14-15 [14] Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, [15] to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
We first learn of Enoch in Genesis 5 but it leaves us with questions. Hebrews 11 has the answers and Jude quotes Enoch! How did Jude come to know the words of Enoch? They are not in the Bible. The answer of course, is The Book of Enoch. A book which is actually quoted by Jude in the New Testament. What is the Book of Enoch and where did it come from?
Enoch was the great-grandfather of Noah. The Book of Enoch chapter 68:1 "And after that my great-grandfather Enoch gave me all the secrets in the book and in the parables which had been given to him, and he put them together for me in the words of the book of the parables."
The Book of Enoch was extant centuries before the birth of Christ and yet is considered by many to be more Christian in its theology than Jewish. It was considered scripture by many early Christians. The earliest literature of the so-called "Church Fathers" is filled with references to this mysterious book. The early second century "Epistle of Barnabus" makes much use of the Book of Enoch. Second and Third Century "Church Fathers" like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origin and Clement of Alexandria all make use of the Book of Enoch. Tertullian (160-230 C.E) even called the Book of Enoch "Holy Scripture". The Ethiopic Church even added the Book of Enoch to its official canon. It was widely known and read the first three centuries after Christ. This and many other books became discredited after the Council of Laodicea. And being under ban of the authorities, afterwards it gradually passed out of circulation.


1The word of the blessing of Enoch, how he blessed the elect and the righteous, who were to exist in the time of trouble; rejecting all the wicked and ungodly. Enoch, a righteous man, who was (1) with God, answered and spoke, while his eyes were open, and while he saw a holy vision in the heavens. This the angels showed me.
(1) N.B. The italicized words supply a gap in the text.
2From them I heard all things, and understood what I saw; that which will not take place in this generation, but in a generation which is to succeed at a distant period, on account of the elect.
3Upon their account I spoke and conversed with him, who will go forth from his habitation, the Holy and Mighty One, the God of the world:
4Who will hereafter tread upon Mount Sinai; appear with his hosts; and be manifested in the strength of his power from heaven.
5All shall be afraid, and the Watchers be terrified.
6Great fear and trembling shall seize them, even to the ends of the earth. The lofty mountains shall be troubled, and the exalted hills depressed, melting like a honeycomb in the flame. The earth shall be immerged, and all things which are in it perish; while judgment shall come upon all, even upon all the righteous:
7But to them shall he give peace: he shall preserve the elect, and towards them exercise clemency.
8Then shall all belong to God; be happy and blessed; and the splendour of the Godhead shall illuminate them.

Enoch is given visions and hears things which he understands to take place in the distant future, possibly in our near future. He learns of the great judgement to be cast upon the earth and its inhabitants. We also see here that the 'elect' will be given peace, they will be preserved. There is no mention of a rapture here, rather, the story coincides with the parable of the wheat and tares, and the parable of the net, where the evil is separated from the good to be destroyed. BEFORE THE GOOD have anything done with them.


1Behold, he comes with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all the carnal for everything which the sinful and ungodly have done, and committed against him. (2)
(2) Quoted by Jude, vss. 14, 15.

If we move to chapter 7, we can see a very close correlation with Genesis 6.

1It happened after the sons of men had multiplied in those days, that daughters were born to them, elegant and beautiful.
2And when the angels, (3) the sons of heaven, beheld them, they became enamoured of them, saying to each other, Come, let us select for ourselves wives from the progeny of men, and let us beget children.
(3) An Aramaic text reads "Watchers" here (J.T. Milik, Aramaic Fragments of Qumran Cave 4 [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1976], p. 167).
3Then their leader Samyaza said to them; I fear that you may perhaps be indisposed to the performance of this enterprise;
4And that I alone shall suffer for so grievous a crime.
5But they answered him and said; We all swear;
6And bind ourselves by mutual execrations, that we will not change our intention, but execute our projected undertaking.
7Then they swore all together, and all bound themselves by mutual execrations. Their whole number was two hundred, who descended upon Ardis, (4) which is the top of mount Armon.
(4) Upon Ardis. Or, "in the days of Jared" (R.H. Charles, ed. and trans., The Book of Enoch [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1893], p. 63).
8That mountain therefore was called Armon, because they had sworn upon it, (5) and bound themselves by mutual execrations.
(5) Mt. Armon, or Mt. Hermon, derives its name from the Hebrew word herem, a curse (Charles, p. 63).
9These are the names of their chiefs: Samyaza, who was their leader, Urakabarameel, Akibeel, Tamiel, Ramuel, Danel, Azkeel, Saraknyal, Asael, Armers, Batraal, Anane, Zavebe, Samsaveel, Ertael, Turel, Yomyael, Arazyal. These were the prefects of the two hundred angels, and the remainder were all with them. (6)
(6) The Aramaic texts preserve an earlier list of names of these Watchers: Semihazah; Artqoph; Ramtel; Kokabel; Ramel; Danieal; Zeqiel; Baraqel; Asael; Hermoni; Matarel; Ananel; Stawel; Samsiel; Sahriel; Tummiel; Turiel; Yomiel; Yhaddiel (Milik, p. 151).
10Then they took wives, each choosing for himself; whom they began to approach, and with whom they cohabited; teaching them sorcery, incantations, and the dividing of roots and trees.
11And the women conceiving brought forth giants, (7)
(7) The Greek texts vary considerably from the Ethiopic text here. One Greek manuscript adds to this section, "And they [the women] bore to them [the Watchers] three races–first, the great giants. The giants brought forth [some say "slew"] the Naphelim, and the Naphelim brought forth [or "slew"] the Elioud. And they existed, increasing in power according to their greatness." See the account in the Book of Jubilees.
12Whose stature was each three hundred cubits. These devoured all which the labor of men produced; until it became impossible to feed them;
13When they turned themselves against men, in order to devour them;
14And began to injure birds, beasts, reptiles, and fishes, to eat their flesh one after another, (8) and to drink their blood.
(8) Their flesh one after another. Or, "one another’s flesh." R.H. Charles notes that this phrase may refer to the destruction of one class of giants by another (Charles, p. 65).
15Then the earth reproved the unrighteous.

Much detail is given here about the 'giants' that were on the earth in those days. Eating more than can be produced and eventually eating men. Did you ever consider that 'Jack and the Beanstalk' wasn't just a tale for children?


Chapter 8

1Moreover Azazyel taught men to make swords, knives, shields, breastplates, the fabrication of mirrors, and the workmanship of bracelets and ornaments, the use of paint, the beautifying of the eyebrows, the use of stones of every valuable and select kind, and all sorts of dyes, so that the world became altered.
2Impiety increased; fornication multiplied; and they transgressed and corrupted all their ways.
3Amazarak taught all the sorcerers, and dividers of roots:
4Armers taught the solution of sorcery;
5Barkayal taught the observers of the stars, (9)
(9) Observers of the stars. Astrologers (Charles, p. 67).
6Akibeel taught signs;
7Tamiel taught astronomy;
8And Asaradel taught the motion of the moon,
9And men, being destroyed, cried out; and their voice reached to heaven.

Pretty straightforward in my opinion, keep in mind that these men here that are crying out, is the same word used for the creation of 'man' in Gen 1, Adam. These men, were Adamic men, born of the spirit of God, this doesn't cover the other people here before Adam. These events are leading up to the Great Deluge of Noah. When these same Adamic men were destroyed for their evil ways.


Chapter 9

1Then Michael and Gabriel, Raphael, Suryal, and Uriel, looked down from heaven, and saw the quantity of blood which was shed on earth, and all the iniquity which was done upon it, and said one to another, It is the voice of their cries;
2The earth deprived of her children has cried even to the gate of heaven.
3And now to you, O you holy one of heaven, the souls of men complain, saying, Obtain Justice for us with (10) the Most High. Then they said to their Lord, the King, You are Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings. The throne of your glory is for ever and ever, and for ever and ever is your name sanctified and glorified. You are blessed and glorified.
(10) Obtain justice for us with. Literally, "Bring judgment to us from." (Richard Laurence, ed. and trans., The Book of Enoch the Prophet [London: Kegan Paul, Trench & Co., 1883], p. 9).
4You have made all things; you possess power over all things; and all things are open and manifest before you. You behold all things, and nothing can be concealed from you.
5You have seen what Azazyel has done, how he has taught every species of iniquity upon earth, and has disclosed to the world all the secret things which are done in the heavens.
6Samyaza also has taught sorcery, to whom you have given authority over those who are associated with him. They have gone together to the daughters of men; have lain with them; have become polluted;
7And have discovered crimes (11) to them.
(11) Discovered crimes. Or, "revealed these sins" (Charles, p. 70).
8The women likewise have brought forth giants.
9Thus has the whole earth been filled with blood and with iniquity.
10And now behold the souls of those who are dead, cry out.
11And complain even to the gate of heaven.
12Their groaning ascends; nor can they escape from the unrighteousness which is committed on earth. You know all things, before they exist.
13You know these things, and what has been done by them; yet you do not speak to us.
14What on account of these things ought we to do to them?


Chapter 10

1Then the Most High, the Great and Holy One spoke,
2And sent Arsayalalyur (12) to the son of Lamech,
(12) Arsayalalyur. Here one Greek text reads "Uriel."
3Saying, Say to him in my name, Conceal yourself.
4Then explain to him the consummation which is about to take place; for all the earth shall perish; the waters of a deluge shall come over the whole earth, and all things which are in it shall be destroyed.
5And now teach him how he may escape, and how his seed may remain in all the earth.
6Again the Lord said to Raphael, Bind Azazyel hand and foot; cast him into darkness; and opening the desert which is in Dudael, cast him in there.
7Throw upon him hurled and pointed stones, covering him with darkness;
8There shall he remain for ever; cover his face, that he may not see the light.
9And in the great day of judgment let him be cast into the fire.
10Restore the earth, which the angels have corrupted; and announce life to it, that I may revive it.
11All the sons of men shall not perish in consequence of every secret, by which the Watchers have destroyed, and which they have taught, their offspring.
12All the earth has been corrupted by the effects of the teaching of Azazyel. To him therefore ascribe the whole crime.
13To Gabriel also the Lord said, Go to the biters, (13) to the reprobates, to the children of fornication; and destroy the children of fornication, the offspring of the Watchers, from among men; bring them forth, and excite them one against another. Let them perish by mutual slaughter; for length of days shall not be theirs.
(13) Biters. More accurately, "bastards" (Charles, p. 73; Michael A. Knibb, ed. and trans., The Ethiopic Book of Enoch [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1978], p. 88).
14They shall all entreat you, but their fathers shall not obtain their wishes respecting them; for they shall hope for eternal life, and that they may live, each of them, five hundred years.
15To Michael likewise the Lord said, Go and announce his crime to Samyaza, and to the others who are with him, who have been associated with women, that they might be polluted with all their impurity. And when all their sons shall be slain, when they shall see the perdition of their beloved, bind them for seventy generations underneath the earth, even to the day of judgment, and of consummation, until the judgment, the effect of which will last for ever, be completed.
16Then shall they be taken away into the lowest depths of the fire in torments; and in confinement shall they be shut up for ever.
17Immediately after this shall he, (14) together with them, burn and perish; they shall be bound until the consummation of many generations.
(14) He. I.e., Samyaza.
18Destroy all the souls addicted to dalliance, (15) and the offspring of the Watchers, for they have tyrannized over mankind.
(15) Dalliance. Or, "lust" (Knibb, p. 90; cp. Charles, p. 76).
19Let every oppressor perish from the face of the earth;
20Let every evil work be destroyed;
21The plant of righteousness and of rectitude appear, and its produce become a blessing.
22Righteousness and rectitude shall be for ever planted with delight.
23And then shall all the saints give thanks, and live until they have begotten a thousand children, while the whole period of their youth, and their sabbaths shall be completed in peace. In those days all the earth shall be cultivated in righteousness; it shall be wholly planted with trees, and filled with benediction; every tree of delight shall be planted in it.
24In it shall vines be planted; and the vine which shall be planted in it shall yield fruit to satiety; every seed, which shall be sown in it, shall produce for one measure a thousand; and one measure of olives shall produce ten presses of oil.
25Purify the earth from all oppression, from all injustice, from all crime, from all impiety, and from all the pollution which is committed upon it. Exterminate them from the earth.
26Then shall all the children of men be righteous, and all nations shall pay me divine honours, and bless me; and all shall adore me.
27The earth shall be cleansed from all corruption, from every crime, from all punishment, and from all suffering; neither will I again send a deluge upon it from generation to generation for ever.
28In those days I will open the treasures of blessing which are in heaven, that I may cause them to descend upon earth, and upon all the works and labour of man.
29Peace and equity shall associate with the sons of men all the days of the world, in every generation of it.

This book goes on for many more chapters, 105 in all. But interesting of note, especially in the face of those that hate the message of race in the bible,

105:10 "And now, my father, hear me; for to my son Lamech a child has been born, who resembles not him; and whose nature is not like the nature of man. His colour is whiter than snow; he is redder than the rose; the hair of his head is whiter than white wool; his eyes are like the rays of the sun; and when he opened them he illuminated the whole house."

We know from scripture that Lamech was Noahs father, but Apocryphal literature which is not accepted in the biblical canon has the story that Lamech raised him but Noah was not his biological son. Noah was the son of "Gods" (the angels which we just read of coming to earth and creating children). The story told is that Lamech came home one day and saw a child that didnt belong. He asked his wife who the child was and the wife told him the child was Lamech's. Lamech was outraged. His wife pleaded saying it was his son and not one of the sons of "Gods" that the child was a son of man. Lamech went to his father to ask for help. His father than asked Enoch what his son should do about this mysterious child. Enoch told him he should name his Noah and keep him as his own for one day he will be chosen.

It is my belief that many of the Apocryphal books were 'hidden' due to their over abundant racial message in relation to the Word. Race doesn't sit well in a soon to be 'universal' world. One people right? Or are we really different, need to accept that, and work from there to build Gods kingdom?

Sorry to digress so much, Enoch and Job are responsible for the construction of the Great Pyramid, and we know from early history that the early Egyptians were white. It is referred to as the Pillar of Enoch, The ancient Egyptians called it the "Pillar of Enoch". Enoch's "fingerprint's" are all over it. Did you ever wonder why Enoch lived 365 years? The same number of days in our solar year. More precisely if you go to the Apocryphal book of Enoch, he lived 365 years 88 days and 9 hours. Or 365.242 years. You see, God had it planned that way. He made Enoch live the exact length of our solar year and then he took him. But Where? Normally you could express someone's life from birth to death with a straight line. But with Enoch you can't. His line would be a circle and if you take 365.242 years and reduced them to sacred inches you get the Enoch circle. This same circle can be measured in the Anti-chamber within the King's chamber complex. It is a "Map" room that gives you the key to interpreting the whole message in the Pyramid. One inch equals one year, as in Enoch's life.



I'm rambling now, so Ill cut it short. i hope this may have helped shed some light on this subject.

Yah bless


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#18
7angels

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this is how i look at creation. there are more scripture to point at this but here is about half that i have come up with.


if you look up the two words formless(empty waste-#8414 strongs) and void(emptiness and ruin-#922 strongs) you will see that tells us God created empty waste and ruin.


no there was a happening that took place between gen 1:1 and gen 1:2. we need to understand this in order to get the big picture of things. now to my understanding everything Jesus talks about that is made by God is good. God is life. so if God created this then it is the first thing God created that was a ruin and empty waste. so i can only assume that God did not create it this way. is 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. vain(#8414 strongs) this shows that when God created the heavens and the earth that God did not create it empty or wasteful but created it to be inhabited. gen 1:2 and is 45:18 are a contradiction because gen 1:1 shows God created the heavens and the earth and then in gen 1:2 it says God created it as a empty waste/ruin but is 45:18 says it was not created an empty waste. so what happened?


jer 4 shows jeremiah having a vision of what will happen if isreal does not turn back to him. verse 23 says I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. we have the same words(without form and void)being used here as in gen 1:2. so jeremiah is seeing the same picture that was in gen 1:2. so what happened and what is this all about? if you know the character of God you know something is wrong to say God created something a waste, ruin, uninhabitable. God is the God of life and what you see in Gen 1:2 is death which is totally contrary to the character of God. so something happened between gen 1:1 and gen 1:2.
this is when satan fell. gen 1:1 was created before lucifer sinned. the original earth was created for lucifer and in gen 1:2 it is destroyed. gen 1:3 is not the creation but the recreation for man. scriptural references for proof are: gen 1:28 says And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. now how can you replenish something that has never been plenished in the first place? right here he shows that there was an original life on the earth and that they were to reestablish a new life on this earth. is 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! what nations is he talking about? there had to be nations affected by his fall. is 14:13 says For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven(this part tells us that he was not in heaven when this all dawned on him), I will exalt my throne above the stars of God(this shows us that there were stars already in heaven at this time): I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds(so there were clouds in heaven too); I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. ez 28 is a prophesy against the king of tyrus but is also talking about lucifer because of verse 12 forward because no human being can fulfill that. a double prophesy is taking place here. verse 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty(no human being outside of adam and eve can fit this description and this verse is not talking of adam). 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God(only one person outside of adam and eve was in the garden and that was lucifer); every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub(no human being has ever been a cherub) that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God(no human has ever been on god's holy mountain so it is easy to say that this was lucifer); thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise(where did he get trade) they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings(what kings?), that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people(what people?) shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. matt 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. the word foundation is a poor meaning of the greek word katbole which speaks of overthrow and casting down. so if the translators had translated the word correctly Jesus then referred to gen 1:1 and gen 1:2 as an overthrow or casting down of the world system at some point.


one last point gen 1:2 the word was is used many times in scripture and means to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out. it does not talk about what was but what transpired to be. so if read like this: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth became without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. so when was becomes became then the verse makes sense.


this could also explain the time difference of how dinosaurs lived millions of years ago. no scripture to back it up but it makes sense.


hope this helped
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#19
aspen

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As so as we developed a concept of the self, we were alienated from God and self. We looked back at the time before self conscious as pristine and sinless. We longed for that time once more, rather than being abandoned in a world of pain and consequences. A giant Flood represented a terrible fear and complete loss of control and certain annihilation. God reached out to us and we responded poorly to His sovereignty. God sent Jesus to teach us how to respond to Him - trusting in Christ will eventually lead us back to God.
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St. John says, "The light shineth in the darkness, and the darkness apprehended it not;" that is, the self-hood in its own will and working, cannot apprehend it; but in resignation the liberty of God shines in it. - Jakob Boehme

#20
veteran

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this is how i look at creation. there are more scripture to point at this but here is about half that i have come up with.


if you look up the two words formless(empty waste-#8414 strongs) and void(emptiness and ruin-#922 strongs) you will see that tells us God created empty waste and ruin.


no there was a happening that took place between gen 1:1 and gen 1:2. we need to understand this in order to get the big picture of things. now to my understanding everything Jesus talks about that is made by God is good. God is life. so if God created this then it is the first thing God created that was a ruin and empty waste. so i can only assume that God did not create it this way. is 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. vain(#8414 strongs) this shows that when God created the heavens and the earth that God did not create it empty or wasteful but created it to be inhabited. gen 1:2 and is 45:18 are a contradiction because gen 1:1 shows God created the heavens and the earth and then in gen 1:2 it says God created it as a empty waste/ruin but is 45:18 says it was not created an empty waste. so what happened?


jer 4 shows jeremiah having a vision of what will happen if isreal does not turn back to him. verse 23 says I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. we have the same words(without form and void)being used here as in gen 1:2. so jeremiah is seeing the same picture that was in gen 1:2. so what happened and what is this all about? if you know the character of God you know something is wrong to say God created something a waste, ruin, uninhabitable. God is the God of life and what you see in Gen 1:2 is death which is totally contrary to the character of God. so something happened between gen 1:1 and gen 1:2.
this is when satan fell. gen 1:1 was created before lucifer sinned. the original earth was created for lucifer and in gen 1:2 it is destroyed. gen 1:3 is not the creation but the recreation for man. scriptural references for proof are: gen 1:28 says And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. now how can you replenish something that has never been plenished in the first place? right here he shows that there was an original life on the earth and that they were to reestablish a new life on this earth. is 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! what nations is he talking about? there had to be nations affected by his fall. is 14:13 says For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven(this part tells us that he was not in heaven when this all dawned on him), I will exalt my throne above the stars of God(this shows us that there were stars already in heaven at this time): I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds(so there were clouds in heaven too); I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. ez 28 is a prophesy against the king of tyrus but is also talking about lucifer because of verse 12 forward because no human being can fulfill that. a double prophesy is taking place here. verse 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty(no human being outside of adam and eve can fit this description and this verse is not talking of adam). 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God(only one person outside of adam and eve was in the garden and that was lucifer); every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub(no human being has ever been a cherub) that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God(no human has ever been on god's holy mountain so it is easy to say that this was lucifer); thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise(where did he get trade) they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings(what kings?), that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people(what people?) shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. matt 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. the word foundation is a poor meaning of the greek word katbole which speaks of overthrow and casting down. so if the translators had translated the word correctly Jesus then referred to gen 1:1 and gen 1:2 as an overthrow or casting down of the world system at some point.


one last point gen 1:2 the word was is used many times in scripture and means to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out. it does not talk about what was but what transpired to be. so if read like this: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth became without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. so when was becomes became then the verse makes sense.


this could also explain the time difference of how dinosaurs lived millions of years ago. no scripture to back it up but it makes sense.


hope this helped


Good that you know about all that. A lot more of God's Truth in His Word is going to be opened up to you because He has given you to know that, and of the time of Satan's original rebellion against Him.

I must point out that the KJV word "replenish" in the Hebrew simply means 'to fill'.
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#21
Angelina

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Hi All!
If God were restoring something which previously existed...surely, he would not be renaming them...

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Gen 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

They would be called, what they were called previously and not given a name as if they were newly created..

Shalom!!!
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1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

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#22
ChristRoseFromTheDead

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If God were restoring something which previously existed...surely, he would not be renaming them...
They would be called, what they were called previously and not given a name as if they were newly created..


Such common sense is lost on those who are wise in their own eyes.

Edited by HeRoseFromTheDead, 19 February 2012 - 02:43 PM.

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#23
Lively Stone

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The Earth was without form and was void, and chaos reigned. The Earth was pre-existent and God knew what it was called, yet He renewed it and brought new life forth in it.
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I will make your towers of sparkling rubies,
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and your walls of precious stones.
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#24
Angelina

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Such common sense is lost on those who are wise in their own eyes.


Thanks HeRose!
I am glad that you can also see, what has obviously been overlooked... :)

Blessings!!!
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#25
veteran

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Hi All!
If God were restoring something which previously existed...surely, he would not be renaming them...

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Gen 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

They would be called, what they were called previously and not given a name as if they were newly created..

Shalom!!!


That still does not do away with the Scripture evidence already cited in the earlier posts.
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#26
ChristRoseFromTheDead

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That still does not do away with the Scripture evidence already cited in the earlier posts.


What you think is evidence is really just your opinion based on twisted reasoning.

Edited by HeRoseFromTheDead, 20 February 2012 - 06:27 PM.

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#27
veteran

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What you think is evidence is really just your opinion based on twisted reasoning.


Is that an attempt to dispute what was layed out in the earlier Scripture examples? If you think I've twisted the meaning of those verses, then can you prove it by the Scripture itself instead offerring opinion?
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#28
ChristRoseFromTheDead

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Is that an attempt to dispute what was layed out in the earlier Scripture examples? If you think I've twisted the meaning of those verses, then can you prove it by the Scripture itself instead offerring opinion?


I'm simply stating my opinion that you do violence to scripture. It's pointless to try to explain anything to you. I can show you things that are actually evidence - photographs, scientific research, linguistic correlations, etc., - that prove your interpretation of a certain scripture is wrong; and you completely ignore that reality because it doesn't validate your cherished interpretation. You're set in your ways and think you know what you're talking about. Complete waste of time putting new wine into an old wineskin.

I am glad that you can also see, what has obviously been overlooked... :)


I hope this makes sense.

At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. Matthew 11:25-26


And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18:3


Edited by HeRoseFromTheDead, 20 February 2012 - 09:54 PM.

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This is the work of God: that you believe into the one [the father] set apart. John 6:29

Interlinear Bible ... Interlinear LXX ... theWord ... Azal revealed (Zechariah 14:5)


#29
veteran

veteran

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I'm simply stating my opinion that you do violence to scripture. It's pointless to try to explain anything to you. I can show you things that are actually evidence - photographs, scientific research, linguistic correlations, etc., - that prove your interpretation of a certain scripture is wrong; and you completely ignore that reality because it doesn't validate your cherished interpretation. You're set in your ways and think you know what you're talking about. Complete waste of time putting new wine into an old wineskin.


So you can show me all kinds of man's science to try and disprove my coverage of the Scriptures in question, but not from those actual Scriptures. That's understandable, because what you're really saying in between the lines is that you don't really know what the Scripture is pointing to.

Edited by veteran, 21 February 2012 - 10:41 AM.

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