283 replies to this topic

[denny123]

I just recently read a book Called, "Jesus: son of God, clone of God. " by Harry Walther and he suggested that Jesus was really a clone of God the Father. It really hit home with me. The first verse that poped into my mind was when Jesus said if you've sceen me you've sceen the Father. If I was a clone of my dad that is exactly what I would say. And when Jesus said the father in heaven is greater than I am, I beleive he ment the father was greater simply because the father always exsisted yet Jesus was created. What do you all think?

[Disciple]

Good thoughts I like the whole clone idea.. I try not to worry about all that stuff, alot of people debate or state that 'Jesus is God' and other things but the way I see it he is Gods Son, my Savior.

[Walking in Grace]

I just recently read a book Called, "Jesus: son of God, clone of God. " by Harry Walther and he suggested that Jesus was really a clone of God the Father. It really hit home with me. The first verse that poped into my mind was when Jesus said if you've sceen me you've sceen the Father. If I was a clone of my dad that is exactly what I would say. And when Jesus said the father in heaven is greater than I am, I beleive he ment the father was greater simply because the father always exsisted yet Jesus was created. What do you all think?

What honorable son of a father does not seek to pattern himself after the father he admires? To clone himself after his father's image, so to speak.

It is no mystery, except perhaps to this world that knows no honor. A good son obediently submits to the will of his deserving father.

And what father who takes great delight in a son who so honors him does not give of all he has in honor of that son?

It is no mystery, except perhaps to this world where men seek mostly to glorify and honor themselves.

When properly understood the realationship between the Father and the Son is one we can immitate and so perfect our image of Him and of them.

We must be careful not to rob the beauty of the Son's loyalty to his Father away from him by our views.

[Walking in Grace]

We sinful men tend to see everything with a view to how our physical eyes see things.

Not one word of what Jesus spoke is about trying to describe a physical-like comparison between he and his Father.

Of Jesus' Father the scripture says, 2 Chronicles 2:6 "But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?"

Forget trying to understand God in terms of what He looks like and begin seeing Him in terms of what His qualities are. For that is how it is we see the Father in the Son.

A good son emulates his father. Jesus has done that flawlessly.

[TexUs]

If we're made in his image we can deduce the Father has a body similar to both ours and Christ's.
He walked with Adam and Eve. Moses saw his back. Etc.

The clone idea might have merit. The same embodiment but different roles.
The HS being an exception I guess.

[Walking in Grace]

Certainly we can deduce that he has the power to take on any body he so chooses at any time he so chooses. But is that body him or is he just using that body?

Will you just ignore 2 Chronicles 2:6 ? If a large material building cannot contain him do you really suppose a human body can?

You do not know what God looks like in a physical way or is like in a physical way and you may never know. That is why John could truthfully say, John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

1 John 4:12 "No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

Ponder how John says we see God: 3 John 1:11 "Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God."

We can see that picture at work in 1 John 4:20 also as at 1 John 4:12. It is not about a physical eye view as to who God is. It never was and never will be.

Those that get locked on trying to see God in that fleshly physical sort of a way hinder their own running and they hinder the running of those that believe them.

You might desire to press forward to see in your mind's eye the really important view of God and His Son, but that is your choice to make.

When those alive in Jesus day saw the physicasl man Jesus, they saw the Son of Man.

When they looked not at the flesh with fleshly eyes but at his spirit with spiritual eyes, they then saw the Son of God.

We are yet able to see Jesus that way today if we let ourselves be taught to see him.

And it is only when we can see Jesus that way that we can say we know his Father shined through him.

Edited by Walking in Grace, 17 February 2011 - 03:01 PM.

[Duckybill]

I just recently read a book Called, "Jesus: son of God, clone of God. " by Harry Walther and he suggested that Jesus was really a clone of God the Father. It really hit home with me. The first verse that poped into my mind was when Jesus said if you've sceen me you've sceen the Father. If I was a clone of my dad that is exactly what I would say. And when Jesus said the father in heaven is greater than I am, I beleive he ment the father was greater simply because the father always exsisted yet Jesus was created. What do you all think?

God created God? Nah.

[TexUs]

God created God? Nah.

Oh I didn't even read that far.

I still think the clone theory/imagery has merit but yes, I'd disagree Jesus being a creation.

[Walking in Grace]

Oh I didn't even read that far.

I still think the clone theory/imagery has merit but yes, I'd disagree Jesus being a creation.

A clone would have all of the personal features and powers of that which it was cloned of, however totally independent of that of which it was a clone. And that is simply not how Jesus describes himself.

God needs nothing. Jesus needs God.

God chooses to love Jesus because Jesus chooses to love God, even as we are told that if we love God He will love us.

God honors Jesus with glory and power because Jesus so completely honors God.

It is not difficult to understand. Most merely wrestle with seeing it because they have had tare roots mingled into the word they have received.

I mean, how silly is it that one would argue that John 5:18 shows Jesus presented himself as equal to God and therefore must be God.

What father of you wants his child to be less than you?

Silly, silly, silly.

[Anastacia]

A clone would have all of the personal features and powers of that which it was cloned of, however totally independent of that of which it was a clone. And that is simply not how Jesus describes himself.

God needs nothing. Jesus needs God.

God chooses to love Jesus because Jesus chooses to love God, even as we are told that if we love God He will love us.

God honors Jesus with glory and power because Jesus so completely honors God.

It is not difficult to understand. Most merely wrestle with seeing it because they have had tare roots mingled into the word they have received.

I mean, how silly is it that one would argue that John 5:18 shows Jesus presented himself as equal to God and therefore must be God.

What father of you wants his child to be less than you?

Silly, silly, silly.

Do you or don't you believe that Jesus is God in the flesh?

[Anastacia]

To the OP, I think that using the human understanding of "clone" could be a helpful tool in trying to explain how God and Jesus are the same. I have used that example to an Atheist before, but resist using that analogy though, because the word isn't in the Bible.

Some Bible scriptures to study:

John 1: 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Hebrews 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.


Paul says "For which of the angels did God EVER say.......," the obvious answer is--- to no angel did God ever say...., because Jesus was never an angel. (For those who say Jesus was an angel.)

Hebrews 1:5

5For to which of the angels did God ever say,
"You are my Son;
today I have become your Father"? Or again,
"I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son"?


In Hebrews 1:8 and 9, doesn't God call Jesus "God"?

Hebrews 1:8But about the Son he says,
"Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy."


God is invisible. Jesus is God made visible.

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Colossians 1:16-17 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.


Before Jesus came to earth in the flesh, didn't he exist in heaven with God, with the glorified body he returned to God with, after he ascended to heaven? See these scriptures:


John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

John 17:24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

[Walking in Grace]

Do you or don't you believe that Jesus is God in the flesh?

I absolutely know he was not.

In the flesh Jesus had to be the exact equal of man for him to win man out from under the penalty for sin.

The concept that Jesus was God in the flesh makes a joke out of what Jesus accomplished for us. It is based in a severe lack of deeper insight into the scriptures.

Satan loves that teaching.

[Walking in Grace]

John 1: 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. Exactly, as it is Jesus that Proverbs chapter eight describes. John 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.


(Not by him but John 1:3 Through him (or, in him) all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. Proverbs 8:30 "Then I was by him, as a master workman; And I was daily his delight, Rejoicing always before him," (ASV) Proverbs 8:30 "Then I was by his side, as a master workman: and I was his delight from day to day, playing before him at all times;" (BBE) Proverbs 8:30 "I was with him forming all things: and was delighted every day, playing before him at all times;" (Douay - Rheims) Proverbs 8:30 "Then I was the craftsman by his side. I was a delight day by day, Always rejoicing before him," (WEB) Proverbs 8:30 "Then I am near Him, a workman, And I am a delight -- day by day. Rejoicing before Him at all times," (YLT)


Hebrews 1:3 ""The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven." 100% true, and the powerful word that he sustained things with was his Fathre's word just as he exhibited to us when he came in the flesh, so completely living by God's Word that he was to us "The Word of God."


Paul says "For which of the angels did God EVER say.......,Hebrews 1:5" the obvious answer is--- to no angel did God ever say...., because Jesus was never an angel. (For those who say Jesus was an angel.) The dumb part of this logic is that it gives no reasoning why Paul should even consider in the first place whether it was ever an angel that was spoken to that way. It leaves Paul pulling that thought out of nothing. Silly, silly, silly. And I have not even yet told you yet how it is correctly understood. You don't even realize that this whole picture here painted is based on the power and authority behindf the human line of Judean Kings. So you stretch it to fit your silly desire for a Trinity.


In Hebrews 1:8 and 9, doesn't God call Jesus "God"? The answeris no, he does not. Your view has God talking to himself in a silly fashion. But worse it hides an important truth from those who are side-tracked buying into your belief with you.

Ridding out the evil tampering that was done to the verse by tares: Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says,
"God is your throne for ever and ever,
and (God's)righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy."
Above what companions? Above the earthly line of kings that sat on the same thrown as David. That is why God never spoke what he did to angels. He spoke it to that line of human kings and exalted Jesus above all of them.

Look at this silly logic. God is invisible. Jesus is God made visible. By your own description Jesus would only have been God made visible while in the flesh. You totally discount the scriptures you here go on to cite are speaking after he was no longer in the flesh.

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Colossians 1:16-17 16For by (Greek "en", literally in) him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. In other words God his Father vested all things "in" him and what things are about to be brought back to is what they were always anyway. Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:



Again your wisdom leaves you not seeing. No one that I know of even disputes this. Before Jesus came to earth in the flesh, didn't he exist in heaven with God, with the glorified body he returned to God with, after he ascended to heaven? See these scriptures:


John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

John 17:24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

Silly, silly, silly.

Edited by Walking in Grace, 17 February 2011 - 09:31 PM.

[Anastacia]

I absolutely know he was not.

In the flesh Jesus had to be the exact equal of man for him to win man out from under the penalty for sin.

The concept that Jesus was God in the flesh makes a joke out of what Jesus accomplished for us. It is based in a severe lack of deeper insight into the scriptures.

Satan loves that teaching.

Again, you should be careful how you judge....it could be the very thing you are guilty of. Satan might love your teaching.


Jesus was a man, but the scriptures tell us he was more than just a man.

Paul says "For which of the angels did God EVER say.......,Hebrews 1:5" the obvious answer is--- to no angel did God ever say...., because Jesus was never an angel. (For those who say Jesus was an angel.) The dumb part of this logic is that it gives no reasoning why Paul should even consider in the first place whether it was ever an angel that was spoken to that way. It leaves Paul pulling that thought out of nothing. Silly, silly, silly. And I have not even yet told you yet how it is correctly understood. You don't even realize that this whole picture here painted is based on the power and authority behindf the human line of Judean Kings. So you stretch it to fit your silly desire for a Trinity.


In Hebrews 1:8 and 9, doesn't God call Jesus "God"? The answeris no, he does not. Your view has God talking to himself in a silly fashion. But worse it hides an important truth from those who are side-tracked buying into your belief with you.

Ridding out the evil tampering that was done to the verse by tares: Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says,
"God is your throne for ever and ever,
and (God's)righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy."
Above what companions? Above the earthly line of kings that sat on the same thrown as David. That is why God never spoke what he did to angels. He spoke it to that line of human kings and exalted Jesus above all of them.

Look at this silly logic. God is invisible. Jesus is God made visible. By your own description Jesus would only have been God made visible while in the flesh. You totally discount the scriptures you here go on to cite are speaking after he was no longer in the flesh.

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Colossians 1:16-17 16For by (Greek "en", literally in) him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. In other words God his Father vested all things "in" him and what things are about to be brought back to is what they were always anyway. Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:



Again your wisdom leaves you not seeing. No one that I know of even disputes this. Before Jesus came to earth in the flesh, didn't he exist in heaven with God, with the glorified body he returned to God with, after he ascended to heaven? See these scriptures:


John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

John 17:24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

Silly, silly, silly.

I tried, but I can't make out the mess you made out of what I posted. From what I can make out, it is obvious you don't understand the scriptures, nor what I said. And I admit to not knowing what in the world you are talking about, nor what and why you believe what you do.

[Walking in Grace]

Again, you should be careful how you judge....it could be the very thing you are guilty of. Satan might love your teaching.


Jesus was a man, but the scriptures tell us he was more than just a man.




I tried, but I can't make out the mess you made out of what I posted. From what I can make out, it is obvious you don't understand the scriptures, nor what I said. And I admit to not knowing what in the world you are talking about, nor what and why you believe what you do.

I am very ill with the flu right now so I guess i am being a bit lazy. But i am too miserable to sleep.

To understand Hebrews 1:5 compare it to the following:

Hebrews 2:5 ¶For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 ¶For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

The subject matter of Hebrews chapter one moves quickly to discussing the promise that the throne of David would be established forever and is speaking about how this is fulfilled in Christ Jesus. Jesus is that twig out of the stump of Jesse as was pictured in King David. The book of Acts speaks on this also.

You cannot in all integrity just say that Jesus was never an angel based upon what Hebrews 1: 5 says. We must look for what Paul was saying, and Hebrews 2: 5-10 basically epitomizes all that Paul said in chapter one up to that point.

Until a person grasps that chapter one's discussion is about Jesus' fulfilling God's promise to David that his throne and his kingdom would be established forever, they most often do butcher the explanation of what is said.

The older 'Interpreter's Bible' has a fair discussion of it. If I remember right it also discusses a bit about the issue of how Psalms 45:7 and Hebrews 1:8 ought to be translated. The O before God was very clearly not a part of the original text. And such small seemingly innocent additions have a huge impact on the exegesis. That is because they convey the tamperer's thought which then disallows other possible ways of understanding the verses.

But once you see clearly that it is the throne of David which is among men that is being discussed then everything else makes sense. And then learning a little bit about the way the power and authority behind the throne that those Judean kings (Jesus' companions) sat on, the correct and gramatically allowable translation of Psalms 45:7 and hebrews 1:8 becomes quite clear.

Thak God for blinding those not really disposed to his righteousness, for if they did have that deeper understanding they may have been able to succeed in hiding the truth from us at such places. But as it is, they are easy to see through once one gains a more detailed knowledge. The only ones that will remain blind are those who do not really care to know. And they will always only ever have as a whole a false apperance of knowledge.

[Anastacia]

I am very ill with the flu right now so I guess i am being a bit lazy. But i am too miserable to sleep.

To understand Hebrews 1:5 compare it to the following:

Hebrews 2:5 ¶For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 ¶For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

The subject matter of Hebrews chapter one moves quickly to discussing the promise that the throne of David would be established forever and is speaking about how this is fulfilled in Christ Jesus. Jesus is that twig out of the stump of Jesse as was pictured in King David. The book of Acts speaks on this also.

You cannot in all integrity just say that Jesus was never an angel based upon what Hebrews 1: 5 says. We must look for what Paul was saying, and Hebrews 2: 5-10 basically epitomizes all that Paul said in chapter one up to that point.

Until a person grasps that chapter one's discussion is about Jesus' fulfilling God's promise to David that his throne and his kingdom would be established forever, they most often do butcher the explanation of what is said.

The older 'Interpreter's Bible' has a fair discussion of it. If I remember right it also discusses a bit about the issue of how Psalms 45:7 and Hebrews 1:8 ought to be translated. The O before God was very clearly not a part of the original text. And such small seemingly innocent additions have a huge impact on the exegesis. That is because they convey the tamperer's thought which then disallows other possible ways of understanding the verses.

But once you see clearly that it is the throne of David which is among men that is being discussed then everything else makes sense. And then learning a little bit about the way the power and authority behind the throne that those Judean kings (Jesus' companions) sat on, the correct and gramatically allowable translation of Psalms 45:7 and hebrews 1:8 becomes quite clear.

Thak God for blinding those not really disposed to his righteousness, for if they did have that deeper understanding they may have been able to succeed in hiding the truth from us at such places. But as it is, they are easy to see through once one gains a more detailed knowledge. The only ones that will remain blind are those who do not really care to know. And they will always only ever have as a whole a false apperance of knowledge.

I hope you get over the flu soon.

From what you say in this post, am I right in that you believe Jesus was an angel before he came to earth?

I still am not sure what you think you are proving from the scriptures.

Maybe you can go slower? Start maybe with one point at a time?

Here's a question for you to think about and answer; I know the answer,but would like to hear how you explain, since you do not believe Jesus is God: Is the Holy Spirit the Spirit of God, or of Jesus? I say of God or Jesus, because you say they are not the same. So, explain your beliefs.

Edited by Anastacia, 17 February 2011 - 11:10 PM.

[Walking in Grace]

I hope you get over the flu soon.

From what you say in this post, am I right in that you believe Jesus was an angel before he came to earth?

I still am not sure what you think you are proving from the scriptures.

Maybe you can go slower? Start maybe with one point at a time?

Here's a question for you to think about and answer; I know the answer,but would like to hear how you explain, since you do not believe Jesus is God: Is the Holy Spirit the Spirit of God, or of Jesus? I say of God or Jesus, because you say they are not the same. So, explain your beliefs.

Thank you. I hope I get over this flu too! LOL. But if I never had to endure suffering what would I ever learn. I am too stubborn to learn anything the easy way.

I do not claim to know one way or the other if Jesus was an angel. I do believe he was always higher than the angels and that lends greatness to the humility that he showed by willing submitting to become lower than the angels.

Psalms 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Hebrews 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

To say that Jesus was ever only an angel rubs my gut as disrespectful.

But then being reasonable, I must admit that being chief over the angels (which is all archangel means) does not have to mean that he is himself an angel.

Matthew 16:27 "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."


______________________________

The Holy Spirit is of God and God can put it into whomever's hands he wishes to allow control of it.

At Revelation 1:14 we see that Jesus' "eyes were as a flame of fire". That is the Holy Spirit which fills him. That is his Father's empowering of him.

I tend to be annoyed that people seem to go to extremes in everything. I accept that the Holy Spirit communicates to me as though it is a person. But I see that it does things for me beyond what a person could do. I see no need to question whether it is or is not a person but just to be grateful that it is. And it has unquestionably proved to me that it is real. I have become totally dependent on it and joyfully so.

Why should men debate things that the scriptures themselves do not debate? Cannot men see that to do this only opens up a greater possibility for men's wisdom to begin mixing in with God's pure unadulterated Word?

But, yes, I have in the past deeply researched the subject. In accord with my stubbornness it took me a while to figure out that while I was spending my time trying to know things that the scriptures did not see fit to specifically detail, I was holding myself up from progressing on to learn the truly important things. I was not at that time really listening to the Spirit and allowing it to direct me.

I have some close relatives who became Jehovah's Witnesses. They teach that they in their door to door work are the locusts of the book of Joel. I do not quite understand how they can say that when it seems this speaks of their end: Joel 2:20 "But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things." But I could be wrong. I am currently pondering that. They tend not to like to talk to me, though, so it is a bit difficult to hear them out on the subject.

My point is that I can see where the chewing of the locusts which get into everything about the church (the church being pictured by the children of Zion there) is likely all of this unworthy contest that is generated by those that push to discuss beyond what the scriptures focus upon. But it seems these locusts have spread the tendency to do this as spreading a disease. And I am not saying it is only Jehovah's Witnesses that do that. I believe I see many who do it which has caused the physical appearance of the church to become sickly. This is the growth of the seed of the tares which has sought roots together with the good seed in the futile soil of the hearts of the visible sons of the kingdom.

[Anastacia]

My replies to Walking in Grace are in blue.

I do not claim to know one way or the other if Jesus was an angel. I do believe he was always higher than the angels and that lends greatness to the humility that he showed by willing submitting to become lower than the angels.
You do not know one way or the other if Jesus was an angel? But you have done nothing but reprimand others studying to know and understand what the scriptures tell us!?


To say that Jesus was ever only an angel rubs my gut as disrespectful.

Since you claim that you don't know one way or the other if Jesus was an angel---then how in the world can you get your gut rubbed about it being disrespectful? Unlike you, many know what the scriptures say who Jesus is, and they think you are disrespectful.

But then being reasonable, I must admit that being chief over the angels (which is all archangel means) does not have to mean that he is himself an angel.
Archangel DOES mean angel!


______________________________

The Holy Spirit is of God and God can put it into whomever's hands he wishes to allow control of it.
So your answer is that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, and that God only put it into Jesus' hands to allow control of it? That is a wrong answer.

I tend to be annoyed that people seem to go to extremes in everything.
You sound very judgmental about other people.


Why should men debate things that the scriptures themselves do not debate? Cannot men see that to do this only opens up a greater possibility for men's wisdom to begin mixing in with God's pure unadulterated Word? What you say doesn't make sense. You do not even know if Jesus was an angel or not, nor do you know that an archangel is an angel, yet you want people to not discuss certain things?

But, yes, I have in the past deeply researched the subject. In accord with my stubbornness it took me a while to figure out that while I was spending my time trying to know things that the scriptures did not see fit to specifically detail, I was holding myself up from progressing on to learn the truly important things. I was not at that time really listening to the Spirit and allowing it to direct me.
Just because you can't figure it out...that doesn't mean no one else can.


I have some close relatives who became Jehovah's Witnesses. They teach that they in their door to door work are the locusts of the book of Joel. I do not quite understand how they can say that when it seems this speaks of their end: Joel 2:20 "But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things." But I could be wrong. I am currently pondering that. They tend not to like to talk to me, though, so it is a bit difficult to hear them out on the subject.

My point is that I can see where the chewing of the locusts which get into everything about the church (the church being pictured by the children of Zion there) is likely all of this unworthy contest that is generated by those that push to discuss beyond what the scriptures focus upon. But it seems these locusts have spread the tendency to do this as spreading a disease. And I am not saying it is only Jehovah's Witnesses that do that. I believe I see many who do it which has caused the physical appearance of the church to become sickly. This is the growth of the seed of the tares which has sought roots together with the good seed in the futile soil of the hearts of the visible sons of the kingdom.

That is some strange teaching you say the Jehovah Witnesses have.


You say Jesus is not God. So I then asked you to tell me if the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit or Jesus' Spirit. I gave you the choice of the Holy Spirit being God's or Jesus' because you say God and Jesus are not the same. Your answer is that the Holy Spirit is God's and that God allowed Jesus to control it. That answer is wrong. The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit and Jesus' Spirit. God and Jesus have the same Spirit because they are the same.

God's Spirit
Matthew 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.
1 Corinthians 3:16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you?

Jesus' Spirit
Galatians 4:6 Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."

God and Jesus have the same Spirit. God and Jesus are One. Jesus is God in the flesh.

[Anastacia]

More scriptures on God and Jesus have the same Spirit.

Romans 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

Romans 8:14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

1 Corinthians 2:10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man’s spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

1 Corinthians 2:12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.

1 Corinthians 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 6:11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

! Corinthians 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

1 Corinthians 7:40 In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is—and I think that I too have the Spirit of God.

Acts 16:7 When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to.

Ephesians 3:16 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,


These aren't all the scriptures speaking of the Spirit of God, but wanted to post more for whomever is interested.

Edited by Anastacia, 18 February 2011 - 02:10 AM.

[Anastacia]

Read this beautiful and powerful scripture:

John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

The Father and Jesus will come and make their home with those who obey his teaching....both the Father and the Son. Yet, we have One Spirit living inside us from God and Jesus. The Father and the Son are One.

Edited by Anastacia, 18 February 2011 - 02:30 AM.

[Angelina]

Hi denny!

I just recently read a book Called, "Jesus: son of God, clone of God. " by Harry Walther and he suggested that Jesus was really a clone of God the Father. It really hit home with me. The first verse that poped into my mind was when Jesus said if you've sceen me you've sceen the Father. If I was a clone of my dad that is exactly what I would say. And when Jesus said the father in heaven is greater than I am, I beleive he ment the father was greater simply because the father always exsisted yet Jesus was created. What do you all think?

Great post and good theory...lets see how it measures up against the word of God.

Philippians 2 [NKJV] ⁵ Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, ⁶ who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, ⁷ but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. ⁸ And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

Philippians 2 [Amplified Bible]
⁵Let this same attitude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus: [Let Him be your example in humility
⁶Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained,
⁷But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being.

John 17[NKJV]
Jesus Prays for Himself
¹ Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, ² as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. ³ And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. ⁴ I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. ⁵ And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

⁶ “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. ⁷ Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. ⁸ For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
⁹ “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. ¹⁰ And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. ¹¹are. ¹² While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. ¹³ But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. ¹⁴ I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. ¹⁵ I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. ¹⁶ They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. ¹⁷ Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. ¹⁸ As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. ¹⁹ And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth. Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me,
that they may be one as We

Jesus Prays for All Believers
²⁰ “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; ²¹ that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. ²² And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: ²³ I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. ²⁴ “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. ²⁵ O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. ²⁶ And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.

Based on the word of God...I do not believe that Jesus was created, nor do I believe that he was Father God who came down in the form of flesh...

As the word clearly states...Jesus was the Son of God and equal with God in respect to all his attributes and fullness as God [God - the Son]

.He came to earth being obedient to his father [God - the Father], even death on the cross, on our behalf. He promised that he would not leave us as orphans but that he will send a helper to be with us forever, even to the end of age [God - the Holy Spirit] This is what I understand to be the Godhead - the Trinity...

John 14 NKJV
¹⁵ “If you love Me, keep My commandments. ¹⁶ And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— ¹⁷ the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. ¹⁸ I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.


Indwelling of the Father and the Son
¹⁹ “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. ²⁰ At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. ²¹ He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

I love this quote:

“Defend the Bible? I would just as soon defend a lion. Just turn the Bible loose. It will defend itself.”
Charles Spurgeon

I hope that this helped a little....Blessings!!!

Edited by Angelina, 18 February 2011 - 02:29 AM.

[Walking in Grace]

My replies in Red to Anastacia.
My replies to Walking in Grace are in blue.

I do not claim to know one way or the other if Jesus was an angel. I do believe he was always higher than the angels and that lends greatness to the humility that he showed by willing submitting to become lower than the angels.
You do not know one way or the other if Jesus was an angel? But you have done nothing but reprimand others studying to know and understand what the scriptures tell us!?

I know because I am one in Christ. I need not guess because I actually do commune with Christ and sit with the Holy Spirit and that i cannot deny. You might fool others with such displays as this. However any sincere ones that cannot be presently untangled from your teachings will be untangled very shortly. In the end you will have accomplished nothing. My prayer for you is that when you come face to face with Christ you will then let go of such pride in your own knowledge that he might have mercy upon you and begin to teach you.

I do not judge you. There is one that judges us all. The word that Jesus spoke judges us. Our deviation from that word judges us.

You are describing things the way of a fleshly minded man who sees in a fleshly way. You describe words like angel and archangel as though a type of being, or a type of a parallel to a physical body. I see them as spiritual functions. I know that at times humans are called angels (messengers of God) in many places throughout the scriptures.

To say that Jesus was ever only an angel rubs my gut as disrespectful.

Since you claim that you don't know one way or the other if Jesus was an angel---then how in the world can you get your gut rubbed about it being disrespectful? Unlike you, many know what the scriptures say who Jesus is, and they think you are disrespectful.

But then being reasonable, I must admit that being chief over the angels (which is all archangel means) does not have to mean that he is himself an angel.
Archangel DOES mean angel!

You here argue like a locust who has not knowledge but only knows how to chew. Jesus served in a messenger function at times I am sure. But I am also sure that he was also more than that at any of those times.

The only value to anything you have said here is to try to impress others via emotions. You are making an emotional plea for agreement from those who think as you do. Silly, silly, silly. Better to be concerned with learning the truth than that others agree with you. Your views are the popular views. That in itself ought to be cause for you to rethink them for it was not prophesied to be that way.
______________________________

The Holy Spirit is of God and God can put it into whomever's hands he wishes to allow control of it.
So your answer is that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, and that God only put it into Jesus' hands to allow control of it? That is a wrong answer.

My answer is that you speak what you do not know. You speak what you have squeezed the word to have it say to you. My answer is you are welcome to squeeze the word without my participation. I know all I am supposed to know about the Holy Spirit.

I tend to be annoyed that people seem to go to extremes in everything.
You sound very judgmental about other people.

You are welcome to pounce on that statement if you wish. Annoyed is not disturbed. The ignorance of others is their burden, not mine.

Why should men debate things that the scriptures themselves do not debate? Cannot men see that to do this only opens up a greater possibility for men's wisdom to begin mixing in with God's pure unadulterated Word? What you say doesn't make sense. You do not even know if Jesus was an angel or not, nor do you know that an archangel is an angel, yet you want people to not discuss certain things?

I would not expect that would make sense to you based upon your comments here. But that is OK. You are quite welcome to believe what you desire to believe.

But, yes, I have in the past deeply researched the subject. In accord with my stubbornness it took me a while to figure out that while I was spending my time trying to know things that the scriptures did not see fit to specifically detail, I was holding myself up from progressing on to learn the truly important things. I was not at that time really listening to the Spirit and allowing it to direct me.
Just because you can't figure it out...that doesn't mean no one else can.

You wish that were true. I did figure out what is meant for a man to figure out. I stopped trying to figure out what is not given to man to know at this present time.


I have some close relatives who became Jehovah's Witnesses. They teach that they in their door to door work are the locusts of the book of Joel. I do not quite understand how they can say that when it seems this speaks of their end: Joel 2:20 "But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things." But I could be wrong. I am currently pondering that. They tend not to like to talk to me, though, so it is a bit difficult to hear them out on the subject.

My point is that I can see where the chewing of the locusts which get into everything about the church (the church being pictured by the children of Zion there) is likely all of this unworthy contest that is generated by those that push to discuss beyond what the scriptures focus upon. But it seems these locusts have spread the tendency to do this as spreading a disease. And I am not saying it is only Jehovah's Witnesses that do that. I believe I see many who do it which has caused the physical appearance of the church to become sickly. This is the growth of the seed of the tares which has sought roots together with the good seed in the futile soil of the hearts of the visible sons of the kingdom.

That is some strange teaching you say the Jehovah Witnesses have.


You say Jesus is not God. So I then asked you to tell me if the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit or Jesus' Spirit. I gave you the choice of the Holy Spirit being God's or Jesus' because you say God and Jesus are not the same. Your answer is that the Holy Spirit is God's and that God allowed Jesus to control it. That answer is wrong. The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit and Jesus' Spirit. God and Jesus have the same Spirit because they are the same.

God's Spirit
Matthew 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.
1 Corinthians 3:16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you?

Jesus' Spirit
Galatians 4:6 Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."
Boy did you miss the point of that one! LOL.
God and Jesus have the same Spirit. God and Jesus are One. Jesus is God in the flesh.

You just like to argue. Stay right where you are in your understanding and whistle as though content.

Edited by Walking in Grace, 18 February 2011 - 02:42 AM.

[Anastacia]

Creator Of All---the LORD God Old Testament Psalm 102:24-27; Applied to Jesus in New Testament Heb 1:8,10-12

Prepare Way For---the LORD God Old Testament Isaiah 40:3 and Malachi 3:1; Applied to Jesus in the New Testament John 1:23, 30.

The LORD God pierced---the LORD God Old Testament Zechariah 12:10; Applied to Jesus in the New Testament John 19:37

Call on the LORD God---the LORD God Old Testament Joel 2:32; Applied to Jesus in the New Testament Acts 2:21,36; 4:10-12

Edited by Anastacia, 18 February 2011 - 03:03 AM.

[Walking in Grace]

Creator Of All---the LORD God Old Testament Psalm 102:24-27; Applied to Jesus in New Testament Heb 1:8,10-12

Prepare Way For---the LORD God Old Testament Isaiah 40:3 and Malachi 3:1; Applied to Jesus in the New Testament John 1:23, 30.

The LORD God pierced---the LORD God Old Testament Zechariah 12:10; Applied to Jesus in the New Testament John 19:37

Call on the LORD God---the LORD God Old Testament Joel 3:32; Applied to Jesus in the New Testament Acts 2:21,36; 4:10-12

I am going to go no further with on this subject as I see no point to it. Just keep thinking you understand if that is what you wish to do.

[Anastacia]

I'm done discussing anything with the member named Walking in Grace. I've tried to discuss patiently and kindly, but have spent too much time reading his/her brute insults and slanderous words.

[Walking in Grace]

I'm done discussing anything with the member named Walking in Grace. I've tried to discuss patiently and kindly, but have spent too much time reading his/her brute insults and slanderous words.

It is not an easy task to present the word when it disagrees with someone else's views.

Such is life. It all serves it purpose in its place else God would not allow it.

At least we do not resort to stoning each other as we realize that ultimately Christ himself will set matters straight and he will convince whomever might ultamately be convinced. So we judge that we have correctly understood knowing our own sincerety and sometimes the other does not like that. But we have not long left to wait. That is a joyful thought knowing Christ will be the one to call out the end of the matter.

[Walking in Grace]

I would like to take just a moment to speak about some features of translation that are absolutely necessary for a Bible student to understand lest they be prone to off-the-wall interpretations.

I have previously spoke about how one must understand the subject matter in places like Hebrews chapter one before they can accurately understand what it is saying. And I pointed out that Hebrews 2:5-10 is Paul's epitimization of what he spoke concerning in chapter one, that being how the promise to king David that his throne would endure forever was fulfilled in Christ Jesus. I will later present you a more precisely detailed proof of that. I will outline it so completely you will have to see what Paul is really saying.

For now though I would like to tell you a good thing that I very much respect about the KJV Bible, but that got lost when they wote the NKJV. And that is its treatment of singular and plural pronouns.

In the KJV, thee, thou, thy, and thine always were the singular pronoun in the original Biblical language. You, your, and yours were always translating the plural pronoun in the original Biblical language. But the NKJV lost that and began translating both plural and singular number pronouns as you, your, and yours just as we do in modern English.

If that is not bad enough, people are so spoiled of modern English that they most often read the plural pronouns you, your, and yours even from the KJV as though they are singular. And this corrupts their understanding of what the writer actually said. And being so spoiled by modern English, many do not even know how to apply them when they know they are plural.

This greatly affects our understanding of the temple and of the Holy Spirit.

I encourage you all to read in the front preface of an AKJV to see that what I have told you here is true.

In the original Biblical language the plural pronoun indicated that what the speaker stated applies broadly to the entire group being spoken to.

The singular pronoun applied to the inviduals within the group or even to a specific individual.

This is but one little thing you can take charge of learning so that you can stop being pawns to every twist of teaching which comes along to support someone's mistaken view of the scriptures being discussed.

Another thing I encourage you to learn about is Greek prepositions. They are sometimes wrongly transalted in the KJV and its offshoot Bibles. I can only figure that this was due to translator bias toward Trinitarian beliefs.

But you can learn about these things for yourself. They are not difficult to understand.

I would wish you could also learn more but those two things will in and of themselves greatly improve your ability to correctly understand what you read. Of course, when it comes to prepositions you will have to get in the habit of checking to see what prepositions was actually used in the original text.

If you do not care to do these simple things then you do not really care to accurately understand. That is your choice to make.

Edited by Walking in Grace, 18 February 2011 - 05:17 AM.

[Duckybill]

God needs nothing. Jesus needs God.

Jesus is God.

John 20:28-29 (NKJV)
²⁸ And Thomas answered and said to Him, "MY LORD AND MY GOD!" ²⁹ Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

I absolutely know he was not.

In the flesh Jesus had to be the exact equal of man for him to win man out from under the penalty for sin.

The concept that Jesus was God in the flesh makes a joke out of what Jesus accomplished for us. It is based in a severe lack of deeper insight into the scriptures.

Satan loves that teaching.

Guess you missed this.

John 1 The Word was God... The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Creator Of All---the LORD God Old Testament Psalm 102:24-27; Applied to Jesus in New Testament Heb 1:8,10-12

Prepare Way For---the LORD God Old Testament Isaiah 40:3 and Malachi 3:1; Applied to Jesus in the New Testament John 1:23, 30.

The LORD God pierced---the LORD God Old Testament Zechariah 12:10; Applied to Jesus in the New Testament John 19:37

Call on the LORD God---the LORD God Old Testament Joel 2:32; Applied to Jesus in the New Testament Acts 2:21,36; 4:10-12

Excellent!

John 1: 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD.

You should have read what you wrote.

[tomwebster]

The Trinity isn't a mystery to me and I don't think it ever has been a mystery to me!

[TexUs]

Do you or don't you believe that Jesus is God in the flesh?

I absolutely know he was not.

Need anything else be said?


For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.