283 replies to this topic

[Anastacia]

What has been confused here is the personal name of God, the nature of God and the origin and nature of Jesus Christ.

Something the Oneness group has thoroughly missed.

I'm not Oneness Pentecostal.

Again: Dave, Jesus was with God from the beginning. Jesus was alive in heaven before he came to earth as the Son. Jesus is the visible God made visible.

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

[Jacob T]

No.

Gen 18:1-2; "The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.
Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby.

YHWH in Hebrew, Theos in Greek, Not Logos. God appears in a number of places as a theophany or his Words, ( "dabar" / "rhema"), are carried by angelic messengers.


Gen 15:1
15:1 After this, the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision:

In this verse the Hebrew term is "dabar" which in the Greek OT is "rhema" not logos.


Patience Jacob

Selective reasoning that supports your theology.

Lets finish reading the verse.
¹ Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre,^[a] as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. ² So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, ³ and said, “My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant.

Then tell me why does Abraham run out and bow to the ground and call Him O Lord? We can see in other biblical accounts that If this was an Angel the Angel would not allow Abraham to bow down. By bowing and saying O Lord it pretty plain this is not an Angel. Rev 19:10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus. Worship God."

O Lord lower case Gen 18:3
136 'Adonay ad-o-noy' am emphatic form of 113; the Lord (used as a proper name of God only):--(my) Lord.
113 113 'adown aw-done' or (shortened) adon {aw-done'}; from an unused root (meaning to rule); sovereign, i.e. controller (human or divine):-- lord, master, owner. Compare also names beginning with "Adoni-".

[Dave Jones]

I'm not Oneness Pentecostal.

Again: Dave, Jesus was with God from the beginning. Jesus was alive in heaven before he came to earth as the Son. Jesus is the visible God made visible.

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Care to explain yourself Jacob?

You said that "Jesus was alive in heaven before he came to earth as the Son".

Nothing in any Scripture I know of states or implies anything of the kind.

The Plan of Salvation was in the Mind of God prior to creation. That included God's, (The Father's), plan to beget His Son and place His, (The Father's), Logos, (Word), within Jesus upon His, (Jesus'), incarnation, (John 1:14).

[Jacob T]

Care to explain yourself Jacob?

You said that "Jesus was alive in heaven before he came to earth as the Son".

Nothing in any Scripture I know of states or implies anything of the kind.

The Plan of Salvation was in the Mind of God prior to creation. That included God's, (The Father's), plan to beget His Son and place His, (The Father's), Logos, (Word), within Jesus upon His, (Jesus'), incarnation, (John 1:14).

Open your eyes Dr Jones I have shown you in Gem 18 above and below here. Failing or ignoring the full context of the passages doesn't make it go away. Anastacia quoted 1 Cor 1:15 as well.

he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, ³ and said, “My Lord,

Your simply practicing selective reading again. Its not so hard to find scripture that says other wise. I've shown you both in the OT and the NT. Just as Pauls says in Col. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

You said that "Jesus was alive in heaven before he came to earth as the Son".
Nothing in any Scripture I know of states or implies anything of the kind.

¹³ He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, ¹⁴ in whom we have redemption through His blood,^[c] the forgiveness of sins.
¹⁵ He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. ¹⁶ For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. ¹⁷ And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. ¹⁸ And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Edited by Jacob T, 27 February 2011 - 04:12 PM.

[Dave Jones]

Selective reasoning that supports your theology.

It would be good if the true significance of a Theophany was thoroughly realized. A manifestation of God, carrying His authority.

You would bow down as well just like Daniel did.

Or perhaps you believe that Jesus needed Michael's help against the Prince of Persia?


Dan 10:7-11: I, Daniel, was the only one who saw the vision; the men with me did not see it, but such terror overwhelmed them that they fled and hid themselves. So I was left alone, gazing at this great vision; I had no strength left, my face turned deathly pale and I was helpless. Then I heard him speaking, and as I listened to him, I fell into a deep sleep, my face to the ground. A hand touched me and set me trembling on my hands and knees. He said, "Daniel, you who are highly esteemed, consider carefully the words I am about to speak to you, and stand up, for I have now been sent to you." And when he said this to me, I stood up trembling. Then he continued, "Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael , one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come." While he was saying this to me, I bowed with my face toward the ground and was speechless. Then one who looked like a man touched my lips, and I opened my mouth and began to speak. I said to the one standing before me, "I am overcome with anguish because of the vision, my lord, and I am helpless. How can I, your servant, talk with you, my lord? My strength is gone and I can hardly breathe." Again the one who looked like a man touched me and gave me strength. "Do not be afraid, O man highly esteemed," he said. "Peace! Be strong now; be strong." When he spoke to me, I was strengthened and said, "Speak, my lord, since you have given me strength." So he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come; but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. No one supports me against them except Michael , your prince.

[Anastacia]

Care to explain yourself Jacob?

You said that "Jesus was alive in heaven before he came to earth as the Son".

Nothing in any Scripture I know of states or implies anything of the kind.

The Plan of Salvation was in the Mind of God prior to creation. That included God's, (The Father's), plan to beget His Son and place His, (The Father's), Logos, (Word), within Jesus upon His, (Jesus'), incarnation, (John 1:14).

Dave, you called me Jacob.

The plan of salvation was made prior to creation.

You said nothing in any scripture you know of states or implies that Jesus was alive with God in heaven before Jesus came to earth.

Here are scriptures for you to consider carefully:

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

That one scripture should be enough for you, but here is more:

John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

John 17:24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

Psalm 110:1 Of David. A psalm. The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."

[Dave Jones]

¹⁵ He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. ¹⁶ For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. ¹⁷ And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. ¹⁸ And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

I wish more people understood literary device?

"The image eikoon (NT:1504). In predicate and no article. On eikoon (NT:1504), see 2 Cor 4:4; 3:18; Rom 8:29; Col 3:10. Jesus is the very stamp of God the Father as he was before the Incarnation (John 17:5) and is now (Phil 2:5-11; Heb 1:3).

Of the invisible God tou (NT:3588) Theou (NT:2316) tou (NT:3588) aoratou (NT:517). But the one who sees Jesus has seen God (John 14:9). See this verbal adjective a (NT:1), the alpha privative ("not"), and horaoo (NT:3708) in Rom 1:20.

The first born proototokos (NT:4416). Predicate adjective again and anarthrous. This passage is parallel to the Logos (NT:3056) passage in John 1:1-18 and to Heb 1:1-4 as well as Phil 2:5-11 in which these three writers (John, author of Hebrews, Paul) give the high conception of the Person of Christ (both Son of God and Son of Man) found also in the Synoptic Gospels and even in Q (the Father, the Son). This word (the Septuagint and the New Testament) can no longer be considered purely "Biblical" (Thayer), since it is found in inscriptions (Deissmann, Light, etc., p. 91) and in the papyri (Moulton and Milligan, Vocabulary, etc.). See it already in Luke 2:7 and Codex Sinaiticus ('Aleph) for Matt 1:25; Rom 8:29. The use of this word does not show what Arius argued that Paul regarded Christ as a creature like "all creation" pasees (NT:3956) ktiseoos (NT:2937), by metonomy the act regarded as result)]. It is rather the comparative (superlative) force of prootos (NT:4413) that is used (first-born of all creation) as in Col 1:18; Rom 8:29; Heb 1:6; 12:23; Rev 1:5. Paul is here refuting the Gnostics who pictured Christ as one of the aeons by placing him before "all creation" (angels and men). Like eikoon (NT:1504) we find proototokos (NT:4416) in the Alexandrian vocabulary of the Logos teaching (Philo) as well as in the Septuagint. Paul takes both words to help express the deity of Jesus Christ in his relation to the Father as eikoon (NT:1504) (Image) and to the universe as proototokos (NT:4416) (First-born)."

(from Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997 by Biblesoft & Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament. Copyright © 1985 by Broadman Press)

[Anastacia]

I wish more people understood literary device?

"The image eikoon (NT:1504). In predicate and no article. On eikoon (NT:1504), see 2 Cor 4:4; 3:18; Rom 8:29; Col 3:10. Jesus is the very stamp of God the Father as he was before the Incarnation (John 17:5) and is now (Phil 2:5-11; Heb 1:3).

Of the invisible God tou (NT:3588) Theou (NT:2316) tou (NT:3588) aoratou (NT:517). But the one who sees Jesus has seen God (John 14:9). See this verbal adjective a (NT:1), the alpha privative ("not"), and horaoo (NT:3708) in Rom 1:20.

The first born proototokos (NT:4416). Predicate adjective again and anarthrous. This passage is parallel to the Logos (NT:3056) passage in John 1:1-18 and to Heb 1:1-4 as well as Phil 2:5-11 in which these three writers (John, author of Hebrews, Paul) give the high conception of the Person of Christ (both Son of God and Son of Man) found also in the Synoptic Gospels and even in Q (the Father, the Son). This word (the Septuagint and the New Testament) can no longer be considered purely "Biblical" (Thayer), since it is found in inscriptions (Deissmann, Light, etc., p. 91) and in the papyri (Moulton and Milligan, Vocabulary, etc.). See it already in Luke 2:7 and Codex Sinaiticus ('Aleph) for Matt 1:25; Rom 8:29. The use of this word does not show what Arius argued that Paul regarded Christ as a creature like "all creation" pasees (NT:3956) ktiseoos (NT:2937), by metonomy the act regarded as result)]. It is rather the comparative (superlative) force of prootos (NT:4413) that is used (first-born of all creation) as in Col 1:18; Rom 8:29; Heb 1:6; 12:23; Rev 1:5. Paul is here refuting the Gnostics who pictured Christ as one of the aeons by placing him before "all creation" (angels and men). Like eikoon (NT:1504) we find proototokos (NT:4416) in the Alexandrian vocabulary of the Logos teaching (Philo) as well as in the Septuagint. Paul takes both words to help express the deity of Jesus Christ in his relation to the Father as eikoon (NT:1504) (Image) and to the universe as proototokos (NT:4416) (First-born)."

(from Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997 by Biblesoft & Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament. Copyright © 1985 by Broadman Press)

Dave, can you speak in your own words? Or do you have to use dictionaires and explanations copy and pasted from other men? Also I want to say, we do not have to have a degree, nor know about "literary device" to know the Truth. Nor do we have to know Koine Greek, Hebrew, nor Aramaic.

[Dave Jones]

Dave, you called me Jacob.

The plan of salvation was made prior to creation.

You said nothing in any scripture you know of states or implies that Jesus was alive with God in heaven before Jesus came to earth.

Here are scriptures for you to consider carefully:

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

That one scripture should be enough for you, but here is more:

John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

John 17:24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

Psalm 110:1 Of David. A psalm. The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."

I apologize Anastacia.

Jesus is referring to the incarnate Logos of His Father. Jesus knew who he was, what he was comprised of.

I keep referring to The Father's Logos as John has said.

This section of Scripture is not meant to draw a picture of Jesus Christ the man, walking around with His Father in heaven after His resurrection.

[Anastacia]

Jesus was alive with God even before Jesus came to earth.

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

John 17:24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

This section of Scripture is not meant to draw a picture of Jesus Christ the man, walking around with His Father in heaven after His resurrection.

Do you think that is what Jesus looks like now? the way he looked in his human form in the flesh on earth? If you do, then you are badly mistaken.

[Jacob T]

I wish more people understood literary device?

"The image eikoon (NT:1504). In predicate and no article. On eikoon (NT:1504), see 2 Cor 4:4; 3:18; Rom 8:29; Col 3:10. Jesus is the very stamp of God the Father as he was before the Incarnation (John 17:5) and is now (Phil 2:5-11; Heb 1:3).

Of the invisible God tou (NT:3588) Theou (NT:2316) tou (NT:3588) aoratou (NT:517). But the one who sees Jesus has seen God (John 14:9). See this verbal adjective a (NT:1), the alpha privative ("not"), and horaoo (NT:3708) in Rom 1:20.

The first born proototokos (NT:4416). Predicate adjective again and anarthrous. This passage is parallel to the Logos (NT:3056) passage in John 1:1-18 and to Heb 1:1-4 as well as Phil 2:5-11 in which these three writers (John, author of Hebrews, Paul) give the high conception of the Person of Christ (both Son of God and Son of Man) found also in the Synoptic Gospels and even in Q (the Father, the Son). This word (the Septuagint and the New Testament) can no longer be considered purely "Biblical" (Thayer), since it is found in inscriptions (Deissmann, Light, etc., p. 91) and in the papyri (Moulton and Milligan, Vocabulary, etc.). See it already in Luke 2:7 and Codex Sinaiticus ('Aleph) for Matt 1:25; Rom 8:29. The use of this word does not show what Arius argued that Paul regarded Christ as a creature like "all creation" pasees (NT:3956) ktiseoos (NT:2937), by metonomy the act regarded as result)]. It is rather the comparative (superlative) force of prootos (NT:4413) that is used (first-born of all creation) as in Col 1:18; Rom 8:29; Heb 1:6; 12:23; Rev 1:5. Paul is here refuting the Gnostics who pictured Christ as one of the aeons by placing him before "all creation" (angels and men). Like eikoon (NT:1504) we find proototokos (NT:4416) in the Alexandrian vocabulary of the Logos teaching (Philo) as well as in the Septuagint. Paul takes both words to help express the deity of Jesus Christ in his relation to the Father as eikoon (NT:1504) (Image) and to the universe as proototokos (NT:4416) (First-born)."

(from Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997 by Biblesoft & Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament. Copyright © 1985 by Broadman Press)

I see your not going to provide some scriptural evidence proving Gen 18 is not Jesus "Lord" pre NT. You still only wish to quote NT passages that support your thesis Jesus or God didn't appear or have a likeness of man before Jesus NT. I'm done making my point, you simply see and read what you like to see and understand.

John 6:45-46
⁴⁵ It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’^[e] Therefore everyone who has heard and learned^[f] from the Father comes to Me. ⁴⁶ Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.

John 5:37
³⁷ And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

Like I said you refuse to admit th Lord in Gen 18 that Abraham bowed and said O Lord, can be non other than Jesus.

Edited by Jacob T, 27 February 2011 - 04:56 PM.

[Anastacia]

Dave,
Do I understand you right that you believe Jesus didn't exist as Jesus before he came to earth in the flesh?

If I'm right in what you believe, then would you explain these scriptures to me?

How can God love Jesus before the creation if Jesus wasn't in existence yet?

John 17:24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

If Jesus didn't exist before the world was created, then how could Jesus be the first over all creation?

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

If Jesus didn't exist before the world was created, then how can all things be made through him?

John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

If Jesus did not exist before he came to earth, then explain this scripture that says God made all things for Jesus:

Hebrews 2:10 In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

John 3:17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Here the scripture says the Son was sent. If Jesus didn't exist before he came to earth, then how can he be sent?

Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

See verse 7: but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. This says Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he existed in heaven before he came to earth. Jesus humbled himself.


Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.

Edited by Anastacia, 27 February 2011 - 06:03 PM.

[Anastacia]

Dave,
Do I understand you right that you believe Jesus didn't exist as Jesus before he came to earth in the flesh?

If I'm right in what you believe, then would you explain these scriptures to me?

How can God love Jesus before the creation if Jesus wasn't in existence yet?

John 17:24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

If Jesus didn't exist before the world was created, then how could Jesus be the first over all creation?

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

If Jesus didn't exist before the world was created, then how can all things be made through him?

John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

If Jesus did not exist before he came to earth, then explain this scripture that says God made all things for Jesus:

Hebrews 2:10 In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

John 3:17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Here the scripture says the Son was sent. If Jesus didn't exist before he came to earth, then how can he be sent?

Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

See verse 7: but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. This says Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he existed in heaven before he came to earth. Jesus humbled himself.


Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.

Edited by Anastacia, 27 February 2011 - 08:13 PM.

[Duckybill]

You said that "Jesus was alive in heaven before he came to earth as the Son".

Nothing in any Scripture I know of states or implies anything of the kind.

John 3:13 (NKJV)
¹³ No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

John 8:58 (NKJV)
⁵⁸ Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

1 Corinthians 10:1-4 (NKJV)
¹ Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, ² all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, ³ all ate the same spiritual food, ⁴ and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST.

[Jacob T]

Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.

Edited by Jacob T, 28 February 2011 - 01:54 AM.

[Dave Jones]

Dave, can you speak in your own words? Or do you have to use dictionaires and explanations copy and pasted from other men? Also I want to say, we do not have to have a degree, nor know about "literary device" to know the Truth. Nor do we have to know Koine Greek, Hebrew, nor Aramaic.

Anastacia, I do wish to answer your questions as they are very good.

First, as to the section I posted from Robertson. The Greek analysis is not necessary for Believers to apprehend God and our LORD Jesus Christ. However, since this is a debate forum and there are some who either can not or will not venture to explain the terms that they use. It is quite possible that they are unable and that is why I post the Greek helps'

As far as the verses you have cited:

John 17:24, Jesus was in the mind of The Father prior to Creation. The Father has always intended to submit His Creation to The Anointed Savior, The Father's only Begotten Son.

Colossians 1:15, The Greek Text for this verse is proototokos, which means first-borne. However the Text says first-born of every creature making the sense earthly. Where John 3:16, uses the Greek term
monogeneé, which is usually translated as only-begotten. The Text is also earth bound, not heavenward.

Hebrews 2:10, God being The Father and author of their salvation is Jesus.

1 Corinthians 10:1-4, the word Christ in verse 4 is an allegorical usage.

John 3:17, Speaking of Christ as Salvation

Philippians 2:5-11, A beautiful section of Scripture. Regarding vers 7, knowing He was the Logos of His Father he humbled Himself as a man.

The John 1:3 passage is still speaking about Logos prior to the incarnation of Christ

The Ezekiel 8:1-3 passage is speaking of 'Adonaay Yahweh, The Father.

[Duckybill]

God called the Son God twice in Hebrews.

Hebrews 1:8-10 (NKJV)
⁸ But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. ⁹ You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions." ¹⁰ And: "You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

[Dave Jones]

God called the Son God twice in Hebrews.

Hebrews 1:8-10 (NKJV)
⁸ But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. ⁹ You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions." ¹⁰ And: "You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

No he did not:

"but of the Son (he says,) Your throne, O God, [The Father], is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom"
.
"You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, [The Father], your God, [your Father], has anointed you With the oil of gladness above your fellows."

Verse 10 in your translation has the right appellation, "Lord"
.
The NKJV seems to be a poor substitute for its KJV father.

[Anastacia]

My replies to Dave Jones in blue.
Anastacia, I do wish to answer your questions as they are very good.
Thank you, Dave, it's very kind of you to say that.

First, as to the section I posted from Robertson. The Greek analysis is not necessary for Believers to apprehend God and our LORD Jesus Christ. However, since this is a debate forum and there are some who either can not or will not venture to explain the terms that they use. It is quite possible that they are unable and that is why I post the Greek helps'
I hope you don't mind my saying it, but people don't have to explain the terms that they use.

As far as the verses you have cited:

John 17:24, Jesus was in the mind of The Father prior to Creation. The Father has always intended to submit His Creation to The Anointed Savior, The Father's only Begotten Son.
“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world." Jesus says the Father loved him before the creation of the world....that supports Jesus existing and not just in the mind of God. You add to the scripture when you say that.
John 17:24 does not support your beliefs that Jesus did not exist before he came to the earth.


Colossians 1:15, The Greek Text for this verse is proototokos, which means first-borne. However the Text says first-born of every creature making the sense earthly. Where John 3:16, uses the Greek term
monogeneé, which is usually translated as only-begotten. The Text is also earth bound, not heavenward.

I don't recall quoting Colossians 1:15 to support Jesus existed before creation. But see verse 16: For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. This scripture shows that Jesus existed with God before he came to heaven...."For in him all things were created.......; all things have been created through him and for him."

Hebrews 2:10, God being The Father and author of their salvation is Jesus.

I don't understand what you mean by saying "God being The Father and author of their salvation is Jesus." Can you explain that more for me?

Hebrews 2:10 says "for whom and through whom everything exists." That scripture supports Colossians 1:15. In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.

1 Corinthians 10:1-4, the word Christ in verse 4 is an allegorical usage.
Christ being the spiritual rock in the time of Moses in the desert proves that Jesus was around before he came to earth as Jesus the Son. You saying it is "allegorical usage" doesn't prove Jesus did not exist before he came to earth.

John 3:17, Speaking of Christ as Salvation

John 3:17 is talking about God sending his Son into the world! If he did not exist before he came to the world, how can he be sent? You did not support your beliefs with that answer. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Philippians 2:5-11, A beautiful section of Scripture. Regarding vers 7, knowing He was the Logos of His Father he humbled Himself as a man.

What? So now you say Jesus humbled himself because he knew he was the Word of God? It sounds to me that you admit that Jesus existed in heaven before he came to earth.


The John 1:3 passage is still speaking about Logos prior to the incarnation of Christ

The scripture says "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." If Jesus didn't exist before he came to earth, as you say, then how were all things made through him and for him?

The Ezekiel 8:1-3 passage is speaking of 'Adonaay Yahweh, The Father.

Does not the Bible say no one has seen the Father, except the Son? So how could Exekiel 8:1-3 be the Father who was seen by the prophet?

Edited by Anastacia, 28 February 2011 - 08:47 PM.

[kaoticprofit]

Anastacia, I do wish to answer your questions as they are very good.

First, as to the section I posted from Robertson. The Greek analysis is not necessary for Believers to apprehend God and our LORD Jesus Christ. However, since this is a debate forum and there are some who either can not or will not venture to explain the terms that they use. It is quite possible that they are unable and that is why I post the Greek helps'

As far as the verses you have cited:

John 17:24, Jesus was in the mind of The Father prior to Creation. The Father has always intended to submit His Creation to The Anointed Savior, The Father's only Begotten Son.

Colossians 1:15, The Greek Text for this verse is proototokos, which means first-borne. However the Text says first-born of every creature making the sense earthly. Where John 3:16, uses the Greek term
monogeneé, which is usually translated as only-begotten. The Text is also earth bound, not heavenward.

Hebrews 2:10, God being The Father and author of their salvation is Jesus.

1 Corinthians 10:1-4, the word Christ in verse 4 is an allegorical usage.

John 3:17, Speaking of Christ as Salvation

Philippians 2:5-11, A beautiful section of Scripture. Regarding vers 7, knowing He was the Logos of His Father he humbled Himself as a man.

The John 1:3 passage is still speaking about Logos prior to the incarnation of Christ

The Ezekiel 8:1-3 passage is speaking of 'Adonaay Yahweh, The Father.

Your method of interpretation and understanding is commendable. People who take offense in understanding God's Word by using the original language just don't know any better and possibly have an inferiority complex. It is the most sensible way in studying the bible and is encouraged by every bible teacher I know and every serious bible student I know. People like James Strong, Thayer and Gesenius have spent years translating the Word from the original text. We're fortunate to have their work avaliable to us as it gives us much greater insight into the meaning of the text.

Isaiah 28:9 　¶Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10 　For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

In my many years of being a Christian, I have never met anyone opposed to utilizing the resources we have avaliable to us in understanding God's Word. It's wise and prudent to search the scriptures and study them in their original language and to use every avaliable means we have in our studies. How else can we be skillful in teaching God's Word if we don't study it in the languages it was written in.

BibleStudytools.com said,

"The Greek Lexicon has been designed to help the user understand the original text of the Bible. By using the Strong's version of the Bible, the user can gain a deeper knowledge of the passage being studied."

Another author said,

"I believe it wise to compare any translation with the original languages of writings. I find many important insights into love and grace from the originals."

2 Timothy 3:16 　All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 　That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Galatians 6:6 　Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.

1 Timothy 4:6 　¶If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

1 Timothy 4:13 　Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

14 　Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

15 　Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.

16 　Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Edited by kaoticprofit, 28 February 2011 - 09:04 PM.

[Duckybill]

No he did not:

"but of the Son (he says,) Your throne, O God, [The Father], is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom"
.
"You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, [The Father], your God, [your Father], has anointed you With the oil of gladness above your fellows."
.
The NKJV seems to be a poor substitute for its KJV father.

Why don't you tell which version you are citing??? It is clearly speaking of Jesus.

Hebrews 1:8 (NKJV)
⁸ But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.

Luke 1:32-33 (NKJV)
³² He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. ³³ And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end."

Isaiah 9:6-7 (NKJV)
⁶ For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. ⁷ Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever.

[Duckybill]

No he did not:

"but of the Son (he says,) Your throne, O GOD, [The Father], is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom"
.
"You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore GOD, [The Father], your GOD, [your Father], has anointed you With the oil of gladness above your fellows."

All these references to GOD are the same Greek word.

John 20:28 (NASB)
²⁸ Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my GOD!"

[Jacob T]

Why don't you tell which version you are citing??? It is clearly speaking of Jesus.

Hebrews 1:8 (NKJV)
⁸ But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.

Luke 1:32-33 (NKJV)
³² He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. ³³ And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end."

Isaiah 9:6-7 (NKJV)
⁶ For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. ⁷ Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever.

Take a look at the JW bible on the JW.org site.
http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/heb/chapter_001.htm

8 But with reference to the Son: “God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. 9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with [the] oil of exultation more than your partners.” 10 And: “You at [the] beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are [the] works of your hands.

Heres the full JW bible so you check his other quotes.
http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/index.htm

[Duckybill]

These references to GOD are the same Hebrew word.

Genesis 17:1 (NASB)
¹ Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am GOD Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless.

Isaiah 9:6 (NASB)
⁶ For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty GOD, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. ⁷ There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore.

[Jacob T]

Say duckybill did you see post 173. His and the JW translation both agree about Heb 1:8

JW bibles says in Heb 1:8
But with reference to the Son: “God is your throne forever and ever,
Non JW bibles say
But to the Son He says: “God is your throne forever and ever,

Big difference as soon as you asked what translation he uses I check the JW bible.

Take a look at the JW bible on the JW.org site.
http://www.watchtowe...chapter_001.htm

8 But with reference to the Son: “God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. 9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with [the] oil of exultation more than your partners.” 10 And: “You at [the] beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are [the] works of your hands.

Heres the full JW bible so you check his other quotes.
http://www.watchtowe...bible/index.htm

I'm done simply because Im pretty certain he is a JW he certainly teaches from the JW biblical interpretation. Hes cool but I have spoken to many. Nether JW or Mormons bother knocking on my door, I think I'm on there black list.

[Dave Jones]

Hebrews 1:8-10 All these references to GOD are the same Greek word.

Yes they are as they all reference The Father.

John 20:28 (NASB)
²⁸ Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my GOD!"

Context Ducky, always context:

John 20:17-29

17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, [Mary], for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

18 Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the Lord!" And she told them that he had said these things to her.
19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21 Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
24 Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"
But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Jesus had already ascended to His Father's side.

The incorporeal Jesus manifesting Himself to Thomas.

Reminds me of Luke 9:28-31

[Dave Jones]

Say duckybill did you see post 173. His and the JW translation both agree about Heb 1:8

JW bibles says in Heb 1:8
But with reference to the Son: “God is your throne forever and ever,
Non JW bibles say
But to the Son He says: “God is your throne forever and ever,

Big difference as soon as you asked what translation he uses I check the JW bible.

Take a look at the JW bible on the JW.org site.
http://www.watchtowe...chapter_001.htm

8 But with reference to the Son: “God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. 9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with [the] oil of exultation more than your partners.” 10 And: “You at [the] beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are [the] works of your hands.

Heres the full JW bible so you check his other quotes.
http://www.watchtowe...bible/index.htm

I'm done simply because Im pretty certain he is a JW he certainly teaches from the JW biblical interpretation. Hes cool but I have spoken to many.

Nice try Jacob, but I am not a JW. Never was never will be.

It's not unusual for even the their translators to come up with the same textual conclusions.

However, my quote was: "but of the Son (he says,) Your throne, O God, [The Father], is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom".
"You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, [The Father], your God, [your Father], has anointed you With the oil of gladness above your fellows."

Do yourself a favor, stop railing against the use of the original Greek and Hebrew Texts as they are really quite beautiful and they, (are), God breathed.

[Duckybill]

Yes they are as they all reference The Father.


Context Ducky, always context:

John 20:17-29

17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, [Mary], for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

18 Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the Lord!" And she told them that he had said these things to her.
19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21 Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
24 Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"
But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Jesus had already ascended to His Father's side.

The incorporeal Jesus manifesting Himself to Thomas.

Reminds me of Luke 9:28-31

Jesus didn't rebuke Thomas for calling Him God. If Thomas was in error Jesus would have severely rebuked Thomas. In fact Jesus commended all who believe He was God.

John 20:29 (NASB)
²⁹ Jesus *said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

[Anastacia]

Anastacia, I do wish to answer your questions as they are very good.

First, as to the section I posted from Robertson. The Greek analysis is not necessary for Believers to apprehend God and our LORD Jesus Christ. However, since this is a debate forum and there are some who either can not or will not venture to explain the terms that they use. It is quite possible that they are unable and that is why I post the Greek helps'

As far as the verses you have cited:

John 17:24, Jesus was in the mind of The Father prior to Creation. The Father has always intended to submit His Creation to The Anointed Savior, The Father's only Begotten Son.

Does the Greek say what you say here, that Jesus was loved only in God's mind? Does the Greek say "mind" like you say? Please tell us.

According to your insistence on using the Greek, and for the fact that you said Jesus was in the mind of the Father, and that would be only on the mind of the Father, the translation in Greek must have the word for mind in it.

You can't prove what you said, not from the English translation, nor the Greek translation. You added to the scripture when you said Jesus was in the mind of the Father.

Edited by Anastacia, 01 March 2011 - 12:24 AM.

[Duckybill]

Jesus was worshiped. Only God is to be worshiped.

Matthew 4:10 (NASB)
¹⁰ Then Jesus *said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE Lord YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'"