283 replies to this topic

[Anastacia]

Jesus was worshiped. Only God is to be worshiped.

Matthew 4:10 (NASB)
¹⁰ Then Jesus *said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE Lord YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'"

Duckybill, Dave Jones does believe that Jesus is the Word of God, but he doesn't believe that Jesus existed in heaven before he came to earth.

[Duckybill]

Duckybill, Dave Jones does believe that Jesus is the Word of God, but he doesn't believe that Jesus existed in heaven before he came to earth.

The problem is that DJ evades saying clearly what he really believes. He avoids simple clear questions. He denies that Jesus is God Almighty. What more do we need to know? He also denies eternal Hell. These are common traits of religious cults.

[Anastacia]

The problem is that DJ evades saying clearly what he really believes. He avoids simple clear questions. He denies that Jesus is God Almighty. What more do we need to know? He also denies eternal Hell. These are common traits of religious cults.

Check out what he says about John 17:24, "Jesus was in the mind of The Father prior to Creation. The Father has always intended to submit His Creation to The Anointed Savior, The Father's only Begotten Son."

This is what the NIV say in John 17:24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

I believe this scripture tells us that Jesus existed in heaven before he came to earth. Jesus says he was loved by the Father before the creation of the earth. But Dave Jones adds to the scripture by saying the Father loved Jesus in His mind.

[Duckybill]

Check out what he says about John 17:24, "Jesus was in the mind of The Father prior to Creation. The Father has always intended to submit His Creation to The Anointed Savior, The Father's only Begotten Son."

This is what the NIV say in John 17:24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

I believe this scripture tells us that Jesus existed in heaven before he came to earth. Jesus says he was loved by the Father before the creation of the earth. But Dave Jones adds to the scripture by saying the Father loved Jesus in His mind.

Excellent point.

[Anastacia]

Excellent point.

Thanks, Duckybill.

[Duckybill]

Thanks, Duckybill.

Perhaps DJ is Mormon? What say ye DJ? Oh that's right, you haven't said. Wonder why.

[Dave Jones]

The problem is that DJ evades saying clearly what he really believes. He avoids simple clear questions. He denies that Jesus is God Almighty. What more do we need to know? He also denies eternal Hell. These are common traits of religious cults.

Ducky, I don't know how much clearer I can be. I have explained over and over who I believe Jesus is through the use of terms that in the original language.

I have never denied that death & haides/ghehenah exists for the ungodly and the unbeliever.

I know what you have been saying about Jesus but your constant use of "God Almighty", is reserved for The Father only, (at least in the original Koine Greek, Aramaic and Latin).

Perhaps DJ is Mormon? What say ye DJ? Oh that's right, you haven't said. Wonder why.

Nope! not a moroni lover, never have been, never will be!

[Dave Jones]

Check out what he says about John 17:24, "Jesus was in the mind of The Father prior to Creation. The Father has always intended to submit His Creation to The Anointed Savior, The Father's only Begotten Son."

This is what the NIV say in John 17:24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

I believe this scripture tells us that Jesus existed in heaven before he came to earth. Jesus says he was loved by the Father before the creation of the earth. But Dave Jones adds to the scripture by saying the Father loved Jesus in His mind.

Thank you Anastacia for these excellent observations, and they do add depth to this discussion and that is what we need.

John said of Jesus, "And The Word became flesh and dwelt among us". Prior to the incarnation, Jesus was not flesh and bones but was going to be The Father's Logos, (Divine expression and much more), incarnate, for us here on Earth.

So that there wouldn't be any misunderstanding, John further explains who Jesus is throughout 1 John. There are 22 verses where John speaks of the relationship between The Father and His Son.

[Duckybill]

Ducky, I don't know how much clearer I can be. I have explained over and over who I believe Jesus is through the use of terms that in the original language.

Tell us in English who/what you believe Jesus is.

I have never denied that death & haides/ghehenah exists for the ungodly and the unbeliever.

How about the eternal fire?

Matthew 25:41 (NASB)
⁴¹ "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into THE ETERNAL FIRE which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

I know what you have been saying about Jesus but your constant use of "God Almighty", is reserved for The Father only, (at least in the original Koine Greek, Aramaic and Latin).

Ok, then tell us who/what Jesus is.

Nope! not a moroni lover, never have been, never will be!

Thanks for clarifying.

[Duckybill]

John said of Jesus, "And The Word became flesh and dwelt among us". Prior to the incarnation, Jesus was not flesh and bones but was going to be The Father's Logos, (Divine expression and much more), incarnate, for us here on Earth.

So that there wouldn't be any misunderstanding, John further explains who Jesus is throughout 1 John. There are 22 verses where John speaks of the relationship between The Father and His Son.

You are terribly confused! The terms GOD are the same Greek word. THE WORD WAS GOD. And the Word became flesh, Jesus!

John 1:1 (NASB)
¹ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with GOD, and the Word was GOD.

[Dave Jones]

You are terribly confused! The terms GOD are the same Greek word. THE WORD WAS GOD. And the Word became flesh, Jesus!
John 1:1 (NASB)
¹ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with GOD, and the Word was GOD.

One really needs to pay attention to grammar. Unless you understand how grammatical terms are used you will continue going around this mountain.

[Duckybill]

One really needs to pay attention to grammar. Unless you understand how grammatical terms are used you will continue going around this mountain.

"The Word was God". Quite simple really.

[Dave Jones]

You are terribly confused! The terms GOD are the same Greek word. THE WORD WAS GOD. And the Word became flesh, Jesus!
John 1:1 (NASB)
¹ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with GOD, and the Word was GOD.

Theos in Greek is a Noun. It has Case, Gender, Person and Number. It also has Determiners, such as the Definite article, (or lack of).

Theos also has a semantic range of definition, (more than one definition/usage). Usually the "Context" determines the definition.

So, Theos does not have the same meaning in every verse.

[Duckybill]

Theos in Greek is a Noun. It has Case, Gender, Person and Number. It also has Determiners, such as the Definite article, (or lack of).

Theos also has a semantic range of definition, (more than one definition/usage). Usually the "Context" determines the definition.

So, Theos does not have the same meaning in every verse.

Why is it that nearly everything you try to explain about the Scriptures drastically changes the clear meaning? Your version of the Bible is drastically different than the ones we already have.

[Dave Jones]

Why is it that nearly everything you try to explain about the Scriptures drastically changes the clear meaning? Your version of the Bible is drastically different than the ones we already have.

I can't see where giving you a basic lesson in Greek grammar has changed anything, certainly not drastically.

Are you against the Greek and Hebrew texts?

Every single translator has had to use these Greek and Hebrew texts in order to translate. And, as you are already aware, there are a number of differences to be noted in all Translations. Just look at the Living Bible or the Amplified Bible or the number of differences between the KJV and the NKJV. There are over 150 different English translations of the Bible including Polyglots, multi-translation and interlinears. Even an Aramaic Peshitta New Testament Translation, (Jesus' mother tongue).

[Duckybill]

There are minor differences in our translations. But overall they are quite consistent. You are trying to change them. Jesus is God. Only God Almighty knows all things.

John 21:17 (NASB)
¹⁷ And he said to Him, "Lord, YOU KNOW ALL THINGS; YOU KNOW THAT I LOVE YOU."

[Anastacia]

Thank you Anastacia for these excellent observations, and they do add depth to this discussion and that is what we need.

John said of Jesus, "And The Word became flesh and dwelt among us". Prior to the incarnation, Jesus was not flesh and bones but was going to be The Father's Logos, (Divine expression and much more), incarnate, for us here on Earth.

So that there wouldn't be any misunderstanding, John further explains who Jesus is throughout 1 John. There are 22 verses where John speaks of the relationship between The Father and His Son.

Thank you for the thanks. I know that prior to the incarnation, Jesus was not flesh and bones. You've already made that statement earlier, which is a fair enough point you are trying to make, but I also explained to you earlier that I was not ever saying Jesus was in heaven as flesh and bones before he came to earth. Read in Revelation what Jesus looks like now. I believe that is what Jesus looked like before.

There are minor differences in our translations. But overall they are quite consistent. You are trying to change them. Jesus is God. Only God Almighty knows all things.

John 21:17 (NASB)
¹⁷ And he said to Him, "Lord, YOU KNOW ALL THINGS; YOU KNOW THAT I LOVE YOU."

This is a wonderful scripture for this topic. And it helps me to understand that Dave Jones does NOT want to say Jesus was God in the flesh, is that right?

[Jacob T]

I can't see where giving you a basic lesson in Greek grammar has changed anything, certainly not drastically.

Are you against the Greek and Hebrew texts?

Every single translator has had to use these Greek and Hebrew texts in order to translate. And, as you are already aware, there are a number of differences to be noted in all Translations. Just look at the Living Bible or the Amplified Bible or the number of differences between the KJV and the NKJV. There are over 150 different English translations of the Bible including Polyglots, multi-translation and interlinears. Even an Aramaic Peshitta New Testament Translation, (Jesus' mother tongue).

According to you, It looks as tough the bible or "Greek" is much to complicated for the uneducated to understand. Isn't it the intent of translators to preserve language regardless of its meaning? I"ll share an observation with you, people that use English bibles of the same translation don't always agree on the intended meaning. You could argue that point with any number of books. Its a translators job to convert a language not determine or presume its meaning as you do. Simple observation tells us it doesn't matter whether its Greek or English people are going to disagree. With all the modern study tools you don't have to know Greek or Hebrew, There are dozens of translations with definitions that disagree with you. Good translators when there is a possible difference of meaning or application mentions them all or both then lets the reader determine intent of meaning.

Your statement above looks as though you question all translations so you can convey your message under the umbrella of your personal knowledge of Greek.
What Im saying is that the lack of knowing Greek is not the reason I or we disagree. But you insist on making "your knowledge of Greek" the tool of choice rather than comparing scripture with scripture. I think you enjoy is platform simply because few do know Greek and can't question your translation. When in reality we simply disagree with what you believe. I already know you avoid comparing scripture with scripture because it conflicts with your goal of having people believe as you do. Those that succumb to people like you become dependent on you to lead them. The reason is because of your miss application or understanding which will lead to another verse that conflicts with your interpretation, which leads them right back to you for clarification. I won't mention the name of a church that started off this way, the end result is a book or books that dwarfs the bible in size seeking to interpret it.

Im not trying being disrespectful Im trying to be a peace maker, by seeing that the problem is not Greek, its the intended meaning of scripture whether it be Greek or English.

Edited by Jacob T, 01 March 2011 - 05:40 PM.

[Dave Jones]

I know that prior to the incarnation, Jesus was not flesh and bones. Read in Revelation what Jesus looks like now. I believe that is what Jesus looked like before.

You may believe that, but there in no definite textual support as to what Jesus looked like before His Incarnation.

John 21:17 This is a wonderful scripture for this topic. And it helps me to understand that Dave Jones does NOT want to say Jesus was God in the flesh, is that right?

Matt 24:36-37 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

It is quite obvious that Jesus did not know "all" things.

And you are right, until you, or someone else here can define what you mean by "G"od, I do NOT wish to say that Jesus Christ was "G"od in the flesh.

[Duckybill]

This is a wonderful scripture for this topic. And it helps me to understand that Dave Jones does NOT want to say Jesus was God in the flesh, is that right?

Exactly!

It is quite obvious that Jesus did not know "all" things.

Jesus "emptied Himself" of His Godly attributes. But He was still God Almighty.

Philippians 2:7 (NASB)
⁷ but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

And you are right, until you, or someone else here can define what you mean by "G"od, I do NOT wish to say that Jesus Christ was "G"od in the flesh.

So then John was delusional.

"The Word was God." "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us."

Thomas was delusional. "My Lord and my God."

Peter was delusional. "Lord you know all things. You know that I love you."

Paul was delusional. Colossians 1:16 (NASB)
¹⁶ For BY HIM ALL THINGS WERE CREATED, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

[Dave Jones]

Im not trying being disrespectful Im trying to be a peace maker, by seeing that the problem is not Greek, its the intended meaning of scripture whether it be Greek or English.

I suppose you could be charged with the same offence as you believe that your understanding is the only correct one.

But this is a forum for "Debate", which is discussion in which people or groups state different opinions. The object is to define terms to help further understanding.

Now, if you cannot define your terms then it really isn't s debate.

I would think, that these debates would be purely academic in nature and not intended to "stone" the opponent
.
The principles of debate are logic, evidence, defining terms, case construction, proof, refuting arguments and rebuttal; and not just rebuttal alone.

Edited by Dave Jones, 01 March 2011 - 06:27 PM.

[Jacob T]

I suppose you could be charged with the same offence as you believe that your understanding is the only correct one.

But this is a forum for "Debate", which is discussion in which people or groups state different opinions. The object is to define terms to help further understanding.

Now, if you cannot define your terms then it really isn't s debate.

I would think, that these are debates would be purely academic in nature and not intended to "stone" the opponent
.
The principles of debate are logic, evidence, defining terms, case construction, proof, refuting arguments and rebuttal; and not just rebuttal alone.

Ohhh now I see, I thought we were looking for the truth, but instead the winner of this debate will be the smarter one. The one that better defines terms. Its just as I said above you get a kick out of debating Greek with people that don't know Greek. Do you have a score card or some unbiased judge keeping score? Are you winning or loosing?

The object is to define terms to help further understanding. Now, if you cannot define your terms then it really isn't s debate.

Edited by Jacob T, 01 March 2011 - 06:34 PM.

[Duckybill]

I learned a LONG time ago that a lot of people claim to know the Biblical languages well. The fact is that they have just as many disagreements as everyone else. Satan has always challenged the truth of God's Word. This display of trying to re-write God's Word is nothing new.

[Dave Jones]

Ohhh now I see, I thought we were looking for the truth

We are and no contest has ever been intended.

I am just really amazed that no one here can define the word God?

If they would, then we could really see if there is really any difference in what we are saying.

[Duckybill]

I am just really amazed that no one here can define the word God?

Yes DJ, we are all so far below your level of understanding God.

[tomwebster]

I learned a LONG time ago that a lot of people claim to know the Biblical languages well. The fact is that they have just as many disagreements as everyone else. Satan has always challenged the truth of God's Word. This display of trying to re-write God's Word is nothing new.

I am not taking dj's side; I know Jesus IS God but Scripture was originally written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. The re-writing was translating it to English.

[Duckybill]

I am not taking dj's side; I know Jesus IS God but Scripture was originally written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. The re-writing was translating it to English.

Our English versions are quite consistent overall. When DJ gets done with them you won't recognize them.

[Dave Jones]

Yes DJ, we are all so far below your level of understanding God.

Ducky, just give your definition of God. Can't be that hard.

It doesn't make me any smarter than you.

[Jacob T]

I am just really amazed that no one here can define the word God?

They have repeatedly, Jesus is simply not included in your TERM GOD
Its just as you said this is all about defining terms. Yours disagrees with everyone on this thread.
Make no mistake that piece of paper on your wall doesent say your right it says you know Greek. It also means someone graded your home work. Does your interpretation agree with your teachers? Maybe, maybe not, now that you have a degree and passed the test you can openly disagree about Greek with anyone. We practice that right as well. After reading and study we disagree with your degree.

[Dave Jones]

I am not taking dj's side; I know Jesus IS God but Scripture was originally written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. The re-writing was translating it to English.

Tom, perhaps you would be so kind as to define what you mean when you say "Jesus is God".

Please define your understanding of the English word God?

They have repeatedly,

Where? I don't remember anyone defining what they meant by "God"?

Just those saying that the don't have to????

Do you really know what the English word God means?

Edited by Dave Jones, 01 March 2011 - 07:24 PM.