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Coping with unsaved loved ones.

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27 replies to this topic

#1
prism

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I find coping with loved ones who remain unsaved one of the most difficult trials. Very little seems addressed to this matter. I have had a step father step into eternity without Christ. I have a daughter (who was home-schooled but now is into Wicca) and a son (who was from a previous and never get to see) who has gone his own way and a father (atheist) who is near death.
It is very very difficult trying to understand 'Why God' when it comes to this matter and leaves me in a near continual state of underlying sorrow. Any suggestions?
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Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem.

#2
FHII

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No prism.... I don't have any suggestions. I however, feel your pain. I have loved ones who have walked away from God. It does hurt. It hurts real bad at times!
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#3
BiggAndyy

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We are told to train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it. That verse says nothing about all the years in the middle between youth and old age.

We can easily gain knowledge, wisdom comes with pain, disappointment, disillusionment, sin, and heartache... and that is for the parent! I am young enough to remember my foolish youth, and old enough to recognize it as foolish.

Mark Twain said it best, "Youth is wasted on the young."

Keep a strong heart, keep a bended knee, and keep a cheerful hope. Some will perish in their sin, some will embrace the faith. The problem is, we don't know if it is our prayer that makes the difference or not in that person getting that one last chance at salvation, so keep praying.
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#4
Redeemed86

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I have several family members in a similar situation. Of course, none are unbelievers, but live in a way that you'd never know it.

What I do is ask God to give me an increase in his virtues, so that they can't help but wonder where it comes from. I ask him to make me invisible so his light will shine through and be bright enough to awaken them from death (sin) back into life. I also ask to make me a seed bearer and give me words to say that will adhere to their minds and plant itself in their memory.

Where they lack, I ask that God to add it to me, so that it will draw them, and I can give witness.

I also pray into their current lives each night. On more than one occasion I have gotten a confirmation from God, through another family member, that my prayer was not only heard, but answered. Prayer from a genuine heart is powerful.
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1 Peter 5:10 "And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast."

#5
aspen

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God is sovereign.
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St. John says, "The light shineth in the darkness, and the darkness apprehended it not;" that is, the self-hood in its own will and working, cannot apprehend it; but in resignation the liberty of God shines in it. - Jakob Boehme

#6
logabe

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I find coping with loved ones who remain unsaved one of the most difficult trials. Very little seems addressed to this matter. I have had a step father step into eternity without Christ. I have a daughter (who was home-schooled but now is into Wicca) and a son (who was from a previous and never get to see) who has gone his own way and a father (atheist) who is near death.
It is very very difficult trying to understand 'Why God' when it comes to this matter and leaves me in a near continual state of underlying sorrow.

Any suggestions?




Prism, that is a very good question and it's hard to answer if you haven't been
exposed to the mercy of God. I don't mean surface mercy, but I'm talking about
divine mercy.

When we grow in grace and in the knowledge of Jesus Christ, we begin to see
God as he really is and not by something you have heard about him. God is a
Spirit and that simply means if you and I don't take the opportunity to press into
the Spirit, we probably want know him intimately in this life.

I said that to say this, you and I could accept things said on the surface and we
could go on for years believing something that has been passed down for
hundreds of years that is just not the truth about God. This is a question that
could qualify as a surface question.

David said in the book of Psalms that we need to come and reason together. In
other words, we need to talk about certain things that just don't sound like God
would do. It' s not his character and we might need to put some quality time into
discussing it a bit more.

Christians have been told if you reject Jesus Christ in this life there is no more
hope for you. I beg to differ. I hope all my friends and family would come to
Christ but that's not in the plan in this age. When we begin to understand his
plan it brings peace in our present life and we can treat everyone with love and
respect knowing that God has a plan for them also.

What is that plan? Paul said in 1st Corinthians 15:22,

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made
alive.

So what is Paul telling us exactly? We have to go to verse 23 to see the fulness
of what Paul has just told us.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ's the first fruits; after
they that are Christ's at his coming.

Notice Paul is letting us know everyone is not coming at the same time but there
is an order in which to come. You might say, that still doesn't give us the fate of
our unbelieving family and friends. Well, let's keep reading.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the
kingdom of God, even the Father; when he shall have put down
all rule and all authority and power.

Notice the bondage that these unbelievers are in is the rule and authority the
nations have over the people. It will collapse in the end and it will free the people
that have been in bondage to it's influences for thousands of years. Listen to this
scripture and see if it makes sense, Romans 8:21,

21 For the creation itself shall be delivered from the bondage of
corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

God will establish his kingdom upon this earth in it's fulness one day, and that is
his plan. His plan will effect believers and unbelievers alike and God will become
irresistible even to the unbeliever. They will be so impressed with God's way that
they will become believers once they see the character and nature of the God of
the universe. They will say in that day... Isa. 2:3,

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the
mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach
us his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth
the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

This is the people that we are talking about, our friends and family that haven't accepted
Jesus but in the future God has a plan for them also. Would I rather them accept Christ
now. Absolutely, but I know that isn't the plan of God so I will treat them as if they already
know Christ because in that day they will accept him,

You see, the blood of Jesus never loses it's saving power and they will remember and
turn unto the Lord. The unbelievers have just forgotten where they came from for a season.
The day is coming when they will see the Lord high and lifted up, so let's treat them with
LOVE and respect knowing that they will come home. Ps. 22:27 says,

27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord:
and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

What a God and what a Plan!

Logabe
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#7
prism

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Logabe,

I will have to take a moment from my mourning to address your post. Though I appreciated the other posts I can't let yours pass carte blanche. Your explanation makes the death of Jesus unnecessary and as such is an affront to the Faith. He suffered the pangs of hell on the cross that we need not have to, but the promise is only for those who have embraced Him and His Work of redemption for them.
If all ends up 'ok' as I read your post (and only offers a false peace for the grief I feel), how do you explain Scriptures such as ....

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:11-15) ?
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Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem.

#8
Selene

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I find coping with loved ones who remain unsaved one of the most difficult trials. Very little seems addressed to this matter. I have had a step father step into eternity without Christ. I have a daughter (who was home-schooled but now is into Wicca) and a son (who was from a previous and never get to see) who has gone his own way and a father (atheist) who is near death.
It is very very difficult trying to understand 'Why God' when it comes to this matter and leaves me in a near continual state of underlying sorrow. Any suggestions?


Just pray for them and pray for God's mercy on them because God is the only one who will judge who is saved and who is not. We cannot make those judgements. Only God will decide.
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#9
Prentis

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Just pray for them and pray for God's mercy on them because God is the only one who will judge who is saved and who is not. We cannot make those judgements. Only God will decide.


Well said! :)

I think the very fact we say 'the unsaved' shows that we think salvation is somehow owned. We are saved, they are unsaved. But salvation is God's! We are to be obedient and faithful servants and leave matters of eternal judgment to him.
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But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Cor. 3:18)

Earnestly contending for the faith which was once for all delivered unto the saints

#10
informer

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There is a reason why God´s Word tells us that every man shall bear his own burden, because we all shall either carry our own load, or we will refuse to. We can only hope and wish with God that none should perish, but that all would rather [choose to] come to repentance, which is voluntary, which also is required of the Lord. It is a matter who is actually sincere toward God, and who is not.
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And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
Acts 28:24

#11
prism

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Informer,
I like your first part, "God´s Word tells us that every man shall bear his own burden,"...that's food for thought.
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Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem.

#12
HammerStone

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Your post made me think of this verse in the parable of the seeds:

Luke 8:15
As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.

Keep in mind that this is speaking about the good soil. Even the "easy stuff" will require patience. God is a very patient God with us. Jesus was extremely patient in his time on Earth when dealing withe Pharisees and while waiting for his coming death in the Garden at Gethsemane. In II Peter 3, it talks about God being longsuffering in one translation, saying that he does not will any to perish.

Jesus has been very patient with this one (speaking of myself), and chances are he's had his patience tried by each one of us here on more than one occasion. Some of our conversion stories are amazing, but they entail many years of ignorance, waywardness, or downright stupidity. Think about Peter denying him (Jesus) three times when he's right there! What about Paul who killed Christians simply because they were Christians?

The patience threshold has been set very high. A lot of Christians - and perfectly decent Christians - are apt to throw out the pearls before swine and other references. In reality, we very rarely walk up to someone, strike up a quick conversation about Jesus and introduce a new convert moments later. Sometimes it takes a lifetime. We could all do a little better and realize that from the divine perspective that it might very well take that lifetime. That's why Paul (and Jesus) so often likened our faith to seeds and plants. They take time to produce results.

We're stuck in a world with a lot of lost people. It's often made much harder when they are our family and friends. Take comfort in the fact that they have someone concerned for them in their lives. Paul references running a race on several occasions, and that's what this battle is. It's more akin to a marathon because, as the song puts it, these things take time.
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I Peter 3:15
...but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,...

Graced.Me | To Live A Better Life | Simple thoughts, musings, and illustrations of Jesus.

#13
logabe

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Logabe,

I will have to take a moment from my mourning to address your post. Though I appreciated the other posts I can't let yours pass carte blanche. Your explanation makes the death of Jesus unnecessary and as such is an affront to the Faith. He suffered the pangs of hell on the cross that we need not have to, but the promise is only for those who have embraced Him and His Work of redemption for them.
If all ends up 'ok' as I read your post (and only offers a false peace for the grief I feel), how do you explain Scriptures such as ....

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:11-15) ?



Where do I start…? I guess I will explain to the best of my ability about the
progression of the Kingdom of God. Most people and Christians alike, are
stuck in this age and most believe that if you die not believing that Jesus is
the Christ, your fate is ultimately doomed for eternity. Like I said in the last
post, I beg to differ.

To understand the Plan of God, you must first receive revelation from the
scriptures. We must understand the Word by the Spirit and not by Word
alone. Let me try to explain.

God gave Moses three signs while he was at the burning bush. They are
recorded in Exodus 4. They are:

The sign of the law and the cross

The sign of resurrection

The sign of blood

These three signs prophesied the manner in which the people would
come to believe in the true God. If they did not believe the first sign,
they would believe the second. If they did not believe the second, they
would believe the third. But in the end, all would believe.

Exodus 4:1-5 gives us the first sign.

1 Then Moses answered and said, “What if they will not
believe me, or listen to what I say? For they may say, ‘The
Lord has not appeared to you'.”
2 And the Lord said to him, “What is that in your hand?”
And he said, “a staff.”
3 Then He said, “Throw it on the ground.” So he threw it
on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled
from it.
4 But the Lord said to Moses, “Stretch out your hand and
grasp it by its tail”—so he stretched out his hand and
caught it, and it became a staff in his hand—
5 “that they may believe that the Lord, the God of their
fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the
God of Jacob, has appeared to you.”

Moses' rod was a staff of authority. Authority has the force of law, for that
which a person decrees by authority carries the force of law to those that it
affects. And so, Moses' staff first represents divine authority and the law
that proceeds from it.

Secondly, Moses' staff was made of wood, and in that sense, it represents
the cross. This can be seen when we understand that Jesus died on the
cross in order to pay the penalty for sin that was incurred under the law.
So there is a close link between the law and the cross.

When God revealed this sign to Moses, He told Moses to throw his staff
to the ground. Why not implant it in the ground so as to represent the
cross? Because this is about the people believing the word of the cross,
not the cross in and of itself.

To throw the staff to the ground is to turn the law into a “serpent.” To
reject the word of the Lord is to bring correction so that we are not
blessed and confirmed in our rebellion. This correction is part of the
"curse” of the law. It is ultimately a blessing, but it appears as a curse
to those who are being corrected.

The same law that brings blessings for obedience also brings curses
for disobedience. In other words, Moses' staff can either be a serpent
or an aid in our walk.

When the staff becomes a serpent, the solution is to reach out and
pick it up by the tail. Pick up the law and use it lawfully. To pick up the
serpent by the tail is to stop running in fear from the curses of the law
and deal with it.

Insofar as the cross is concerned, there are many who reject the cross
for various reasons. Some reject it because it represents the law, which
they also reject. Others simply do not recognize Moses' authority, or
they do not see that sin is really such a bad thing. They do not see the
seriousness of sin. But Jesus' death on the cross shows us just how
seriously God takes sin.

This first sign was illustrated in the experience of Israel in the
wilderness. In Numbers 21, the people began to complain and rebel.
The Lord then sent “fiery serpents” (Num. 21:6) to judge them. Many
died.

When the people repented of disobedience, the Lord said in verse 8,

8 ... Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard;
and it shall come about that everyone who is bitten,
when he looks at it, he shall live.

This became a type of the cross, and Jesus became a type of the
serpent in the wilderness. John 3:14, 15 says,

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the
wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be
lifted up;
15 that whoever believes in Him may have
eternal life.

The fiery serpents represent the judgment of the law upon the
disobedient, including the unbelieving believers in the Church in
the wilderness. They had cast down the law and rejected the
authority and word of Moses. Thus, the law became a serpent to
them.

The solution was to SEE the serpent. When they looked upon the
bronze serpent on the pole, they lived. Likewise, Jesus took upon
Himself the judgment of the law and became a serpent in the eyes
of the people, so that whoever sees Him and the penalty for sin may
also live.

This story in Numbers 21 shows us the connection between the serpent,
the law, and the cross. John then shows us the fulfillment in Jesus' death
on the cross.

Whatever reason people give for not believing the word of God or
submitting to the authority of the messenger carrying the message, part
of the revelation given to Moses was that not everyone would recognize
the first sign. And indeed, there are many today who do not believe either
Moses or Jesus. Thus, they must be given a second sign by which they
might believe.

To be continued:


Logabe
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#14
logabe

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Let’s continue on the second sign that God gave to Moses. The purpose of
understanding these signs are to see that God will ultimately bring everyone
back into the fold. Jesus will leave the 99 and go get the ONE that can’t seem
to find her way back.

Exodus 4:6-8 gives us the second sign.

6 And the Lord furthermore said to him, “Now put your hand
into your bosom.” So he put his hand into his bosom, and
when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous like snow.
7 Then He said, “Put your hand into your bosom again.” So he
put his hand into his bosom again; and when he took it out of
his bosom, behold, it was restored like the rest of his flesh.
8 “And it shall come about that if they will not believe you or
heed the witness of the first sign, they may believe the witness
of the last sign.”

Leprosy is a symbol of death (mortality) in the Bible, because it was a disease
in which people died a slow death. Some have said that leprosy is a symbol of
sin, but that is not precisely the case. When the mortality was translated into
action (Moses hand), then and only then did it represent sin. Sin is the action
that proceeds from death in one's heart.

We sin because we are mortal. Mortality is the “disease” or weakness on
which we sin. We read in Rom. 5:12,

12 Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into
the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed
through into all mankind, on which all sinned.

Paul tells us here that sin entered the world through Adam's sin, and that His
sin was imputed to all of us, making us all liable for his sin. Therefore, the penalty
for his sin was passed down to all of us, and that penalty is death, or mortality.

To put it in more formal terms, Adam's sin was imputed to us; but death was
infused into us. Thus, we do not have a sinful soul that dies; we have a mortal
soul that sins. And then, as a result, the wages of our own personal sin is the
second death, for we are judged by our works.

The law of lepers in Leviticus 14 provides us with the explanation of this second
sign given to Moses. No doubt when the revelation first came, Moses did not
understand its meaning. But later, when he was given this law, surely he
remembered that frightening experience when he saw his own hand leprous.

The leprosy is associated with the heart, for Moses' hand did not become leprous
until he had put it into his bosom. His heart was in the condition that was passed
down to him from Adam. His heart was death-ridden, mortal, or leprous. It
translated into action—his hand—as sin.

God was showing Moses the condition of all mankind.

In the law of lepers in Leviticus 14, we find the basic principles by which we are
able to overcome death and come into immortality. If a leper is healed of leprosy,
he was to show himself to the priest for inspection—that is, a double witness on
earth. The purpose of this double witness was to confirm his healing so that he
could become part of the congregation (Church) on a fellowship level.

It required two birds, usually doves, to cleanse lepers. The first one was killed in
an earthen vessel. The second dove was dipped (smeared) in the blood of the
first one and let loose into the open field. See Lev. 14:1-7.

The leper himself was to be baptized seven times with water, as we read in
verse 7,

7 He shall then sprinkle seven times the one who is to be
cleansed from the leprosy, and shall pronounce him clean,
and shall let the live bird go free over the open field.

We are given only one actual illustration of this law in the Old Testament. It is
the story of Naaman the Syrian general, who was a leper. He came to the
prophet for healing, and the prophet told him to follow the law by being
sprinkled seven times with water from the Jordan river (2 Kings 5:10).

Naaman was angry at first, but when he complied, he was healed (5:14).

We find people being healed of leprosy in the New Testament as well. In
Matthew 8:3, Jesus healed a leper. Jesus then told him in verse 4 to comply
with the law,

4 And Jesus said to him, “See that you tell no one;
but go, show yourself to the priest, and present the
offering [the two birds] that Moses commanded, for
a testimony [witness] to them.”

Also, keep in mind that the priest would not have presumed to baptize them
or to pronounce them clean unless God had already healed them of leprosy.
That was the purpose of the inspection. This was the rule so that the priest
did not baptize or pronounce anyone clean unless God had already healed
him.

In regard to the second sign given to Moses, we find that Moses was told to
put his leprous hand back into his bosom. When he withdrew it, he found that
it was whole again. What does this mean? It is a sign of resurrection, passing
from death into life.

It comes in two forms or phases: the first is when God imputes life to us, even
as He imputes righteousness to us. Imputation is defined in Romans 4:17,
calling those things which are not as though they were.

In other words, God calls sinners righteous, and He calls mortal ones immortal.
He calls what is NOT as though they were. This establishes our legal standing
before God as righteous and immortal, even though we continue to sin, to
sicken, to age, and to die.

The second phase is where the legal standing becomes fully appropriated into
actual experience. This is the point where actual resurrection from the dead
takes place, and where corruption puts on incorruption (1 Cor. 15:53).

And so, if the people do not believe the first sign, which was given to mankind
at the cross, they may believe at the time of the second sign—the resurrection
of the dead. In that day, the overcomers will be raised incorruptible and
immortal. The work of evangelism will take a quantum leap, as these overcomers
bear witness of the Word to all parts of the earth. Romans 8:19,

19 For the earnest expectation of the CREATION waiteth
for the manifestation of the sons of God.

In that day, the Word will go forth from the new Mount Zion and from the New
Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:3; Heb. 12:22). Representatives of all nations will come to
learn of His ways, and the kingdoms of this world will become the Kingdom of
our Lord and of His Christ (Rev. 11:15). The great Stone Kingdom will grow until
it becomes a great mountain and fills the whole earth (Dan. 2:35).

In that day, many will believe this second sign that was given to Moses. Though
most of the people did not believe the first sign, they will believe the second.
But this is not all, for many throughout history have lived and died without ever
hearing of Jesus Christ or having opportunity to believe either sign. Is there no
sign for them? Yes, that is the third sign given to Moses.

Wow, you have to admit we have an awesome God!

To be continued:




Logabe

Edited by logabe, 01 January 2012 - 11:04 AM.

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#15
Angelina

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Just keep praying Prism...nothing is impossible to God...I have seen miracles happen through prayer.

Blessings!
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1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

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#16
veteran

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It's better to have taught our children God's Ways when young so that if... they do stray when they get on their own we at least know it wasn't because of a lack of our teaching them the right way.

I strayed from Christ when I got out on my own, yet I was never baptized when young. I came to Christ Jesus later in my life and was baptized in Him by an ordained evangelist. I never not believed in God and Jesus, having been raised in the Church, but I didn't really belong to Him yet.

Once I did come to Christ Jesus and was baptized in Him, He hit me with the greatest urge I've ever had to study His Word, an urge I'd never had before. Then... a lot of experiences I'd had while being on my own He revealed to me some of their purpose. If I hadn't gone through those times on my own I would not have had those 'lessons-learned' as a comparison.

While I was studying about the ten lost tribes subject, The Holy Spirit made me recall places overseas I'd been that involved archaeological evidence for their scattering and migrations into Europe. By that I knew some experiences and travels I had may have had a deeper purpose unknown until later in my life.

So if our children that are still young today and on their own in the world, having fallen away somewhat, the question that faces me is, do they have enough time to return... to Christ Jesus since His coming is so close today? All we can do is pray for them and have Faith that He will protect them on their journey, and ask Him to bring them back into His fold before it's too late.
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#17
aspen

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It's better to have taught our children God's Ways when young so that if... they do stray when they get on their own we at least know it wasn't because of a lack of our teaching them the right way.

I strayed from Christ when I got out on my own, yet I was never baptized when young. I came to Christ Jesus later in my life and was baptized in Him by an ordained evangelist. I never not believed in God and Jesus, having been raised in the Church, but I didn't really belong to Him yet.

Once I did come to Christ Jesus and was baptized in Him, He hit me with the greatest urge I've ever had to study His Word, an urge I'd never had before. Then... a lot of experiences I'd had while being on my own He revealed to me some of their purpose. If I hadn't gone through those times on my own I would not have had those 'lessons-learned' as a comparison.

While I was studying about the ten lost tribes subject, The Holy Spirit made me recall places overseas I'd been that involved archaeological evidence for their scattering and migrations into Europe. By that I knew some experiences and travels I had may have had a deeper purpose unknown until later in my life.

So if our children that are still young today and on their own in the world, having fallen away somewhat, the question that faces me is, do they have enough time to return... to Christ Jesus since His coming is so close today? All we can do is pray for them and have Faith that He will protect them on their journey, and ask Him to bring them back into His fold before it's too late.


Nice 'should have done differently' post. Nothing like making a concern into a cautionary tale......
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St. John says, "The light shineth in the darkness, and the darkness apprehended it not;" that is, the self-hood in its own will and working, cannot apprehend it; but in resignation the liberty of God shines in it. - Jakob Boehme

#18
veteran

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Nice 'should have done differently' post. Nothing like making a concern into a cautionary tale......


Not really a cautionary tale, but reality. Apostle Paul was one such example who was deceived and persecuting Christ's Church until it was time for Christ to turn him. I have seen many, many people following the world that appeared irrevocably lost, and then miraculous events happened in their lives turning them to Christ Jesus in sincerity. I have taught some The Gospel and verified their understanding in It and prayed for their understanding, only to discover a week later what they understood about It had been removed out of their minds. More of a lesson to me than for them, in that God must... call the believer and open their eyes, and that everyone has a time to hear and understand His Truth. That's why those of us whom He has already called and we have believed should thank Him daily for it.

Moreover, in this present world is not everyone's time... to hear with eyes to see, and ears to hear. This is why our Lord Jesus responded in Matt.13 that the mysteries of the kingdom were given to His Apostles, but to others it... was... not... given...

Matt 13:11
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
(KJV)


Christ's future "thousand years" reign is going to correct that. That's when many will have their first time to see and hear fully with understanding, and be held fully accountable.

Edited by veteran, 01 January 2012 - 07:55 PM.

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#19
aspen

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Not really a cautionary tale, but reality. Apostle Paul was one such example who was deceived and persecuting Christ's Church until it was time for Christ to turn him. I have seen many, many people following the world that appeared irrevocably lost, and then miraculous events happened in their lives turning them to Christ Jesus in sincerity. I have taught some The Gospel and verified their understanding in It and prayed for their understanding, only to discover a week later what they understood about It had been removed out of their minds. More of a lesson to me than for them, in that God must... call the believer and open their eyes, and that everyone has a time to hear and understand His Truth. That's why those of us whom He has already called and we have believed should thank Him daily for it.

Moreover, in this present world is not everyone's time... to hear with eyes to see, and ears to hear. This is why our Lord Jesus responded in Matt.13 that the mysteries of the kingdom were given to His Apostles, but to others it... was... not... given...

Matt 13:11
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
(KJV)


Christ's future "thousand years" reign is going to correct that. That's when many will have their first time to see and hear fully with understanding, and be held fully accountable.


You might work on some empathy, Veteran

Start off slowly with perspective taking skills......
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St. John says, "The light shineth in the darkness, and the darkness apprehended it not;" that is, the self-hood in its own will and working, cannot apprehend it; but in resignation the liberty of God shines in it. - Jakob Boehme

#20
logabe

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Let’s talk about the third and final sign which was given to Moses
in Exodus 4:9,

9 But it shall be that if they will not believe even
these two signs or heed what you say, then you
shall take some water from the Nile and pour it
on the dry ground; and the water which you take
from the Nile will become blood on the dry ground.

In the actual outworking of this sign in the days of Moses, he turned
all the water of Egypt into blood. This was, of course, a judgment of
the law upon Egypt, and the Egyptians saw this as a disaster. But
nonetheless, it was a positive sign, for it signified the blood of Christ
covering the land of Egypt.

Egypt represents the world, and the blood throughout the land of
Egypt represents the blood of Christ. It is true, of course, that it was
a mixed blessing. It prophesied of the ultimate salvation of the world,
but yet this salvation came only through the judgment of the law.

The law is corrective, and is therefore a blessing, even if it appears to
be painful to those being corrected.

When we study the way in which God is reconciling the world to Himself
( 2nd Corinthians 5:19 ) , we see how these three signs of Moses coincide
with the three “squadrons” that Paul mentioned in 1 Cor. 15:22-25,

22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be
made alive.
23 But each in his own order [tagma, “squadron”]; (1)
the anointed first fruits; (2) after that those who are
Christ's at His coming,
24 then comes the end when He delivers up the
Kingdom to the God and Father, when He has
abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all enemies
under His feet.

The first group is the anointed first fruits, because they are the barley
company, the first of the first fruits, who are presented to God. This is
typified by the wave-sheaf offering on the first Sunday after Passover
(what most people know as Easter). The barley first fruits were to be
anointed with oil (Lev. 23:13).

Afterward, “those who are Christ's” are next in line to be made alive,
or immortal, in the second resurrection. This is the general resurrection
of the dead which Jesus talked about in John 5:28, 29,

28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming in
which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice
29 and come forth; those who did the good deeds
to a resurrection of life, those who committed the
evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

This is a resurrection that includes both believers and unbelievers, “all
who are in the tombs.” This is obviously not the first resurrection of Rev.
20:4-6, which is limited to only a few—the overcomers. Verse 5 says,

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until
the thousand years were completed. This is the
first resurrection.

And so from this we see that there will be believers in the general
resurrection at the end of the thousand years. In other words, not all
believers will be raised in the first resurrection. Whoever is NOT raised
in the first resurrection, whether they are believers or unbelievers, will
be raised at the Great White Throne judgment. The believers will be
saved yet so as through fire” (1 Cor. 3:15), facing whatever minor
judgments are deemed appropriate, as Jesus described in Luke 12:47-49.

The unbelievers, however, who are the main focus of the third sign of
Moses, will be given the sign of blood that will turn their hearts to God,
so that they may be saved in the great Creation Jubilee at the end of
time ( Romans 8:21).

Perhaps the main thing that characterizes this third sign of Moses is the
fact that the Egyptian unbelievers were forced to drink blood or die of
thirst. In an Old Testament context, this sign is quite negative. But what
is negative in the Old Testament is positive in the New. It was against
the law to drink blood (Lev. 17:10-14; Acts 21:25), because blood was to
be used as atonement for our souls. But yet in John 6:53 Jesus says,

53 ... Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the
flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you
have no life in yourselves.
54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has
eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

In that day, all will eat His flesh and drink His blood, for that is the third
sign of Moses for all ex-unbelievers. They will do this, because there will
be no other “water.”

Someone will ask, “Will God save men eventually against their will?” The
answer is no! He will have no need to do that, for all Men will be one
hundred percent willing when God reveals Himself to them. Isaiah 35:5
says,

5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened and
the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.

What a God and what a plan!


Logabe

Edited by logabe, 01 January 2012 - 11:29 PM.

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#21
BiggAndyy

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Load-of-bee, if you are going to do scripture blizzards please don't do it in

GIANT TYPE FACE.

It is very annoying and makes if very hard to stay interested in a thread where you post.

Please don't be a thread killer, no giant type faces.
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#22
veteran

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When we study the way in which God is reconciling the world to Himself
( 2nd Corinthians 5:19 ) , we see how these three signs of Moses coincide
with the three “squadrons” that Paul mentioned in 1 Cor. 15:22-25,

22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be
made alive.
23 But each in his own order [tagma, “squadron”]; (1)
the anointed first fruits; (2) after that those who are
Christ's at His coming,
24 then comes the end when He delivers up the
Kingdom to the God and Father, when He has
abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all enemies
under His feet.

The first group is the anointed first fruits, because they are the barley
company, the first of the first fruits, who are presented to God. This is
typified by the wave-sheaf offering on the first Sunday after Passover
(what most people know as Easter). The barley first fruits were to be
anointed with oil (Lev. 23:13).

Afterward, “those who are Christ's” are next in line to be made alive,
or immortal, in the second resurrection. This is the general resurrection
of the dead which Jesus talked about in John 5:28, 29,

28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming in
which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice
29 and come forth; those who did the good deeds
to a resurrection of life, those who committed the
evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

This is a resurrection that includes both believers and unbelievers, “all
who are in the tombs.” This is obviously not the first resurrection of Rev.
20:4-6, ....



Those of the "resurrection of life" in the John 5:28-29 ARE the "first resurrection" of Rev.20.

Those are resurrected specifically AT Christ's second coming per the John 5:28-29 Scripture.


1 Cor 15:23
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.
(KJV)

Strike out the "the" and "are" for they were added words by the KJV translators to help convey the Greek, per their views.

The firstfruits represent the whole... faithful Church of the "first resurrection" that will reign with Christ Jesus. That's both OT and NT saints together that now sleep in Jesus. Per 1 Thess.4, they along with Christ's saints today will be joined together at His second coming, which is that "hour" of John 5:28-29 when those in the graves will hear His voice and come forth unto the "resurrection of life".

So what are the firstfruits really about? About the whole Church, joined at Christ's coming.
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#23
sdcougar

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I find coping with loved ones who remain unsaved one of the most difficult trials. Very little seems addressed to this matter. I have had a step father step into eternity without Christ. I have a daughter (who was home-schooled but now is into Wicca) and a son (who was from a previous and never get to see) who has gone his own way and a father (atheist) who is near death.
It is very very difficult trying to understand 'Why God' when it comes to this matter and leaves me in a near continual state of underlying sorrow. Any suggestions?


As others have said, we keep praying and hoping in God.

It is perhaps hardest to witness or know how to go abouit it with those who are close. If we "push" it, they will avoid us. But we still need to look for faithful and creative ways to share the Message.

A friend of mine, whose mother is an unbeliever (and with whom he has had no 'open doors' to sharing the Gospel) sent me this note, yesterday. [I had sent her a copy of [i]Oh Holy Night: The Peace of 1914[/i] just before Christmas]:

"Just thought I'd share with you that my mom called me tonight and told me that she is in the middle of reading your book. She is really enjoying it, and wanted to send you a thank you note, ...we did have a wonderful discussion about that incident in 1914. Thanks. I really appreciate this, and I know she does too."

He did not asked me to do this. And if he had, maybe it would have 'put her off.' I just did it for a friend. More of us have to take intitiative in cases like this and pray for God's guidance, open doors, and ways to creatively share the Good News.

And as for this friend's mother who is half way through this short book [whom I have never met], this is what she will read at the end of the book::

...This is the peace of which the shepherds heard.
“Glory to God in the highest and on earth, peace,
goodwill toward men.”
“Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace
with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
This peace offer still stands today. In the final invitation
of the New Testament, it is offered to all:
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these
things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring
of David, and the bright and morning star.
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him
that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst
come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of
life freely.
… Everyone who hears this should say, “Come!” If
you are thirsty, come! If you want life-giving water,
come and take it. It's free!
… Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes,
let him take the free gift of the water of life.
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#24
logabe

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Those of the "resurrection of life" in the John 5:28-29 ARE the "first resurrection" of Rev.20.

Those are resurrected specifically AT Christ's second coming per the John 5:28-29 Scripture.


1 Cor 15:23
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.
(KJV)

Strike out the "the" and "are" for they were added words by the KJV translators to help convey the Greek, per their views.

The firstfruits represent the whole... faithful Church of the "first resurrection" that will reign with Christ Jesus. That's both OT and NT saints together that now sleep in Jesus. Per 1 Thess.4, they along with Christ's saints today will be joined together at His second coming, which is that "hour" of John 5:28-29 when those in the graves will hear His voice and come forth unto the "resurrection of life".

So what are the firstfruits really about? About the whole Church, joined at Christ's coming.




Let’s try to understand what the first fruits is all about by going back to the Law
and see exactly what Paul was talking about.

James 1:18 says,

18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word
of truth, so that we might be, as it were, the first fruits among
His creatures [“creation”].

In the book of Revelation, we are told of the 144,000 who sing a new song before
the throne of God. In Rev. 14:4 these are called “the first fruits unto God and to
the Lamb.” First fruits imply that a greater harvest is yet to come. Even as Jesus
was “the First fruits of them that slept” (1 Cor. 15:20), so also are the overcomers
of the first resurrection (the “144,000” of Rev. 14) the first fruits of others yet to
come. The first fruits offering always signaled the beginning (not the end) of the
harvest.

Paul alluded to the law of first fruits again in Rom. 11:16 (KJV), saying,

16 For if the first fruit be holy, the lump is also holy;
and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

The first fruits always sanctified the harvest. When the first fruits of a crop,
whether barley or wheat, were offered to God, then the people could go home
and harvest the rest of that crop. For this reason, James tells us that the Church
is the first fruits of creation. When the Church is “harvested” and brought into
God's house, it is not the end of the world, but the beginning of a greater harvest.


Likewise, the overcomers are the first fruits of the Church. They are the “first of
the first fruits” (Ex. 23:19), that is, the barley first fruits that were offered shortly
after the feast of Passover. These are the ones who inherit the first resurrection.
Rev. 20:6 says,

6 . . . they will be priests of God and of Christ and will
reign with Him for a thousand years.

The rest of the dead, both unbelievers and the rest of the believers, will not be raised
until the thousand years is finished. Then all of the dead, small and great, will be
raised. At that time, the non-overcoming believers will receive LIFE, while the
unbelievers will received JUDGMENT, as Jesus said in John 5:28, 29,

28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which
ALL who are in the tombs shall hear His voice,
29 and come forth; those who did the good deeds to a
resurrection of LIFE, those who committed the evil deeds
to a resurrection of JUDGMENT.

It is apparent from Jesus' statement that the resurrection at the Great White
Throne will include believers that will be given life, or immortality, as well as the
unbelievers that will be judged. This is why we ought to strive to attain “a better
resurrection” (Heb. 11:35). The first resurrection is the better resurrection. Those
who attain the better resurrection are those who will rule and reign with Christ
during the thousand years of the Tabernacles Age.



Logabe

Edited by logabe, 03 January 2012 - 11:35 AM.

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#25
Marta

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Prism, I know it sounds easy for me to say, but try your best not to worry at all. Pray, witness, plant seeds where and as you can, and let God handle the rest. Sometimes prayers like these are answered quickly, sometimes they take years. Sometimes they are answered without us ever knowing the result this side of eternity. Just rest in the Lord, Prism. Trust Him. I've suffered much agony over unsaved loved ones. It was often when I finally "let go and let God" that the blessed answer miraculously came. I stand with you in agreement over the salvation of your unsaved loved ones. Much love to you.

"Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it." I Thessalonians 5:24
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#26
sdcougar

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A big chunk of this thread belongs. in the Bible study forum where the heresies presented can be addressed without taking this thread completely off topic.
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#27
BiggAndyy

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+1
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#28
HollyRock

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Hi Prism, I can relate to your feelings about unsaved loved ones and would like to share with you a personal story...One day I was extremely worried about the state of my son's salvation or lack thereof, when the Lord spoke these words to my heart... "don't worry about your son because I can reach him at any moment that I choose" I can't tell you how much those words meant to me and I was able to release my son to God's perfect timing and plans for his life. It also helps us not to presume if a person went to Heaven or not because we cannot always know what discisions they may make before they leave us. I think we will be both surprised and relieved at who we will meet in Heaven. So, we continue to keep our loved ones in prayer, lead by example, and trust God to do the rest.

Edited by Hollyrock, 05 January 2012 - 04:15 PM.

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EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL CONFESS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD





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