67 replies to this topic

[The Crown of Life]

Born again can be understood on 2 levels.

Remember the story...a Christmas Carol?...the one where Scrooge changes into a "new" man. Scrooge repented and did what was right...this is what the OT is all about. salvation by doing what is right...righteousness. This recognizes the bad behavior and rectifies it by correcting those errors with good deeds.

Now many people would say that this is to be born again. There is an aspect of this that is true. the prodigal son came to his senses too and repented.

The other level of being born again, is the response of God.....the giving of a new life...the acceptance of the repentance and the response of the giving of the Holy Spirit.

So whereas the first level is on a righteousness level, the 2nd is on a holiness level...by grace. The first involves forgiveness, and the second involves empowering to be as Jesus in this world.


Both levels are necessary to fulfill the full plan of God (born from above). But even the first level will save you. God is merciful.

Now the full born again experience can only be maintained (at that level of intimacy with God) by forsaking all in order to retain the level of holiness required to cleave to God.

It reminds me of stories of privateers (pirates) who in order to outrun the navy ships sent out to arrest them, needed to throw everything overboard in order to be able to out sail their pursuers and get away. So the cannon (defenses) were heaved over the side...etc...

Unless we forsake ALL things we cannot remain long in the presence of the Lord. The world will catch up to us!!!!

Then we are only left with the humility of righteousness and the doing what is right in our own strength.

Of course if we pretend to be holy when we are not then we lose EVEN the benefits of a temporal righteousness.

[Episkopos]

Born again can be understood on 2 levels.

Remember the story...a Christmas Carol?...the one where Scrooge changes into a "new" man. Scrooge repented and did what was right...this is what the OT is all about. salvation by doing what is right...righteousness. This recognizes the bad behavior and rectifies it by correcting those errors with good deeds.

Now many people would say that this is to be born again. There is an aspect of this that is true. the prodigal son came to his senses too and repented.

The other level of being born again, is the response of God.....the giving of a new life...the acceptance of the repentance and the response of the giving of the Holy Spirit.

So whereas the first level is on a righteousness level, the 2nd is on a holiness level...by grace. The first involves forgiveness, and the second involves empowering to be as Jesus in this world.


Both levels are necessary to fulfill the full plan of God (born from above). But even the first level will save you. God is merciful.

Now the full born again experience can only be maintained (at that level of intimacy with God) by forsaking all in order to retain the level of holiness required to cleave to God.

It reminds me of stories of privateers (pirates) who in order to outrun the navy ships sent out to arrest them, needed to throw everything overboard in order to be able to out sail their pursuers and get away. So the cannon (defenses) were heaved over the side...etc...

Unless we forsake ALL things we cannot remain long in the presence of the Lord. The world will catch up to us!!!!

Then we are only left with the humility of righteousness and the doing what is right in our own strength.

Of course if we pretend to be holy when we are not then we lose EVEN the benefits of a temporal righteousness.

Hey.... I wrote this!!!!

Edited by Episkopos, 18 January 2012 - 05:48 PM.

[The Crown of Life]

Yes we know. We posted it so we could discuss it with you. We could never get connected with you where we 1st read it.

Everyone says they are born again. How would we know you are born again? What would be undeniable proof? We want to see if we can learn anything from your great expertise.

[Episkopos]

Yes we know. We posted it so we could discuss it with you. We could never get connected with you where we 1st read it.

Everyone says they are born again. How would we know you are born again? What would be undeniable proof? We want to see if we can learn anything from your great expertise.

OK..who's we?

[The Crown of Life]

OK..who's we?

My Friends and I. You aren't trying to get out of answering some questions and discussing your Statements of faith are you? If so, all you have to do is say you do not want to witness to us about Jesus. And we will not bother with you ever again.

[Episkopos]

My Friends and I. You aren't trying to get out of answering some questions and discussing your Statements of faith are you? If so, all you have to do is say you do not want to witness to us about Jesus. And we will not bother with you ever again.

Not at all! I was just wondering at the method.

What questions would you have so we can discuss this?

[The Crown of Life]

Not at all! I was just wondering at the method.

What questions would you have so we can discuss this?

We can start with the ones that we have already put forth to you.

I will see you tomorrow lord willing.

Everyone says they are born again. How would we know you are born again? What would be undeniable proof?

[Episkopos]

We can start with the ones that we have already put forth to you.

I will see you tomorrow lord willing.

Everyone says they are born again. How would we know you are born again? What would be undeniable proof?

In the OP it is stated that there is a big difference between someone who reforms their character for themselves and someone who is translated into the beloved.

Here are the things that I see demarcate between one who is reformed and one who is transformed.

Love. The 4th dimension is invisible to our eyes and it is made up of love. God dwells there. We abide in Christ there. That is why John says that if we don't love we don't know God. We are to love as Jesus loved from WHERE He is. This love is a supernatural one and is fearless. Perfect love (His love) casts out ALL fear (save the fear of the Lord). There is a boldness in this love so that the person who has been born in the Spirit wishes to proclaim to the world this great secret about God and the purpose of our being created. So I would say that the second indicator is a holy fearlessness towards men. The fear of God is so great that no other fear is possible. Thelove of God and fear of God are uniquely combined to form one attribute in the one who is born from above.

The Spiritual place called Zion is where we abide in Christ. One who is born again from above is born in Zion.

[The Crown of Life]

In the OP it is stated that there is a big difference between someone who reforms their character for themselves and someone who is translated into the beloved.

Here are the things that I see demarcate between one who is reformed and one who is transformed.

Love. The 4th dimension is invisible to our eyes and it is made up of love. God dwells there. We abide in Christ there. That is why John says that if we don't love we don't know God. We are to love as Jesus loved from WHERE He is. This love is a supernatural one and is fearless. Perfect love (His love) casts out ALL fear (save the fear of the Lord). There is a boldness in this love so that the person who has been born in the Spirit wishes to proclaim to the world this great secret about God and the purpose of our being created. So I would say that the second indicator is a holy fearlessness towards men. The fear of God is so great that no other fear is possible. Thelove of God and fear of God are uniquely combined to form one attribute in the one who is born from above.

The Spiritual place called Zion is where we abide in Christ. One who is born again from above is born in Zion.

The Book of John

Chapter 3

Verse 5

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Can you read all the post by each person that post on this web site or any web site and tell us which person is and which person is not born again?

Multiply choice..Choose 1.

A. Yes I can.

B. No I can not.

One is correct and one is incorrect.

Please no theories or commentaries on this question.

Just pick A. or B.

[Episkopos]

The Book of John

Chapter 3

Verse 5

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Can you read all the post by each person that post on this web site or any web site and tell us which person is and which person is not born again?

Multiply choice..Choose 1.

A. Yes I can.

B. No I can not.

One is correct and one is incorrect.

Please no theories or commentaries on this question.

Just pick A. or B.

It must be B.

[The Crown of Life]

It must be B.

How come?

[Episkopos]

How come?

One can only get to know someone through writing over a bit of time. Some will appear to be in Christ...but really aren't and some will not seem at first to be...but are. Judge nothing before the time.

[The Crown of Life]

One can only get to know someone through writing over a bit of time. Some will appear to be in Christ...but really aren't and some will not seem at first to be...but are. Judge nothing before the time.

Those who are born of the Spirit are lead by the Spirit of God and cannot be deceived by those not born of the Spirit.

Multiply choice..Choose 1.

A. True.

B. False.

One is correct and one is incorrect.

Please no theories or commentaries on this question.

Just pick A. or B.

[Episkopos]

Those who are born of the Spirit are lead by the Spirit of God and cannot be deceived by those not born of the Spirit.

Multiply choice..Choose 1.

A. True.

B. False.

One is correct and one is incorrect.

Please no theories or commentaries on this question.

Just pick A. or B.

A

[The Crown of Life]

How long ago was the last lie you told?

Were you born again when you told it?

Multiply choice..Choose 1.

A. Yes I was born again at that time.

B. No I was not born again at that time.

One is correct and one is incorrect.

Please no theories or commentaries on this question.

Just pick A. or B.

[The Crown of Life]

The Spirit of the Lord is leading me.

[Episkopos]

How long ago was the last lie you told?

Were you born again when you told it?

Multiply choice..Choose 1.

A. Yes I was born again at that time.

B. No I was not born again at that time.

One is correct and one is incorrect.

Please no theories or commentaries on this question.

Just pick A. or B.

B

[The Crown of Life]

Anyone that tells a lie is not born again.

Multiply choice..Choose 1.

A. True

B. False

One is correct and one is incorrect.

Please no theories or commentaries on this question.

Just pick A. or B.

[The Crown of Life]

Anyone that tells a lie is not born again.

Multiply choice..Choose 1.

A. True

B. False

One is correct and one is incorrect.

Please no theories or commentaries on this question.

Just pick A. or B.

Those who are born of the Spirit are lead by the Spirit of God and cannot be deceived by those not born of the Spirit,

would know the answer to this question.

Multiply choice..Choose 1.

A. True they would know the answer to this question.

B. No they would not know the answer to this question.

One is correct and one is incorrect.

Please no theories or commentaries on this question.

Just pick A. or B.

[Phillip]

In the OP it is stated that there is a big difference between someone who reforms their character for themselves and someone who is translated into the beloved.

Here are the things that I see demarcate between one who is reformed and one who is transformed.

Love. The 4th dimension is invisible to our eyes and it is made up of love. God dwells there. We abide in Christ there. That is why John says that if we don't love we don't know God. We are to love as Jesus loved from WHERE He is. This love is a supernatural one and is fearless. Perfect love (His love) casts out ALL fear (save the fear of the Lord). There is a boldness in this love so that the person who has been born in the Spirit wishes to proclaim to the world this great secret about God and the purpose of our being created. So I would say that the second indicator is a holy fearlessness towards men. The fear of God is so great that no other fear is possible. Thelove of God and fear of God are uniquely combined to form one attribute in the one who is born from above.

The Spiritual place called Zion is where we abide in Christ. One who is born again from above is born in Zion.

Nice post.

I would like to point out that the OP basically speaks of sanctification. The big thing about when I sanctify myself now in the New Everlasting Marriage Covenant in Christ's Blood, it includes being fully repentent and dead to myself, yet being alive because I am filled with the Holy Spirit of Christ in me. Him who is from Heaven Coming into me is His part of the sanctification process, that makes us holy and sinless. Something never able to be prior to Christ's resurrection, glorification and Coming as the Holy Spirit, Christ in our flesh.
I will be with you always even unto the ends of the world... I shall never leave nor forsake you. A New Creature we are, One with Christ as dead to this world and filled with Christ from Heaven, Born from Above.
He is Come

[The Crown of Life]

Nice post.

I would like to point out that the OP basically speaks of sanctification. The big thing about when I sanctify myself now in the New Everlasting Marriage Covenant in Christ's Blood, it includes being fully repentent and dead to myself, yet being alive because I am filled with the Holy Spirit of Christ in me. Him who is from Heaven Coming into me is His part of the sanctification process, that makes us holy and sinless. Something never able to be prior to Christ's resurrection, glorification and Coming as the Holy Spirit, Christ in our flesh.
I will be with you always even unto the ends of the world... I shall never leave nor forsake you. A New Creature we are, One with Christ as dead to this world and filled with Christ from Heaven, Born from Above.
He is Come

Let's ask the author of the opening post. Mr. Episkopos do you agree with Mr. Phillip's assessment of your theory on born again Christians?

Those who are born of the Spirit are lead by the Spirit of God and cannot be deceived by those not born of the Spirit,

would know the answer to this question.

Multiply choice..Choose 1.

A. True they would know the answer to this question.

B. No they would not know the answer to this question.

One is correct and one is incorrect.

Please no theories or commentaries on this question.

Just pick A. or B.

Mr. Episkopos in some cases silence is considered an admission of guilt.

Let's ask the author of the opening post. Mr. Episkopos do you agree with Mr. Phillip's assessment of your theory on born again Christians?



Mr. Episkopos in some cases silence is considered an admission of guilt.

I do believe this is one of them.

[Episkopos]

Nice post.

I would like to point out that the OP basically speaks of sanctification. The big thing about when I sanctify myself now in the New Everlasting Marriage Covenant in Christ's Blood, it includes being fully repentent and dead to myself, yet being alive because I am filled with the Holy Spirit of Christ in me. Him who is from Heaven Coming into me is His part of the sanctification process, that makes us holy and sinless. Something never able to be prior to Christ's resurrection, glorification and Coming as the Holy Spirit, Christ in our flesh.
I will be with you always even unto the ends of the world... I shall never leave nor forsake you. A New Creature we are, One with Christ as dead to this world and filled with Christ from Heaven, Born from Above.
He is Come

Amen!

[The Crown of Life]

Born again can be understood on 2 levels.

The carnal level.

The spirit level.

How can anyone understand at any level unless they are, what they are trying to understand?

When someone tells they are a born again Christian.

I think to myself, is there any unborn again Christians?

Can any of you correct my thinking?

[Sabitarian]

Watsoncarl53,
When I meet someone and they tell me they are born again I immediately shy away from them, as most of these are wolves in sheeps clothing. The biggest problems I had in my 33 years of steel fabricating came from born again Christians. One of them even had a Christian radio station on his hold button. When push came to shove he did what was right for his business and not what was right. They are so cought up in thier own selves they leave no room for any one else. I guess that is part of why I do not call myself a Christian as I have had soooo many bad experiences with them. The Book tells us that you must be born again of water and the Spirit. I went through the water, but the Spirit I really do not know.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High

[Lively Stone]

Watsoncarl53,
When I meet someone and they tell me they are born again I immediately shy away from them, as most of these are wolves in sheeps clothing. The biggest problems I had in my 33 years of steel fabricating came from born again Christians. One of them even had a Christian radio station on his hold button. When push came to shove he did what was right for his business and not what was right. They are so cought up in thier own selves they leave no room for any one else. I guess that is part of why I do not call myself a Christian as I have had soooo many bad experiences with them. The Book tells us that you must be born again of water and the Spirit. I went through the water, but the Spirit I really do not know.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High

When Jesus spoke about being born of water, He was referring to natural birth. If you are referring to a water baptism, no one is saved by being immersed in water. We are saved by our faith in Jesus Christ's sacrificial death, paying the price for our every sin, and resurrection, by the grace of God. that is when the Holy Spirit comes and makes His home inside of us.

If you ahve made a confession of faith in Jesus Christ, then the Holy Spirit has taken up residence in you and you would have experienced an unmistakeable regeneration of your mind and heart, taking on a whole new paradigm of thinking and seeing.


.

Edited by Lively Stone, 21 January 2012 - 04:04 PM.

[Episkopos]

Watsoncarl53,
When I meet someone and they tell me they are born again I immediately shy away from them, as most of these are wolves in sheeps clothing. The biggest problems I had in my 33 years of steel fabricating came from born again Christians. One of them even had a Christian radio station on his hold button. When push came to shove he did what was right for his business and not what was right. They are so cought up in thier own selves they leave no room for any one else. I guess that is part of why I do not call myself a Christian as I have had soooo many bad experiences with them. The Book tells us that you must be born again of water and the Spirit. I went through the water, but the Spirit I really do not know.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High

This is due to the salfish nature of the pop gospel being preached. It is a salvation scheme for the sin nature to feel safe in rather than a death and new life in Christ.

[Sabitarian]

Lively Stone,
Christ was baptized by John in the water as a sign to us that we needed to be baptized by immersion in order to have a chance at salvation. I really do not believe that birth could be accepted as being born of water.
Episkopos,
The Papal traditions are what make Babaylon fall in Revelation, as the Catholics had already fallen. This born again thing to most is a license to commit sin, without any though of punishment by the Creator, for their sins are covered by the blood of Christ, however this mentality is the fall of Christanity. James tells us that we will be judged by our works, so how is it that the blood of Christ can cover perpetual sins? Just as first day worship is not acceptable to God, for that is the biggest complaing He had with Israel. When they apostacised the first thing to go was the Sabbath, which lead to many other problems for them. They would start buying and selling on the Sabbath and that lead to even more apostacy.
I truely believe that this feel good religion is the down fall of civilization as we know it. And if they would just read the book of Revelation with a though to understand it, it is obvious that you are not suppose to have a buble gum religion, as He chastizes those who He accepts. Not the feel good or bubblegum religioners. If you do not receive chastizement you are not a son of God.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High

[The Crown of Life]

Watsoncarl53,
When I meet someone and they tell me they are born again I immediately shy away from them, as most of these are wolves in sheeps clothing. The biggest problems I had in my 33 years of steel fabricating came from born again Christians. One of them even had a Christian radio station on his hold button. When push came to shove he did what was right for his business and not what was right. They are so cought up in thier own selves they leave no room for any one else. I guess that is part of why I do not call myself a Christian as I have had soooo many bad experiences with them. The Book tells us that you must be born again of water and the Spirit. I went through the water, but the Spirit I really do not know.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High

Have you ever told anyone that you were "born again"?

Multiply choice..Choose 1.

A. Yes I have.

B. No I have not.

One is correct and one is incorrect.

Please no theories or commentaries on this question.

Just pick A. or B.

[Lively Stone]

Lively Stone,
Christ was baptized by John in the water as a sign to us that we needed to be baptized by immersion in order to have a chance at salvation. I really do not believe that birth could be accepted as being born of water.

Water baptism is reserved for only those who are believers already. It cannot save, nor is it a sign of a CHANCE at salvation!

When Jesus used the phrase, 'born of water', he was referring to naural birth. In His day, that is the way they spoke of childbirth.

[Phillip]

When Jesus spoke about being born of water, He was referring to natural birth. If you are referring to a water baptism, no one is saved by being immersed in water. We are saved by our faith in Jesus Christ's sacrificial death, paying the price for our every sin, and resurrection, by the grace of God. that is when the Holy Spirit comes and makes His home inside of us.

If you ahve made a confession of faith in Jesus Christ, then the Holy Spirit has taken up residence in you and you would have experienced an unmistakeable regeneration of your mind and heart, taking on a whole new paradigm of thinking and seeing.


.

"Born of water" is "natural birth? I never heard that idea before. What a gem hehe. Being born of water is absolutely scriptural though. That is baptism, which is the answer of a conscious in good faith

Here's some examples though, of the scriptural meaning of being "born of water". It is water baptism of course. Not "natural birth" lol.


Being born of water is being born of God. Just as Jesus was born of God at His Baptism, showing His birthing forth as the "First Begotten from the dead". It is identified with our death and resurrection in Christ.

(Act 13:33) God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

(Mat 3:14) But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
(Mat 3:15) And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
(Mat 3:16) And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
(Mat 3:17) And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

(Heb 10:22) Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

(Eph 5:26) That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

(Tit 3:5) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

(Joh 13:8) Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
(Joh 13:9) Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
(Joh 13:10) Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

(1Co 6:11) And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

(Act 8:36) And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
(Act 8:37) And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
(Act 8:38) And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Being "Born from above" is water baptism and baptism of the Holy Spirit, both. Our sanctification to the Lord, and His santification of His Holy Spirit self into us! The Water and the Spirit, all one in the cleansing Blood of Christ;

(1Jn 5:8) For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.