489 replies to this topic

[Shep]

Instead of bagging anothers church...maybe we should try to understand that church and not rely on heresay...seek out the truth, visit one a few times, try to understand we all worship the same God on here and try to show God's love toward another...being rude just makes another close off anything you have to say...We can all disagree on doctrine...we can all think we have all the answers...but guess what...we do not have the answers to all things, we are not God and we should not be judging our brother or sister on what church they want to worship in...I have been in Spirit filled Catholic churches and was stunned by the flow of the Spirit...No worship of Mary all the Glory was to the Lord...and I have been in some that were as dry as bones, not only Catholic but Baptist, Methodist as well...

I am not sure that this is true.
I don't worship a God that says we have to submit to a pope.
I don't worship a God that says that going to mass earns you salvation brownie points.
I don't worship a God that says I have to go to confession once a week.
I don't worship a God that says the priest has to be obeyed.
I don't worship a God that wants me to worship Mary.
I don't worship a God who calls Mary the queen of heaven.
I don't worship a God who says I have to pray to Mary.
I don't worship a God who says we get our salvation through Mary.
I don't worship a God that wants me to say the rosary.
I don't worship a God that winks at child abusing priests.
I don't worship a God who approves of graven images.
I don't worship a God who asks his priests to dress up like women.
I don't worship a God that who supports clergy that ignore scripture by being called father.
I don't worship a God that has purgatory on the calendar.
I don't worship a God that overseas a church which owns property worth billions.

As far as the heresay accusation, I worked in the catholic system for two years. I met lovely people and I met people particularly priests who thought they were God's gift to the church and had to be obeyed without question, and if you didn't, you either got overlooked for promotion or were sacked and thinking for yourself was considered a sin. One thing that did surprise me was that I have never met such foul mouthed people as some of the catholics that I worked with.

If people want to be involved with the RC church, be my guest, but I am not going to be told that what I believe is heresy if it differs with the RC church and I have to keep quiet because it might offend someoone's sensibilities.

I welcome any challenge to my faith because you don't know what you believe until you are challenged and have to give an account of your faith. If that is a problem to you, perhaps it would be better to stay out of the public arena.

This is what I am talking about, bagging a church that you have not spent time in, basing your past experinces with a few people you have met...and darling being rude to people telling them to stay out of the public arena is plain laughable...It is not a matter of offending others sensibilites, it is a matter of respecting others period..there are ways to have your say without being rude...use scripture...you know those things found in the Word of God, in a book called the Bible...that is the only Truth, that matters..not opinions of churches...God will bring His children out of churches He deems unworthy of the teaching the truth, so lets leave God to do His will, and try to teach others the truth from His Holy Word...that is how to bring people to the truth, not by making a list of everything that is wrong in a church...

[MonkeyMan]

This is what I am talking about, bagging a church that you have not spent time in, basing your past experinces with a few people you have met...and darling being rude to people telling them to stay out of the public arena...

Amen!

Steve

[marksman]

This is what I am talking about, bagging a church that you have not spent time in, basing your past experinces with a few people you have met...

Dear O me, lets try again. I SPENT TWO YEARS, NO THREE, WORKING IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC SYSTEM, therefore......I am not bagging a church I have not spent time in and basing my past experiences with a few people I met. I MET HUNDREDS OF THEM. There were nearly 200 in the section I worked in.

[MonkeyMan]

I am not bagging a church I have not spent time in and basing my past experiences with a few people I met.

I agree with you too. I get caught between the fine line of bagging and exposing... We are called to expose error, otherwise what is the point of light if it does not dispel the darkness. I find this line hard to balance.

God Bless
Steve

[HollyRock]

rosary beads...praying to mary..This is Dangerous Stuff...Run The Other Way !!!

I don't like what I wrote here...it is offensive...please forgive me

[marksman]

I don't like what I wrote here...it is offensive...please forgive me

The truth is ALWAYS offensive to someone. As Winston Churchill said " Do you have enemies? Good, that means you are doing something right."

[HollyRock]

The truth is ALWAYS offensive to someone. As Winston Churchill said " Do you have enemies? Good, that means you are doing something right."

With all due respect to the late great Winston Churchill, I want any truth that I speak to be spoken in love...period

[MR ROSENBERGER]

The truth is ALWAYS offensive to someone. As Winston Churchill said " Do you have enemies? Good, that means you are doing something right."

He was not a Christian and i cant find any thing that shows he is a true believer in Christ at all.
He was only a full on freemason, but that has noting to do with Jesus Christ at all does it.

Enemies ? boy making enemies of other Christians is not what Jesus was on about.

[marksman]

Enemies ? boy making enemies of other Christians is not what Jesus was on about.

Sorry mate, but I live in the real world. I have read about 60 books in the last 10 years covering church history, and it is a litany of denominations, church leaders and individuals fighting each other.

Maybe Jesus was not on about that but his so called church definitely was and is. Today, you can make enemies without really trying. You can say something about homosexuality, pointing out what the scriptures say and the pro homosexual clergy will bag you for it. You can say that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life and the ecumaniacs will bag you for being so intolerant.

So I will stand by Churchill's sentiments, who after all saved a nation from nazi oppression. Who have you saved in that way?

With all due respect to the late great Winston Churchill, I want any truth that I speak to be spoken in love...period

With all due respects, whether truth is spoken in love or not, it will still be offensive to someone as my previous post illustrates. My fellowship is offensive to a lot of people because we are not "nice" and "religious" as we cater for the marginalised and disposessed who are not welcome in our local churches as they do not fit the image.

Edited by marksman, 24 February 2012 - 02:17 PM.

[MR ROSENBERGER]

Sorry mate, but I live in the real world. I have read about 60 books in the last 10 years covering church history, and it is a litany of denominations, church leaders and individuals fighting each other.

Maybe Jesus was not on about that but his so called church definitely was and is. Today, you can make enemies without really trying. You can say something about homosexuality, pointing out what the scriptures say and the pro homosexual clergy will bag you for it. You can say that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life and the ecumaniacs will bag you for being so intolerant.

So I will stand by Churchill's sentiments, who after all saved a nation from nazi oppression. Who have you saved in that way?



With all due respects, whether truth is spoken in love or not, it will still be offensive to someone as my previous post illustrates. My fellowship is offensive to a lot of people because we are not "nice" and "religious" as we cater for the marginalised and disposessed who are not welcome in our local churches as they do not fit the image.

Fact is mate that people like Churchill caused the war and he did all he could to start it, and in the end the poor poms have only payed the stupid war off. what a toss he was and a bloody dictator, our aussie PM was so afraid of him as was all the others in his own government. and the whole Nazi thing would not of came about due to dog cunning of people like WC and even the King said the the initials WC ( water closet ) were appropriate.
That mongrel got a lot of our Aussies killed and the way he used them is the lowest of low.
That WC and his mob could of stopped all the problems with Poland and Germany easy as, but that was not his intentions.

As for your 60 books the fact is that this has noting to do with Christ at all.

[marksman]

As for your 60 books the fact is that this has noting to do with Christ at all.

What a strange comment!

First, you do not know what books I have read.

Second, you don't know what they have said.

Third, if recording the history of the church is irrelevant so is Christ as it is his church.

So where does that leave us? None other than a Christless church that is irrelevant.

I am so glad, I have to say, that I don't think as you do. Having read these books, it has become very obvious that there is a true church (His Church) and an apostate church (Man's church) running side by side.

The apostate church is giving the church a bad name and rather than drawiing people to Christ, it is driving them away.

The true church that worships Christ, not religion and tradition, is doing a good job of being the church. They walk the walk, not just talk the talk. They are the church that is growing. One example is a house church in India that is 100,000 strong on the last count.

For me, the books were not irrelevant. They clearly showed the real from the counterfeit and how to avoid the pitfalls of the man made system such as bypassing the irrelevancy of the rosary.

[justaname]

Wow. This is a tough topic for me. I suppose if you truly want answers about the questions you posted, you need to ask a Roman Catholic, and I am not one. Now as for myself, I can say it is not for me. I pray differently and I know Jesus to be my mediator. I do sometimes recite the Our Father, both in part in my prayer and in its fullness. But the Hail Mary, no I don't do that. I am honestly unsure as to how God feels about us asking Mary to pray for us. I will say we ask the living to pray for us all the time, and those who are dead are present with the Lord. Can she hear us? I don't know, I could only guess.

[MR ROSENBERGER]

What a strange comment!

First, you do not know what books I have read.

Second, you don't know what they have said.

Third, if recording the history of the church is irrelevant so is Christ as it is his church.

So where does that leave us? None other than a Christless church that is irrelevant.

I am so glad, I have to say, that I don't think as you do. Having read these books, it has become very obvious that there is a true church (His Church) and an apostate church (Man's church) running side by side.

The apostate church is giving the church a bad name and rather than drawiing people to Christ, it is driving them away.

The true church that worships Christ, not religion and tradition, is doing a good job of being the church. They walk the walk, not just talk the talk. They are the church that is growing. One example is a house church in India that is 100,000 strong on the last count.

For me, the books were not irrelevant. They clearly showed the real from the counterfeit and how to avoid the pitfalls of the man made system such as bypassing the irrelevancy of the rosary.

Have you ever read or studied the Catholic Church position and point of view or debated with them in depth ?
Protestants are mainly very simplistic in there view, and have a unhealthy view to hate other Christians. and i should know as i was one of them. I hated the CC so much and i was going to sort them out, with there, what i thought was rubbish and you see, all is not as it seems. and looking through worldly eyes you can not see.
protestants believe a lot of rubbish like OSOS and faith alone and so called bible believing christians.
And i don't know why one would disregard the book of James. and James is not on about one's own works at all is he, but the works of Jesus Christ in us !
So why is it that that Protestants etc push this load of bull and there is many books out there spinning rubbish and half lies, is it not that the work of Satan ?
I found out that we have to come into Jesus as i have no interest in so called denominations.
I even had one joker saying that Paul was the greatest disciple. He has no idea what a disciple is or what Christ was on about with the child.

Edited by MR ROSENBERGER, 06 March 2012 - 10:31 PM.

[marksman]

Have you ever read or studied the Catholic Church position and point of view or debated with them in depth ?

Yes as I have already said.

Protestants are mainly very simplistic in there view

As you are in your dismissal of the books I read without knowing one word of their contents.

and have a unhealthy view to hate other Christians.

I don't hate other Christians. i don't hate anyone.

and i should know as i was one of them.

Your experience is not sufficient evidence to judge all other christians by.

protestants believe a lot of rubbish like OSOS and faith alone and so called bible believing christians.

This sentence does not make sense. What is OSOS and how can protestants believe so called bible believing christians?

And i don't know why one would disregard the book of James. and James is not on about one's own works at all is he, but the works of Jesus Christ in us !

I don't disregard the book of James. We are currently studying it in our fellowship.

So why is it that that Protestants etc push this load of bull and there is many books out there spinning rubbish and half lies, is it not that the work of Satan ?

Is that akin to papal bulls?

I found out that we have to come into Jesus as i have no interest in so called denominations.

Why are you defending them, then?

I even had one joker saying that Paul was the greatest disciple. He has no idea what a disciple is or what Christ was on about with the child.

Paul? child? Sorry mate. That one escapes me.

[MR ROSENBERGER]

I will start at the bottom. Paul ? some hear think Paul is above his master. and some think he is the greatest disciple. now that is ridiculous, Peter was given the keys and the name Peter by Jesus, and Peter is not greater than, but has a position given to him.. and the Child is the one greater than all of them as are all children.

If you did have a good understanding of the Catholic Church you would know they are not a denomination ? so much for the so called 60 books etc. and as for not knowing OSAS once saved always saved. sorry about the O it's a A.

"My experience" is just that, as i come across it all of the time with people so hostile, if you mention the RCC and i am not saying about all prot Christians. but you know how you are ranting on with anti Catholic things that you don't know the truth about, and sure i believe you about some of the donkeys in the Catholic Church, for sure as you say it is true..

And i know you do not know be it 60 books or not and that is why i said as such.
And you have no idea about WC as i just said he was not a devout Christian at all but a raving far right wing radical nut who was a cunning conniving low life freemason who could of gone a long way to not starting the war in the first place. but no he wanted war and did all in his power for years to press every button to start it all. look at the situation with Poland his lot let that fester and could of easy stopped it from coming to that. but no no no. the planing to the killing of millions was all ok. why did he not just take out Hitler years before ? theirs no money in that is there.
Yet you are idolising WC.

[marksman]

And you have no idea about WC as i just said he was not a devout Christian at all but a raving far right wing radical nut who was a cunning conniving low life freemason who could of gone a long way to not starting the war in the first place. but no he wanted war and did all in his power for years to press every button to start it all. look at the situation with Poland his lot let that fester and could of easy stopped it from coming to that. but no no no. the planing to the killing of millions was all ok. why did he not just take out Hitler years before ? theirs no money in that is there.
Yet you are idolising WC.

I have just read a short biography of Winston Churchill and not once does it make any mention of him being a cunning conniving low life freemason.

Not once does it describe him as a raving far right wing radical nut.

Not once did it say he started the war.

Not once does it mention that he pressed every button to start a war.

I have just read an eyewitness account of Poland, written by a Jew who lived in the ghetto in Warsaw. He makes no mention of an expectation that Churchill was going to rescue them.

Most biographers speak of Churchill as the man who saved Britain from the tyranny of Hitler's yoke.

So I have to question everything you say about him, especially as I lived in England and that is not the Churchill I know.

[MR ROSENBERGER]

I have just read a short biography of Winston Churchill and not once does it make any mention of him being a cunning conniving low life freemason.

Not once does it describe him as a raving far right wing radical nut.

Not once did it say he started the war.

Not once does it mention that he pressed every button to start a war.

I have just read an eyewitness account of Poland, written by a Jew who lived in the ghetto in Warsaw. He makes no mention of an expectation that Churchill was going to rescue them.

Most biographers speak of Churchill as the man who saved Britain from the tyranny of Hitler's yoke.

So I have to question everything you say about him, especially as I lived in England and that is not the Churchill I know.

Now listen mate not every thing you read about in books is in depth.
WC saved his own types of stuck up rich type of snobs that liked to walk all over the lower class people, is that a fact ?
And if it was not for people like WC, Hitler would not of came about, i think that is a fact if you know your history.
My neighbour is a pommy and he was in WW2 and he does not like old mate WC.
History says that it was England that declared war, But if you look in to it the reason why, it has noting to do with Poland at all or any other countries. the fact is Germany was on the way to becoming a far greater economy than England and that's a fact. so England days were numbered of ruling over Europe.
Look at what the Poms did to the USA when they did not get their way, war ! and then the poor pommy bastards had to run away with their tail between their legs.
Yes mate i know how it is in business dealing with the big sharks as they will do any low down cunning devious things they can to keep others down.
So WC is not a far right wing man ? i would think all hard right or left wing's are radicals.
Don't get me wrong as WC has some good points but i think you are in to idolising people like so many and you may like to loo into the book of ST James and have a good look at Chapter 4 . i see this as so true, and until people come truly to the Lord we will always have such idiot damn fool wars.

[jiggyfly]

Time to get back on topic please.

[aspen2]

The Rosary is simply a meditation - it is not required - if you do not like it, don't pray it.

[brodav9]

Matt. 6:7 read this scripture---use not vain repetitions-- they think they will be heard by much speaking. left part of verse out to show my gentleness. Some people just don't know what they are doing and need the light of truth to help them.

[aspen2]

Matt. 6:7 read this scripture---use not vain repetitions-- they think they will be heard by much speaking. left part of verse out to show my gentleness. Some people just don't know what they are doing and need the light of truth to help them.

Hmm....guess you evangelicals better stop repeating verse after verse during your 30 minute worship sessions on Sunday.

[mjrhealth]

1Ti_2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Mat_6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

I talk to God as a son does His father. That is a relationship.

But who am I to put truth before religious rules and regulations.

In all His Love

And I was a catholic for many years so I know where I came from. It was Christ that took me out.

[Selene]

Matt. 6:7 read this scripture---use not vain repetitions-- they think they will be heard by much speaking. left part of verse out to show my gentleness. Some people just don't know what they are doing and need the light of truth to help them.

They're not vain repetitions. They're actually called "fervant prayer".....the kind of prayer that Jesus prayed over and over the whole night when He was in the Garden of Gethsamane.

Matthew 26:38- And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou [wilt]. And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed [is] willing, but the flesh [is] weak. He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy. And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

Jesus took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee and they were supposed to keep watch while Jesus prayed for one hour.. ONE HOUR. Jesus prayed the same words over and over, and each time He prayed He noticed that His disciples were sleeping instead of praying with Him. "Could ye not watch with me for one hour?" So, the prayer was supposed to be one hour. And each time Jesus found His disciples sleeping instead of keeping vigil, Christ starts the same prayer using the same words. That is fervant prayer....the same kind of prayer one would see in the rosary. So, Jesus prayed for one hour using the same words. The rosary, on the other hand, only takes about 30 minutes. And for your information, the rosary is a prayer telling the entire story of Jesus' life.

Edited by Selene, 26 May 2012 - 06:18 PM.

[Angelina]

Jesus was about to die on the cross on our behalf. He was praying to his Father. This has nothing to do with those who pray repetitious prayers.. Three usually represents completeness or divine perfection. God answered him by his situation remaining the same, after Jesus prayed the third time...He was to fulfill Gods plan for him as the sacrificial lamb on behalf of the world.

Jesus gives us an example on how we are to pray...

Matthew 6
⁶ But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. ⁷ And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
⁸ “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.

⁹In this manner, therefore, pray:

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
¹⁰ Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
¹¹ Give us this day our daily bread.
¹² And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
¹³ And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

My Catholic friend, uses the rosary to pray the above prayer and then the "Hail Mary prayer." then repeats the above prayer again...flicking each bead with the thumb [which represents each prayer said]. When she reaches a point in the beads [which depicts a saint, inset] she prays to that saint and other various saints that have gone into heaven according to how the beads are set out..I would not consider this to be fervent prayer but rather a ritual...They are not prayers inspired by the heart through the Holy Spirit as such but something that has been learned by rote.

James 5 gives us an example of fervent prayers. They usually involve others....

¹³ Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms. ¹⁴ Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. ¹⁵ And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. ¹⁶ Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. ¹⁷ Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months. ¹⁸ And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit.

Shalom!!!

[Mungo]

Let him sing psalms.

Yes, a repetitious psalm like Psalm 136.
It has "God's love endures forever" 26 times.

Then in Revelation:

The four living creatures, each of them with six wings, were covered with eyes inside and out. Day and night they do not stop exclaiming:

“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty,

who was, and who is, and who is to come.”

Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to the one who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before the one who sits on the throne and worship him, who lives forever and ever. They throw down their crowns before the throne, exclaiming:

“Worthy are you, Lord our God,

to receive glory and honor and power,

for you created all things;

because of your will they came to be and were created.”

(Rev 4:8-11)

That’s repetitious prayer.

It’s not repetitious prayer that Jesus was condemning it was the empty babbling of the pagans.

Edited by Mungo, 27 May 2012 - 06:04 AM.

[Angelina]

The four living creatures, each of them with six wings, were covered with eyes inside and out. Day and night they do not stop exclaiming:

“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty,

who was, and who is, and who is to come.”

Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to the one who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before the one who sits on the throne and worship him, who lives forever and ever. They throw down their crowns before the throne, exclaiming:

“Worthy are you, Lord our God,

to receive glory and honor and power,

for you created all things;

because of your will they came to be and were created.”

(Rev 4:8-11)

That’s repetitious prayer.

Giving God glory is not repetitious prayer when it is inspired by individual hearts....it is worship unto the Lord.

[Mungo]

Giving God glory is not repetitious prayer when it is inspired by individual hearts....it is worship unto the Lord.

Prayer that is repeated over and over again is repetitious. That's the meaning of repetitious.

And don't forget Psalm 136 with 26 repetitions of "God's love endures forever"

Edited by Mungo, 27 May 2012 - 06:24 AM.

[Angelina]

As I have already expressed... worship unto the Lord... I am not a Catholic believer...I am a Pentecostal...and have also been a worship leader. Psalms is the bibles Hymn book made up of prayers, songs and praise.

Shalom!!!

[Mungo]

As I have already expressed... worship unto the Lord... I am not a Catholic believer...I am a Pentecostal...and have also been a worship leader. Psalms is the bibles Hymn book made up of prayers, songs and praise.

Shalom!!!

All you are saying is that some repetitious pray is OK and some is not.

It's just your personal view in that you approve of some an not others.

That's OK, but not biblical.

[Angelina]

Commonly known as " the great hallel" Psalm 136 was sung during the period of the great biblical feasts and high times...At the end of of David's life; Solomon - at the dedication of the Temple [2Chron. 7:3-6] the armies of Jehoshaphat [2Chron. 20:19,21] the men of Hezekiah [2 Chron. 29,30,31],and the days of Ezra. 2,6

What I am saying is that you cannot use this verse as a qualifier of repetitive prayer...because it ain't...it is praise unto the Lord for his mercy endures forever

Shalom!!!