48 replies to this topic

[Episkopos]

We are living in a time where the "state of grace" is unknown and not even believed in let alone understood. When we walk in the Spirit we cannot sin. When we abide in Christ we show Christ to the world...it is no longer we who are doing the living out.

Now many will agree with the bible without understanding what they are agreeing to. As soon as you say the words of the bible in different words retaining the same meaning they say they agree with...they will deny it. They are simply indoctrinated into a word pattern which they do not understand. So they are still living in the old man according to the flesh. But a true birth in the Spirit causes one to at least SEE what the gospel and the kingdom is.

So we strive to surrender to the point where we are found IN Christ in that state of grace that makes us overcomers. How can we who are dead to sin live any longer in it? This is a question that most can only seek to avoid. Can avoidance of the truth save you?

When we have suffered to the extent that we give up our lives...grace kicks in in the form of a spiritual keeping power of God where we walk in an actual light...the armour of light that Paul maintains we need to walk in. But this is far from the casual Christianity of the masses. Christianity was never meant for the masses...but these masses have reduced the gospel to the merely shallow and doable aspects of our tiny efforts according to the flesh. Most now deny the power that resurrected Christ. They see the flesh as more powerful than the Spirit. But this is a subversion of the gospel and a stand against the truth.

[Shep]

Good post...thanks

[Rach]

Yeah, see, I'm not sure I fully understand what you're trying to say. In the 'blended Gospel' thread, you said that as long as you were 'IN' Christ, you didn't sin. And that the longest you had done that was for a few years. Are you saying that during those 'few' years, you didn't sin...at all. No hateful thoughts popping into your head involuntarily? No sin by omission? Nothing? You truly lived a perfect life, as Christ did, during those years?
See, I find that almost impossible to believe...so please correct me if my assumptions are wrong. At this point I'm not trying to drag you out just to stomp on you! I'm really trying to understand what you're trying to say...I've noticed a few here hold to that same line. And to be honest I've not heard it before...so, could you please lay it out for me?

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

What does it mean to surrender?

[prism]

...the armour of light that Paul maintains we need to walk in. But this is far from the casual Christianity of the masses. Christianity was never meant for the masses...but these masses have reduced the gospel to the merely shallow and doable aspects of our tiny efforts according to the flesh. Most now deny the power that resurrected Christ. They see the flesh as more powerful than the Spirit. But this is a subversion of the gospel and a stand against the truth.

Perhaps more than you think though...

And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
(Rev 5:8-11)

[Episkopos]

Yeah, see, I'm not sure I fully understand what you're trying to say. In the 'blended Gospel' thread, you said that as long as you were 'IN' Christ, you didn't sin. And that the longest you had done that was for a few years. Are you saying that during those 'few' years, you didn't sin...at all. No hateful thoughts popping into your head involuntarily? No sin by omission? Nothing? You truly lived a perfect life, as Christ did, during those years?
See, I find that almost impossible to believe...so please correct me if my assumptions are wrong. At this point I'm not trying to drag you out just to stomp on you! I'm really trying to understand what you're trying to say...I've noticed a few here hold to that same line. And to be honest I've not heard it before...so, could you please lay it out for me?

Before the time that I lasted so long in that state of grace the longest I had lasted was a few weeks..once. Before that only a few days..once. But this time (about 14 years ago) I had a huge personal revival...walking in light...personal visitation and a type of circumcision that felt like a knife going into my heart. I was in a constnt state of grace for almost 2 years after that. Even my dreams were in the Lord. We were also surrounded by other disciples in those days and had many visitors from all over the world. It seemed like God did not want to waste an ounce of that grace He had given to me.

I realize this is not a typical experience...but as I abided in THAT place in Christ everything was so easy to understand. ALL the verses made complete sense. There was no need to downplay any meanings of the "impossible" sounding verses.

So I now testify that the place we are called to in Christ is a place of overcoming. It is easy to remain there but only after heaven and earth are moved to get you there. So I would say that it is very hard to get there but once there there is a keeping power of God that sticks you to the Lord like a fridge magnet. I can tell you that every thought WAS captive to Christ...I was living IN Christ...seeing through His own eyes.

If most can't believe this about my experience that's fine. But the testimony of the bible is very clear on the matter of being dead to sin and alive (only) to Christ.

The bible says...we carry the death of Christ in our mortal bodies so that the life of Christ can be made manifest in us and through us. That IS the Christian walk. It is a very narrow way...and it seems few even believe the testimony of the gospels let alone experience the grace power to walk in this resurrection life.

What does it mean to surrender?

Giving 100% of yourself on the altar of God. As soon as you give your all...something stupendous happens. My experience is to be filled with light and be able to walk in that light afterwards...until the grace leaks out. As I have stated...the first time I leaked out rather quickly from feeling trapped in this grace power that was nothing I was used to. The second time I experienced this light was not as overpowering..but I was not as leaky either.

Perhaps more than you think though...

And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
(Rev 5:8-11)

I think the gospel used to be much better understood than in our times. There was a lot more faith as well. Are we not living in the end times where faith is not so easy to come by?

Edited by Episkopos, 26 April 2012 - 10:30 PM.

[aspen2]

ugh,,,,,

mercy! Do you really follow a God that is so unmerciful? Why bother? I'd rather eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow I die than swear aligance to such a tyrant

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Giving 100% of yourself on the altar of God. As soon as you give your all...something stupendous happens. My experience is to be filled with light and be able to walk in that light afterwards...until the grace leaks out. As I have stated...the first time I leaked out rather quickly from feeling trapped in this grace power that was nothing I was used to. The second time I experienced this light was not as overpowering..but I was not as leaky either.

I was hoping for something more definite. What you have described is so vague it's not helpful to determine what is required.

[Episkopos]

I was hoping for something more definite. What you have described is so vague it's not helpful to determine what is required.

It is required that one cry out to God and seek HARD after Him. You have to push. That has been my exrerience. In what way do you mean more definite?

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

It is required that one cry out to God and seek HARD after Him. You have to push. That has been my exrerience. In what way do you mean more definite?

Sorry. I meant definitive.

[Strat]

We are living in a time where the "state of grace" is unknown and not even believed in let alone understood. When we walk in the Spirit we cannot sin. When we abide in Christ we show Christ to the world...it is no longer we who are doing the living out.

Now many will agree with the bible without understanding what they are agreeing to. As soon as you say the words of the bible in different words retaining the same meaning they say they agree with...they will deny it. They are simply indoctrinated into a word pattern which they do not understand. So they are still living in the old man according to the flesh. But a true birth in the Spirit causes one to at least SEE what the gospel and the kingdom is.

So we strive to surrender to the point where we are found IN Christ in that state of grace that makes us overcomers. How can we who are dead to sin live any longer in it? This is a question that most can only seek to avoid. Can avoidance of the truth save you?

When we have suffered to the extent that we give up our lives...grace kicks in in the form of a spiritual keeping power of God where we walk in an actual light...the armour of light that Paul maintains we need to walk in. But this is far from the casual Christianity of the masses. Christianity was never meant for the masses...but these masses have reduced the gospel to the merely shallow and doable aspects of our tiny efforts according to the flesh. Most now deny the power that resurrected Christ. They see the flesh as more powerful than the Spirit. But this is a subversion of the gospel and a stand against the truth.

As usual nobody has it right but you.

[Episkopos]

As usual nobody has it right but you.

As usual the mocking tone. One should not expect too much from the Lord when this type of attitude is entertained.

[Strat]

As usual the mocking tone. One should not expect too much from the Lord when this type of attitude is entertained.

You speak as the lofty one from the top of the Ivory Tower,easy to do on the internet where nobody knows you,that attitude has its consequences as well.I just researched the meaning of the name you give yourself....makes sense now.
"Christianity was never meant for the masses"....no, just for the special people.....turning the gospel into just another elite club that can look down on the less worthy....with that one statement you expose the type of attitude you have....God is not willing that ANY should perish,but that ALL should come to repentance.

The path is narrow because human beings at all levels love sin and want the easy way,not because some people are better than others....only those who surrender their will to the will of God will be saved and even the ability to surrender their will is of God and not them.I am in and of myself a hopeless sinner,but God has saved me because he is God and i am not and the grace he extends to me is unmerited favor because,as another man once put it "no good thing dwells in me"

Edited by Strat, 28 April 2012 - 10:40 AM.

[Episkopos]

You speak as the lofty one from the top of the Ivory Tower,easy to do on the internet where nobody knows you,that attitude has its consequences as well.

The first time I walked in the light I did feel in a way trapped there as if in an ivory tower as you say....it got to be too much for me to not just be normal. But I had forgotten that "normal" meant just the usual life of a person outside of the knowledge and experience of God. But to my regret I wanted out. God is merciful in that after a great deal of regret and repentance on my part He said that I would walk like that again before the end.

We are so carnally gearewd so as to not take seriously the claims of the bible...sure we can accept that somewhere in fantasy land people raised the dead and whatever...but so few actually accept these testimonies as true and rational.

Before meeting the Lord, I was as you were. If this makes me an object of scorn..then at least look at the word to see the radical nature of what God will do when someone surrenders to Him. Believe the testimony of the bible at least.

[Strat]

The first time I walked in the light I did feel in a way trapped there as if in an ivory tower as you say....it got to be too much for me to not just be normal. But I had forgotten that "normal" meant just the usual life of a person outside of the knowledge and experience of God. But to my regret I wanted out. God is merciful in that after a great deal of regret and repentance on my part He said that I would walk like that again before the end.

We are so carnally gearewd so as to not take seriously the claims of the bible...sure we can accept that somewhere in fantasy land people raised the dead and whatever...but so few actually accept these testimonies as true and rational.

Before meeting the Lord, I was as you were. If this makes me an object of scorn..then at least look at the word to see the radical nature of what God will do when someone surrenders to Him. Believe the testimony of the bible at least.

Once again you cannot help being condescending...before meeting the lord you were like me ? priceless.....i accept the claims of the Bible by faith because it is the only way i can,the only way anybody can.The just shall live by faith...the Bible was written thousands of years ago and i am only 51 years old so fath is both a commandment as well as a practical reality for me in regard to the events mentioned in the Bible,the faith i speak of is the faith in God as the creator of the Universe and all of the laws of physics which he can break or rearrange at will.

[Episkopos]

Once again you cannot help being condescending...before meeting the lord you were like me ? priceless.....i accept the claims of the Bible by faith because it is the only way i can,the only way anybody can.The just shall live by faith...the Bible was written thousands of years ago and i am only 51 years old so fath is both a commandment as well as a practical reality for me in regard to the events mentioned in the Bible,the faith i speak of is the faith in God as the creator of the Universe and all of the laws of physics which he can break or rearrange at will.

Then why is an outpouring of grace on a person so dificult to accept? In my experience it is only unbelievers who have difficulty with this.

[Jake]

We can believe and have faith in the events recorded in the Bible, believing in their experiences, but we each need to have our own personal experience with the power of God working in our lives for any of it to hit home. How long can we borrow Paul's experiences? We need our own. Why is one person's experience denied, while another's is accepted? Does God deal with each individual the same? No. God wants to reveal Himself to us through means of whatever He chooses.

[Strat]

Then why is an outpouring of grace on a person so dificult to accept? In my experience it is only unbelievers who have difficulty with this.

I am familiar with your tactics,it won't work here,you think if you talk in a big enough circle your words will be forgotten.

[MR ROSENBERGER]

Grace meaning a favor or gift.

A supernatural gift of God to an intellectual creature, bestowed with a view to eternal life.

Actual grace.

Habitual grace or Sanctifying grace. the basis for the virtues and gifts of the Holy Ghost.

Sacramental grace.

St Paul uses the word grace 110 times normally meaning a gift from God to man, to which we have no claim whatsoever.

[Episkopos]

Grace meaning a favor or gift.

A supernatural gift of God to an intellectual creature, bestowed with a view to eternal life.

Actual grace.

Habitual grace or Sanctifying grace. the basis for the virtues and gifts of the Holy Ghost.

Sacramental grace.

St Paul uses the word grace 110 times normally meaning a gift from God to man, to which we have no claim whatsoever.

Grace= resurrection power. Grace is that which first empowers then edifies the new creation in Christ. The state of grace is the experiencing of the apprehending of the gift of God to men...namely to be indwelt and led by the Holy Spirit.

I am familiar with your tactics,it won't work here,you think if you talk in a big enough circle your words will be forgotten.

I have given a partial testimony for the benefit of those who are seeking to go forward in Christ. The evil is in the eye of the one doing the judging. If your eye is evil then everything appears evil.

[Strat]

Grace= resurrection power. Grace is that which first empowers then edifies the new creation in Christ. The state of grace is the experiencing of the apprehending of the gift of God to men...namely to be indwelt and led by the Holy Spirit.



I have given a partial testimony for the benefit of those who are seeking to go forward in Christ. The evil is in the eye of the one doing the judging. If your eye is evil then everything appears evil.

You have said several times that because i don't see things your way i am unsaved,did you say it directly,no,your approach is more subtle than that but you have said it none the less...you even do it here suggesting that those who wish to go forward in Christ will benefit form your.....testimony,not content to let any statement or definition stand you feel the need to reword it into a judgement which you in fact have already made....that judgement being that you are the last word on everything and anyone who doesn't bow is unsaved.....that sir is evil.

Edited by Strat, 29 April 2012 - 12:56 PM.

[Episkopos]

You have said several times that because i don't see things your way i am unsaved,did you say it directly,no,your approach is more subtle than that but you have said it none the less...you even do it here suggesting that those who wish to go forward in Christ will benefit form your.....testimony,not content to let any statement or definition stand you feel the need to reword it into a judgement which you in fact have already made....that judgement being that you are the last word on everything and anyone who doesn't bow is unsaved.....that sir is evil.

So you are seeking the last word? You are displaying unbelief for all to see. Do you take any testimony seriously? What is your testimony? Rather than attack others and judge do you have anything of edifying value to contribute?

[Rach]

Before the time that I lasted so long in that state of grace the longest I had lasted was a few weeks..once. Before that only a few days..once. But this time (about 14 years ago) I had a huge personal revival...walking in light...personal visitation and a type of circumcision that felt like a knife going into my heart. I was in a constnt state of grace for almost 2 years after that. Even my dreams were in the Lord. We were also surrounded by other disciples in those days and had many visitors from all over the world. It seemed like God did not want to waste an ounce of that grace He had given to me.

I realize this is not a typical experience...but as I abided in THAT place in Christ everything was so easy to understand. ALL the verses made complete sense. There was no need to downplay any meanings of the "impossible" sounding verses.

I understood that sanctification was an always present, ongoing process. If what you say is absolutely true, shouldn't what you experienced have been a repeating and expanding thing? Why was this amazing and perfect thing 14 years ago? If it was true growth in Christ...as in, your walking 'in' Him should have made you more like him...why hasn't it happened again and again in the time since? Why hasn't the time frame in which you live 'in' Him increased? If it hasn't, how we can call it true growth, true sanctification?

So I now testify that the place we are called to in Christ is a place of overcoming. It is easy to remain there but only after heaven and earth are moved to get you there. So I would say that it is very hard to get there but once there there is a keeping power of God that sticks you to the Lord like a fridge magnet. I can tell you that every thought WAS captive to Christ...I was living IN Christ...seeing through His own eyes.

I'm sorry, but I just cannot believe that your every thought, action and deed was perfect. If indeed that was true, then during those two years, you would have been perfect...God could have taken you home because you had reached the pinnacle of human experience and hope. I understand the bible telling us that even while we are now made new, we are still human. John tells us that anyone who claims not to have sin is a liar and makes God a liar. I know he goes on to say that we are free from sin, but I believe this to be a statement of what we now have in Christ. Before, being captive to sin, means we had no way of overcoming our nature. But now, with a new heart and Christ walking with us, when confronted with sin, we do have the choice now to walk away from it...that is true freedom! But it does not mean that we are sin free...in fact all scripture would refute it. We shall only be completely sin free and perfect when we reach heaven or are given our new bodies. Until then we walk in sanctification...a process of growth that should make us more like Christ every year. Last year we fell into this sin, this year we have put that sin to death and are struggling with new sin!

If most can't believe this about my experience that's fine. But the testimony of the bible is very clear on the matter of being dead to sin and alive (only) to Christ.

The bible says...we carry the death of Christ in our mortal bodies so that the life of Christ can be made manifest in us and through us. That IS the Christian walk. It is a very narrow way...and it seems few even believe the testimony of the gospels let alone experience the grace power to walk in this resurrection life.

As I said, I believe the power of the gospel is the strength, choice and ability to turn away from sin. We cannot say it means we are sin free, because too much of the NT talks about Christians who have sin! The walk is our ongoing process of choosing to put sin to death, to take a step, with the Holy Spirit, closer to being like Christ. I do believe in the gospel, and I do believe in the 'impossible', and I most certainly do believe in being 'filled with the Holy Spirit'...those amazing times when all you can see is God and you float around in a cloud of wonder and grace. But those times don't make us perfect, they but give us glimpses of what we hope to attain through our walk. I believe the road is narrow because it truly takes a person fully desiring the will of God to take the hand of the Spirit and turn away from sin day after day after day. It's a long road, because we don't do it everyday...we fall down and drop that hand occasionally. Paul, John, Peter...all the NT writers have written to fellow Christians encouraging them not to drop that hand, to keep going, and to call them to repentance when they have stopped.

ugh,,,,,

mercy! Do you really follow a God that is so unmerciful? Why bother? I'd rather eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow I die than swear aligance to such a tyrant

Hey Aspen2, welcome to the forum! Can I ask why you've said the above? What exactly makes you find 'their god' unmerciful? Sorry...just want to clarify, as they have been several posters before yours!
Thanks!

[Episkopos]

I understood that sanctification was an always present, ongoing process. If what you say is absolutely true, shouldn't what you experienced have been a repeating and expanding thing? Why was this amazing and perfect thing 14 years ago? If it was true growth in Christ...as in, your walking 'in' Him should have made you more like him...why hasn't it happened again and again in the time since? Why hasn't the time frame in which you live 'in' Him increased? If it hasn't, how we can call it true growth, true sanctification?

Hi Rach! I would respond by saying that God is as interested in character as nature. In other words He leaves time for us to have a new lesson sink in and produce the character required to be able to carry a heavier weight of holiness. Just like in a school scenario there is the theoretical and the practical aspects to apprehend. So once a deeper lesson has been taught then one must ponder the implications and lessons one has learned. So there is growth on both fronts..all culminating in a deeper love for God together with a greater surrender. Nothing is wasted with God. I am still processing the lessons I learned in the time of the state of grace I experienced. I guess that once the lessons have fully sunk in then God will continue in a more "supernatural" way. But then again, maybe the faith and devotion that I have learned to have in God in all circumstances is the goal in itself.

I'm sorry, but I just cannot believe that your every thought, action and deed was perfect. If indeed that was true, then during those two years, you would have been perfect...God could have taken you home because you had reached the pinnacle of human experience and hope. I understand the bible telling us that even while we are now made new, we are still human. John tells us that anyone who claims not to have sin is a liar and makes God a liar. I know he goes on to say that we are free from sin, but I believe this to be a statement of what we now have in Christ. Before, being captive to sin, means we had no way of overcoming our nature. But now, with a new heart and Christ walking with us, when confronted with sin, we do have the choice now to walk away from it...that is true freedom! But it does not mean that we are sin free...in fact all scripture would refute it. We shall only be completely sin free and perfect when we reach heaven or are given our new bodies. Until then we walk in sanctification...a process of growth that should make us more like Christ every year. Last year we fell into this sin, this year we have put that sin to death and are struggling with new sin!

We must have a taste of what we are going after in order to not be seeming to always learn something while actually not progressing in reality. It is about scale. If God had asked Noah to build a boat without showing him the standard...Noah might have only built a rowboat. How are we to know what constitutes enough growth? We need to understand the vastness of the scale of the requirement of God so as not to build something below the required standard. So God in His mercy allows us to experience what the final result will look like. I am trying to show from the bible that the standard of God in Christ is a new creation ALREADY created in holiness. This is like an ark that will save mankind. It remains for us to not be saysfied with less than the full requirement of God which is the full stature of Christ. If someone has a hard time with my testimony pointing in THAT direction..then so be it. I certainly don't hold my experience as more important to the plain text of the bible.

As I said, I believe the power of the gospel is the strength, choice and ability to turn away from sin. We cannot say it means we are sin free, because too much of the NT talks about Christians who have sin! The walk is our ongoing process of choosing to put sin to death, to take a step, with the Holy Spirit, closer to being like Christ. I do believe in the gospel, and I do believe in the 'impossible', and I most certainly do believe in being 'filled with the Holy Spirit'...those amazing times when all you can see is God and you float around in a cloud of wonder and grace. But those times don't make us perfect, they but give us glimpses of what we hope to attain through our walk. I believe the road is narrow because it truly takes a person fully desiring the will of God to take the hand of the Spirit and turn away from sin day after day after day. It's a long road, because we don't do it everyday...we fall down and drop that hand occasionally. Paul, John, Peter...all the NT writers have written to fellow Christians encouraging them not to drop that hand, to keep going, and to call them to repentance when they have stopped.

We are to constantly walk in the Spirit...as we learn to rely on God alone. The new testament is according to the power of the divine character of a new creation which is IN Christ. To walk in this one must first be dead to sin. A dead man doesn't do what a live man does. One who is dead in Christ shows forth Christ not himself.

So yes...we stumble and get misguided at times...but we still learning.

So God is trying to win our hearts to choose to be continually dependent on Him for every breath. This process goes very deep and takes time. We won't all benefit the same from the same training. We are told that some will grow 30 fold, 60 fold and 100 fold. But the scale of training is the same.

Edited by Episkopos, 29 April 2012 - 08:40 PM.

[Strat]

So you are seeking the last word? You are displaying unbelief for all to see. Do you take any testimony seriously? What is your testimony? Rather than attack others and judge do you have anything of edifying value to contribute?

The last word ? no,i have nothing more to say to you.

[Rach]

Hi Rach! I would respond by saying that God is as interested in character as nature. In other words He leaves time for us to have a new lesson sink in and produce the character required to be able to carry a heavier weight of holiness. Just like in a school scenario there is the theoretical and the practical aspects to apprehend. So once a deeper lesson has been taught then one must ponder the implications and lessons one has learned. So there is growth on both fronts..all culminating in a deeper love for God together with a greater surrender. Nothing is wasted with God. I am still processing the lessons I learned in the time of the state of grace I experienced. I guess that once the lessons have fully sunk in then God will continue in a more "supernatural" way. But then again, maybe the faith and devotion that I have learned to have in God in all circumstances is the goal in itself.

Hey! I do most certainly agree that God wants things to 'sink in' and build us up in body as well as just in mind. It's a big difference from simply comprehending what He's asking of us, to actually doing it and living it!
But I can't help but wonder at where you're coming from with this. To my mind, either this 'being in Christ' that you experienced is the ultimate thing for a Christian to seek in their walk of life (which seems to what you suggest in your opening post)...and is what the bible teaches us our 'sanctification' means...and therefore our spiritual progress would be measured in whether we are actually progressing in this state. Or, if it doesn't mean that, and it actually means, as you suggest above, that such moments are only there to teach us devotion and faith to God, then your OP loses some merit. Because it cannot be both...and I'm not trying to tear you down..it just doesn't make sense to me theologically. It can be the ultimate understanding of what the gospel is teaching and the spot where truly spiritual giants reach, and reach more and more as they grow...or it is only brief learning moment which leads to a slow but hand in hand walk with the Spirit that progresses that way.

We must have a taste of what we are going after in order to not be seeming to always learn something while actually not progressing in reality. It is about scale. If God had asked Noah to build a boat without showing him the standard...Noah might have only built a rowboat. How are we to know what constitutes enough growth? We need to understand the vastness of the scale of the requirement of God so as not to build something below the required standard. So God in His mercy allows us to experience what the final result will look like. I am trying to show from the bible that the standard of God in Christ is a new creation ALREADY created in holiness. This is like an ark that will save mankind. It remains for us to not be saysfied with less than the full requirement of God which is the full stature of Christ. If someone has a hard time with my testimony pointing in THAT direction..then so be it. I certainly don't hold my experience as more important to the plain text of the bible.

I'm not actually sure I'm understanding your point here. I would have to say that in some ways it's not necessary to 'have a taste'...that is where faith comes in. Noah built to God's specifications because he had faith in God, that God would bring it all about as He had said. As far as Christians 'experiencing' that freedom to really know what they are 'progressing' towards, I have to disagree that that experience would need to be perfection. And I certainly can't see evidence in scripture that suggests we are given glimpses of perfection in our earthly lives. I believe that the only experiences we need are these: the ability to turn away from sin, rather than be helpless to it and it's effect on our lives; the knowledge that only in following and loving God gives ultimate freedom and joy! The standard of Jesus' perfection in life and death for us to hold up. We don't need to experience in our own lives because we have the picture of His life before us in scripture that we strive to head towards. This is why the Bible tells us we have Jesus as an example...that although we need to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" and we will not be perfect in this life time, we know the exact standards we need to work towards...Jesus!

We are to constantly walk in the Spirit...as we learn to rely on God alone. The new testament is according to the power of the divine character of a new creation which is IN Christ. To walk in this one must first be dead to sin. A dead man doesn't do what a live man does. One who is dead in Christ shows forth Christ not himself.

So yes...we stumble and get misguided at times...but we still learning.

So God is trying to win our hearts to choose to be continually dependent on Him for every breath. This process goes very deep and takes time. We won't all benefit the same from the same training. We are told that some will grow 30 fold, 60 fold and 100 fold. But the scale of training is the same.

See, I don't disagree with this. I most definitely agree that as Christians we stumble at times, that we have to keep getting back up. The problem I have...theologically and doctrinally, is that you claim for a space of 2 years that you were perfect. But then you were not perfect again. If you had achieved a state of perfection 'in Christ', then why would you have fallen again? I just don't believe the bible talks of humans, even Christian ones, be able to be perfect this side of death. I believe it talks of us trying to be, of us doing everything we (and the Holy Spirit) can in an effort to kill sin and live that example Jesus gave us. But we are fighting against our old selves (John), and that battle will take our life times. The freedom of Jesus is knowing that battle by battle we will advance, and that in the end, our war will be won, by and in Christ.

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Maybe the reason you're not having the effect on people you think you should be having is because you're chiding people for not living in a state of mind that you yourself are not able to live in. Just saying.

Edited by HeRoseFromTheDead, 30 April 2012 - 04:44 AM.

[Episkopos]

Hey! I do most certainly agree that God wants things to 'sink in' and build us up in body as well as just in mind. It's a big difference from simply comprehending what He's asking of us, to actually doing it and living it!
But I can't help but wonder at where you're coming from with this. To my mind, either this 'being in Christ' that you experienced is the ultimate thing for a Christian to seek in their walk of life (which seems to what you suggest in your opening post)...and is what the bible teaches us our 'sanctification' means...and therefore our spiritual progress would be measured in whether we are actually progressing in this state. Or, if it doesn't mean that, and it actually means, as you suggest above, that such moments are only there to teach us devotion and faith to God, then your OP loses some merit. Because it cannot be both...and I'm not trying to tear you down..it just doesn't make sense to me theologically. It can be the ultimate understanding of what the gospel is teaching and the spot where truly spiritual giants reach, and reach more and more as they grow...or it is only brief learning moment which leads to a slow but hand in hand walk with the Spirit that progresses that way.

If we can imagine Jesus as the ultimate guitar teacher and we as His students then we can see walking in the Spirit like Jesus playing through our hands so that we can get the complete idea of what it means to be a virtuoso. So when the Master is NOT playing through our hands we can yet practice to some degree (and to a greater and greater degree) what we have learned. So that is how our character begins to reflect more and more the character of the Master even when He is not taking the full control of the reigns, so to speak. The truth is always like a wheel within a wheel. It is not so straightforward and one-sided. We are to be guided to both to will and to do. Again, how can I know what being a virtuoso is like when I have no teacher?

I'm not actually sure I'm understanding your point here. I would have to say that in some ways it's not necessary to 'have a taste'...that is where faith comes in. Noah built to God's specifications because he had faith in God, that God would bring it all about as He had said. As far as Christians 'experiencing' that freedom to really know what they are 'progressing' towards, I have to disagree that that experience would need to be perfection. And I certainly can't see evidence in scripture that suggests we are given glimpses of perfection in our earthly lives. I believe that the only experiences we need are these: the ability to turn away from sin, rather than be helpless to it and it's effect on our lives; the knowledge that only in following and loving God gives ultimate freedom and joy! The standard of Jesus' perfection in life and death for us to hold up. We don't need to experience in our own lives because we have the picture of His life before us in scripture that we strive to head towards. This is why the Bible tells us we have Jesus as an example...that although we need to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" and we will not be perfect in this life time, we know the exact standards we need to work towards...Jesus!

Without the perfect standard of Christ, we are left to ourselves to determine that standard for ourselves. If we do this then we will have no unity...thousands of denominations....er...wait a minute!

The full stature of Christ IS the only goal of the Christian. Doing the best we can is an old testament standard. How can we only aim for this standard when we are offered the grace to walk as Jesus walked?

See, I don't disagree with this. I most definitely agree that as Christians we stumble at times, that we have to keep getting back up. The problem I have...theologically and doctrinally, is that you claim for a space of 2 years that you were perfect. But then you were not perfect again. If you had achieved a state of perfection 'in Christ', then why would you have fallen again? I just don't believe the bible talks of humans, even Christian ones, be able to be perfect this side of death. I believe it talks of us trying to be, of us doing everything we (and the Holy Spirit) can in an effort to kill sin and live that example Jesus gave us. But we are fighting against our old selves (John), and that battle will take our life times. The freedom of Jesus is knowing that battle by battle we will advance, and that in the end, our war will be won, by and in Christ.

We are already perfect when we abide in Christ...just not mature. So the perfect walk is to walk in the Spirit. That it all. But God wants us to also teach us to love and persevere in our own souls...through His example. That is why we add to our faith the qualities we read in 2 Peter that cause us to never stumble. So whether we are present with the Lord or temporarily absent from the immediate presence of the Lord our devotion never wavers.

So the talent He gives us is His grace and the talent (the parable of the talents) we return to Him on our investment is the character that is worked into us through the experience of that grace.

Maybe the reason you're not having the effect on people you think you should be having is because you're chiding people for not living in a state of mind that you yourself are not able to live in. Just saying.

I am speaking of grace...something that I neither invented or have any say over. I am simply stating my experience to a very biblical commandment...to be filled with the Spirit and walk in the Spirit. This is for all who are called to follow Christ. So it is God that is trying to get the message accross from the bible. My failure is not in relating my experience so much as not being able to say it better than the bible explains it.

Edited by Episkopos, 30 April 2012 - 06:27 AM.

[Rach]

If we can imagine Jesus as the ultimate guitar teacher and we as His students then we can see walking in the Spirit like Jesus playing through our hands so that we can get the complete idea of what it means to be a virtuoso. So when the Master is NOT playing through our hands we can yet practice to some degree (and to a greater and greater degree) what we have learned. So that is how our character begins to reflect more and more the character of the Master even when He is not taking the full control of the reigns, so to speak. The truth is always like a wheel within a wheel. It is not so straightforward and one-sided. We are to be guided to both to will and to do. Again, how can I know what being a virtuoso is like when I have no teacher?

Okay...I see what you're saying, but how does "Jesus taking the reigns" equate with the responsibility we must take for our actions? Where does the bible speak of Jesus taking complete control of our actions and thoughts...even for a time. I don't believe we can deduce this from passages that state that we are 'in Christ' and he is 'in us'...I think those passages have other and more logical interpretations. Because, if those passages did in fact mean that all Christians would have times where Jesus took the wheel to give us a taste of perfection, that would mean that every single saved person would have periods of time like the one you say you had. I know many Christians who are progressing in their walk, but would never say they have spent any amount of time living in complete perfection. So you seem then, by following that conclusion you have, be saying that some Christians are more special than others in receiving that blessing from Jesus, and that's another concept we don't find in scripture.

Without the perfect standard of Christ, we are left to ourselves to determine that standard for ourselves. If we do this then we will have no unity...thousands of denominations....er...wait a minute!

The full stature of Christ IS the only goal of the Christian. Doing the best we can is an old testament standard. How can we only aim for this standard when we are offered the grace to walk as Jesus walked?

Here, I'd have to disagree. We are most certainly not left to determine what standard perfection is for ourselves! We have the complete picture of Jesus in the scriptures, and we have the indwelling of the Spirit which convicts us and encourages us in our walk.
Yes, we are to 'do our best', but in the OT that standard was for trying to achieve salvation. We already have that...so in 'doing our best' we are only responding to that very salvation. Using the new heart we have been given to turn our back on sin. The Spirit is with us, guiding and empowering us to do this, to be really able to give our best.
I think in situations like this we can look to Paul. The man was possibly one of the most godly people we'll ever know of. He wrote books of the bible under direction of the Spirit; discipled most of the new church Christians and suffered untold miseries for the gospel. That man loved Jesus and lived a wonderful life of purpose and sanctification. And yet, towards the end of his life, he still called himself the chief of all sinners. He admitted he was still far from being perfect. He, of all people, would have had a clear vision of the perfection he was to aim for, and by golly, the man did his best to walk towards it, but we know he only ever attained it fully when he left this world. The same is for us. We can have a clear picture of what we need to become...the perfection of Jesus within this world, but the bible is very clear...we will not achieve perfection until we too die and leave this fallen world and our fallen bodies.

We are already perfect when we abide in Christ...just not mature. So the perfect walk is to walk in the Spirit. That it all. But God wants us to also teach us to love and persevere in our own souls...through His example. That is why we add to our faith the qualities we read in 2 Peter that cause us to never stumble. So whether we are present with the Lord or temporarily absent from the immediate presence of the Lord our devotion never wavers.

So the talent He gives us is His grace and the talent (the parable of the talents) we return to Him on our investment is the character that is worked into us through the experience of that grace.

See, here again I would want to clarify something. In Christ, we are seen as perfect in the eyes of God. We have Christ's righteousness when God looks at us. But we are not perfect...not yet. Look at it like this. Christ's life was perfect, yet His death took on every sin. Our lives are not perfect, with many sins, but in Christ our death will be paid for.
I agree we walk in the Spirit, and He empowers us to a more Christ like life...something we could not do on our own. But the very fact that the bible has all these passages urging us to work towards humility, and compassion, and love and consideration for others...etc, etc, just shows us that Christians are not, and will not be perfect in this life time. We need instruction, edification, encouragement to continue our walk.

I do not believe that Jesus comes to us at times to make us perfect, then withdraws again. First, it's not taught in scripture, and second, He tells us He is with us forever. That the Spirit is with us forever. There are times, the bible teaches us, and life backs this up; that we hold Hand and walk with Him, following Him and obeying Him. And there are times that we drop His hand and fall. The onus is all on us...we are sinful, He is not. And all the benefit you speak of, can be received by just building our relationship with Him and reading His word, learning who He was and how He lived.

Some of your ideas have merit...yes we are add to our character, that is in scripture. Yes, we are to love and help others...that is in scripture. Yes, we are to walk with Jesus and learn everything from Him...that too is in scripture. But I can't help but feel that you are then taking an added step that is not in scripture, in suggesting that we can be perfect in this life, in this body. That Jesus will 'live in us' and everything we do, think and say will be perfect. These ideas are not found in scripture. Sure, the phrases 'in Christ' is found everywhere, and has precious, precious meaning. But I cannot see it meaning what you say it does...quite simply because then it would be contradicting other scriptures that say we still sin.

[Episkopos]

Okay...I see what you're saying, but how does "Jesus taking the reigns" equate with the responsibility we must take for our actions? Where does the bible speak of Jesus taking complete control of our actions and thoughts...even for a time. I don't believe we can deduce this from passages that state that we are 'in Christ' and he is 'in us'...I think those passages have other and more logical interpretations. Because, if those passages did in fact mean that all Christians would have times where Jesus took the wheel to give us a taste of perfection, that would mean that every single saved person would have periods of time like the one you say you had. I know many Christians who are progressing in their walk, but would never say they have spent any amount of time living in complete perfection. So you seem then, by following that conclusion you have, be saying that some Christians are more special than others in receiving that blessing from Jesus, and that's another concept we don't find in scripture.

What does Paul mean when he says that it is no longer he that lives but Christ...or that we are dead to sin in Christ? This used to be understood and lived out by the church. No longer it would seem (or so little as to not upset the majority view)! So men have changed the meaning of the bible in order to reduce it to a merely religious grasp of the text rather than a life lived in conformity to the word...and Christ. We do not measure truth by the number of people who can vouch for the accuracy of the bilical testimony. When someone walks in the Spirit (according to Paul) he will not do what the flesh desires. John goes further and sys that a born again person cannot sin because of the divine nature in that person. To ignore this aspect of the word is to fall in with the popular religious culture of our times. There are no scriptures that state that we must all experience (or not experience) the same connection with God. Quite the opposite.

Here, I'd have to disagree. We are most certainly not left to determine what standard perfection is for ourselves! We have the complete picture of Jesus in the scriptures, and we have the indwelling of the Spirit which convicts us and encourages us in our walk.
Yes, we are to 'do our best', but in the OT that standard was for trying to achieve salvation. We already have that...so in 'doing our best' we are only responding to that very salvation. Using the new heart we have been given to turn our back on sin. The Spirit is with us, guiding and empowering us to do this, to be really able to give our best.
I think in situations like this we can look to Paul. The man was possibly one of the most godly people we'll ever know of. He wrote books of the bible under direction of the Spirit; discipled most of the new church Christians and suffered untold miseries for the gospel. That man loved Jesus and lived a wonderful life of purpose and sanctification. And yet, towards the end of his life, he still called himself the chief of all sinners. He admitted he was still far from being perfect. He, of all people, would have had a clear vision of the perfection he was to aim for, and by golly, the man did his best to walk towards it, but we know he only ever attained it fully when he left this world. The same is for us. We can have a clear picture of what we need to become...the perfection of Jesus within this world, but the bible is very clear...we will not achieve perfection until we too die and leave this fallen world and our fallen bodies.

You have missed what I am saying. I have stated that WITHOUT the perfect measure of CHrist as a standard we WILL set our own standard...such as NOT believing in the attainment of the full stature of Christ.

See, here again I would want to clarify something. In Christ, we are seen as perfect in the eyes of God. We have Christ's righteousness when God looks at us. But we are not perfect...not yet. Look at it like this. Christ's life was perfect, yet His death took on every sin. Our lives are not perfect, with many sins, but in Christ our death will be paid for.
I agree we walk in the Spirit, and He empowers us to a more Christ like life...something we could not do on our own. But the very fact that the bible has all these passages urging us to work towards humility, and compassion, and love and consideration for others...etc, etc, just shows us that Christians are not, and will not be perfect in this life time. We need instruction, edification, encouragement to continue our walk.

We are not just seen as perfect...that is a fallacy that stems from a reaction to the Roman system by the reformation. We BECOME the righteousness of God in Christ...not WE just appear to be this righteous. The gospel has real power but not the power to deceive God as to our true condition. Rather the power of the gospel causes us to walk even as He walked (This from 1 John 2)

You really must provide scripture to back up a belief system that limits followers of Christ to not become ACTUALLY cleansed from all sin.

I do not believe that Jesus comes to us at times to make us perfect, then withdraws again. First, it's not taught in scripture, and second, He tells us He is with us forever. That the Spirit is with us forever. There are times, the bible teaches us, and life backs this up; that we hold Hand and walk with Him, following Him and obeying Him. And there are times that we drop His hand and fall. The onus is all on us...we are sinful, He is not. And all the benefit you speak of, can be received by just building our relationship with Him and reading His word, learning who He was and how He lived.

Paul does not say..you are filled with the Spirit but BE filled with the Spirit. The Galatians weren't doing this. I am simply seeking to encourage this.

Some of your ideas have merit...yes we are add to our character, that is in scripture. Yes, we are to love and help others...that is in scripture. Yes, we are to walk with Jesus and learn everything from Him...that too is in scripture. But I can't help but feel that you are then taking an added step that is not in scripture, in suggesting that we can be perfect in this life, in this body. That Jesus will 'live in us' and everything we do, think and say will be perfect. These ideas are not found in scripture. Sure, the phrases 'in Christ' is found everywhere, and has precious, precious meaning. But I cannot see it meaning what you say it does...quite simply because then it would be contradicting other scriptures that say we still sin.

What sin do we do when we are abiding in Christ? Do we have a sinful Saviour?

Jesus' blood cleanses us from ALL unrighteousness...not just partially until we die. How we walk AFTER that cleansing depends on our characters...how deeply we walk in Christ depends on our faith. Do all Christians walk on water? So if one does then does that make it somehow wrong? Or should we see the work of Christ in us as a body ministry where one finds a breach in the wall for others to follow?

Edited by Episkopos, 30 April 2012 - 09:09 PM.