19 replies to this topic

[UHCAIan]

My pastor declared to the church Sunday during morning Worship service after someone publically confessed something they did before the whole congregation, that if anyone gossipped, spread rumors, or talked of the members confession before the church to anyone else that God Himself would "hush" or silence them. Do pastors have that authority to declare something like that over the congregation?

[Episkopos]

My pastor declared to the church Sunday during morning Worship service after someone publically confessed something they did before the whole congregation, that if anyone gossipped, spread rumors, or talked of the members confession before the church to anyone else that God Himself would "hush" or silence them. Do pastors have that authority to declare something like that over the congregation?

No.

[BiggAndyy]

He has the Scriptural authority to remind them that gossip and rumor mongering is sinful and should not be done by Believers. However, he does not have authority to call down judgement from God upon those who break that breech of trust shown in the midst of fellow believers.

[jiggyfly]

If you yield to it as many do, but it's basically religious malarkey. There is no new covenant scriptures stating that pastors are in charge and/or authority over everyone else. The whole clergy/laity system is a falsehood of man, modeled after the old covenant style of temple worship.

[savedbygrace05]

My pastor declared to the church Sunday during morning Worship service after someone publically confessed something they did before the whole congregation, that if anyone gossipped, spread rumors, or talked of the members confession before the church to anyone else that God Himself would "hush" or silence them. Do pastors have that authority to declare something like that over the congregation?

Absolutely not. Godly pastors have the authority (God given) to warn, rebuke, remind etc of what God's word actually says, but it must always be in love and with a view to restoring. It seems that in your case the pastor went beyond both Scripture and his God given authority.

[aspen2]

Pastoral authority was given to the disciples by Christ.

[Brothertom]

My pastor declared to the church Sunday during morning Worship service after someone publically confessed something they did before the whole congregation, that if anyone gossipped, spread rumors, or talked of the members confession before the church to anyone else that God Himself would "hush" or silence them. Do pastors have that authority to declare something like that over the congregation?

If we look at the scripture for guidance, we will see that the only place in the New testament where a singular Pastor was positioned over the entire church is in 3John. In this, he is branded a heretic [ divider ] by John, and soundly rebuked.

"I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church."

In every other instance of Pastors, it is plural. [Elders and Pastors are the exact same word in the original ]. There is no such thing as a one man authority/Pastor in the New Testament church, except by the traditions of men. So, I see your Pastor as possibly trying to promote a good thing, in nipping gossip and back-biting in the bud, but overboard in his boldness in perceiving the bounds of his own authority. Perhaps he was thinking of scaring the bar-jesus out of everyone, and perhaps, it worked.

God did give authority to men as elders, over and under the church. ....Jesus speaks;

" And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve."

We are to submit to these ordained ones as they watch for our souls. The duty of the elders is simple.

1.] Feed the Church of God.

2.] Protect the church of God.

3.] Manifest the utter Lordship of Jesus of Nazareth wherever you may go in, and out of the church.

Saying this, I think he meant well, but I wouldn't be lookin for thunderbolts too soon.

[Templar81]

He ahs teh authority to teach his flock that gossip is wrong but he cannot invoke God's judgement on anyone.

[prism]

Is the pastor in this case accountable to any elders?

[UHCAIan]

Yes. Our District Elder was present and from there the pastor is subject to the District Board of Elders, then District Bishop and finally the General Board of Elders for the UHCA Inc. then if really serious Bishops' Council. Our District Elder was present in service when my pastor spoke this, he didn't say a thing. Dont get me wrong my pastor is a lover of all people and does teach and preach the word of God. I believe that pastor may have allowed the flesh to come out there do to frustration as Moses did to the Israelities with the rock. Gossip is a problem at the church. As an associate minister at my church I can understand pastor's frustration but it could have been handled a different way.

[neophyte]

Hebrews 13:17 , That is the reason that Jesus commanded St. Peter in Matt. 16: 15-19 as His temporary shepherd [ s ] as in successive future shepherds being also included, until the Real Shepherd returns.
"Jesus said to Simon Peter , "Feed my lambs ... feed my sheep ... feed my sheep... '' [ John 21: 15-17 ]

[veteran]

All the office names have been confused throughout Christian history.

A pastor's job is primarily to teach, and was associated with either the office of presbyter (from priest) or bishop. A pastor along with the elders, bishops, and deacons does... have authority over the congregation per the NT. The pastor would not act alone in disciplining someone in the congregation, nor should he desire to act alone. Every word is to be established by two or more witnesses, that's God's Way.

With a small congregation, only a pastor and a few deacons might be those in authority over that congregation, so the size of the congregation can have a lot to do with this. I know some Churches that have a full time pastor that teaches The Bible line upon line, and that's all he does. They have evangelists that only preach The Gospel Message, and then ministers that see only to the administration and visit the sick.

[jiggyfly]

If we look at the scripture for guidance, we will see that the only place in the New testament where a singular Pastor was positioned over the entire church is in 3John. In this, he is branded a heretic [ divider ] by John, and soundly rebuked.

"I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church."

In every other instance of Pastors, it is plural. [Elders and Pastors are the exact same word in the original ]. There is no such thing as a one man authority/Pastor in the New Testament church, except by the traditions of men. So, I see your Pastor as possibly trying to promote a good thing, in nipping gossip and back-biting in the bud, but overboard in his boldness in perceiving the bounds of his own authority. Perhaps he was thinking of scaring the bar-jesus out of everyone, and perhaps, it worked.

God did give authority to men as elders, over and under the church. ....Jesus speaks;

" And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve."

We are to submit to these ordained ones as they watch for our souls. The duty of the elders is simple.

1.] Feed the Church of God.

2.] Protect the church of God.

3.] Manifest the utter Lordship of Jesus of Nazareth wherever you may go in, and out of the church.

Saying this, I think he meant well, but I wouldn't be lookin for thunderbolts too soon.

Very good post Brothertom, like the layout too, easy to read.

Here's another related saying of Jesus instructing His disciples.
"Don't let anyone call you 'Rabbi,' for you have only one teacher, and all of you are equal as brothers and sisters.

[neophyte]

Hebrews 13 v 17

[jiggyfly]

Hebrews 13 v 17

Who would say has rule over you? Is it one who has been to seminary, or is it one who has ordination and licensed by the state?

[neophyte]

jiggyfly, you asked:" Who would say has rule over you ?" My answer to that is: One who is ordained the biblical way.
you must read both Hebrews 4:14-5:1-4; Matt. 28: 18-20

As we can see from this verse 2 Cor; 5:20 - Jesus in order to contnue His sanctifying work on earth, Jesus established the Priesthood, through the sacrament of Holy Orders--- "On behalf of Christ,therefore, we are acting as ambassadors,God, as it were, appealing through us "

Regarding monks and nuns, the Old Testament records people who took special vows of consecration to God (Nazirites, Num. 6), the Old Testament equivalent of monks and nuns. In the New Testament, Anna the prophetess seems to have lived like a cloistered nun, as "she did not depart from the temple, worshiping with fasting and prayer night and day" Luke 2:37. Paul tells us of an order of widows devoted to good works who had vowed to not marry again 1 Tim. 5:9—12.

Jesus ,of course, is our High Priest , yes Jesus was a priest; Heb. 2:17.

The Apostles were the first priests and they consecrated/ordained other priests ,for example Paul, Barnabas, Timothy, Titus and Matthias. Acts 13:3, 14:22, 1:24-26 and Titus 1:5. The apostles ordained priests the biblical way [ which is the only correct way, for those who qualify ] by praying for them and imposing hands on them.

This" authority" of the priesthood comes directly from Jesus , the Second Person of the Holy Trinity- "He who hears you, hears me; and he who rejects you, rejects me; and he who rejects me, rejects Him who sent me "== Luke 10 v 16. also with the authority to forgive sins - John 20:23

Only a bishop can give the Sacrament of Holy Orders ;- " For this reason I left thee in Crete, that thou shouldst set aright anything that is defective and shouldst appoint presyters in every city, as I myself directed thee to do "-- Titus 1 v 5.

It is necessary that only qualified men become priests , those men who have graduated from a four year collage or university and have studied in a seminary for at least four years--- " Do not lay hands hastily upon anyone"-- 1st Timothy 5: 22

Why are priests called 'Father"
Note- many non-Catholics who object to the Catholic custom of calling priests "Father" forget that in the same passage of Matt. 23: 1-12 , Christ also says "Call no man teacher". Yet these same non-Catholics call many people teacher, and commonly use the word "doctor/ physician " which is the Latin word for "teacher".

We find in 1st Corinthians 4:14- 15,where St. Paul tells us that we may have many guides to Jesus but that we do not have many "fathers".
Remember that Abraham was called 'father'.

Other verses that mention "fathers '' --Acts 7 v 2, Acts 7 v 38-39, Acts 7: 44- 45, Acts 7: 51-53.

Edited by neophyte, 07 May 2012 - 01:59 PM.

[jiggyfly]

Had a feeling it was going to be a religious answer. We are all priests in the new covenant unlike the man-made clergy laity system.

[aspen2]

I am seriously considering becoming a monk

[rjp34652@yahoo.com]

My pastor declared to the church Sunday during morning Worship service after someone publically confessed something they did before the whole congregation, that if anyone gossipped, spread rumors, or talked of the members confession before the church to anyone else that God Himself would "hush" or silence them. Do pastors have that authority to declare something like that over the congregation?

The guy was probably trying to put the fear of God into folks by trying to coerce them into behaving like people who actually loved one another.

Bad move. Nice try as they say, but no cigar.

Your pastor lost the game before he finished his sentence. In actual fact, you can't trust a whole church full of people to act like one responsible person. There's always somebody there who is willing to gossip or to use the power of the confession as a weapon. And its a terrible weapon. Your pastor knows that quite well because guess who's going to have to calm ruffled feathers and repair fences later on?

A confession, by its very nature, puts a persons heart and reputation on the line. It exposes the jugular, the soul and the mind all at once. NEVER NEVER NEVER trust a church with such valuable and potentially damaging information, because sooner or later it WILL be used against you. Ask your pastor if my assessment is out in left field somewhere or if its on target.

The Bible says that Christians would be known by their love for one another. That sort of reputation, if it ever really existed, is long gone folks. In actual fact we are less like angels and more like vultures, feeding on the dying carcass of the injured among us. Even pastors are not immune from this sort of treatment. Many's the man who's been crucified by his own church.

Now I'm sure that there will be a few who read this that will object to the strong language here. If so, then I highly recommend a few worthwhile hours perusing the documents at apostacywatch.com. It's a quick study on the degeneration of our generation in church.

Only the naive will believe the church is a place where love lives among the communicants. Certainly the pastor doesn't believe it, else he wouldn't have felt the need to give such a warning, misplaced though it might have been.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

Had a feeling it was going to be a religious answer. We are all priests in the new covenant unlike the man-made clergy laity system.

You misunderstand the scripture when you say that. We are NOT all priests like the clergy system. Some are leaders, some are teachers, some are musicians, some are just lurkers feeding on the efforts of others. Actually most. Ever hear of the rule of 80's and 20's? Twenty percent of the people do 80 percent of the work. That means that eighty percent of church members are little more than bottom feeders. But I digress.....

What the scripture means by its reference to high priests is that we do not need anyone to intercede before God on our behalf. Christ has opened the way by being Himself a high priest for us, one who's ear we have. That's as far as it goes.

The principle of shepherding stands hard and fast in the N.T. St. Paul even fills out the benefits and responsibilities of such a position. The Bible gives strict warnings to the shepherds to do their task well. No such warning is given to those who suckle the teats. Finally, I've often observed that those who cry loudest that they are 'priests' usually have no idea what they're talking about, what ministering to a church is all about, or what the study and love of God is all about - because if they did, they'd be out running their own church.

You can't run a church and enjoy the show for nothing at the same time. Consider the logic when you say you want to be a priest.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited by rjp34652@yahoo.com, 08 May 2012 - 11:26 PM.

[jiggyfly]

You misunderstand the scripture when you say that. We are NOT all priests like the clergy system. Some are leaders, some are teachers, some are musicians, some are just lurkers feeding on the efforts of others. Actually most. Ever hear of the rule of 80's and 20's? Twenty percent of the people do 80 percent of the work. That means that eighty percent of church members are little more than bottom feeders. But I digress.....

What the scripture means by its reference to high priests is that we do not need anyone to intercede before God on our behalf. Christ has opened the way by being Himself a high priest for us, one who's ear we have. That's as far as it goes.

The principle of shepherding stands hard and fast in the N.T. St. Paul even fills out the benefits and responsibilities of such a position. The Bible gives strict warnings to the shepherds to do their task well. No such warning is given to those who suckle the teats. Finally, I've often observed that those who cry loudest that they are 'priests' usually have no idea what they're talking about, what ministering to a church is all about, or what the study and love of God is all about - because if they did, they'd be out running their own church.

You can't run a church and enjoy the show for nothing at the same time. Consider the logic when you say you want to be a priest.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

I think you misunderstand my post, and misread it. I said "unlike the clergy/laity system" not "like the clergy/laity system".

I never said I wanted to be a priest, you must have me confused with someone else. I don't participate in religious liturgy and meeting anymore. I personally don't have need for any titles in order to help others or the need to have "my own church".

Is it possible that you too are misunderstanding the scriptures concerning "shepherding". The scriptures indicate that the leadership within the ekklesia is always plural and are elders, those who are spiritually mature.

We seem to disagree on much so see no need to go on about it. Happy church running to ya.