237 replies to this topic

[HollyRock]

I used to think that you could'nt lose your salvation but now I'm not so sure..can someone help me out here ?

Edited by HollyRock, 30 April 2012 - 10:54 PM.

[ttruscott]

I used to think that you could'nt lose your salvation but now I'm not so sure..can someone help me out here ?

No, there is only faith...no knock-you-down proof, shrug. Heb. !!:1

Peace, Ted

[neophyte]

Ted, this is what the Holy Bible tells us about how we could lose our salvation-

Heb. 7:27, 9:12,26;10:10; 1 Pet 3:18 - Jesus died once and redeemed us all, but we participate in the application of His redemption by the way in which we live.
Heb. 9:12 - Christ's sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God's doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of "once saved, always saved," such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.
Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the "hope" (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?

[Templar81]

If you stop beleving then yes of course you can.

[Episkopos]

This question is not the right way to put it. You could ask..Is it possible for me to forsake God? the answer is..of course!

[ttruscott]

What does election mean? GOD chose YOU to be conformed to the image of HIS son; Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

chosen to bring forth fruit, John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit,;

chosen to be holy, Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

HIS choice fulfilled by grace; Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace;

chosen for salvation; 2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

chosen to adoption; Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

chosen to be justified and glorified; Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Do I have to know why GOD wrote the way HE did in your verses? Not really...yours carry no more weight of proof of your interpretation than mine, :shrug:

but I speculate that they are designed to
1. keep us focused on our sanctification to hurry the process to holiness (2 Peter 3:11 - Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of GOD.) so the judgment day need not be postponed (the Wheat and the Tares) any longer.

or

2. to give us a hint of the nature of the tares, those who bear the mark of Cain, those who love religion but not the LORD, those who follow tradition but not the Holy Spirit and giving us assurance about their utlimate end.

Peace, Ted

[veteran]

I used to think that you could'nt lose your salvation but now I'm not so sure..can someone help me out here ?

There are some that are predestinated to faithfully serve Christ, and Jesus already... literally 'owns' those (like His Apostles and disciples of His first coming - see John 17). For the last days, those are represented by believers that have already been 'sealed' in prep against the "hour of temptation" (the coming temptation by a false messiah). In other words, no matter what, they will not fall away from Christ to bow to the coming false messiah by mistake. They will gladly make themselves subject to death if necessary to keep from bowing to the false one, like Daniel and his fellows.

Then there are those who come to Christ Jesus through 'their' word (preaching; again per John 17). And they are to become joined with the saints which The Father predestinated to Jesus. But the difference with these is, they must... go through a specific testing, which is about the "hour of temptation" for our generation, and these can fall away IF they choose to because of Satan's deceptions that God allows for this time, thus becoming the "five foolish virgins".

For those in that second group per John 17, you are indeed 'called'... by Christ Jesus. And as long as you keep the Faith and stay in Christ Jesus to the end, not being deceived by the false messiah yet not fearing death, then you are among Christ's elect, and you have a crown of glory to look forward to. But listen to the false prophets in the world (and there are many today), and turn away from Christ Jesus and His Word, then that is a rejection of His calling you. And He will not have rejected you, it is you that will have rejected Him.

So if you are called, then have no fear of falling away, and no doubt about your 'calling' to be in Christ Jesus. You can feel as solid as this earth about it. But you must stay... dilligent in listening to our Lord Jesus and His Word, and continually compare what He said with what His enemies are saying, and be aware of the difference so as to remain undeceived. You must do this even if a family loved one is deceived, even if your own children are deceived to bow to the coming false one.

[Episkopos]

There are some that are predestinated to faithfully serve Christ, and Jesus already... literally 'owns' those (like His Apostles and disciples of His first coming - see John 17). For the last days, those are represented by believers that have already been 'sealed' in prep against the "hour of temptation" (the coming temptation by a false messiah). In other words, no matter what, they will not fall away from Christ to bow to the coming false messiah by mistake. They will gladly make themselves subject to death if necessary to keep from bowing to the false one, like Daniel and his fellows.

Then there are those who come to Christ Jesus through 'their' word (preaching; again per John 17). And they are to become joined with the saints which The Father predestinated to Jesus. But the difference with these is, they must... go through a specific testing, which is about the "hour of temptation" for our generation, and these can fall away IF they choose to because of Satan's deceptions that God allows for this time, thus becoming the "five foolish virgins".

For those in that second group per John 17, you are indeed 'called'... by Christ Jesus. And as long as you keep the Faith and stay in Christ Jesus to the end, not being deceived by the false messiah yet not fearing death, then you are among Christ's elect, and you have a crown of glory to look forward to. But listen to the false prophets in the world (and there are many today), and turn away from Christ Jesus and His Word, then that is a rejection of His calling you. And He will not have rejected you, it is you that will have rejected Him.

So if you are called, then have no fear of falling away, and no doubt about your 'calling' to be in Christ Jesus. You can feel as solid as this earth about it. But you must stay... dilligent in listening to our Lord Jesus and His Word, and continually compare what He said with what His enemies are saying, and be aware of the difference so as to remain undeceived. You must do this even if a family loved one is deceived, even if your own children are deceived to bow to the coming false one.

I agree with Veteran here. Some have been pre-selected as it were and are already sealed. Most, however, are open to whichever course they freely choose.

[HammerStone]

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.

I'll be totally honest here. I've struggled with this issue.

For a long time, I held to a belief much like Veteran and Episkopos espouse where we have those called (IE: Paul) and then those who seem to have free will (thief on the cross). I think there is too much tension - and Paul's blatant example - to say it's all a matter of free will. I think God has reasons to know who he can trust, and I think it's beyond our full understanding why Saul was struck down on the road to Damascus. I have my reasons that I believe God chose Paul in this time. If he knows the heart, and the Bible says that he does, then he does know the choices we will make.

I had my Pastor pose the statement that let it click for me. If salvation was an on-again, off-again thing, then that would suggest that the work that Jesus did on the cross was not enough. Now I realize the covenant argument, but the Bible is very clear that God draws people to himself (look at what Jesus and the Holy Spirit have done as well as what's said in passages like John 6:44). The Bible is also very clear that Jesus is everything.

I read a story today about a mainline-denomination Pastor who lost her faith. I don't want to say she had it and now does not, and I don't want to say that she never had it to begin with. However, I think we can get caught up in emotions and movements and think we have the real thing, but eventually that feeling subsides and suddenly its not there. I'm just no longer of the mind that someone who experienced the grace of God can suddenly lose it. At the end of the day, if we can lose it, that means we must work to keep it. That's not consistent with the Gospel of Jesus, because he himself said it's done. We believe yes, but we are drawn. That's why most of us can walk outside and see God's handwriting on the walls of nature. It's why we get excited about little things that show God in some form or another.

It still involves the ultimate choice, as we have to believe, but I think it goes beyond our understanding of the specifics. I think it's okay that people see a little bit differently on this issue, as well. The problems come when it's polarized.

I will caution that there is a balance to understanding this aspect of our faith, and we have to understand passages in James in context. Perhaps the best person I've read on this issue would be Spurgeon, because he talked about a balance between our assured salvation and yet still being a vibrant faithful member. I quote James in saying, faith without works is dead, but I echo passages where Jesus/God/Holy Spirit have all said the work is done by Jesus alone, and not us.

[Jon-Marc]

Personally, I believe that I was given ETERNAL life when I accepted Christ and NOT temporary life until my next sin. Obtaining or keeping salvation is NOT up to me. Jesus bought salvation and ETERNAL life on the cross. He died ONCE, and we only need to be saved ONCE! God's forgiveness and salvation is FOREVER! My Saviour is perfectly capable of keeping me saved in spite of myself and my imperfections. As a T shirt I have reads, "I'm not perfect--yet! Just forgiven!" People want to limit God and seem to have the idea that He needs our help to sa ve us and keep us saved when "All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags."

[historyb]

I used to think that you could'nt lose your salvation but now I'm not so sure..can someone help me out here ?

Yes I think one can lose their salvation. A person can walk away because we have free will, being saved is not a prison or being in leg chains

[veteran]

One thing's for sure, when our Lord Jesus returns... then we will begin to understand why He divinely intervened with Saul (Paul) and converted him against his own free will; why He told Jeremiah the prophet that He knew him before he was in his mother's womb; why Abraham was called "Friend of God"; why He chose Jacob over Esau, even before either child was in the womb, neither having chance yet to do good or evil, etc., etc., etc. Then we all will understand the concept of His election.

[MR ROSENBERGER]

Of cause you can loose your salvation as Satan is always at your door ready to lead you away from the Lord and into the darkness.
I have seen many people loose there way as it's just like the parable of the sower.

[BiggAndyy]

Can You Lose Your Salvation?

Not if you keep it in a shoe box under your bed...

[veteran]

God promised He would deliver His people out of the hands of the wicked. And that means those who have believed on Him through His Son Jesus Christ, and those of His people of Israel that He foreordained before the foundation of this world. But how many of those will appear spiritually naked and in shame, having lost their garments when He comes? His Word reveals quite a few, simply because they allowed themselves to be deceived by listening to doctrines of men instead of Him in His Word. So it's not proper per God's Word to think that any of us who fall to that should go unpunished when He returns.

Luke 12:45-48
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, 'My lord delayeth his coming'; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
(KJV)

[aspen2]

All relationships can be lost - even the internal relationship between our true self and the false self. If we continue to follow the way of the first Adam (the way of the false self) rather than throwing him off (throwing off the Old Man) and following the second Adam (following Jesus with our true selves as we were created to do) we will die. Jesus will tell all people on the path of the first Adam to depart because He only knows those who know Him (those who have responded to His love and are equipped by Him to live through their true selves).

It used to frighten me that I could lose my salvation if my relationship with Christ wasted away; but only because I was falsely taught that somehow, I was responsible for the relationship!! As if, I could un-believe in Him who loves me or blink and suddenly be unsaved. Daily and conscious devotion to the Old Adam is the only way to renounce our relationship with God - remember - He wants to be in relationship with us! All we are required to do is get out of Jesus's way - stop resisting His work in our hearts. A humble heart is a vulnerable heart, which is also a heart that can receive and give unconditional love. This is why God loves a humble heart - this is the sacrifice that God prefers over animal sacrifices in Psalms 51.

A person must lose themselves to experience God's love and salvation.

The old campfire song 'One Tin-Soldier' is corny AND accurate. We win by losing. Blessed are the Meek - the vulnerable - they will know God.

Edited by aspen2, 02 May 2012 - 01:58 AM.

[HollyRock]

It is very scary to think that salvation can be lost...it gives me the mindset that I have to do works to keep it when I know I can never live up to that. How can a recreated, born-again spirit be un-born again ? I have to rely totally on Jesus, other wise I am in big trouble. Thanks everyone for your posts, they are helping me a great deal...It's good to see you back with us aspen2

Edited by HollyRock, 02 May 2012 - 02:29 AM.

[aspen2]

It is very scary to think that salvation can be lost...it gives me the mindset that I have to do works to keep it when I know I can never live up to that. How can a recreated, born-again spirit be un-born again ? I have to rely totally on Jesus, other wise I am in big trouble. Thanks everyone for your posts, they are helping me a great deal...It's good to see you back with us aspen2

Salvation is not a possession. Salvation is experienced. We experience it as soon as we begin an eternal relationship with Jesus. Losing our salvation is willfully deciding to work for our damnation by following our desires. It takes work to be damned - it takes sacrifice (vulnerability) to be saved.

[HollyRock]

Salvation is not a possession. Salvation is experienced. We experience it as soon as we begin an eternal relationship with Jesus. Losing our salvation is willfully deciding to work for our damnation by following our desires. It takes work to be damned - it takes sacrifice (vulnerability) to be saved.

So what happens to the born-again spirit when salvation is lost, does it just become darkened, does it return to it's former state un-alive unto God ?

[aspen2]

So what happens to the born-again spirit when salvation is lost, does it just become darkened, does it return to it's former state un-alive unto God ?

Being born again is not a one time experience. We are born again every time we experience God's love for us. Experiencing this love is what allows us to go out and love others. Jesus tells us to pick up our cross and follow him daily. The only way we can sacrifice ourselves daily is by experiencing His love daily. Jesus was born again every second of the day - not to possess his salvation (He was already sinless because He loved perfectly), but simply because he was in perfect unity with God.

Prayer, worship, meditation, contemplation are all born again experiences - they transform our souls by opening ourselves to experience God's love. All we have to do is show up - God takes care of the rest.

Edited by aspen2, 02 May 2012 - 03:16 AM.

[neophyte]

Very good explanation aspen2.

[7angels]

Being born again is not a one time experience. We are born again every time we experience God's love for us. Experiencing this love is what allows us to go out and love others. Jesus tells us to pick up our cross and follow him daily. The only way we can sacrifice ourselves daily is by experiencing His love daily. Jesus was born again every second of the day - not to possess his salvation (He was already sinless because He loved perfectly), but simply because he was in perfect unity with God.

Prayer, worship, meditation, contemplation are all born again experiences - they transform our souls by opening ourselves to experience God's love. All we have to do is show up - God takes care of the rest.

please show me in scripture where being born again happens over and over. the word teaches us to renew our minds but where does it say we are to be born again over and over again?

[Foreigner]

The answer is yes, you can lose your salvation.

[aspen2]

please show me in scripture where being born again happens over and over. the word teaches us to renew our minds but where does it say we are to be born again over and over again?

The Bible describes the experience of being born again throughout the NT. It is not specific about how many times it happens to a person. It certainly does not limited the experience to a one time event. Paul talks about being transformed through a renewing of the mind so that we are not conformed to the world - that is certainly a daily, sometime minute by minute process. I certainly would not want to limit being born again to the utterance of a formulaic, static, nonbiblical phrase like 'Jesus come into my heart'.God is not a Jinn who wants to hear the magic phrase before granting our wish. Instead, our relationship with God is a dynamic, mind / heart / will bending experience where we are transformed daily.

Marriages are born again all the time when couples recognize their love for each other in a new way.

Every time a person was healed or responded to Jesus in a new way in the NT account, they were born again.

I think we can get the wrong idea about what Jesus was talking about when He used the phrase 'born again', if we see it as an instant justification / sanctification, 'now you are a transformed saint', 'instant citizen of heaven' kind of way. Nicodemus is an example of someone who misunderstood Jesus when he took the phrase too literally by asking how a person could enter his mother's womb for the second time (John 3:4), and we can be guilty of misunderstanding, as well, if we try to bog down the phrase in too much theology. Being born again simply refers to transformation of the heart that can only happen through revelation from God.

Edited by aspen2, 02 May 2012 - 10:16 AM.

[HollyRock]

Being Born-Again means your spirit has been made alive unto God. It is the point when God's Spirit and nature takes up residence within our human spirit creating a new man within us. This is different from renewing our minds. Our spirit has been changed at the new birth but not our minds/our soul. We have to renew our minds with the Word of God, but again, this is different from the new birth experience because pursuing and obtaining the mind of Christ is an ongoing process. My son will always be my son, he does not need to be born again to become my son nor could he.

Edited by HollyRock, 02 May 2012 - 02:35 PM.

[7angels]

the answer to the question of whether of not we can lose our salvation is as follows.

look at matt 10:22 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake, but he who perseveres and endures to the end will be saved [^[g]from spiritual disease and death in the world to come]. this verse shows us that we need to persevere and endure in order to be saved. so then if we do not persevere and endure then we will not be saved. it is not how we start our relationship with Christ that really matters but how we end our lives with or without Jesus.

heb 3:12 [Therefore beware] brethren, take care, lest there be in any one of you a wicked, unbelieving heart [which refuses to cleave to, trust in, and rely on Him], leading you to turn away and desert or stand aloof from the living God. this verse is referring to apostasy. which is the departing or turning away. this is a deliberate and willful choice.

phil 3:10 says [For my determined purpose is] that I may know Him [that I may progressively become more deeply and intimately acquainted with Him, perceiving and recognizing and understanding the wonders of His Person more strongly and more clearly], and that I may in that same way come to know the power outflowing from His resurrection [^[b]which it exerts over believers], and that I may so share His sufferings as to be continually transformed [in spirit into His likeness even] to His death, [in the hope] shows us what we as christians should be striving to know more of Christ.

with that said we now know that in order to fall away from God we had to of been with God at one time. if we were with God at some point in our lives then we had to of been saved.

heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible [to restore and bring again to repentance] those who have been once for all enlightened, who have consciously tasted the heavenly gift and have become sharers of the Holy Spirit, ⁵And have felt how good the Word of God is and the mighty powers of the age and world to come, ⁶If they then deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance--[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance, for (because, while, as long as) they nail upon the cross the Son of God afresh [as far as they are concerned] and are holding [Him] up to contempt and shame and public disgrace.
shows us that those that fell away as long as they hold Christ responsible we cannot bring back. again these people had to of been saved at one point in their lives in order for this to happen to them.

heb 10:26-31 says For if we go on deliberately and willingly sinning after once acquiring the knowledge of the Truth, there is no longer any sacrifice left to atone for [our] sins [no further offering to which to look forward]. ²⁷[There is nothing left for us then] but a kind of awful and fearful prospect and expectation of divine judgment and the fury of burning wrath and indignation which will consume those who put themselves in opposition [to God]. ²⁸Any person who has violated and [thus] rejected and set at naught the Law of Moses is put to death without pity or mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. ²⁹How much worse (sterner and heavier) punishment do you suppose he will be judged to deserve who has spurned and [thus] trampled underfoot the Son of God, and who has considered the covenant blood by which he was consecrated common and unhallowed, thus profaning it and insulting and outraging the [Holy] Spirit [Who imparts] grace (the unmerited favor and blessing of God)? ³⁰For we know Him Who said, Vengeance is Mine [retribution and the meting out of full justice rest with Me]; I will repay [I will exact the compensation], says the Lord. And again, The Lord will judge and determine and solve and settle the cause and the cases of His people. ³¹It is a fearful (formidable and terrible) thing to incur the divine penalties and be cast into the hands of the living God!

shows us the same thing that these people knew Christ and are going to be judged harshly.

i hope this helps

God bless

[neophyte]

St. Paul wrote, "I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified [Gk. dedikaiomai ] it is the Lord who judges me" (1 Cor. 4:4). Concerning his remaining life, Paul was frank in admitting that even he could fall away: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27)

Philippians 2:12 says, "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence,work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." This is not the language of self-confident assurance. Our salvation is something that remains to be worked out.

The"Church" taught me to say this when asked ," Are you saved? "-

This is the way I was taught to answer as a Catholic,my reply would be: "As the Bible says, I am 'already saved '(Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also 'being' saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I 'will be' saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."

[aspen2]

Being Born-Again means your spirit has been made alive unto God. It is the point when God's Spirit and nature takes up residence within our human spirit creating a new man within us. This is different from renewing our minds. Our spirit has been changed at the new birth but not our minds/our soul. We have to renew our minds with the Word of God, but again, this is different from the new birth experience because pursuing and obtaining the mind of Christ is an ongoing process. My son will always be my son, he does not need to be born again to become my son nor could he.

All experiences of God are a re-birth. Of course, your son will always be your son, but there are going to be moments in his life when that relationship takes on a special meaning for him. This is the awe and wonder we are called to have which is often referred to as fear in the OT.

We sure want to tie up this salvation agreement in a hurry - best way to get the best deal! Unfortunately we are not buying a new car or trying to get the best fixed rate on a mortgage - salvation is not a product or a possession - it is a transformation of our being and it does not happen instantly. No relationship has that quality about it. People who has been happily married for 50 years have a deeper, more meaningful relationship with each other than people who have been married for 50 minutes.

St. Paul wrote, "I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified [Gk. dedikaiomai ] it is the Lord who judges me" (1 Cor. 4:4). Concerning his remaining life, Paul was frank in admitting that even he could fall away: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27)

Philippians 2:12 says, "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence,work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." This is not the language of self-confident assurance. Our salvation is something that remains to be worked out.

The"Church" taught me to say this when asked ," Are you saved? "-

This is the way I was taught to answer as a Catholic,my reply would be: "As the Bible says, I am 'already saved '(Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also 'being' saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I 'will be' saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."

I like this response - time is taken out of the equation. We are being born, reborn and kneeing in front of God's throne in Heaven at the same time.

Edited by aspen2, 02 May 2012 - 04:46 PM.

[HollyRock]

All experiences of God are a re-birth. Of course, your son will always be your son, but there are going to be moments in his life when that relationship takes on a special meaning for him. This is the awe and wonder we are called to have which is often referred to as fear in the OT.

We sure want to tie up this salvation agreement in a hurry - best way to get the best deal! Unfortunately we are not buying a new car or trying to get the best fixed rate on a mortgage - salvation is not a product or a possession - it is a transformation of our being and it does not happen instantly. No relationship has that quality about it. People who has been happily married for 50 years have a deeper, more meaningful relationship with each other than people who have been married for 50 minutes.



I like this response - time is taken out of the equation. We are being born, reborn and kneeing in front of God's throne in Heaven at the same time.

aspen2, you are confusing the rebirth with the renewing of our minds. The first is a one time experience while the second is a process as we learn and grow in the Word and any new experiences that we may have during this growing process occurs in the soul and not multiple born-again experiences. Hebrews 6:4-6...and even when a person rededicates their life to God, it does'nt mean they are being born-again again, they are simply making a dicision to recommit their lives to the born-again experience that they already have sealed within them.

Edited by HollyRock, 02 May 2012 - 05:12 PM.

[aspen2]

aspen2, you are confusing the rebirth with the renewing of our minds. The first is a one time experience while the second is a process as we learn and grow in the Word and any new experiences that we may have during this growing process occurs in the soul and not multible born-again experiences. Hebrews 6:4-6

I am not claiming that a renewing of our minds is the only form of rebirth - that would be gnostic. It is merely an example of the rebirthing experience. Turning towards God is repentance and rebirth - turning away from God and relying on ourselves is sin and calls for repentance. Every time we repent we experience God's mercy and a rebirth (experience of God) - so is it worth sinning just so we can experience God's love and mercy all over again? Not according to Paul.

It is better to be vulnerable with God as much as possible by sacrificing our tendency to turn away even when it is difficult. We need all the sanctification we can get.