237 replies to this topic

[Episkopos]

Being born again is not a one time experience. We are born again every time we experience God's love for us. Experiencing this love is what allows us to go out and love others. Jesus tells us to pick up our cross and follow him daily. The only way we can sacrifice ourselves daily is by experiencing His love daily. Jesus was born again every second of the day - not to possess his salvation (He was already sinless because He loved perfectly), but simply because he was in perfect unity with God.

Prayer, worship, meditation, contemplation are all born again experiences - they transform our souls by opening ourselves to experience God's love. All we have to do is show up - God takes care of the rest.

This is a romantic idea not a biblical one. The bible should not be used for a human inspiration.

[aspen2]

This is a romantic idea not a biblical one. The bible should not be used for a human inspiration.

Well, then we continue to disagree on this point. Apparently, God is a romantic

[ttruscott]

This is a romantic idea not a biblical one.

What is biblical idea, please?

Peace, Ted

Edited by ttruscott, 03 May 2012 - 04:04 PM.

[prism]

First of all it is not 'our' salvation. Salvation belongs to the Lord.Psalm 3:8
Then we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:4
And we were sealed as His until that Day. Ephesians 1:13.

To leave you with one other Scripture that has helped me when I went through a similar ringer...
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
(Rom 5:10)

See, not only by His death were we saved, but by His life (perfect obedience) we shall be saved. In other words our salvation is dependent on Him and His perfect work from first to last, not us, lest any should boast.

Edited by prism, 03 May 2012 - 10:44 PM.

[neophyte]

Yes you can lose your salvation;

I'm sorry to inform you but as according to Holy Scripture we can lose our salvation, that is, if we do not presevere to the end of our lives. We can chose[ free will ] to fall away .

Prism, one of the verses you used [ Rom. 5: 9-10 ] you misunderstand,let me explain, because since we are justified by the His Blood , we "shall" be saved, [ future tense ] if we persevere.

2 Tim. 4:8 – I believe that you as a Protestants often use this verse to prove “once saved, always saved,” even in the face of all Paul wrote about the possibility of losing his salvation (including his). But it is only at end of St. Paul's life that he has a moral certitude of salvation. This is after a lifetime of perseverance. As faithful believers in Christ, we indeed have a moral certitude of our salvation, but this is different from being certain of our salvation. We must persevere throughout our lives, and can choose to fall away.
Also, Catholics have more assurance of salvation that those who espouse “once saved, always saved.” This is because the only distinction between a true Christian and a superficial Christian is that the superficial Christian will not persevere to the end – but this is something a Christian cannot know during his life, and this necessarily imposes uncertainty upon him until the end. For Catholics, we know that salvation is ours to lose. For “once saved, always saved” Protestants, they don’t even know whether it is theirs to begin with.
Rom. 11:29 – “the gifts and the call of our God our irrevocable.” Some Protestants use this to prove “once saved, always saved.” But this verse has nothing to do with our response to salvation. It deals with God’s unmerited gifts and call to us. Moreover, if a person is in “the elect,” then his salvation is irrevocable. But we can never know if we are in the elect during our lives (“the elect” only deals with God’s knowledge).
Rom. 14:4 – and he will be upheld, for the Master is able to make him stand. This is another verse Protestants use to prove “once saved, always saved.” But the verse speaks only to what God is able to do. It does not address what the person is free to do (accept God’s grace or reject it).

[prism]

In your books freewill of man trumps God's Will.
We have passes out of judgment into His.glorious liberty and life.

[neophyte]

Our choices are still ours and are still free. If our free choices change how the future will be, God already knows that and has known it for all eternity.
A person still exercises his/her own free will in choosing how to respond to their God given graces. We are redeemed because Jesus freely chose to suffer and die for us . There can be no love without the free choice to love. Jesus of course also had free will , because God cannot give what He does not have.

[HollyRock]

You get Born-Again...you walk away from God...what happens to your Born-Again spirit ?

[aspen2]

Being born again isn't a magic trick. It is divine inspiration that leads to salvation.

[logabe]

God promised He would deliver His people out of the hands of the wicked. And that means those who have believed on Him through His Son Jesus Christ, and those of His people of Israel that He foreordained before the foundation of this world. But how many of those will appear spiritually naked and in shame, having lost their garments when He comes? His Word reveals quite a few, simply because they allowed themselves to be deceived by listening to doctrines of men instead of Him in His Word. So it's not proper per God's Word to think that any of us who fall to that should go unpunished when He returns.

Luke 12:45-48
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, 'My lord delayeth his coming'; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
(KJV)

So let me get this right... these beatings must be before God annihilates or torments
them. Does it really matter... being they will all be tormented or annihilated anyway...
or is that going to be their judgment.

I know what I did to my son when he was disobedient, and I did it because I loved
him, and wanted him to become a good and responsible person when he got older.

I guess my point is... if God is going to kill them anyway... why beat them... I don't
think God would do something without purpose... like beating them just for the sake
of a beating. Can someone help me understand exactly what God is going to do?


Logabe

[veteran]

So let me get this right... these beatings must be before God annihilates or torments
them. Does it really matter... being they will all be tormented or annihilated anyway...
or is that going to be their judgment.

I know what I did to my son when he was disobedient, and I did it because I loved
him, and wanted him to become a good and responsible person when he got older.

I guess my point is... if God is going to kill them anyway... why beat them... I don't
think God would do something without purpose... like beating them just for the sake
of a beating. Can someone help me understand exactly what God is going to do?

Logabe

Are you really that deceived that you cannot even read that part of the Luke Scripture as to whom He said it to? Can you not understand Jesus was saying that about His servants, and not about the unbelieving?

The idea He used in Revelation about one of His servants losing their 'garments' and appearing in shame doesn't mean He's not going to still save them. The Luke 12 example above is to His servants who believe on Him, yet either fall away or are deceived.

Those of His servants who knew His Will but didn't follow it will be under a stronger discipline by Him when He returns than those of His that were deceived only. Those still belong to Him, but they are going to bear their iniquity in shame during His future Millennium reign.

That is exactly one of the points in Ezekiel 44 about the priests involving the Millennial Sanctuary. Only those who remain faithful to Christ Jesus all the way to the end will be of the Zadok priests. Only they will be allowed to approach Him in that time. But the Levites who went astray when Israel went astray, they will bear their iniquity, yet they are still shown there having been saved, and doing menial service in the Sanctuary. Those Levites will not be allowed to approach Jesus in that time.

[logabe]

Are you really that deceived that you cannot even read that part of the Luke Scripture as to whom He said it to? Can you not understand Jesus was saying that about His servants, and not about the unbelieving?

I have a problem with your answer... 2nd Peter 2:21 says,

21 For it would be better for them not to have
known the way of righteousness, than having
known it, to turn away from the holy
commandment handed on to them.

Since I am so confused... why is God giving them in Luke another chance,
but it sounds like Peter has pretty much condemned these believers. They
have turned away from the truth just like his other servants. Explain the
difference please. Ezekiel 18:24-29 says,

24 "But when a righteous man turns away from
his righteousness, commits iniquity and does
according to all the abominations that a wicked
man does, will he live ? All his righteous deeds
which he has done will not be remembered for
his treachery which he has committed and his sin
which he has committed ; for them he will die.
29 "But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the
Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house
of Israel ? Is it not your ways that are not right ?

Veteran... you can't have it both ways... are these people goin to die or not?
If God is going to raise them up and correct them, as you have said, then
why want He do the same for all people.

As I have said, all will bow and all will confess, and that simply makes them
ex-sinners. Do you believe the gospel... confess and submit to the words of
the Lord, isn't that salvation?

The idea He used in Revelation about one of His servants losing their 'garments' and appearing in shame doesn't mean He's not going to still save them. The Luke 12 example above is to His servants who believe on Him, yet either fall away or are deceived.

I agree with you a 100%, God will correct all of the wicked Israelites that
commit abominations against Him, isn't that exactly what Ezekiel said?

Those of His servants who knew His Will but didn't follow it will be under a stronger discipline by Him when He returns than those of His that were deceived only. Those still belong to Him, but they are going to bear their iniquity in shame during His future Millennium reign.

Now we're getting somewhere... I also believe God has different judgments
for different crimes against His Word. But like I said above... do you think
God is a respecter of persons, because I believe after the unbelievers repent,
God will do the same for them in the Ages to come. That's His Plan... that is
how God will be ALL IN ALL.


That is exactly one of the points in Ezekiel 44 about the priests involving the Millennial Sanctuary. Only those who remain faithful to Christ Jesus all the way to the end will be of the Zadok priests. Only they will be allowed to approach Him in that time. But the Levites who went astray when Israel went astray, they will bear their iniquity, yet they are still shown there having been saved, and doing menial service in the Sanctuary. Those Levites will not be allowed to approach Jesus in that time.

You do understand what you are saying? These are priest and God will have
mercy on them... people that studied the scriptures daily and knew better. The
judgment for their crime will be servants in the house of God. Yet, the poor
sinners that didn't know anything about God, whether they outright hated God,
or just didn't want any part of Him, they will be annihilated. Is that really the
LOVE of God. To have different weights and measures, and judge people who
don't even know Him more severely than someone who does.

Let's reason together... and put down our doctrines that say God isn't fair. You
know God is LOVE and He will leave the 99 and go get the one. He will accept
his son that has been wallowing with the pigs. He will have a feast for him, but
his brother will judge him harshly, and will be jealous of his Father giving his
brother all the attention. Let's don't be that way, but let's rejoice when God brings
him home.


Logabe

Edited by logabe, 06 May 2012 - 09:50 AM.

[Jon-Marc]

I'm so glad I don't have the same Saviour that some here seem to have--One who takes back His forgiveness, love, and salvation every time we sin. My Saviour gave me ETERNAL life that I will NEVER lose. The ONLY thing I lose when I sin is my fellowship with my heavenly Father. He chastises me just as my earthly father did when i did wrong. However, i don't cease to be the son of my heavenly Father any more than I ceased being the son of my earthly father. I praise God that His love and forgiveness are everlasting!

[neophyte]

God is the same God for everybody,The difference is that some believe only in the Sacrafice of the Cross 'alone' and bypass Christ's three year ministry to His apostles.Those Teachings to His apostles along with the Holy Bible and the Blood of the Cross, Resurrection etc. are 'all' required to be a Christian with the "Fullness of the Faith.
God -breathed is also the oral Words to His first ministers/teachers/prespyters/priests apostles/successors not only for those 1st century Christians but also for all future generations of Christians, sorry ,if I'm getting a little off track from the topic of thread.
The Church's teaching on losing one's salvation ,from the Holy Bible, we see in Romans 5: 1 that some think that we can not lose our salvation '' since we have been justified through faith" that this peace with God is permanent, not exactly , if we move on to the next verse 5 v 2 we see where if we rejoice in the "hope" [ you are being presumptuous to believe that you can not lose your salvation ] of sharing the eternal bliss with Jesus/God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would St. Paul "hope" ?
Romans 5:5 in this verse, this"hope" does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. As St.Paul explains, our hope is assured if we' persevere to the end'.
Rom. 8:24, - this "hope' of salvation that St. Paul writes about is unnecessary if salvation is guananteed. If salvation is guaranteed, then why "hope" ?
Matt 7:21 and Matt. 25: 31-46 not all who say "Lord,Lord " will be saved.

Edited by neophyte, 09 May 2012 - 11:54 AM.

[ttruscott]

I will share what this topic is for me...from my pre-conception existence pov:

First I see election and the gospel as promises to us before we made our true free will choice to accept HIS will for our lives or to go off on our own way against HIS warnings. All the verses about our election and Christ's being chosen before the foundation of the world refer to this pre-earthly creation experience.

Election was offered as a free gift to all who bowed to HIS purpose and will, and the gospel gift of salvation was offered as the fulfillment of election if any elect should fall into sin after becoming elect. These gifts were offered before anyone chose or sinned or did any good works.

So, can any elect be lost forever? NO, or GOD fails in HIS promise.

The problem is not with the system but with the fact that on earth we now have sinful fallen elect and the non-elect living together. Some of the non-elect live under the mark of Cain, the trappings of false Christianity and satanic religion. This causes discrepancy when verses meant for one group are taken to apply to the other group. As well, the non-elect are here to teach us about the suffering so sin and their relentless pursuit of and addition to evil so that we may become holy, that is ready to bring the judgment day upon them, as per the parable of the wheat and the tares.

It is a fact that many verses in scripture on any topic are open to a vast multitude of interpretations which seem contradictory. This is done so that we must seek the leading of the Holy Spirit in all things - the realtionship with GOD is more important than our scholarship. Every so often GOD does a sweeping out of HIS church, a cleansing of the temple as it were, by suddenly revealing a "right turn" in scriptural interpretation. This separates those who follow HIM out from the merely religious in the chuch who do not know the leading of the Holy Spirit but have learned to fake it very well. When the righteous follow the spirit, it can leave those religious like the Pharisees and Saducces to quibble over which false doctrine is the best....but Christ has left the building.

It is like the parable of the sower: Mark 4:3-9
And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended. And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, and the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

This is the description of those with the mark of Cain for whom the warnings about falling away from grace apply. They are not under the promise of election but they infest the church and often control it. But so they do not give up on false hope and turn against the church in terrorist rampage, they are treated in scripture as if election had no force and they can rest secure.

So I believe, 'Once Elect, Always Saved' to coin a phrase and leave the intricacies of personal salvation here on earth to GOD and the leading of HIS Holy Spirit.

Peace to all, Ted

Edited by ttruscott, 09 May 2012 - 04:06 PM.

[veteran]

I agree with you a 100%, God will correct all of the wicked Israelites that
commit abominations against Him, isn't that exactly what Ezekiel said?


Now we're getting somewhere... I also believe God has different judgments
for different crimes against His Word. But like I said above... do you think
God is a respecter of persons, because I believe after the unbelievers repent,
God will do the same for them in the Ages to come. That's His Plan... that is
how God will be ALL IN ALL.

That is exactly one of the points in Ezekiel 44 about the priests involving the Millennial Sanctuary. Only those who remain faithful to Christ Jesus all the way to the end will be of the Zadok priests. Only they will be allowed to approach Him in that time. But the Levites who went astray when Israel went astray, they will bear their iniquity, yet they are still shown there having been saved, and doing menial service in the Sanctuary. Those Levites will not be allowed to approach Jesus in that time.

You do understand what you are saying? These are priest and God will have
mercy on them... people that studied the scriptures daily and knew better. The
judgment for their crime will be servants in the house of God. Yet, the poor
sinners that didn't know anything about God, whether they outright hated God,
or just didn't want any part of Him, they will be annihilated. Is that really the
LOVE of God. To have different weights and measures, and judge people who
don't even know Him more severely than someone who does.

Read through the Ezek.44 chapter and you'll see what I'm talking about. There's TWO separate groups of priests mentioned there. The Zadok (Just) vs. the Levites. It is shown there that only the Zadok priests will be allowed to come near Christ to serve Him in that Millennium time. Yet the Levites will still exist and bear their iniquity of falling away by serving the people and doing menial chores in care of the House. One could say figuratively, those Levites who fell away going to be scrubbing the potty bowls. In other words, Jesus is going to make sure they serve the people like they were supposed to have done, and they will do it while bearing their shame.

Now if you don't understand that, then it's because you STILL HAVE NOT READ IT, and are only going on like you know what Ezek.44 states when you don't know.

Let's reason together... and put down our doctrines that say God isn't fair. You
know God is LOVE and He will leave the 99 and go get the one. He will accept
his son that has been wallowing with the pigs. He will have a feast for him, but
his brother will judge him harshly, and will be jealous of his Father giving his
brother all the attention. Let's don't be that way, but let's rejoice when God brings
him home.

Logabe

I don't know where in the world you get that erroneous idea that any of this is about God being unfair. It's just the opposite. It reveals what our Lord Jesus said, each will receive according to their works.

If you're BLINDED by God Himself, like a portion of Israel has been according to Paul in Rom.11, so His Salvation could also go to the Gentiles, then it means your spiritual eyes and ears are closed regarding Jesus of Nazareth being The Messiah. It's that simple. So don't tell me you cannot see that kind of blindness mostly among the unbelieving Jews today. (Yet it is not upon them only).

Since God blinded them, and that is the cause of their disbelief in ignorance, then how can God properly judge them? That blindness means they don't have a CHANCE to believe.

Most of the Churches that disregard the full weight of what Paul taught in Rom.11 about that always assume that everyone... born during this present world have their eyes and ears open so they can believe on Jesus Christ. Not so according to Paul in Rom.11 per the "spirit of slumber" Message.

Edited by veteran, 09 May 2012 - 06:26 PM.

[mark s]

I used to think that you could'nt lose your salvation but now I'm not so sure..can someone help me out here ?

Do we agree that all prophetic passages will be fulfilled? There are many many proofs from Scripture that when you have been born again it is forever.

But a simply place to look at is this:

Colossians 3:1-4 ESV
(1) If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
(2) Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth.
(3) For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
(4) When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

IF (or SINCE) you have been raised with Christ . . . you have died . . . you will appear with Him in glory.

This is a prophetic passage. If you are one who has been raised with Christ - See Romans 6 - you are one who has died with him. If this is you, then here is what is prophesied for you:

You will appear with Christ in glory when Christ appears.

If anyone who has been born again does not appear in glory with Christ when He appears, then this passage becomes unfulfilled and therefore untrue. That will not be.

There is much much more . . .

Love in Christ,
Mark

You get Born-Again...you walk away from God...what happens to your Born-Again spirit ?

What happens if you rebel against your earthly parents? Does it change the fact of your birth? That you were born from them, and are therefore human?

You've been born of God.

Let me ask this.

If you rebel against God . . . God forbid . . . Does that behavior (thought/words/deeds) come from the Old Nature - the flesh, or the New Nature - the New Creation?

I would answer that it comes from the old nature. And if that is the case, then this is simply part of all the other sins that were judged, paid for, and forgiven through the cross.

You've still been born of God. In the resurrection, your old nature, and all of its works, will be forever gone. The new nature, now in a new body, will remain.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[HollyRock]

Do we agree that all prophetic passages will be fulfilled? There are many many proofs from Scripture that when you have been born again it is forever.

But a simply place to look at is this:

Colossians 3:1-4 ESV
(1) If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
(2) Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth.
(3) For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
(4) When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

IF (or SINCE) you have been raised with Christ . . . you have died . . . you will appear with Him in glory.

This is a prophetic passage. If you are one who has been raised with Christ - See Romans 6 - you are one who has died with him. If this is you, then here is what is prophesied for you:

You will appear with Christ in glory when Christ appears.

If anyone who has been born again does not appear in glory with Christ when He appears, then this passage becomes unfulfilled and therefore untrue. That will not be.

There is much much more . . .

Love in Christ,
Mark



What happens if you rebel against your earthly parents? Does it change the fact of your birth? That you were born from them, and are therefore human?

You've been born of God.

Let me ask this.

If you rebel against God . . . God forbid . . . Does that behavior (thought/words/deeds) come from the Old Nature - the flesh, or the New Nature - the New Creation?

I would answer that it comes from the old nature. And if that is the case, then this is simply part of all the other sins that were judged, paid for, and forgiven through the cross.

You've still been born of God. In the resurrection, your old nature, and all of its works, will be forever gone. The new nature, now in a new body, will remain.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Thank you mark s...the Word you shared was very helpful in my understanding of if a person can lose their salvation or not.

[mark s]

I think this knowledge is extremely powerful in living a victorious, fruitful, and joy-filled life in Christ.

God bless you!!!

[neophyte]

One must do something" grave"as with the grave matter of mortal sin to break one's salvation with God and become his enemy. That is why mortal sins break peace with God, but venial sins don't.Jesus gave His apostles along with all of their future successors,
[ presbyters/priests ] the power to forgive these sins [ John 20:19- 23 ] The Bible tells us that some sin is deadly/grievous. Remember the Words of Jesus from God's Bible when He said " Whose sins YOU shall forgive, they are forgiven. " -- when a Catholic priest forgives your sins he does it with permission from Jesus "For what I have pardoned ... I have done it in the person of Christ" [ 2nd Corinthians 2:10 ] when Jesus gave them all authority [ Luke 10:16 ] and all of His Authority to forgive sin [ John 20:23 ] This confession of our sins can be found way before, [ OT] Jesus implamented His Authority only to His apostles/successors
"He who conceals his sins prospers not , but he who confesses and forsakes them obtains mercy" [ Proverbs 28:13 ]

[Foreigner]

Remember the Words of Jesus from God's Bible when He said " Whose sins YOU shall forgive, they are forgiven. " -- when a Catholic priest forgives your sins he does it with permission from Jesus "For what I have pardoned ... I have done it in the person of Christ" [ 2nd Corinthians 2:10 ] when Jesus gave them all authority [ Luke 10:16 ] and all of His Authority to forgive sin [ John 20:23 ]

-- There are so many things wrong with the assumptions made in this statement that it is difficult to know where to begin.

You do not NEED to confess your sins to a priest in order to receive forgivenss.
Jesus Himself said so when He told us how to pray DIRECTLY to God the Father.
"Forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us"

IF forgiveness via a priest was needed, only the small group within the Catholic church that still goes to Confession would be saved.
The rest of the world would be doomed.
That is definitely NOT the case.

But you also miss the obvious Catch-22 involved in all of this:

If you need a priest's forgiveness and you confess what you know are sins, but you aren't really sorry for them, the priest saying your sins are forgiven would have to mean then that they ARE forgiven regardless of your level of actual repentance.

If you say that since that person's heart wasn't truly sorry so their sins won't be forgiven, then the priest really DOESN'T have the power to forgive sins.

The fact is this: If you have sinned and are truly sorry, you can speak to God alone - directly - ask forgiveness, and those sins are forgiven. End of story.

God does something the priests simply aren't able to do. He reads the heart.
If he sees you are truly sorry, that is all He needs.
Since he already was tortured and killed to pay the price for those since, there is no pennance you need to pay.

He throws those sins as far as "the east is from the west" and He remembers them no more.

No priest.
No Confessional.
No "Say 10 'Our Fathers' and 20 'Hail Marys.'"

And more importantly, no people leaving the Confessional wrongly believing they have been washed clean of their sins regardless of their heart's condition simply because the priest said so.

[differentDemocrat]

The Bible is pretty clear on renouncing The Holy Spirit or blaspheming The Holy Spirit. It sends you to hell

[logabe]

Read through the Ezek.44 chapter and you'll see what I'm talking about. There's TWO separate groups of priests mentioned there. The Zadok (Just) vs. the Levites. It is shown there that only the Zadok priests will be allowed to come near Christ to serve Him in that Millennium time. Yet the Levites will still exist and bear their iniquity of falling away by serving the people and doing menial chores in care of the House. One could say figuratively, those Levites who fell away going to be scrubbing the potty bowls. In other words, Jesus is going to make sure they serve the people like they were supposed to have done, and they will do it while bearing their shame.

Now if you don't understand that, then it's because you STILL HAVE NOT READ IT, and are only going on like you know what Ezek.44 states when you don't know.





I don't know where in the world you get that erroneous idea that any of this is about God being unfair. It's just the opposite. It reveals what our Lord Jesus said, each will receive according to their works.

If you're BLINDED by God Himself, like a portion of Israel has been according to Paul in Rom.11, so His Salvation could also go to the Gentiles, then it means your spiritual eyes and ears are closed regarding Jesus of Nazareth being The Messiah. It's that simple. So don't tell me you cannot see that kind of blindness mostly among the unbelieving Jews today. (Yet it is not upon them only).

Since God blinded them, and that is the cause of their disbelief in ignorance, then how can God properly judge them? That blindness means they don't have a CHANCE to believe.

Most of the Churches that disregard the full weight of what Paul taught in Rom.11 about that always assume that everyone... born during this present world have their eyes and ears open so they can believe on Jesus Christ. Not so according to Paul in Rom.11 per the "spirit of slumber" Message.

Veteran, I have read it and I believe you are missing a very important point. These
Priest lost their position because they were stealing the tithes and having sex in the
Tabernacle. I don't mean to to be harsh, but that is a very heinous crime in the
eyes of God. 1st Sam. 2:22 says,


22 Now Eli was very old ; and he heard all that his
sons were doing to all Israel, and how they lay with
the women who served at the doorway of the tent
of meeting.

At what point do you qualify to either be annilated or tormented for your crimes against
God. Do you think the sons of Eli qualify for this type of treatment? In Ezekiel 44:10-13
God says,

10 But the Levites who went far from Me, when Israel
went astray from Me after their idols, shall bear the
punishment for their iniquity...
13 And they shall not come near to Me to serve as a
priest to Me, nor come near to any of My holy things, to
the things that are most holy; but they shall bear their
shame and their abominations which they have
committed.

So these idolatrous priests are said to be limited to the “outer court” to minister
to men only (44:14) and are not allowed into the Sanctuary to minister to God
Himself.

14 "Yet I will appoint them to keep charge of the
house, of all its service and of all that shall be done
in it.

That is a far cry from being annilated or tormented in hell for eternity. We have
to be missing something here. God's character and nature isn't as harsh as we
might think. We see that God 's Judgment on the Levites wasn't near the way
we might have thought God should have done it. We have to quit establishing
our own idols of what we think God is according to our own carnal mind, and
just look @ the facts in the Word.


Logabe

[differentDemocrat]

Yeshua does make it very clear that if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit or renounce Christ that gives you a one way ticket downstairs...

[Blazn2hvn53]

I don't believe you can lose your salvation but you can fall out of fellowship with God. We spent a lot of time in bible study discussing this. We had a pastor/teacher that believed that but our Head Pastor believes you fall out of fellowship when you decide to stop calling on Him or praying (going back to the world's thinking & actions) but when you repent with a sincere heart, you restore your relationship with the Lord. I choose to believe that and try my best to stay on the right path and recognize when I fall, I can ask for forgiveness. Thank God for do-overs (grace & mercy).

[HollyRock]

I don't believe you can lose your salvation but you can fall out of fellowship with God. We spent a lot of time in bible study discussing this. We had a pastor/teacher that believed that but our Head Pastor believes you fall out of fellowship when you decide to stop calling on Him or praying (going back to the world's thinking & actions) but when you repent with a sincere heart, you restore your relationship with the Lord. I choose to believe that and try my best to stay on the right path and recognize when I fall, I can ask for forgiveness. Thank God for do-overs (grace & mercy).

But what if a person dies before they repent, does their former born-again experience still hold ?

[veteran]

Veteran, I have read it and I believe you are missing a very important point. These
Priest lost their position because they were stealing the tithes and having sex in the
Tabernacle. I don't mean to to be harsh, but that is a very heinous crime in the
eyes of God. 1st Sam. 2:22 says,


22 Now Eli was very old ; and he heard all that his
sons were doing to all Israel, and how they lay with
the women who served at the doorway of the tent
of meeting.

At what point do you qualify to either be annilated or tormented for your crimes against
God. Do you think the sons of Eli qualify for this type of treatment? In Ezekiel 44:10-13
God says,

10 But the Levites who went far from Me, when Israel
went astray from Me after their idols, shall bear the
punishment for their iniquity...
13 And they shall not come near to Me to serve as a
priest to Me, nor come near to any of My holy things, to
the things that are most holy; but they shall bear their
shame and their abominations which they have
committed.

So these idolatrous priests are said to be limited to the “outer court” to minister
to men only (44:14) and are not allowed into the Sanctuary to minister to God
Himself.

14 "Yet I will appoint them to keep charge of the
house, of all its service and of all that shall be done
in it.

That is a far cry from being annilated or tormented in hell for eternity. We have
to be missing something here. God's character and nature isn't as harsh as we
might think. We see that God 's Judgment on the Levites wasn't near the way
we might have thought God should have done it. We have to quit establishing
our own idols of what we think God is according to our own carnal mind, and
just look @ the facts in the Word.


Logabe

Since you're taking that kind of approach, trying to bring other ideas like 1 Sam.2:22 'into' the Ezek.44 Scripture, I guess I'm forced to cover it line upon line.

Ezek 44:4-24
4 Then brought he me the way of the north gate before the house: and I looked, and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house of the LORD: and I fell upon my face.
5 And the LORD said unto me, Son of man, mark well, and behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears all that I say unto thee concerning all the ordinances of the house of the LORD, and all the laws thereof; and mark well the entering in of the house, with every going forth of the sanctuary.
6 And thou shalt say to the rebellious, even to the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; O ye house of Israel, let it suffice you of all your abominations,
7 In that ye have brought into My sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in My sanctuary, to pollute it, even My house, when ye offer My bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken My covenant because of all your abominations.
8 And ye have not kept the charge of Mine holy things: but ye have set keepers of My charge in My sanctuary for yourselves.
9 Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into My sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.

One of the very first things Israel did with disobeying God, was not destroying the nations of Canaan for their abominations which God had judged them for, and instead allowed them to creep into Israel stay. Israel eventually allowed some of them to become temple servants and even priests later. That was under the Old Covenant history, which only the sons of Levi and Aaron were supposed to have charge in God's house, including the cutting of wood for the altar.


10 And the Levites that are gone away far from Me, when Israel went astray, which went astray away from Me after their idols; they shall even bear their iniquity.
11 Yet they shall be ministers in My sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the house: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.

That means those are going to be under Christ's 'rod' of iron during that time. That's in accord with what Paul taught at the end of Rom.11 about all Israel being saved. Doesn't mean they are destroyed; means those of Israel that fell away are under the rod of discipline, yet still preserved. Those duties are about the 'bull work' of duties of the house.

12 Because they ministered unto them before their idols, and caused the house of Israel to fall into iniquity; therefore have I lifted up Mine hand against them, saith the Lord GOD, and they shall bear their iniquity.
13 And they shall not come near unto Me, to do the office of a priest unto Me, nor to come near to any of My holy things, in the most holy place: but they shall bear their shame, and their abominations which they have committed.
14 But I will make them keepers of the charge of the house, for all the service thereof, and for all that shall be done therein.

Who all does that apply to? The "house of Israel" is put for only the ten lost tribes after Solomon's days. That means the Christian Church. So those include the pastors and elders in Christ's Church today THAT... fall away and lead their Churches astray. Just because we're in a New Covenant era doesn't mean this doesn't apply to Christ's Church today. These will include the fallen leaders in Christ's Church represent the five foolish virgins that Jesus will tell them to get away from Him in that time. That applies to the leaders of orthodox Jews also who had fallen away and misled the other part of Israel known as "the house of Judah" after Solomon's days.



But here... are Christ's elect that reign with Him:

15 But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of My sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from Me, they shall come near to Me to minister unto Me, and they shall stand before Me to offer unto Me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD:
16 They shall enter into My sanctuary, and they shall come near to My table, to minister unto Me, and they shall keep My charge.

The word "Zadok" means 'Righteous'. Christ Jesus is King of Righteousness, and His elect servants are the Righteous, the Just. These are those five wise virgins who did not fall away.


Here's one of their duties at that future time:

Ezek.44:23 And they shall teach My people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.
24 And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to My judgments: and they shall keep My laws and My statutes in all Mine assemblies; and they shall hallow My sabbaths.
(KJV)

The ones who will 'stand in judgment' are the people they will be teaching. Teaching is one of the duties of the priest per the OT. This directly relates to what Jesus told the Church of Philadelphia in Rev.3 that He will make those of the synagogue of Satan to come worship at His elect's feet.

But outside... the gates of the holy city, is the outer darkness Jesus taught about...


Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
(KJV)


Now ALL of that above Scripture timing is for Christ's "thousand years" reign of Rev.20 ONLY.

After that "thousand years", Satan is loosed one final time to tempt the nations, and lead upon that "beloved city" on earth, then Satan and his host are destroyed. Then God's Great White Throne Judgment of those, and anyone's name found in the book of life are joined with Christ's elect. There will be many that will turn to Christ Jesus and be saved then after they've understood with their blindness removed. All those who still... refuse Christ Jesus will go into the "lake of fire" and perish, consumed.

[jiggyfly]

I used to think that you could'nt lose your salvation but now I'm not so sure..can someone help me out here ?

God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy. As a result, you have obeyed him and have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ. All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is by his great mercy that we have been born again, because God raised Jesus Christ from the dead. Now we live with great expectation, and we have a priceless inheritance—an inheritance that is kept in heaven for you, pure and undefiled, beyond the reach of change and decay. And through your faith, God is protecting you by his power until you receive this salvation, which is ready to be revealed on the last day for all to see.
1 Peter 1:2-5 (NLT)

Is salvation the result of anything we ourselves have done? Is our salvation something that we have charge over? Is it possible to lose something before you get it?

[Vaccinius]

NOT GOOD ENOUGH

Some say they lost their faith in God
since they, however they behaved,
in no way could avoid the rod.
They were, though, then, not really saved.

[neophyte]

"By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother" (1 John 3:10), "If any one says, ‘I love God,’ and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen" (1 John 4:20), "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome" (1 John 5:3).