304 replies to this topic

[QRSNER]

When you read the Bible , it is obvious that the letters of Paul are not the same message as the message that Christ sends us, that is, if we assume that we are to emulate Christ.

"When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, 'Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'? When Jesus heard this, he said, 'Healthy people don't need a doctor--sick people do.' (Matthew 9:11-12)

Paul the Apostle says

"When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. (Cor. 5:9-11)

Are we to assume that these brothers who are immoral are to be outcasts in the mind of Paul but for Jesus it is exactly these same people who NEED Christ's love. And doesn't Paul's Christianity assume a Judgemental and holier-than-thou point of view that "I, who am not sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler are outcasting YOU, brother , and I shall not eat with you." ???

Edited by tallycello, 16 May 2012 - 02:27 PM.

[Angelina]

Jesus was referring to the lost sheep of Israel. Paul, being sent to the Gentiles, was referring to Gentiles who call themselves believers.

Shalom!!!

[QRSNER]

I don't buy that - are you really to believe that if the tax collectors and sinners that Jesus ate with were Gentiles , He would not eat with them? He would consider these brothers who lived in sin, outside of the Christian faith? He would not be a "doctor" to the Gentiles who were living in sin?

"let he who is without sin, cast the first stone" (John 8:7)

[Angelina]

Matthew 15 NKJV

A Gentile Shows Her Faith

²¹ Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon. ²² And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.”
²³ But He answered her not a word.

And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.”
²⁴ But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
²⁵Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”
²⁶ But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.”
²⁷ And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”
²⁸ Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Blessings!!!

[QRSNER]

“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.” (John10:16)

1. Are we to try to emulate Christ?
2. Does Jesus work in the hearts and mind of Gentile brothers and sisters who are in sin?

If we are not to emulate Christ then my whole post is meaningless
If Jesus does not work in the hearts and minds of Gentile brothers who are in sin then the purpose of forgiveness of sin is somewhat of a meaningless idea

As for the woman who was healed, it is safe to say that Jesus did not come to only to save those of the house of Israel because as you have quoted, that he heals a woman outside of the house of Israel.



GB

[Angelina]

Please note that the law was still enforce while Jesus was alive. The covenants did not change until he was crucified. Paul is speaking to the Gentile believers after Christ had died and rose again.

As for the woman who was healed, it is safe to say that Jesus did not come to only to save those of the house of Israel because as you have quoted, that he heals a woman outside of the house of Israel.

It was her faith that caused him to bless her thus healing her child. The Lost sheep of Israel were those I believe, who lived by the law but did not receive the promises given to Abraham by faith. They did not recognize Jesus as their Messiah and many still do not today...

Blessings!!!

[QRSNER]

Daughter or the woman, still he heals a Gentile unless I am mistaken. And he grants a Gentile woman's request. There are still many people who do not accept Jesus as the Messiah , that is true as well. I suppose, I am still concerned about the first point and that is with Paul urging the Corinthians not to eat with brothers who are living in sin, is that a good lesson for those of us who wish to emulate Christ? It teaches judgement and a lesson of being holier-than-thou and it hurts Christ's message. There is no doubt that Paul had many good things to say , however, there are Christians who will take Paul's words to be equal to Jesus' teaching and I believe this is a mistake.

Edited by tallycello, 16 May 2012 - 04:34 PM.

[Angelina]

As I understand it, the Corinthian Church began to adopt the ways of the pagan worshipers that surrounded them. Which included temple prostitution and this, I believe, is what Paul was referring to... JMHO

Blessings!!!

[QRSNER]

Right, so this activity may be going on and the response is to cut off the troublemakers away from the other believers. I would assert that that is the same attitude behind distancing oneself from tax collectors and sinners that Jesus was judged for. The entire Christian Church is full of saints and sinners right now as we speak. There are people who are living in sin , but the only saving grace they have is to have Jesus in their lives. A church may turn a person away, just as Paul turned away these people in the example, but I would argue that Christ is here for sinners, as a light to shine on their darkened lives.

Again the initial quote of Jesus
"Jesus answered them, 'It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick."'Luke 5:32

GB

Edited by tallycello, 16 May 2012 - 05:04 PM.

[Angelina]

...and we come back to the beginning of this thread The key to understanding what is mean't here is based on context.

Bless you!

[QRSNER]

Let's agree to disagree then Because, for one, I disagree with the context argument- clearly or I wouldn't have spent time defending my view concerning context...

Take Care,
GB

Edited by tallycello, 16 May 2012 - 05:22 PM.

[Strat]

Cherry pick your bible all you want...heh,everybody's doing it.....we will see in the end whether or not it is all God's word or it isn't and of course we know how easy it is to accept what you like and reject what you don't

Edited by Strat, 16 May 2012 - 06:47 PM.

[QRSNER]

Well, the Christian Church does look to the Old Testament leading to the coming of Christ, but the New Testament is equally , if not more important for how to live a Christian life...it just interests me that Christ , from what was written in the Gospels, is sometimes not in accord with what Paul wrote in his letters and vice versa. That's all I was trying to point out.

Edited by tallycello, 16 May 2012 - 08:15 PM.

[JLB]

Please note that the law was still enforce while Jesus was alive. The covenants did not change until he was crucified. Paul is speaking to the Gentile believers after Christ had died and rose again.



It was her faith that caused him to bless her thus healing her child. The Lost sheep of Israel were those I believe, who lived by the law but did not receive the promises given to Abraham by faith. They did not recognize Jesus as their Messiah and many still do not today...

Blessings!!!

Hi Angelina,

Could you tell me what you mean by this.

Please note that the law was still enforce while Jesus was alive.The covenants did not change until he was crucified.


Thanks and bless you, JLB

Edited by JLB, 16 May 2012 - 08:36 PM.

[Rach]

Hi Angelina,

Could you tell me what you mean by this.

Please note that the law was still enforce while Jesus was alive.The covenants did not change until he was crucified.


Thanks and bless you, JLB

I think she may have meant that for Jesus to fulfil and complete the law and therefore abolish it, He had to live it perfectly first...which He did! The law is there to show us: 1, how Holy God is, and 2, how sinful we are and incapable of living up to a holy God. Jesus came, lived the law perfectly and took our place on the cross. When He had done that, they law was fulfilled.
Just my opinion, she may have meant something else!!

[mark s]

Well, the Christian Church does look to the Old Testament leading to the coming of Christ, but the New Testament is equally , if not more important for how to live a Christian life...it just interests me that Christ , from what was written in the Gospels, is sometimes not in accord with what Paul wrote in his letters and vice versa. That's all I was trying to point out.

That Jesus ate with sinners and tax collectors, and that Paul says don't eat with those who say they are Christians and are openly immoral people isn't a conflict. Two different situations.

And btw . . . we don't do everything Jesus did, that would be foolishness.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[QRSNER]

That's why in my original post I said "if we assume that we are to emulate Christ"- you don't have to do anything Jesus did if that is your choice. I was coming from the perspective that Christianity and Christians strive to be "Christlike" ...Saints have died in the name of Christ, in fact Paul was one of them.

[mark s]

Being Christ-like, and doing everything He did, are two different things. Our nature as a new creature is made like Christ, but we don't forgive sins, for instance.

But my point is that your "conflict" seems a bit artificial, since we're talking apples and oranges. Paul didn't say that we were to separate from those who self-identified as unbelievers, so there is no conflict with Jesus eating with those who were considered sinners.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[veteran]

Paul certainly didn't teach any different Gospel than Christ did, if that's what all this is driving at. Per Acts 9:15, Christ gave Paul the commission to preach The Gospel to 1-Gentiles, 2-kings, and 3-the children of Israel.

Men's doctrines of Dispensationalism have tried over and over to separate Christ's Church apart from God's promises first given to Israel. That's never going to happen.

[QRSNER]

No doubt Paul was a great man and a man of God, but throughout the Bible, there have been different prophets who have given a message of God to the people (often they did not want to hear it). Paul was concerned with building the Church and by building the Church he was clearly concerned that in Corinth, if he did not separate the brothers who were sinners with those who were not, the Church might falter. I am not saying that Paul was not sent to spread the Church, preach the Gospels and do God's work, what I am saying is that there is a clear difference in how Jesus acted and what Jesus said, from how Paul acted and what Paul said- in some instances. One example is the one I began with, Jesus claiming that sinners are in need of a "doctor" i.e. Christ's love and guidance, and Paul who wants to separate the brothers in sin from those he considers worthy of the right to practice Christianity.

Being Christ-like, and doing everything He did, are two different things. Our nature as a new creature is made like Christ, but we don't forgive sins, for instance.

But my point is that your "conflict" seems a bit artificial, since we're talking apples and oranges. Paul didn't say that we were to separate from those who self-identified as unbelievers, so there is no conflict with Jesus eating with those who were considered sinners.

Love in Christ,
Mark

"When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. (Cor. 5:9-11)

Is not the message of Christ that sinners, even sinners who are proclaimed Christian, are those most in need of Christ's love?
Again Jesus says "'Healthy people don't need a doctor--sick people do." (Matthew 9:11-12) So we snub and alienate the brothers who are judged as sinners to preserve the Church that Paul is building? Or do we act as doctors and offer Christ's love to those in sin....

As for being Christlike, or doing what Christ did, I don't think it is beyond the capabilities of us Christians to eat with sinners and welcome sinners in our Churches be they swindlers, drunkards, sexually immoral, greedy etc...the whole point of Christ is to welcome sinners and change their hearts.

GB

Edited by tallycello, 17 May 2012 - 02:44 AM.

[Strat]

No doubt Paul was a great man and a man of God, but throughout the Bible, there have been different prophets who have given a message of God to the people (often they did not want to hear it). Paul was concerned with building the Church and by building the Church he was clearly concerned that in Corinth, if he did not separate the brothers who were sinners with those who were not, the Church might falter. I am not saying that Paul was not sent to spread the Church, preach the Gospels and do God's work, what I am saying is that there is a clear difference in how Jesus acted and what Jesus said, from how Paul acted and what Paul said- in some instances. One example is the one I began with, Jesus claiming that sinners are in need of a "doctor" i.e. Christ's love and guidance, and Paul who wants to separate the brothers in sin from those he considers worthy of the right to practice Christianity.



"When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. (Cor. 5:9-11)

Is not the message of Christ that sinners, even sinners who are proclaimed Christian, are those most in need of Christ's love?
Again Jesus says "'Healthy people don't need a doctor--sick people do." (Matthew 9:11-12) So we snub and alienate the brothers who are judged as sinners to preserve the Church that Paul is building? Or do we act as doctors and offer Christ's love to those in sin....

As for being Christlike, or doing what Christ did, I don't think it is beyond the capabilities of us Christians to eat with sinners and welcome sinners in our Churches be they swindlers, drunkards, sexually immoral, greedy etc...the whole point of Christ is to welcome sinners and change their hearts.

GB

And what do you do when their hearts are not changed and they are inflicting pain on the church...ask the average person what the average preacher or evangelist,TV especially.means to them...they will probably say a womanizing swindler and con man...how do you think that happened ? it happened because church discipline is a thing of the past and the average christian doesn't have the integrity much less the guts to confront anybody about anything because they have no real solid standards for themselves they have none for anybody else.....and they call themselves "christ like" for doing it.

The modern church is drowning in a sea of mik sops,weak willed weak kneed belly crawlers who subject the name of Jesus and his church to every kind of filth imaginable....and call themselves "christ like" for doing it....those who met Jesus had their hearts changed because they met the one who changes hearts,when they meet you or me they are just meeting somebody who is making claims and they have to see if those claims are real,when we are weak and act the same way the world does and allow them to act that way with no response they will walk away or they will see the church as easy pickings and begin devouring the sheep....what a suprise it will be for some people when they realize that Jesus is holy and perfect and that he requires repentance,and a changed life to enter the kingdom of God.....this light,breezy,easy as falling off a log christianity will vanish,the weak,flacis almost effeminate Jesus of people's wicked imaginations will also vanish.

Edited by Strat, 17 May 2012 - 06:32 AM.

[QRSNER]

I believe, Strat, that your feelings were how Paul must have felt in dealing with Corinth. It is painful and difficult for someone who is trying to grow the Kingdom of God and see that there are those who wish to continue and bend the Church into something that suits their needs rather than change who they are. It is also painful to let people go from a Church because you consider them to be unable to change, So Paul was faced with a difficult problem and responded how he thought would best suit Christ's Church. That is no easy task and I suppose that his reason for being called on the road to Damascus was so that difficult decisions such as this one would be on his shoulders and he would have to relay on God and Christ Jesus to make these decisions.

God Bless

[mark s]

It's a simple matter. We can either do what the Bible tells us to do, or not.

Your choice.

[QRSNER]

If that is easy for you to do Mark S. I commend you because it is my experience, doing what the Bible tells us to do is easier said than done. Plus, it is hard for me, personally, to know what the Bible is telling me or asking me to do at times. That is, my understanding is that the bar is set very high in how we are to conduct ourselves in the Judeo-Christian Faith and we fall at times; and, reaching that high standard is often a very difficult road for anyone to reach. In my view, Jesus reached that level of doing what God calls us to do , but for most of us, it is a highly complicated and difficult road.

GB

Edited by tallycello, 17 May 2012 - 12:30 PM.

[accdan]

I think the key is this- did Paul follow Christ? The answer of course is Yes. In following Christ, Paul was instructed to teach and enforce church discipline. So is church discipline from Christ?- Yes.

[brightmorningstar]

Unlike Paul, Christ didnt write any of the NT.
But as has been pointed out, and amongst other contexts, Paul's letters are primarily to Gentiles, not least in Greek culture. The objections and confusion about 'Jesus and Paul' is heavily influenced by a society whose thinking is very much like the Greeks, not least Stocisim and Epicureamism. Thats why they dont like Paul's letters.

[QRSNER]

I think the key is this- did Paul follow Christ? The answer of course is Yes. In following Christ, Paul was instructed to teach and enforce church discipline. So is church discipline from Christ?- Yes.

I believe this to be true as well, I also know that many Christians follow Christ and try to do his work, but being critical of someone who is following Christ is a good way to understand where they are coming from. My original post in my blog tried to look at finding anything that I could question about Jesus, and honestly, I really couldn't find anything wrong. I admit that when I read the letters of Paul, I sometimes question what it is he is saying. That is not to say he wasn't following Christ or God's will, but Paul, as great a man he was, was not perfect (neither am I perfect!). From the responses on here I better understand the difficult situation he was in in Corinth. What do you do if half of the church you founded is living in sin to the point where it is disruptive to the service? That's a tough one for any Christian. Paul made a decision to write a letter telling those who were the Christians who wanted to follow Paul's instructions not to hang around with brothers who were living in sin- and didn't care that they were living in sin.

Edited by tallycello, 17 May 2012 - 02:32 PM.

[HammerStone]

I Corinthians 5:1-2 ESV
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

Context is everything.

I take issue with your assertion of another gospel (Galations 1:8 ESV), because that's a serious charge.

Jesus was dealing with sinners of the world - people who did not know God. Paul is dealing with people who were professed believers within the Corinthian church. People who said they were Christian but were committing egregious sins with that would shock even the most heinous pagan worshiper of the day. Grace is one thing, but Jesus dealt with another group very similar to the wayward believers at Corinth, though their sins weren't the same.

The Pharisees were not exactly someone Jesus pal'ed around with. He frequently rebuked them.

I think you've got to look at the context of the chapter, and then I think it's pretty clear that there is no contradiction.

[QRSNER]

This brings up an interesting point in my mind- when I thought this topic had reached the end to be honest with you. My question is this: Should we hold what Jesus said , in the Bible, to a higher, equal or lesser pedestal to what Paul had to write? We could say that it is all God speaking through them and leave it at that- but I would argue that reading the Beatitudes are the strongest, most wonderful and most beautiful statement anyone on earth has made and certainly comes from a place of deep authority and love. And every word that Jesus speaks , in my mind and heart, has a greater love and compassion for humanity than what Paul has to write in his letters.

What Jesus had to say was greater than what Paul had to say.

Son of God > Apostle/Saint

Edited by tallycello, 17 May 2012 - 03:16 PM.

[veteran]

I believe, Strat, that your feelings were how Paul must have felt in dealing with Corinth. It is painful and difficult for someone who is trying to grow the Kingdom of God and see that there are those who wish to continue and bend the Church into something that suits their needs rather than change who they are. It is also painful to let people go from a Church because you consider them to be unable to change, So Paul was faced with a difficult problem and responded how he thought would best suit Christ's Church. That is no easy task and I suppose that his reason for being called on the road to Damascus was so that difficult decisions such as this one would be on his shoulders and he would have to relay on God and Christ Jesus to make these decisions.

God Bless

It's necessary to read the WHOLE CHAPTER to get the gist of Paul's anger... and then... his other Epistle regarding the fornicator with his own mother in 1 Cor.5...

The Rebuke:

1 Cor 5:1-13
1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
(KJV)


Christ's first coming was to call sinners to repentance. Paul's duty in Christ for those 'within' Christ's Church was discipline and judgment of those in Christ's Body, not sinners outside His Body. So when Paul preached The Gospel to the sinner 'without', that was the SAME application of The Gospel that Jesus did, and thus Paul went directly to sinners with that Gospel.

But for Christ's Body, members 'within', a rebuke and judgment was necessary, OTHERWISE WHAT?

Otherwise, Christ's Body would become NO DIFFERENT than the fallen world 'outside' His Body! And "there's the rub".


THAT difference is NOT an idea that originated from Paul's personal ideas. IT ORIGINATED FROM THE LORD HIMSELF...

2 Cor 6:14-18
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, "Iwill dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be My sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty."
(KJV)


Later in 2 Cor.2, Paul recommends forgiveness after the brother was corrected...

2 Cor 2:1-11
1 But I determined this with myself, that I would not come again to you in heaviness.
2 For if I make you sorry, who is he then that maketh me glad, but the same which is made sorry by me?
3 And I wrote this same unto you, lest, when I came, I should have sorrow from them of whom I ought to rejoice; having confidence in you all, that my joy is the joy of you all.
4 For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be grieved, but that ye might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you.
5 But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all.
6 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.
7 So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.
8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.
9 For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
(KJV)

It is FALSENESS to think Jesus and Paul approached the sinner differently.

It's easy to distinguish that falseness as a doctrine of devils, simply because of what's happening today in many Churches regarding members and sin. Most Churches no longer OPENLY REBUKE members within that are sinning? Now we have Churches that glory... in sin, even flaunting sin! (gay churches). Those churches that do that are what God called 'beth'avens' in the Old Testament, houses of vanity.

So this whole idea that 'tallycello' has brought up here should be WATCHED, CLOSELY. It's an easy tool to play on member's GUILT EMOTIONS FOR REBUKING AND CORRECTING MEMBERS WITHIN CHRIST'S BODY!