304 replies to this topic

[QRSNER]

Weird, you quoted me actually sympathizing with Paul's decision and then said I am in danger of corrupting Christ's Body , or the Church- this is what I said:

"I believe, Strat, that your feelings were how Paul must have felt in dealing with Corinth. It is painful and difficult for someone who is trying to grow the Kingdom of God and see that there are those who wish to continue and bend the Church into something that suits their needs rather than change who they are. It is also painful to let people go from a Church because you consider them to be unable to change, So Paul was faced with a difficult problem and responded how he thought would best suit Christ's Church. That is no easy task and I suppose that his reason for being called on the road to Damascus was so that difficult decisions such as this one would be on his shoulders and he would have to relay on God and Christ Jesus to make these decisions."

God Bless

[mark s]

This brings up an interesting point in my mind- when I thought this topic had reached the end to be honest with you. My question is this: Should we hold what Jesus said , in the Bible, to a higher, equal or lesser pedestal to what Paul had to write? We could say that it is all God speaking through them and leave it at that- but I would argue that reading the Beatitudes are the strongest, most wonderful and most beautiful statement anyone on earth has made and certainly comes from a place of deep authority and love. And every word that Jesus speaks , in my mind and heart, has a greater love and compassion for humanity than what Paul has to write in his letters.

What Jesus had to say was greater than what Paul had to say.

Son of God > Apostle/Saint

No, you are still trying to play the Bible against itself.

To me that expresses an agenda against Scripture.

I guess you really are jaded!

[brightmorningstar]

tallycello,

My question is this: Should we hold what Jesus said , in the Bible, to a higher, equal or lesser pedestal to what Paul had to write?

As has been pointed out your question is error. Jesus didnt write any of the Bible. What you mean is should you, (not we) hold what Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote about what Jesus said as did rather than what Luke, John, Paul, Peter, James and the writer of Hebrews wrote about what Jesus had said and taught.

but I would argue that reading the Beatitudes are the strongest, most wonderful and most beautiful statement anyone on earth has made and certainly comes from a place of deep authority and love.

Many humanists and even atheists would agree with you.

And every word that Jesus speaks , in my mind and heart, has a greater love and compassion for humanity than what Paul has to write in his letters.

Such as in Matthew 23? You blind gudies, you brood of vipers, whitewashed tombs condemned to hell? Do you really think that is loving and compassionate? I do, but I look forward to your response and then I will tell you why.

What Jesus had to say was greater than what Paul had to say.

Let me ask you then, if Luke who wrote the gospel, also wrote Acts which endorses Paul who claimed he preached what he recieved from the risen Lord, are you not treating the witness of someone who didnt encounter Jesus as more reliable than someone who did? Especially as Peter also endorses Paul's writing and Peter was one of Christ's close disciples.

In short you are making the assumption that the gospel writers were a more reliable witness of Christ and Paul only gave his own ideas. You don't even agree with the gospel writers there.

[jiggyfly]

14 When I think of all this, I fall to my knees and pray to the Father, 15 the Creator of everything in heaven and on earth. 16 I pray that from his glorious, unlimited resources he will empower you with inner strength through his Spirit.17 Then Christ will make his home in your hearts as you trust in him. Your roots will grow down into God’s love and keep you strong.18 And may you have the power to understand, as all God’s people should, how wide, how long, how high, and how deep his love is.19 May you experience the love of Christ, though it is too great to understand fully. Then you will be made complete with all the fullness of life and power that comes from God.20 Now all glory to God, who is able, through his mighty power at work within us, to accomplish infinitely more than we might ask or think.21 Glory to him in the church and in Christ Jesus through all generations forever and ever! Amen.

Paul in Eph 3:14-21 (NLT)

I think Paul's writings as all scripture are inspired by the same Spirit that inspired Jesus in His earthly ministry.

Edited by jiggyfly, 18 May 2012 - 05:41 AM.

[Strat]

I believe, Strat, that your feelings were how Paul must have felt in dealing with Corinth. It is painful and difficult for someone who is trying to grow the Kingdom of God and see that there are those who wish to continue and bend the Church into something that suits their needs rather than change who they are. It is also painful to let people go from a Church because you consider them to be unable to change, So Paul was faced with a difficult problem and responded how he thought would best suit Christ's Church. That is no easy task and I suppose that his reason for being called on the road to Damascus was so that difficult decisions such as this one would be on his shoulders and he would have to relay on God and Christ Jesus to make these decisions.

God Bless

Jesus died on the cross for our sins and as sinners we always seem to want more,i spent alot of years asking who don't you do this Jesus and why don't you do that....when Jesus said "it is finished" it completed for all time all that was needed...but in our day we want a new deal,a new plan,more time,more money,more methods.The bible tells now,today, is the time of salvation while we tell people who may be dead in the next 5 seconds that for all practical purposes they have all the time in the world and in the meantine please be amused and entertained by all of our christian alternatives to everything the world offers,Music,Movies,Books,Celebrities of every kind....kiddie cartoons......and courtesy of TBN....A "Holy Land" amusement park complete with rides and Broadway style shows....don't miss the 4 o"clock stage production of the crucifiction starring Jesus,played by (insert name here)....it's all insanity.

Edited by Strat, 18 May 2012 - 10:49 AM.

[QRSNER]

I don't see why holding the words of Jesus to a higher regard than anything else written in the Bible is really such a radical idea. Paul even says in Ephesians:

15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, 16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power in us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 which he accomplished in Christ when he raised him from the dead and made him sit at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come; 22 and he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.


Jesus is Head of the Church and everyone else, including St. Paul is a part of the Body. Now, you could argue that St Paul is the leader of the body of the Church but it is Jesus who stands alone as Lord and Savior and his teachings and words are the words and teachings of one who stands alone as the head of the entire Christian Church. Jesus is Lord- Paul would certainly agree with that as he clearly writes in Ephesians. It is not to say that Paul's writings are not the Holy Spirit working through him, but Paul is not our Lord and Savior and the greatest words and teachings come from our savior , Lord Jesus Christ.

[Strat]

I have seen many methods used to discredit the bible and make null and void the word of God and its power and authority in lives of men....guess i can add another one now.....the words of Jesus.

Edited by Strat, 18 May 2012 - 04:19 PM.

[mark s]

I don't see why holding the words of Jesus to a higher regard than anything else written in the Bible is really such a radical idea.

To say that one part of the Bible is held to a higher regard is to say other parts are to be regarded less. And that de-values God's Word.

So in saying you "hold Jesus' words to a higher regard", you are actually disregarding Jesus' words since God is the Author of Scripture.

You truly don't see this??? How can it be that you do not???

Love in Christ,
Mark

[veteran]

I see a political 'agenda' in his reasoning, like a form of Utopian Universalism.

There are some Churches today that are aligned with a Socialist world view for Christianity, and they desire to strike out all the rebukes and disciplining Scripture examples that keeps a believer on Christ Jesus in His Body The Church under His Authority.

What those do is try to go around... Christ's Authority for His Church, and instead create their 'own' false authority per the tenets of this... world. That movement started in the U.S. back around the 1900's with Socialists creeping into the Church, and we may expect to see a greater version of it for the last days, because it will involve the coming world beast kingdom trying to persuade Christians to join with ALL... religions of the world under one head, the false messiah-antichrist that's coming.

[Axehead]

That's why in my original post I said "if we assume that we are to emulate Christ"- you don't have to do anything Jesus did if that is your choice. I was coming from the perspective that Christianity and Christians strive to be "Christlike" ...Saints have died in the name of Christ, in fact Paul was one of them.

Do you mind if we deal with this concept that we are to "emulate Christ". That is not what the NT teaches. The Christian life is not emulating or imitating Christ. The Christian life cannot be lived by any man and Jesus never taught us to emulate Him.

The Christian life cannot be lived unless one has the indwelling Holy Spirit and then we are to yield to the Lord. Follow Him, hear Him, submit to His leading. We are to bring our wills into harmony with His will.

To emulate or imitate only ends up in religiousness and will not bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit, simply because YOU are the ONE trying to be like Jesus and live the Christian life when the only way to be like Him is to die to self and yield to Him. Then will you be conformed to His image. Everything else will either end in extreme frustration or Phariseeism.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Axehead

Edited by Axehead, 18 May 2012 - 07:49 PM.

[QRSNER]

I was simply pointing out that Jesus is where all the Bible leads to- his life, death and resurrection...I hope we can agree on that much! And furthermore, that Jesus is the most important figure in the Bible....the Alpha and the Omega - the son of our living God! So, in saying that, the works and life of Jesus are the pinnacle and greatest parts of the Bible- remeber The Passion of the Christ? Why was that such a watched movie by Christians? Because of Jesus. That is not to discredit other parts of the Bible in any way , but surely a Christian would find more interest in a movie about Jesus than a movie about Obediah. There is a cross in every Christian Church today to constantly remind us that Jesus is the Lord. I am really just pointing to the obvious. Moses, Paul, Abraham , Jeremiah, David etc ...were all great men of God. I am simply making the "radical" claim that Jesus is above these great men- he is , as we call him , King of Kings and Lord of Lords. That means no other person who has lived before or after is above him.

[mark s]

I was simply pointing out that Jesus is where all the Bible leads to- his life, death and resurrection...I hope we can agree on that much! And furthermore, that Jesus is the most important figure in the Bible....the Alpha and the Omega - the son of our living God! So, in saying that, the works and life of Jesus are the pinnacle and greatest parts of the Bible- remeber The Passion of the Christ? Why was that such a watched movie by Christians? Because of Jesus. That is not to discredit other parts of the Bible in any way , but surely a Christian would find more interest in a movie about Jesus than a movie about Obediah. There is a cross in every Christian Church today to constantly remind us that Jesus is the Lord. I am really just pointing to the obvious. Moses, Paul, Abraham , Jeremiah, David etc ...were all great men of God. I am simply making the "radical" claim that Jesus is above these great men- he is , as we call him , King of Kings and Lord of Lords. That means no other person who has lived before or after is above him.

No.

That's not what you are doing.

You are trying to diminish Paul's writings, though they are just as much inspired Scripture as the rest.

First you asserted a conflict between Paul and Jesus where no such conflict exists:

When you read the Bible , it is obvious that the letters of Paul are not the same message as the message that Christ sends us, that is, if we assume that we are to emulate Christ.

Then you assert that we should not consider Paul's words to be as authoritative or inspired as Jesus' recorded words:

There is no doubt that Paul had many good things to say , however, there are Christians who will take Paul's words to be equal to Jesus' teaching and I believe this is a mistake.

You've reinforced both assertions:

...it just interests me that Christ , from what was written in the Gospels, is sometimes not in accord with what Paul wrote in his letters and vice versa. That's all I was trying to point out.

What Jesus had to say was greater than what Paul had to say.

You are not "simply" saying that Jesus was greater than Paul. You are saying that Jesus' words are greater than Paul's words.

The words of Paul ARE the words Jesus - - - UNLESS you don't believe that Paul's writings were divinely inpired.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Strat]

I was simply pointing out that Jesus is where all the Bible leads to- his life, death and resurrection...I hope we can agree on that much! And furthermore, that Jesus is the most important figure in the Bible....the Alpha and the Omega - the son of our living God! So, in saying that, the works and life of Jesus are the pinnacle and greatest parts of the Bible- remeber The Passion of the Christ? Why was that such a watched movie by Christians? Because of Jesus. That is not to discredit other parts of the Bible in any way , but surely a Christian would find more interest in a movie about Jesus than a movie about Obediah. There is a cross in every Christian Church today to constantly remind us that Jesus is the Lord. I am really just pointing to the obvious. Moses, Paul, Abraham , Jeremiah, David etc ...were all great men of God. I am simply making the "radical" claim that Jesus is above these great men- he is , as we call him , King of Kings and Lord of Lords. That means no other person who has lived before or after is above him.

The passion of the christ was a humansitic play on emotions...in this entertainmernt crazy society we trivialize everything and reduce it to some form of entertainment or amusement that we can grab a bag of chips and a cold beer to....your approach is not so radical...i have heard homosexuals say that because Jesus did not adress homosexuality directly it isn't a sin.I understand if you don't accept the bible as the word of God....many don't....just say so and quit trying to pass yourself off as some cutting edge radical....it's already been done to death.

Edited by Strat, 18 May 2012 - 09:13 PM.

[QRSNER]

Strat- if you read the entire dialogue that I began to where we are now, you will, again see that I agree with you about Paul's decision in Corinth being correct and I understood this better as the debate continued. As for you accusing me as trying to pass myself off as a cutting edge radical- that actually cuts pretty deep as I , like all the people in this debate, are trying to understand my faith better. That implies that I am writing these words for the sake of vanity and , quite frankly, there is only one reason I continue to write back- because I still have the belief that Christians can find truth in Christ and that , although we all differ, that common ground of the Judeo-Christian tradition that we Christians , as well as Jews, are a part of. If you really want to know, I do believe that the Bible is the inspired and "breathed - out" word of God. But like many people, not just us radicals, I believe that some parts of the Bible are more salient than others. That's it.

Edited by QRSNER, 18 May 2012 - 11:21 PM.

[MR ROSENBERGER]

No.

That's not what you are doing.

You are trying to diminish Paul's writings, though they are just as much inspired Scripture as the rest.

First you asserted a conflict between Paul and Jesus where no such conflict exists:



Then you assert that we should not consider Paul's words to be as authoritative or inspired as Jesus' recorded words:



You've reinforced both assertions:






You are not "simply" saying that Jesus was greater than Paul. You are saying that Jesus' words are greater than Paul's words.

The words of Paul ARE the words Jesus - - - UNLESS you don't believe that Paul's writings were divinely inpired.

Love in Christ,
Mark

No one is above their master so Paul etc are not above Christ words at all. so in looking into what Christ says, if one comes to some conclusion that contradicts the message Christ said then it is wrong.
Christ is the foundation and if it contradicts what he says then one is off playing a game with Satan.

[jiggyfly]

I don't see why holding the words of Jesus to a higher regard than anything else written in the Bible is really such a radical idea. Paul even says in Ephesians:

15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, 16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power in us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 which he accomplished in Christ when he raised him from the dead and made him sit at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come; 22 and he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.


Jesus is Head of the Church and everyone else, including St. Paul is a part of the Body. Now, you could argue that St Paul is the leader of the body of the Church but it is Jesus who stands alone as Lord and Savior and his teachings and words are the words and teachings of one who stands alone as the head of the entire Christian Church. Jesus is Lord- Paul would certainly agree with that as he clearly writes in Ephesians. It is not to say that Paul's writings are not the Holy Spirit working through him, but Paul is not our Lord and Savior and the greatest words and teachings come from our savior , Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus said;

“But now I am going away to the One who sent me, and not one of you is asking where I am going.

6

Instead, you grieve because of what I’ve told you.

7

But in fact, it is best for you that I go away, because if I don’t, the Advocate won’t come. If I do go away, then I will send him to you.

8

And when he comes, he will convict the world of its sin, and of God’s righteousness, and of the coming judgment.

9

The world’s sin is that it refuses to believe in me.

10

Righteousness is available because I go to the Father, and you will see me no more.

11

Judgment will come because the ruler of this world has already been judged.

12

“There is so much more I want to tell you, but you can’t bear it now.

13

When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future.

14

He will bring me glory by telling you whatever he receives from me.

15

All that belongs to the Father is mine; this is why I said, ‘The Spirit will tell you whatever he receives from me.’

John 16:5-15 (NLT)

If Paul's writings are inspired of HolySpirit then Paul's writings are indeed the words of Jesus.

Edited by jiggyfly, 19 May 2012 - 12:58 AM.

[James Forthwright]

No one is above their master so Paul etc are not above Christ words at all. so in looking into what Christ says, if one comes to some conclusion that contradicts the message Christ said then it is wrong.
Christ is the foundation and if it contradicts what he says then one is off playing a game with Satan.

Though you & I have been oft at loggerheads, I must commend you, MR. ROSENBERGER on your astute observations on this post. It is unfathomable to believe that EVERY SINGLE PASSAGE that a chief bishop/apostle (Paul) wrote to a half a dozen or so Greek and Roman infant churches and disciples in the First Century is pertinent and equivalent to "the Word of God" for each and every single Christian in the Twenty First Century. The same Holy Spirit that directed the Apostle Paul's council to his churches now resides within our hearts to guide us unto all the truth. I also whole-heartedly agree that Christ is the foundation of the Church, not Paul, Peter or James, etc. One axiom that I've found a useful signpost in pointing to way of the straight and narrow road is "Whenever in doubt, Follow Christ's example".

Strat- if you read the entire dialogue that I began to where we are now, you will, again see that I agree with you about Paul's decision in Corinth being correct and I understood this better as the debate continued. As for you accusing me as trying to pass myself off as a cutting edge radical- that actually cuts pretty deep as I , like all the people in this debate, are trying to understand my faith better. That implies that I am writing these words for the sake of vanity and , quite frankly, there is only one reason I continue to write back- because I still have the belief that Christians can find truth in Christ and that , although we all differ, that common ground of the Judeo-Christian tradition that we Christians , as well as Jews, are a part of. If you really want to know, I do believe that the Bible is the inspired and "breathed - out" word of God. But like many people, not just us radicals, I believe that some parts of the Bible are more salient than others. That's it.

I'd also like to welcome QRSNER to Christianityboard.com forum. Thank you, sir, for your frank and refreshing outlook that you bring to these discussions. Too many posters fail to step out from the majority opinion and ask uncomfortable questions as you have done. Or exercise the simple willingness to admit that they 'don't have all the answers' and come here seeking to be further enlightened by their Christian brethren (at the possible cost of admitting that their own doctrinal positions may contain certain errors). I highly commend you on your quick admission of the logical faults of your initial post and look forward to hearing more from you. You may be 'a bit jaded', QRSNER, but you're also more than a little sagacious and a breath of fresh air here in the Debate sub-forum.

Peace be unto all those who Love the Truth in sincerity!

J.F.

[RichardBurger]

It seems to me that the religious just can't get over their sin problem. They are ruled by their sin problem.

As for me, Jesus took care of my sin problem on the cross. I believe it, I have faith in it, I trust in it and I have confidence it it.

My faith is in the power of God that was in the shed blood of Jesus on the cross to make those of faith children of God.

[veteran]

One of Christ's strongest warnings for us concerning the end of this world was to not allow any man to deceive us. His Apostles carried that same Message of warning, especially Apostle Paul. Apostle Peter went into detail about men's doctrines and itching ears for the last days too. So any preaching that soley focuses upon just a small section of The Bible is a sure way to be deceived, and our Lord Jesus never intended that we do that kind of thing.

[williemac]

In observing this thread, I must commend those who at least will recognize that there are some differences between the spoken words of Jesus while on earth, and some of the teachings of Paul. I would like to share one in particular;

In Eph.4:32, they were told to forgive one another,.." even as Christ Jesus forgave you". Paul gave the same exhortation to the Colossian church in 3:13. In both cases, the reason was the same. We/they are to forgive because they have been forgiven.

However, this flies in the face of the words of Jesus just after the famous "Lord's prayer", in Math.6, where in vs.14,15, Jesus claims that if they do not first forgive, neither will their Father in heaven forgive them.

In my viewpoint, there is a confusion in the church concerning the message of forgiveness. Not so much in the exhortaion to forgive, but in the reasons why; in the motivation.

So which do we follow? Do we forgive because we have been forgiven, or do we forgive to get forgiveness? O, I know what to expect at this point. There are those who will insist that both are true and relevant today. To which I say...hogwash!

What Jesus said was absolutely true and relevant at the time He said it. But there are many in my opinion, who don't yet understand why Jesus said it and what He was purposing to accomplish.

Enter Paul's revelation. He explained to the Galatian church (3:23) that the law was given to hold those under guard until faith would afterward be revealed. He said that the law was a tutor. What did it teach? In short, it was used to convince those that they are sinners in need of a Savior.

So we ought to acknowledge that Jesus, in many cases and places, taught people that they were sinners. He came to them while they were still under the law. Although He spoke a little of faith, and of His coming sacrifice ( eg.John3:16), He also understood that it was not yet the time for the world to fully know and understand all that was coming.

I could quote a few more cases, and I'm sure most will already know of them, where Jesus told someone to keep the law for the reward of life, and at the same time, informed them that they were falling short.

This is a definate conflict with Paul, who claimed that the law could not nor cannot bring life. Does this elevate the one over the other? Absolutely not. Jesus promised that after He departed, He would send the Holy Spirit, who would convince (convict) the world of sin...(John16:8). So why wouldn't we at least suspect that Jesus Himself came to do a little convincing of the same? Jesus Himself said He came to save the sinner and not the righteous. We know that this includes all, for there is none righteous. That is not what they were being taught by their leaders, who felt righteous before God.

In regards to the original post,
Jesus, while on earth, healed all who came to Him for healing, and forgave all those who came to Him with their sin. Thus He was accused by the religious leaders of being a friend of tax collectors and sinners. But let us not make the mistake of taking this as Jesus supporting or condoning thier sin. Enter the op, which views this as a conflict with Paul. However, in this case there is no conflict. His exhortation was to not be seen supporting or condoning the sinful lifestyle of a brother in Christ.
( hey everyone, how do I turn on spell check? )
Blessings, Howie

[mark s]

There is no conflict. The New Testament went into affect upon Jesus' death, as Hebrews explains in detail.

Under the Law, God's acceptance of us was based on our performance. Under the New Covenant,God's acceptance of us is based on Jesus' performance.

Under the Covenant of Law, God would only forgive us if we forgive others. Under the New Covenant, God forgives us in Jesus. Having been forgiven, we are instructed to forgive others, even as God has already forgiven us.

No conflict. We just need to understand the . . . dispensation.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[JLB]

There is no conflict. The New Testament went into affect upon Jesus' death, as Hebrews explains in detail.

Under the Law, God's acceptance of us was based on our performance. Under the New Covenant,God's acceptance of us is based on Jesus' performance.

Under the Covenant of Law, God would only forgive us if we forgive others. Under the New Covenant, God forgives us in Jesus. Having been forgiven, we are instructed to forgive others, even as God has already forgiven us.

No conflict. We just need to understand the . . . dispensation.

Love in Christ,
Mark

How about Abraham. What was he under?


Thanks, JLB

[mark s]

How about Abraham. What was he under?


Thanks, JLB

Not to sidetrack this thread . . . so to answer simply . . . God told Abraham that he would be the father of countless descendants. Abraham believed God, and God accredited that belief to Abraham as righteousness.

Of course, Abraham pre-dated both New and Mosaic Covenants.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[MR ROSENBERGER]

It seems to me that the religious just can't get over their sin problem. They are ruled by their sin problem.

As for me, Jesus took care of my sin problem on the cross. I believe it, I have faith in it, I trust in it and I have confidence it it.

My faith is in the power of God that was in the shed blood of Jesus on the cross to make those of faith children of God.

The Devil must of been forgiven to as he knows who Jesus is, as well.
Why would one let sin rule as you must think just noting of it ? like O i am saved, so you must not be your brothers keeper ?
Is this right.

[JLB]

Not to sidetrack this thread . . . so to answer simply . . . God told Abraham that he would be the father of countless descendants. Abraham believed God, and God accredited that belief to Abraham as righteousness.

Of course, Abraham pre-dated both New and Mosaic Covenants.

Love in Christ,
Mark

The Lord Jesus made a Covenant with Abraham.

The Law of Moses was added to that Covenant temporarily because of Grace. We are now a part of the Covenant The Lord made with Abraham if we believe the gospel.

Here is what The Lord promised to Isaac over 400 years BEFORE the Law of Moses - Genesis 26:4-5

4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."

[QRSNER]

And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?” He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.” They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?” He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”
—Matthew 19:3-9

if Jesus' works and words are not of the highest importance in the Bible, how are we to understand this passage?

[Strat]

And we wonder why the world mocks and ridicules us.

Edited by Strat, 20 May 2012 - 04:21 AM.

[Angelina]

...indeed

[ZebraHug]

When you read the Bible , it is obvious that the letters of Paul are not the same message as the message that Christ sends us, that is, if we assume that we are to emulate Christ.

"When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, 'Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'? When Jesus heard this, he said, 'Healthy people don't need a doctor--sick people do.' (Matthew 9:11-12)

Paul the Apostle says

"When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. (Cor. 5:9-11)

Are we to assume that these brothers who are immoral are to be outcasts in the mind of Paul but for Jesus it is exactly these same people who NEED Christ's love. And doesn't Paul's Christianity assume a Judgemental and holier-than-thou point of view that "I, who am not sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler are outcasting YOU, brother , and I shall not eat with you." ???

You know, there are times where I find it really hard not to reply to topics like this, even though I generally find they don't achieve anything. It's just that they are so tongue-in-cheek, that I cannot resist replying.

Let me repost the verse in question in a bit more understandable text:

1Co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Paul was referring to one who was claiming Christianity, but was

This brings up an interesting point in my mind- when I thought this topic had reached the end to be honest with you. My question is this: Should we hold what Jesus said , in the Bible, to a higher, equal or lesser pedestal to what Paul had to write? We could say that it is all God speaking through them and leave it at that- but I would argue that reading the Beatitudes are the strongest, most wonderful and most beautiful statement anyone on earth has made and certainly comes from a place of deep authority and love. And every word that Jesus speaks , in my mind and heart, has a greater love and compassion for humanity than what Paul has to write in his letters.

What Jesus had to say was greater than what Paul had to say.

Son of God > Apostle/Saint

Oh my gosh. I would've thought that Hammerstone had answered the 'problem' eloquently enough!
Paul wrote UNDER INSPIRATION OF THE EXACT SAME SPIRIT THAT INHABITED CHRIST!
So let me rephrase your quote: What Jesus had to say was greater than what Jesus had to say.
Help!!!???
Answer me this: If religious hypocrites (Christians who openly sin without shame) where condoned by Jesus, how is it that he THREW them out of the Temple?

Mat 21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
Mat 21:13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Jesus and Paul were on the EXACT same page! Jesus didn't go and spend time with the hypocrites of his day, the 'religious' people who claimed to have it all and all the while spat in God's face. He supped with those who were lost, those who didn't know the way, those who didn't profess the way.

You CANNOT say Paul's gospel was different to Jesus, or the WHOLE Scripture becomes null and void. Because if we cannot trust part of it, how do we know the rest is trustworthy?

So the question still begs, if Jesus and Paul weren't on the same page, why then did Jesus throw the moneychangers out of the temple? After all, they were probably the most needy of ALL the people! Why?

14 When I think of all this, I fall to my knees and pray to the Father, 15 the Creator of everything in heaven and on earth. 16 I pray that from his glorious, unlimited resources he will empower you with inner strength through his Spirit.17 Then Christ will make his home in your hearts as you trust in him. Your roots will grow down into God’s love and keep you strong.18 And may you have the power to understand, as all God’s people should, how wide, how long, how high, and how deep his love is.19 May you experience the love of Christ, though it is too great to understand fully. Then you will be made complete with all the fullness of life and power that comes from God.20 Now all glory to God, who is able, through his mighty power at work within us, to accomplish infinitely more than we might ask or think.21 Glory to him in the church and in Christ Jesus through all generations forever and ever! Amen.

Paul in Eph 3:14-21 (NLT)

I think Paul's writings as all scripture are inspired by the same Spirit that inspired Jesus in His earthly ministry.

They better have been, or we're in a heap of strife! lol.

And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?” He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.” They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?” He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”
—Matthew 19:3-9

if Jesus' works and words are not of the highest importance in the Bible, how are we to understand this passage?

What bearing does this even have on the topic :/

[brightmorningstar]

QRSNER,
As we have established, Jesus didnt write any of the Bible, the witness comes from the NT writers. Since this you have still been talking about Jesus and Paul as though Jesus wrote what Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote and Paul wrote what Paul wrote.
I dont think you have grasped the point.

My question is this: Should we hold what Jesus said , in the Bible, to a higher, equal or lesser pedestal to what Paul had to write?

Paul preached what he received from Jesus (Galatians 1)
So if we hold what Paul writes as what Jesus imprated to him then we cant treat it as what Paul wrote.

Edited by brightmorningstar, 20 May 2012 - 09:40 AM.