28 replies to this topic

[RichardBurger]

The Great -You have to take it- debate:
*
It is said that faith is not faith unless it has works as a result. Many use the statement “you have to reach out and take it” as an example of having to do the work of taking the free gift of salvation. --- That is the way a man might see it. However;
*
“Faith is the substance of things not seen:” Heb 11:1-2
*
1. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2. For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. NKJV
*
How can you reach out, with human hands,, and take something that is not seen with the human eye? A child of God does not reach out and take the free gift of salvation, by God’s grace, by physical human actions (works).
*
An example: ----- A friend of mine knows I need a car to get me to the store and back so he puts his car in my driveway with gas and keys in it. He then calls me to tell me about it. --- I don’t have to look in the driveway to see if there is a car there because I trust in my friend. He wouldn’t tell me it was there if it wasn’t. In other words I have faith, trust, and confidence in my friend. --- The car is a gift, given to me by a friend. It is there ready for me to use. But I don’t need to use it right now. My friend has been a wonderful friend and now I am going to tell everyone I know about him.
*
----- My friend is Jesus. The car is His salvation and it is not a physical thing that can be obtained physically. ---
*
Two important things to think about:
*
1. What if someone tells me “how can I be sure the car is really there unless I go and see.” If I listen to him/her, and go see, then I have lost my faith, trust, confidence in what my friend told me. My efforts to go and see has not proved my faith, “”It has proven my lack of faith.””
*
2. What if someone tells me I need to go and pay my friend some money for the rental of his car and I do as he/she asks? If I do I have replaced my friends offer of a gift with a payment and that makes his gift a paid for item. It is no longer a gift. I have put him in the car rental business.
*
I believe, I have faith, I trust, I have confidence, in the work that God’s Son, Jesus, accomplished on the cross. When I pass from this life into the next, His work on the cross will allow me to be in heaven with my heavenly Father. It is then that I will need to use His free gift of salvation. It is always mine to use when I pass from this life into the next.
*
If a person thinks that God owes them something for what they do, then to them, God owes them a payment. It is a work that creates a debt that they think must be paid by God to the worker. This is law. If a person (Jesus) does a work and DOES NOT expect a payment in return then that is a gift. This is what grace is all about.
*
Jesus’ work on the cross was under law and has resulted in God giving Him all power and authority. That is the payment for the work that Jesus did on the cross. Jesus did that work for us, so that we can become children of God “”by faith in His work.””
*
Today we are not saved under the law of debt and payment. We are saved by God’s grace given to us by the work of His Son on the cross. Given to us by Jesus because He loves us enough to make a plan of salvation that saves sinners and all men are sinners.
*
John 20:28-29
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
NKJV

[JLB]

The Great -You have to take it- debate:
*
It is said that faith is not faith unless it has works as a result. Many use the statement “you have to reach out and take it” as an example of having to do the work of taking the free gift of salvation. --- That is the way a man might see it. However;
*
“Faith is the substance of things not seen:” Heb 11:1-2
*
1. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2. For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. NKJV
*
How can you reach out, with human hands,, and take something that is not seen with the human eye? A child of God does not reach out and take the free gift of salvation, by God’s grace, by physical human actions (works).
*
An example: ----- A friend of mine knows I need a car to get me to the store and back so he puts his car in my driveway with gas and keys in it. He then calls me to tell me about it. --- I don’t have to look in the driveway to see if there is a car there because I trust in my friend. He wouldn’t tell me it was there if it wasn’t. In other words I have faith, trust, and confidence in my friend. --- The car is a gift, given to me by a friend. It is there ready for me to use. But I don’t need to use it right now. My friend has been a wonderful friend and now I am going to tell everyone I know about him.
*
----- My friend is Jesus. The car is His salvation and it is not a physical thing that can be obtained physically. ---
*
Two important things to think about:
*
1. What if someone tells me “how can I be sure the car is really there unless I go and see.” If I listen to him/her, and go see, then I have lost my faith, trust, confidence in what my friend told me. My efforts to go and see has not proved my faith, “”It has proven my lack of faith.””
*
2. What if someone tells me I need to go and pay my friend some money for the rental of his car and I do as he/she asks? If I do I have replaced my friends offer of a gift with a payment and that makes his gift a paid for item. It is no longer a gift. I have put him in the car rental business.
*
I believe, I have faith, I trust, I have confidence, in the work that God’s Son, Jesus, accomplished on the cross. When I pass from this life into the next, His work on the cross will allow me to be in heaven with my heavenly Father. It is then that I will need to use His free gift of salvation. It is always mine to use when I pass from this life into the next.
*
If a person thinks that God owes them something for what they do, then to them, God owes them a payment. It is a work that creates a debt that they think must be paid by God to the worker. This is law. If a person (Jesus) does a work and DOES NOT expect a payment in return then that is a gift. This is what grace is all about.
*
Jesus’ work on the cross was under law and has resulted in God giving Him all power and authority. That is the payment for the work that Jesus did on the cross. Jesus did that work for us, so that we can become children of God “”by faith in His work.””
*
Today we are not saved under the law of debt and payment. We are saved by God’s grace given to us by the work of His Son on the cross. Given to us by Jesus because He loves us enough to make a plan of salvation that saves sinners and all men are sinners.
*
John 20:28-29
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
NKJV

I am not disagreeing with you, however let me answer a few of the questions.

1 - How can you reach out, with human hands,, and take something that is not seen with the human eye.

Who said anything about hands or human hands.

To take or receive by faith is a condition whereby you exercise your will to willing believe even though you have not seen.

2 - Salvation was paid for [past tense] 2000 years ago, that is to say the price for salvation was paid for 2000 years ago. It is actively available today, just as it was then.

the way we appropriate that salvation is to believe... Yet believing has the action of work, which is to confess with your mouth.

8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:8-10

[RichardBurger]

I am not disagreeing with you, however let me answer a few of the questions.

1 - How can you reach out, with human hands,, and take something that is not seen with the human eye.

Who said anything about hands or human hands.

To take or receive by faith is a condition whereby you exercise your will to willing believe even though you have not seen.

2 - Salvation was paid for [past tense] 2000 years ago, that is to say the price for salvation was paid for 2000 years ago. It is actively available today, just as it was then.

the way we appropriate that salvation is to believe... Yet believing has the action of work, which is to confess with your mouth.

8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:8-10

You are right in this respect. The child of God should bare fruit by witnessing to others what Jesus has done for them. That is the child's confession of faith in Jesus.

I think what I wrote is my confession of faith in Jesus.

[aspen2]

A pure gift from God.

It is the ability to suspend your disbelief, which is necessary to learn.

It is the ability to reserve judgment; being vulnerable long enough to be blessed.

[Episkopos]

It is looking beyond the visible things, situations, and current understandings for the truth.

[JLB]

Calling things that be not as though they were!

[bytheway]

Calling things that be not as though they were!

God alone calls those things that are not as though they were...........because they are, but not yet manifested. Faith is essentially Trust, trusting that whatever He does is for our good, always. As Aspen 2 wrote it's A pure gift from God. To suspend disbelief would mean it could picked back up, don't want to do that!

[dragonfly]

When God speaks - whether in reply to a specific question from us, or, through His written word as the Holy Spirit enlivens it to our understanding - our response should be to believe Him.


Faith is the correct reponse to the word of God to one's own heart.


Romans 10:17 Faith comes by hearing, and hearing BY the word of God.


I agree with aspen2 that faith is a gift. (Ephesians 2)


Anything that we can call 'our' faith, amounts to believing God is able to bring to pass events which show that He keeps His word.


When God speaks, things happen (such as the creation of the universe). God believes His word is creative, and we experience that very truth when we feel faith being created with us, as we hear Him speak to us.

[RichardBurger]

You are right in this respect. The child of God should bare fruit by witnessing to others what Jesus has done for them. That is the child's confession of faith in Jesus.

I think what I wrote is my confession of faith in Jesus.

My correction! "The child of God should bare fruit by witnessing to others what Jesus did for them on the cross." -- Many would take what I said as their confirmation that Jesus has changed their sinful flesh and that is not true. We are to teach the gospel of God's grace; not the law of Moses.

[InHisGrace07]

I believe faith simply put means to take God at His word.

When we truly have faith, this means we accept God's word is written for us and believe it instructs us to do His will, whereas, His Spirit prompts and empowers us to accomplish it.

As for our works, they are a demonstration (evidence) of the faith that truly exist w/in every believer.

This is why faith w/out works is dead!

Because, if you truly have faith in God, then you are compelled to respond and surrender to the will of the One living inside you.

[RichardBurger]

I believe faith simply put means to take God at His word.

When we truly have faith, this means we accept God's word is written for us and believe it instructs us to do His will, whereas, His Spirit prompts and empowers us to accomplish it.

As for our works, they are a demonstration (evidence) of the faith that truly exist w/in every believer.

This is why faith w/out works is dead!

Because, if you truly have faith in God, then you are compelled to respond and surrender to the will of the One living inside you.

So,are we to go around writing on forums about how we are sinless because we are Christians?

Since many want to write about faith then they should understand that the word faith is meaningless unless it is stated what that faith is in.

Some have faith in their religion and religious works to purchase their salvation and can say the have faith. But that faith is in what they do in religion.

My faith, belief, trust, and confidence is in the work that Jesus did on the cross. He shed His blood to reconcile all men to God but most do not have faith in that. Since they don't His shed blood does not reconcile them to God simply because they don't have faith that it does.

Dead Faith???
*
Faith - Trust - Confidence - Hope
*
All of the above words mean the same thing in that each one of them can be used to define the other.
*
Salvation: Faith - Trust - Confidence - Hope in what Jesus did on the cross to pay for our sins.
*
*******
*
And along comes James and his famous words; "Faith without works is dead."
*
Person #1. Making 140,000 a year and has extra money to give to Charities.
Has only one job and has the time to do Charitable works.
Has lots of works to make sure his faith is not dead and thinks he is a good Christian.
(see Luke 18:10-14)
*
Person #2. Making 45,000 a year and working two jobs has no money to part with.
Since he/she is working two jobs they have no time to do Charitable works and very little to socialize. -- The person ""worries"" that they are not doing enough works to make sure their faith is not dead and worries that their faith is dead because of the words “faith without works is dead“.
*
Person #3. Living on a social security check has no spare money to give.
Has no money for a car and a car's expense to travel and do Charitable works.
""Worries"" that he/she is not doing enough to make sure their faith is not dead and they feel they are not a good Christian. (my mother was like this)
*
Note Person #3 is very susceptible to TV preachers saying they have to step out in faith and send them money.
*
***********
*
Question #1. --- What does the statement "faith without works" do to the faith, trust, confidence, and hope in Christ of persons #2 and #3? ---- What does it do to their peace and joy in Christ?
*
Question #2. --- Tell me how a person's works "increase their faith" and makes their faith ""perfect?"" ---- Doesn't it do just the opposite? Doesn’t it make them have faith in themselves and their efforts?
*
In this age the children of God are at rest in God and have ceased from their own works just as God did from His.
*
Heb 4:1-11
*
1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.
2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.
3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:
*
"So I swore in My wrath,
'They shall not enter My rest,'" although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works";
5 and again in this place: "They shall not enter My rest."
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said:
*
"Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts."
*
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.
10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.
NKJV
　

Edited by RichardBurger, 13 July 2012 - 12:14 PM.

[InHisGrace07]

So,are we to go around writing on forums about how we are sinless because we are Christians?

>>I'm sorry, but I believe you imagined that. Where exactly did I make this statement you indicated.

Since many want to write about faith then they should understand that the word faith is meaningless unless it is stated what that faith is in.

>>I do recall mentioning my faith is in God..

[RichardBurger]

Nothing in what you said tells me why faith is dead unless it has works.

And what works? Works we do to earn our salvation by how we live or is it work we do to spread the news (Message) that God has made a way for sinners to be saved and all that is required by God is that you believe it. -- But the religious will not believe this and say you must not have faith if you don't work.

Only in the book of James do we find a statement that faith is dead without works. It was certainly true under the Law of Moses. Under the law of Moses a person had to do all that the law required or they did not have faith in doing what the law required. --- James book was written to the Jews who were under the Law of Moses. I am not the one that says it, James 1:1 says it.

In this age of grace no one is justified before God by doing the works of the Law.

But the religious today will not believe it. They insist that works are necessary or faith is dead; and then tell you that works will not save you.

Edited by RichardBurger, 13 July 2012 - 02:36 PM.

[dragonfly]

Hi Richard,

I think you've been rather hard on a very new member to the forum, who did mention 'taking God at His word' as where she puts her faith.

But the religious will not believe this and say you must not have faith if you don't work.

Are you excluding Ephesians 2:10 from this statement? (I hope so.)

Ephesians 2:10

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,

which God has before [Eph 1:4, 5:] ordained that we should walk in them.

[RichardBurger]

Hi Richard,

I think you've been rather hard on a very new member to the forum, who did mention 'taking God at His word' as where she puts her faith.



Are you excluding Ephesians 2:10 from this statement? (I hope so.)

Ephesians 2:10

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,

which God has before [Eph 1:4, 5:] ordained that we should walk in them.

No one treated me with kid gloves on this forum and you want me to ignore what I believe so as to be gentle on a newbe.

Okay, here we go again. -----WHAT GOOD WORKS???? Our works of pretending we don't sin anymore like most on this forum? The "good works" we are to walk in are Not our works of the flesh but His good work on the cross (we are His workmanship). We are created to walk in faith in His good works, not our own. Do you think God was wrong when He said "there is none that do not sin and if anyone says they have no sin they are a liar? I think most want to overlook this idea.

We are to walk in HIS GOOD WORKS and God ordained that those of faith would be called righteous because He is righteous, not because we are righteous.

No mater how the religous want to ignore it the scripture is true.

Romans 3:23-26
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

This mean """"all"""" for those who will not see it.

24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

This mean it is free and you don't have to work for it.

25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
NKJV

His righteousness, not man's righteousness.

Edited by RichardBurger, 14 July 2012 - 10:13 AM.

[Episkopos]

Belief is blind...man can believe anything. But faith sees! Faith perceives the truth...intuits it. Then we have a choice to go with faith or not. Ususally someone who does have faith will at least go that route...that is until things get difficult. then it depends on character.

[dragonfly]

Hi Richard,

Thanks for acknowledging Ephesians 2:10.


Hello Episkopos,

Belief is blind...man can believe anything. But faith sees! Faith perceives the truth...intuits it. Then we have a choice to go with faith or not. Ususally someone who does have faith will at least go that route...that is until things get difficult. then it depends on character.

Hmm. I think what you might be meaning by 'belief' is that people bring the whole construct of their previous belief system with them, when they first come to Christ, and God has to dismantle everything that is not of Him, piece by piece, in such a way that they move their 'belief' over on to Him and His word(s).

Personally, I would not use 'belief' in the way that you have. I would rather say that faith comes in response to God's word to us. God's word of itself can create hearing with the heart, and that faith which rises in response to that word, is the 'belief' on which we can stake our life. It is the word of God which brings spiritual sight, too. The Holy Spirit enables us to 'see' with the eyes of faith, when there is yet no physical evidence.

All the faith in the New Testament is God's faith. That's another aspect of the faith which we find ourselves exercising: it's a gift.

[kensapp]

Faith is more of our belief. It is a mindset in which God has our full trust that even if we don’t see Him, we know and believe of His goodness and existence and we accept that the grace and blesssings that we experience are the works of our faith in Him.

[Watchwithme]

Hebrews 11: 1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith:

conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
a) relating to God
1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
relating to Christ
1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
c) the religious beliefs of Christians
d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
2) fidelity, faithfulness
a) the character of one who can be relied on


Substance

a setting or placing under
a) thing put under, substructure, foundation
2) that which has foundation, is firm
a) that which has actual existence
1) a substance, real being
the substantial quality, nature, of a person or thing
c) the steadfastness of mind, firmness, courage, resolution
1) confidence, firm trust, assurance

Hope

1) to hope
a) in a religious sense, to wait for salvation with joy and full confidence
2) hopefully to trust in

Evidence

1) a proof, that by which a thing is proved or tested
2) conviction

Things

1) that which has been done, a deed, an accomplished fact
2) what is done or being accomplished
a) spec. business, a commercial transaction
3) a matter, question, affair
a) spec. in a forensic sense, a matter at law, case, suit
4) that which is or exists, a thing

Seen

) to see, discern, of the bodily eye
a) with the bodily eye: to be possessed of sight, have the power of seeing
perceive by the use of the eyes: to see, look descry
c) to turn the eyes to anything: to look at, look upon, gaze at
d) to perceive by the senses, to feel
e) to discover by use, to know by experience
2) metaph. to see with the mind's eye
a) to have (the power of) understanding
to discern mentally, observe, perceive, discover, understand
c) to turn the thoughts or direct the mind to a thing, to consider, contemplate, to look at, to weigh carefully, examine
3) in a geographical sense of places, mountains, buildings, etc. turning towards any quarter, as it were, facing it


From what we can see here, in the Christian sense at least, is that faith is a fact, it’s an actuality, even a reality, there is absolutely NO Doubt involved, in fact it is such an alien term to the natural man that is appears as foolishness to him.

Edited by Watchwithme, 21 July 2012 - 03:52 AM.

[Rach]

I believe faith simply put means to take God at His word.

When we truly have faith, this means we accept God's word is written for us and believe it instructs us to do His will, whereas, His Spirit prompts and empowers us to accomplish it.

As for our works, they are a demonstration (evidence) of the faith that truly exist w/in every believer.

This is why faith w/out works is dead!

Because, if you truly have faith in God, then you are compelled to respond and surrender to the will of the One living inside you.

Hey Grace! Very well said! Welcome to the board

Nothing in what you said tells me why faith is dead unless it has works.

And what works? Works we do to earn our salvation by how we live or is it work we do to spread the news (Message) that God has made a way for sinners to be saved and all that is required by God is that you believe it. -- But the religious will not believe this and say you must not have faith if you don't work.

Only in the book of James do we find a statement that faith is dead without works. It was certainly true under the Law of Moses. Under the law of Moses a person had to do all that the law required or they did not have faith in doing what the law required. --- James book was written to the Jews who were under the Law of Moses. I am not the one that says it, James 1:1 says it.

In this age of grace no one is justified before God by doing the works of the Law.

But the religious today will not believe it. They insist that works are necessary or faith is dead; and then tell you that works will not save you.

I do not understand why you seem to have so much trouble 'getting' the difference between works that lead to salvation (that which does not exist) and works that come from salvation (that which the bible says comes from regeneration). We know the bible encourages it, because we see all the things Paul and Peter and the other NT authors write to Christian churches. Things on how to live and how to treat others after these people are already saved. These things are 'fruit' of a Christian life. It comes from our saved state, but does not cause it.

Let's use your example with your friends car. Obviously this friend is a wonderful person and a thoughtful friend to have. After such fantastic gestures such as lending the car, do you watch for the opportunity to help him back, or use his generosity to then help others? If you don't, then all you have is a Homer Simpson/Ned Flanders type relationship...where Homer takes and takes and shows no appreciation at all.

When we become saved (so it's already a done deal through faith in Christ, his grace alone) this regeneration of our old selves leads to a desire to out-pour this generosity and mercy given to us. It in no way effects our salvation or earns it...we don't need to do it, but we get to! We get to show Christ's love for us to others. We get to, in our own, meagre, pathetic, inadequate, unworthy way, try and make our heavenly father pleased with us. Not to earn his love, but because we already have it.

[Episkopos]

Faith= Fearlessness

[RichardBurger]

To Richard:

I do not understand why you seem to have so much trouble 'getting' the difference between works that lead to salvation (that which does not exist) and works that come from salvation (that which the bible says comes from regeneration). We know the bible encourages it, because we see all the things Paul and Peter and the other NT authors write to Christian churches. Things on how to live and how to treat others after these people are already saved. These things are 'fruit' of a Christian life. It comes from our saved state, but does not cause it.

Let's use your example with your friends car. Obviously this friend is a wonderful person and a thoughtful friend to have. After such fantastic gestures such as lending the car, do you watch for the opportunity to help him back, or use his generosity to then help others? If you don't, then all you have is a Homer Simpson/Ned Flanders type relationship...where Homer takes and takes and shows no appreciation at all.

When we become saved (so it's already a done deal through faith in Christ, his grace alone) this regeneration of our old selves leads to a desire to out-pour this generosity and mercy given to us. It in no way effects our salvation or earns it...we don't need to do it, but we get to! We get to show Christ's love for us to others. We get to, in our own, meagre, pathetic, inadequate, unworthy way, try and make our heavenly father pleased with us. Not to earn his love, but because we already have it.

I suppose it is because works do not lead to salvation unless it is faith in the work that Jesus has already accomplished on the cross.

It looks to me that you feel you have to pay God back to satisfy your fleshly desire to save yourself by what you do. It is that same feeling during Christmas when you recieve a gift you feel you have to give one in return. That makes a gift a purchased item. The work for the child of God under grace is to teach the gospel of grace so that more people can see it and place their faith in it. For everyone that comes to God because you have given them the message of God's grace is a fruit that you have produced for God. God has already said your works for salvation are as filthy as dirty rags.

Good writing but is it the truth? According to my Bible scrriptures we are accounted righteous before God, not by what we do to be righteous but by His righteousness imputed on our account. WE should be testifing as to His righteousness, not our own.

When you use "faith without works is dead" as your source for teaching salvation then you are saying that unless you have works you are not a child of God and then turn around and say that works have nothing to do with it. That sound like a contradiction to me. I thought Jesus was our judge! He determines who is and who isn't baring fruit for Him.

But the religious think that trying not to commit sin in the flesh is a fruit. Fruit for who??? Is it their payment for their salvation?

Edited by RichardBurger, 21 July 2012 - 10:48 AM.

[Episkopos]

I suppose it is because works do not lead to salvation unless it is faith in the work that Jesus has already accomplished on the cross.

It looks to me that you feel you have to pay God back to satisfy your fleshly desire to save yourself by what you do. It is that same feeling during Christmas when you recieve a gift you feel you have to give one in return. That makes a gift a purchased item. The work for the child of God under grace is to teach the gospel of grace so that more people can see it and place their faith in it. For everyone that comes to God because you have given them the message of God's grace is a fruit that you have produced for God. God has already said your works for salvation are as filthy as dirty rags.

Good writing but is it the truth? According to my Bible scrriptures we are accounted righteous before God, not by what we do to be righteous but by His righteousness imputed on our account. WE should be testifing as to His righteousness, not our own.

When you use "faith without works is dead" as your source for teaching salvation then you are saying that unless you have works you are not a child of God and then turn around and say that works have nothing to do with it. That sound like a contradiction to me. I thought Jesus was our judge! He determines who is and who isn't baring fruit for Him.

But the religious think that trying not to commit sin in the flesh is a fruit. Fruit for who???

Not commiting sin in the flesh is a by-product of walking with Jesus. We are not seeking to not sin per se....we are seeking to walk with God in the Spirit. Anyone can claim a doctrinal salvation based on something they read...most will do this. But they still don't know Jesus or the type of life He gives to those who have surrendered their lives to Him. To use the mind to formulate a religious notion of salvation from reading verses is powerless to put the old sin nature to death and cause a new life to spring up. So I believe you when you say that your type of belief has no power over the flesh. It is made up from yourself...so you are still limited to yourself.

[RichardBurger]

Faith= Fearlessness

I disagree, according toi the dictionary Faith means;

Faith = to trust in, unquestioning belief, anything believed, complete trust, confidence, reliance,

See "belief", "trust", "confidence"

We are saved because we believe, have faith in, trust in, confidence in the shed blood of Jesus on the cross to reconcile us to God; we believe His promises.

Not commiting sin in the flesh is a by-product of walking with Jesus. We are not seeking to not sin per se....we are seeking to walk with God in the Spirit. Anyone can claim a doctrinal salvation based on something they read...most will do this. But they still don't know Jesus or the type of life He gives to those who have surrendered their lives to Him. To use the mind to formulate a religious notion of salvation from reading verses is powerless to put the old sin nature to death and cause a new life to spring up. So I believe you when you say that your type of belief has no power over the flesh. It is made up from yourself...so you are still limited to yourself.

So if a person wants to place their faith, trust, and confidence in the work of Jesus on the cross to save them that is not enought under your theology, right? Faith in what Jesus did on the cross does not save a person and does not meet you idea of salvation, right?

That means that those who are honest with God and know that they still sin in the flesh will not be saved, right?

Edited by RichardBurger, 21 July 2012 - 10:59 AM.

[Episkopos]

I disagree, according toi the dictionary Faith means;

Faith = to trust in, unquestioning belief, anything believed, complete trust, confidence, reliance,

See "belief", "trust", "confidence"

We are saved because we believe, have faith in, trust in, confidence in the shed blood of Jesus on the cross to reconcile us to God; we believe His promises.



So if a person wants to place their faith, trust, and confidence in the work of Jesus on the cross to save them that is not enought under your theology, right? Faith in what Jesus did on the cross does not save a person and does not meet you idea of salvation, right?

Exactly...WE are not the final arbiters of salvation...God is. HE has mercy on whomever He wishes. Man does not have the power to become whatever he believes he is. No man can justify himself before God for any work he may have done or any belief he may entertain . You are simply exchanging self-righteousness by works for a self-righteousness through your own beliefs. This is also called self-delusion. Beliefs are not greater than works. If I believe a rock is moved without moving it..then I am in the realm of fiction. Have you ever tried just believing your way through a day of work without actually going to work? Would you still get real money for doing pretend work? So the gospel is about reality and truth. When we truly have the power to walk as Jesus walked THEN we can hope to live with Him as His Bride in the next age.

That means that those who are honest with God and know that they still sin in the flesh will not be saved, right?

Notice that the publican did not return home having justified himself because of his repentance. Those that are honest do not make up man made salvation schemes then justify themselves because they believe in their own scheme.

Edited by Episkopos, 21 July 2012 - 11:16 AM.

[RichardBurger]

Exactly...WE are not the final arbiters of salvation...God is. HE has mercy on whomever He wishes. Man does not have the power to become whatever he believes he is. No man can justify himself before God for any work he may have done or any belief he may entertain . You are simply exchanging self-righteousness by works for a self-righteousness through your own beliefs. This is also called self-delusion. Beliefs are not greater than works. If I believe a rock is moved without moving it..then I am in the realm of fiction. Have you ever tried just believing your way through a day of work without actually going to work? Would you still get real money for doing pretend work? So the gospel is about reality and truth. When we truly have the power to walk as Jeus walked THEN we can hope to live with Him as His Bride in the next age.

Belief in the promises of God in Jesus Christ is much greater than the works of men. According to the scriptures it is our faith in Jesus that overcomes the world, not our works. But you don't seem to want to believe it.

[Episkopos]

Belief in the promises of God in Jesus Christ is much greater than the works of men. According to the scriptures it is our faith in Jesus that overcomes the world, not our works. But you don't seem to want to believe it.

Belief in the promises of God IS a work of man. The devil believes in the promises of God too. Now that his time is short he is working overtime on the church....and he's doing a pretty efficient job of it too!

[RichardBurger]

Belief in the promises of God IS a work of man. The devil believes in the promises of God too. Now that his time is short he is working overtime on the church....and he's doing a pretty efficient job of it too!

Thank you for confirming what I said.

[Rach]

I suppose it is because works do not lead to salvation unless it is faith in the work that Jesus has already accomplished on the cross.

I have never said that works lead to salvation...and I never will. All my faith is in what Christ did on the cross. I am daily almost faint with relief that salvation is because of Jesus' work, not my own, because I am well aware of my own sinfulness (and aware that there is probably much, much more I'm not aware of!).

It looks to me that you feel you have to pay God back to satisfy your fleshly desire to save yourself by what you do. It is that same feeling during Christmas when you recieve a gift you feel you have to give one in return. That makes a gift a purchased item. The work for the child of God under grace is to teach the gospel of grace so that more people can see it and place their faith in it. For everyone that comes to God because you have given them the message of God's grace is a fruit that you have produced for God. God has already said your works for salvation are as filthy as dirty rags.

I really, really don't feel I need to pay God back...I know there is absolutely nothing I have or can do that would be worth such a price. Even me on a good day...where I nailed everything...is ridiculous and disgusting in the eyes of God. My only hope is to have Christ's righteousness imputed to me.
But consider these verses:

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15 ESV)

For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 1:5-8 ESV)

I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. (Ephesians 4:1-3 ESV)

Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. (Colossians 3:12-15 ESV)

On and on they go! We may not need to 'do' anything to earn or keep salvation, but you cannot deny that the Bible is full of things Christians ought to do. If they are not for our salvation, why then are we told to do them? Could it be because God asks it of us? Could it be that if a person has been given a new heart some of these things will automatically flow from them? Could it be that even saved as we are, we still live in a fallen world and a fallen body, and we must constantly fight to put sin to death...and sometimes the best way to kill sin is to think about good things: "whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me—practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you." (Philippians 4:8-9)

Good writing but is it the truth? According to my Bible scrriptures we are accounted righteous before God, not by what we do to be righteous but by His righteousness imputed on our account. WE should be testifing as to His righteousness, not our own.

Didn't Paul say: And they glorified God because of me. (Galatians 1:24 ESV)
Sometimes Gods glory can be testified through us. It is never an accurate representation of his glory, wonder, goodness, mercy etc. But people who are not saved should be able to look at us, look at our lives, and see that there is something different...something joyous, something free.
And yes, absolutely we are not seen as righteous because of what we do...laughable to think that, right!? But in our actions...those actions that the bible describes...what we might call 'fruit'...we can show how righteous God is...not how righteous we are. The bible says that a Christian will be known by their fruit. This absolutely suggests that there is something that we do...an outpouring of grace given, not earned.

When you use "faith without works is dead" as your source for teaching salvation then you are saying that unless you have works you are not a child of God and then turn around and say that works have nothing to do with it. That sound like a contradiction to me. I thought Jesus was our judge! He determines who is and who isn't baring fruit for Him.

I can understand how you see that, but truly, it's not complicated and its not a contradiction! Unless a person is an ungrateful evil lump, they usually respond to kindness, yes? It's kind of like a 'pay it forward' idea. Jesus has done something amazing for us. It's something we didn't deserve and couldn't earn, but we have it all the same. Do we then take that, say 'fine', and then sit there, do nothing and see no change in our behaviour, actions or situation? Or do we take that wonderful gift, and try to make a difference? Do we share the wonder of the gift? Do we help others out just because we want to....maybe need to? The bible says that you will know a Christian by their fruit...how they live, how they respond to others, how echo's of Christ are seen in their own lives...do they seek to kill sin within them selves (only possible with the help of the Spirit of course!) This is what James is really saying...anyone can claim to 'have faith'. How many people sitting in Church, singing songs and 'claiming' Christ, do you think there are? People who love 'following the rules' to a degree, yet when you dig deeper it's all about them. How it makes them look...good, noble, a man with integrity. They like the position in the Church and where it can get them in their neighbourhood. But do these people have a personal relationship with Jesus? Do they have the Holy Spirit working in their hearts and lives? Do they think of Jesus and others before themselves (or at least working on that!). Are they bearing real fruit? This is what James means. Faith...real faith, a faith that has Jesus at the centre, middle and edge of their life, will bear fruit...it will lead to works that echo and show Christ's magnificence...his glory and grace. Any faith that doesn't do that, must be seen as a false faith.
This is how Paul and James fit together so well. Paul is hammering on how salvation comes through faith alone, not works (which we both know and agree with) and James is saying...yes and amen, but real faith bears fruit (which means people who would tend to take what Paul is teaching and use it as licence to live as they choose, sin and all, have no leg to stand on). This way the bible is covering thee two 'over-actions' that may come from the gospel....the tend to religious lawfulness, and the tend to licentiousness. The harmony and beauty of grace lies smack in the middle...freedom from sin and freedom from law...both of which we are helpless against (the law we cannot fulfil perfectly ourselves, and sin we cannot escape from ourselves).

But the religious think that trying not to commit sin in the flesh is a fruit. Fruit for who??? Is it their payment for their salvation?

I agree....the religious take the laws (or the ones they think suit them) and feel if they follow them, they'll be ok. They conveniently forget that Paul says if you rely on even one point of the law, God will require you to keep every single one of them perfectly. Kinda impossible.
But as for fruit...real fruit....don't you know a Christian person who you admire? Someone who is so kind, or so patient, or so forgiving? What about your friend who loaned you his car? Not everyone would do that. That is fruit...that is evidence that they were thinking of you and the grace of God before themselves. Naturally our sinful selves tend not to want to do those sort of things. 'It's too much effort'...'they won't appreciate it anyway'...'but that would put me out'...'what if they don't return it in time, I'd would be safer if I just kept it'. All these things are probably the natural response of the human heart. The difference in a Christian, is the Holy Spirit...He pushes us and grows us so that we end up learning joy and happiness in doing things like loaning a car.

I hope that helps clarify where I'm coming from a little better....