20 replies to this topic

[UHCAIan]

Being a Trinitarian Pentecostal Christian we sometimes in fellowship with Oneness Pentecostals in prayer meetings, services, etc. Yes we disagree on baptismal formula, and the Trinitarian view of God's oneness and unity. But many Oneness Pentecostals I know have a genuine and strong belief in Jesus Christ, knows and abides by the holy writ (Bible), and live a holy life. Are Oneness Pentecostals biblicaly sound or heretical? I have a genuine and strong need to know. Some members of my own family are Oneness Pentecostal.

Core Beliefs of Oneness Pentecostalism

• Oneness of God (God is One) believes Father, Son, & Holy Ghost are titles for Jesus who is the One God
• Salvation by grace through faith and living a holy life
• Baptism in Jesus' name only
• Speaking in Tongues as the sole evidence of the Holy Ghost
• Holy Bible is the infallible word of God

These beliefs seem biblical and sound but are they?

[rockytopva]

Oneness Pentecostalism is not Wesleyan is ways. John Wesley began the true road to Pentecostalism with the following Methods...

The Wesleyan Methods…

1. Justification – Faith Believing – On the Lord Jesus Christ and the many promises of God.
2. Salvation – Professing Jesus as Lord!
3. Sanctification - Receiving Jesus and true sanctification in the heart
4. Witness of the Spirit - Experiencing greater spiritual blessing. Often experienced in the ‘after service.’


Which the African American, William Seymour, added the gift of tongues as part of the WItness of the Spirit. Here is what went on during the Methodist Camp Meetings / Revivals from which Pentecostalism sprang...

1. They were entertaining.
2. Everyone got involved.
3. Salvation was emphasized.
4. Sanctification was taught as an experience
5. The preaching was encouraging.
6. This is something for every denomination or non-denomination.

1. The Methodist Camp Meetings and revivals were entertaining: The first unique feature of the Methodist Camp meeting was that the meetings were entertaining. Back in the old rural southeast there was simply little going as far as entertainment. The revivals of the time were our entertainment. I can remember my Grandmother telling me that my Pentecostal Holiness (a child of the Methodist faith) Grandfather would attend the churches revivals into the wee hours of the morning and that he would have no trouble rising for work just a few hours later. And what can be more entertaining than seeing people delivered and set free? The first priority of the Camp Meetings is that they had to be an experience! A lasting experience!

2. Everyone Got Involved: The next unique feature to the Methodist Camp meetings was that everyone got involved. These were not conferences, but revivals. People did not simply sit there blank and expressionless. They would smile, laugh, shout, Amen the preacher, etc. When the preaching and the music were good the services would erupt in a floodtide and everyone would be blessed. An old nursery rhyme went...

Pussy-cat, pussy-cat, where have you been?
I've been to London to visit the Queen!
Pussy-cat, pussy-cat, what did you there?
I frightened a little mouse under her chair.

The old pussy cat visited London for other purposes than to visit the Queen and the splendors of London. This was not true for the true Methodist. They did not go to these meetings to look for the little mice (faults) in people; they were there to worship the Lord. The camp-meetings served to provide the mostly solitary frontier people with a greater sense of community they lacked in their day-to-day lives.

3. Salvation was emphasized: Smith Wigglesworth once said that he would rather see one soul saved then ten thousand healed of bodily ailments. This is the heart of a true Methodist. At the end of each meeting and before the after service souls were invited to the straw for salvation.

4. Sanctification was taught as an experience: I was brought up Baptist where I was sure that only the people of that faith were truly saved and that all Roman Catholics were going to hell and that speaking of tongues was of the devil. I honestly believed that.

When I was seventeen I went to visit my Grandmother here in Virginia. The Pentecostal services were very animated. As the people showed the fruit of the Spirit I fell in with them. One night during the alter service the elders came behind me to pray for me. There were tears dripping down their cheeks spilling onto my shoulders and plenty of love and hugs after the service. That night I was reading the book “Run Baby Run” by Nikki Cruz in which a voice told me to put the book down. After a little while I put the book down in which the Spirit of the Lord was all around me… “Where is all that hatred, stress, and strife?” The Spirit said. In which, after examining my heart, in my Grandmothers clothes line fresh bed sheets, and with the Katy dids chirping in the background, I had realized that I had experienced the same thing those people did at the church... Which was true sanctification.

But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. – Galatians 3:25

When one experiences true spiritual sanctification one needs not a lot of doctrine. One avoids evil as he has a heart to do righteousness. And that righteousness is a well of life into ones soul. But I must say, as long as the soul is clean one can continue to confess sanctification, as long as ones soul is not ‘muddied’ by the things of the world.

5. The Preaching was Encouraging: As sanctified souls are not dirty there is no need to dwell on the clothesline, nor in examining the jewelry, nor in a person’s make-up. The Spirit himself will lead the sheep’s paths to righteousness. The preaching that drew the most response were encouraging sermons. Encouraging men to salvation, the clean life of sanctification, and to the Celestial City. Even in the preaching of hell fire, it was done in positive means as to win souls to Calvary. As said earlier in this devotional… There is no such thing as mediocrity in a Camp Meeting. To escape contempt, it must be the greatest assemblage and the most thrilling occasion of religious worship known to the church. The preachers of camp meetings must be eloquent, dynamic type guys. And finally, the encouragement was to love all men, even those stained with the evils of sin. We are to hate the sin... But most importantly we are to love the sinner.

6. Any Church can experience these things. - I have heard of a Catholic congregation needing a place of worship, so a Lutheran congregation let them have a time of service in their church. This would have been unheard of hundreds of years ago.

If enough churches come together in agreement of revival, and are there to love people, and to take the time to coordinate such an event, and to let the Spirit have his own unique way, I believe that revival can happen to any church, and in any denomination, and in any town. Thus the intentions of John Wesley was not to create another denomination, but to bring a revival on planet Earth.

Edited by rockytopva, 11 June 2012 - 08:56 PM.

[veteran]

Being a Trinitarian Pentecostal Christian we sometimes in fellowship with Oneness Pentecostals in prayer meetings, services, etc. Yes we disagree on baptismal formula, and the Trinitarian view of God's oneness and unity. But many Oneness Pentecostals I know have a genuine and strong belief in Jesus Christ, knows and abides by the holy writ (Bible), and live a holy life. Are Oneness Pentecostals biblicaly sound or heretical? I have a genuine and strong need to know. Some members of my own family are Oneness Pentecostal.

Core Beliefs of Oneness Pentecostalism

• Oneness of God (God is One) believes Father, Son, & Holy Ghost are titles for Jesus who is the One God
• Salvation by grace through faith and living a holy life
• Baptism in Jesus' name only
• Speaking in Tongues as the sole evidence of the Holy Ghost
• Holy Bible is the infallible word of God

These beliefs seem biblical and sound but are they?

Nothing Biblically wrong with the Oneness idea in the sense that it declares The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit as the fulll Godhead.

Our Salvation is by God's Grace according to our Faith on Christ's Blood shed upon the cross. It is a gift, not something we could ever earn by our works. Although God does expect us to have works in Him as an example of that Faith. The difference in His future Kingdom between those who just believe only, vs. those who believe and also have works in Him, is that reward comes from those works following us to Heaven (Rev.14:13). Jesus used the idea of some believers appearing naked and in shame for being deceived also (Rev.3:18; Rev.16:15).

I personally believe we should be baptized in the Name of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, the complete Godhead. Yet, when one says Jesus Christ, they are saying part of The Father's Name, for in the Hebrew Christ's Name Yeshua has The Father's Name within it (Ye or Yah). In other words, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit cannot be separated.

Speaking the 'cloven tongue' of Pentecost is not... the only manifestation of The Holy Spirit according to Apostle Paul, but The Holy Spirit is divided to every believer severally as He will (1 Cor.12). This is one area that I strongly disagree with the Pentecostals about, for many of them claim you don't have evidence of The Holy Spirit without the gift of speaking in tongues. That's simply not true, but a doctrine of men within that system.

Another point is that having evidence of a gift by The Holy Spirit still does not mean that one cannot be deceived for the end. One can just as easily refuse to listen to The Holy Spirit unction as much as refusing to heed God's Holy Writ, and therby become deceived by Satan's host. One of the strongest proofs for that is how some doctrinal traditions lot of Pentecostals have don't come from God's Holy Writ, but from made-up traditions of men, the Pre-trib secret Rapture idea from 1830's Great Britain being one of their main problem areas.

All Christian believers should agree that God's Holy Writ is the infallible Word of God. But still, that's not about errors that creep into translations.

[JLB]

Veteran,

I would like to ask you to share what you believe about this phrase that you wrote.-

I personally believe we should be baptized in the Name of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, the complete Godhead. Yet, when one says Jesus Christ, they are saying part of The Father's Name, for in the Hebrew Christ's Name Yeshua has The Father's Name within it (Ye or Yah). In other words, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit cannot be separated.

Do you believe the name YHWH to refer to The Father or The Son.


I am not a big fan of the NIV, but it's rendering of this verse, I like.


John 17:11

11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one.


I personally believe The Son has glorified the name of The Father in this verse.

Philippians 2:10-11

10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


JLB

Edited by JLB, 15 June 2012 - 06:19 PM.

[veteran]

Veteran,

I would like to ask you to share what you believe about this phrase that you wrote.-

I personally believe we should be baptized in the Name of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, the complete Godhead. Yet, when one says Jesus Christ, they are saying part of The Father's Name, for in the Hebrew Christ's Name Yeshua has The Father's Name within it (Ye or Yah). In other words, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit cannot be separated.

Do you believe the name YHWH to refer to The Father or The Son.


I am not a big fan of the NIV, but it's rendering of this verse, I like.


John 17:11

11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one.


I personally believe The Son has glorified the name of The Father in this verse.

Philippians 2:10-11

10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


JLB

If you will study the Book of Hebrews closely, you will discover how we are to understand the idea of The Father as Saviour by coming in the flesh through woman's womb. It tells us that Christ is the "express image" of The Father. That's why Jesus answered Philip's question in John 14 as those who had seen Him has seen The Father.

Hebrews tells us The Son was created in the flesh a little lower than the angels for the purpose of sufferring. That act of creation involves ONLY Jesus' flesh through woman's womb, not His Divine Nature as "Immanuel" (God with us). Isaiah 9:6 calls Christ "The everlasting Father" and "The mighty God". Also, it's YHVH per acrostics in the Hebrew manuscripts, YeHoVaH or Jehovah being an English transliteration with vowels added.

The name 'Jesus' orginates from Greek Iesous (means 'Yehovah is salvation'). The KJV name Joshua is an English transliteration of the equivalent Greek Iesous. The Hebrew for Joshua is Yehowshu'a. Thus when we say Jesus Christ, or Yehowshu'a, in whatever language, The Father's Name is included. Christ Jesus' name cannot be separated from The Father's Name per the original Hebrew. Also, many of the names of the OT prophets have some type of inclusion of God's Name, like Isaiah (Yesha'ya, which means 'Yah has saved'). Ezekiel = Yechezq'el (God strengthens) with EL being another one of God's Names.

The 1800's Christian scholar E.W. Bullinger has a whole Appendix on the different Biblical Titles of GOD you might find interesting.

[JLB]

If you will study the Book of Hebrews closely, you will discover how we are to understand the idea of The Father as Saviour by coming in the flesh through woman's womb. It tells us that Christ is the "express image" of The Father. That's why Jesus answered Philip's question in John 14 as those who had seen Him has seen The Father.

Hebrews tells us The Son was created in the flesh a little lower than the angels for the purpose of sufferring. That act of creation involves ONLY Jesus' flesh through woman's womb, not His Divine Nature as "Immanuel" (God with us). Isaiah 9:6 calls Christ "The everlasting Father" and "The mighty God". Also, it's YHVH per acrostics in the Hebrew manuscripts, YeHoVaH or Jehovah being an English transliteration with vowels added.

The name 'Jesus' orginates from Greek Iesous (means 'Yehovah is salvation'). The KJV name Joshua is an English transliteration of the equivalent Greek Iesous. The Hebrew for Joshua is Yehowshu'a. Thus when we say Jesus Christ, or Yehowshu'a, in whatever language, The Father's Name is included. Christ Jesus' name cannot be separated from The Father's Name per the original Hebrew. Also, many of the names of the OT prophets have some type of inclusion of God's Name, like Isaiah (Yesha'ya, which means 'Yah has saved'). Ezekiel = Yechezq'el (God strengthens) with EL being another one of God's Names.

The 1800's Christian scholar E.W. Bullinger has a whole Appendix on the different Biblical Titles of GOD you might find interesting.

The scripture clearly teaches us that The Word became flesh, not The Father.

Jehovah is a perverted name name for God.

You can look for yourself Strongs 1943 and Strongs 3050 a compound word.

YHWH is the Name which Jesus claimed He was. John 8


Yes He is the express image of The Father.

Jesus Christ is The Lord of the old testament, which He sometimes manifested Himself as The Angel of The Lord or The Lord or as God as you can read in Exodus 3, Genesis 16 or Judges 13.


He is not God The Father.


JLB

[veteran]

The scripture clearly teaches us that The Word became flesh, not The Father.

Jehovah is a perverted name name for God.

You can look for yourself Strongs 1943 and Strongs 3050 a compound word.

YHWH is the Name which Jesus claimed He was. John 8


Yes He is the express image of The Father.

Jesus Christ is The Lord of the old testament, which He sometimes manifested Himself as The Angel of The Lord or The Lord or as God as you can read in Exodus 3, Genesis 16 or Judges 13.


He is not God The Father.


JLB

I think Apostle John was clear on Who The Word represents...

John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(KJV)

'Jehovah' is merely an English transliteration, nothing more.

In Isaiah, God said there is no other Saviour but Himself (Isa.45:21). Christ is GOD The Saviour. That's why Christ's Titles in Isaiah 9 are also given as "The everlasting Father", and "The mighty God". They cannot be separated like you're trying to do.

Something you may not realize, is that Satan's servants that have crept into many Churches today push ideas of 'humanism' about our Lord Jesus Christ, trying to separate Him apart from God The Father, even trying to treat Christ as nothing more than a prophet (which Islam does, along with other of the world's religions). If that were so, then we have a major problem, because if Christ is not GOD, then we would be wrongly thinking to be saved by someone lesser than God Himself, which is impossible, but exactly what Satan wants us to believe.

Edited by veteran, 18 June 2012 - 08:45 PM.

[HammerStone]

I don't usually do this, but I have a major issue with the Oneness doctrine.

They essentially believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are manifestations of God. This differs strongly (although it only seems subtle) from a three-person trinity where the persons are eternal. To answer your question, I'm not going to write someone off because of denomination, but I have a major issue with the manifestation interpretation.

[veteran]

I don't usually do this, but I have a major issue with the Oneness doctrine.

They essentially believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are manifestations of God. This differs strongly (although it only seems subtle) from a three-person trinity where the persons are eternal. To answer your question, I'm not going to write someone off because of denomination, but I have a major issue with the manifestation interpretation.

Well, I don't claim to be a 'Oneness' spokesman. And I do believe in the Triune Godhead concept. But the evidence about Christ in Isaiah 7 & 9 and again in Matthew 1:23 causes me to refuse to separate any of The Three apart from each other as Spirit, which includes the idea of Christ's Spirit which is different from His flesh body given through Mary.

[aspen2]

Sorry, but the doctrine of the Trinity is foundational to Christianity. It cannot be compromised - in fact, all heresies involve errors in the true nature of God as a Trinity.

Finally, although a few Catholics like to pretend that Protestantism and even Eastern Orthodox Churches are heresies - it is absolutely false - both churches teach the true nature of God and baptize followers in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

[veteran]

The true idea of ONE God does not comprimise the early Church doctrine of the Triune Godhead. I think some here need to review the following Scriptures.


Rom 3:30
30 Seeing it is one God, Which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
(KJV)

1 Cor 8:6
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of Whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by Whom are all things, and we by Him.
(KJV)

Eph 4:6
6 One God and Father of all, Who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
(KJV)

1 Tim 2:5
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(KJV)

James 2:19
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
(KJV)

Isa 7:14
14 Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
(KJV)

Isa 9:6-7
6 For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
(KJV)

Matt 1:23
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
(KJV)


John 14:8-9
8 Philip saith unto him, "Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us."
9 Jesus saith unto him, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, 'Shew us the Father?' "
(KJV)


To not recognize Jesus Christ as GOD come in the flesh is to try and say He was just an ordinary man like us, and basically propose that it's flesh that saves us. It is to refuse that Christ Jesus was fully God while in the flesh as fully man, and fully God before and after His time in the flesh. That's a doctrine of the Jews, and not one the early Christian Church had.

If Christ is not God then He could never have been named "Immanuel" per Isaiah 7 and Matthew 1:23. Likewise in Isaiah 9:6 He would never have been called, "The mighty God, The everlasting Father." Nor would Jesus have told Philip that if he had seen Him then he had seen The Father.

Heb 1:1-3
1 God, Who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, Whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by Whom also He made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
(KJV)

Trying to treat our Lord Jesus Christ as man only is to attempt to remove "the brightness" of The Father's glory, and Christ as "the express image of His person". It's also Biblically wrong to assume that Christ is only like an angel that was created.

As Hebrews 1 reveals, Christ was part of The Godhead prior to the creation of the worlds. In Revelation 22 Jesus refers to Himself as Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end in the everlasting sense, which is from the Book of Isaiah about God saying He is the first and the last, that there is no other God besides Him.

So just what is the difference if Christ is also God? It's simple. Per John 4 "God is a Spirit". That includes The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. They cannot be separated as per that Spirit. Notice I did not say per flesh, but as per Spirit. When Christ was born through woman's womb into flesh like us, His Spirit was still as God, which is why... Scripture like Heb.1; Isaiah 7 and Isaiah 9:6. The distinction is about Jesus' suffering in the flesh upon the cross for the remission of sins for those who believe on The Father through... Jesus Christ, which is how Jesus Christ is our Mediator to The Father.

[aspen2]

Oneness Pentecostalism derives its distinctive name from its teaching on the Godhead, which is popularly referred to as the Oneness doctrine.^[2] This doctrine states that there is one God, a singular spirit who manifests himself in many different ways, including as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This stands in sharp contrast to the doctrine of three distinct and eternal "persons" posited by Trinitarian theology. Oneness believers baptize in the name of Jesus Christ, commonly referred to as Jesus-name baptism, rather than using the Trinitarian formula.

Oneness Pentecostals are Modalists - Modalism is a heresy.

[HammerStone]

Aspen, we are in agreement on the trinity being essential to Christianity.

Well, I don't claim to be a 'Oneness' spokesman. And I do believe in the Triune Godhead concept. But the evidence about Christ in Isaiah 7 & 9 and again in Matthew 1:23 causes me to refuse to separate any of The Three apart from each other as Spirit, which includes the idea of Christ's Spirit which is different from His flesh body given through Mary.

Modalism is the name if you want to read more, but this basically asserts more than one God, three Persons. Modalism's key problem is that it teaches that the one God manifests as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. To drill this down further, it means that God might show up as Jesus at one point, the Father another, and the Spirit the next. This is an old discussion, but we can cite any number of passages where a certain role is giving to the Spirit or the Son. We can see that it's a complicated relationship from where Jesus prayed to God:

Matthew 7:39
Going a little farther, He fell facedown and prayed, "My Father! If it is possible, let this cup pass from Me. Yet not as I will, but as You will."

One God, yes. However, Jesus was since before the foundation of the world. He's existed eternally, which is something the Modalism heresy totally denies because it sets up a God who exists as 1 out of the 3 at a given moment.

[UHCAIan]

Are Modalists or Oneness believers damned? Will they be condemned to Hell? many believe in Jesus Christ.

[veteran]

Aspen, we are in agreement on the trinity being essential to Christianity.



Modalism is the name if you want to read more, but this basically asserts more than one God, three Persons. Modalism's key problem is that it teaches that the one God manifests as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. To drill this down further, it means that God might show up as Jesus at one point, the Father another, and the Spirit the next. This is an old discussion, but we can cite any number of passages where a certain role is giving to the Spirit or the Son. We can see that it's a complicated relationship from where Jesus prayed to God:

Matthew 7:39
Going a little farther, He fell facedown and prayed, "My Father! If it is possible, let this cup pass from Me. Yet not as I will, but as You will."

One God, yes. However, Jesus was since before the foundation of the world. He's existed eternally, which is something the Modalism heresy totally denies because it sets up a God who exists as 1 out of the 3 at a given moment.

The idea of the Divine Nature of The Godhead as three SEPARATE Persons is an idea of men. The idea that because Jesus Christ is called The Son of God means He is not God is an idea from men also.

When Jesus answered in John 8 with "Before Abraham was, I AM," He was showing Himself as God. When The Father declared Christ's Titles in Isaiah 9:6 to include "The everlasting Father" and "The mighty God", He was also revealing this. So to try and separate The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit literally like you're trying to do, you must first deny those Scripture evidences like John 8:58 and Isaiah 9:6, along with many others.

[HammerStone]

The idea of the Divine Nature of The Godhead as three SEPARATE Persons is an idea of men. The idea that because Jesus Christ is called The Son of God means He is not God is an idea from men also.

When Jesus answered in John 8 with "Before Abraham was, I AM," He was showing Himself as God. When The Father declared Christ's Titles in Isaiah 9:6 to include "The everlasting Father" and "The mighty God", He was also revealing this. So to try and separate The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit literally like you're trying to do, you must first deny those Scripture evidences like John 8:58 and Isaiah 9:6, along with many others.

First off, me stating three distinct persons somehow denies John 8:58 or Isaiah 9:6 is complete balderdash. I refute that notion completely and refute to address it any further as it's simply a red herring argument. If anything, what you're citing denies the Oneness idea because Jesus at the very least says he was around prior to Abraham. In Oneness doctrine, Jesus is just a manifestation with no enduring/persistent existence.

Other than saying you're accusing me of something I'm not saying - clearly insinuating that I do not believe in Jesus as fully man and fully God - I'll simply let Paul (the Bible) do the talking on the issue:

2 Corinthians 13:14 ESV
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

God is one, but God is three persons. This is why they consistently address one another in the New Testament. The Oneness doctrine, which you are associating yourself with by defending it so clearly, refutes the notion that God is the three and merely asserts that God shows up at certain times as one. Clearly, at the Baptism of Jesus, the Father and Spirit are present in addition to the Son. That does not change the notion of one God, but that refutes the heretical notion of Oneness theology.

Are Modalists or Oneness believers damned? Will they be condemned to Hell? many believe in Jesus Christ.

I don't prefer to write anyone off unless they attempt to either supplant Jesus (with additional things/works/etc) or deny Jesus. It's a dangerous doctrine that can lead to worse things, but I am not equipped to make that judgement call; I detest blanket statements on something like this. The authority to make that call is God's alone on the matter.

[veteran]

First off, me stating three distinct persons somehow denies John 8:58 or Isaiah 9:6 is complete balderdash. I refute that notion completely and refute to address it any further as it's simply a red herring argument. If anything, what you're citing denies the Oneness idea because Jesus at the very least says he was around prior to Abraham. In Oneness doctrine, Jesus is just a manifestation with no enduring/persistent existence.

Like I said before brother, I'm not a proponent of the so-called 'Oneness Doctrine'. So what I'm talking about is focused in The Scripture of God's Word, specifically the verses I mentioned. So I'm not sure I've even ever heard that idea from the doctrine that Jesus is a manifestation with no enduring/persistent existence. That idea is new to me.

Other than saying you're accusing me of something I'm not saying - clearly insinuating that I do not believe in Jesus as fully man and fully God - I'll simply let Paul (the Bible) do the talking on the issue:

My aim was to point out exactly that, because I've heard you declare Christ Jesus as both fully man and fully God. I mean, is Jesus Christ God or is He just The Son of God only? Those verses I mention make me say He is both, at the same time.

[UMCcalled]

I don't usually do this, but I have a major issue with the Oneness doctrine.

They essentially believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are manifestations of God. This differs strongly (although it only seems subtle) from a three-person trinity where the persons are eternal. To answer your question, I'm not going to write someone off because of denomination, but I have a major issue with the manifestation interpretation.

I fully agree with this. There's no need for me to say anything else on the matter.

[aspen2]

The problem with the doctrine of the Trinity is sola scriptura. It's truth is supported by Scripture and Tradition.

[Watchwithme]

Being a Trinitarian Pentecostal Christian we sometimes in fellowship with Oneness Pentecostals in prayer meetings, services, etc. Yes we disagree on baptismal formula, and the Trinitarian view of God's oneness and unity. But many Oneness Pentecostals I know have a genuine and strong belief in Jesus Christ, knows and abides by the holy writ (Bible), and live a holy life. Are Oneness Pentecostals biblicaly sound or heretical? I have a genuine and strong need to know. Some members of my own family are Oneness Pentecostal.

Core Beliefs of Oneness Pentecostalism

• Oneness of God (God is One) believes Father, Son, & Holy Ghost are titles for Jesus who is the One God. Biblical
• Salvation by grace through faith and living a holy life. Very Vague
• Baptism in Jesus' name only (meaningless)
• Speaking in Tongues as the sole evidence of the Holy Ghost. Utter Tripe
• Holy Bible is the infallible word of God. What version?

These beliefs seem biblical and sound but are they?

Edited by Watchwithme, 22 July 2012 - 03:17 AM.

[Pelaides]

When someone starts talking gibberish pretending to be talking in tongues,just to impress the other members of the church,doesnt that take away from their credibility?Pretending you have a divine gift from God when you dont is called deception,and you will have to answer for that on judgement day.