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The Doctrine of Salvation


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#1 Watchwithme

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 04:58 AM

Salvation: The most powerful and dynamic word in the English language! It has root meanings of rescue, safety, deliverance, defense, help, welfare, health, victory and prosperity. It is closely related to the word Redemption which means; ransom.

With this in mind I am excited to embark on this study through the doctrine of salvation because it is the single most important doctrine in all of Christendom. Because of this it comes under the most attack from the devil in the mind of both the believer and the unbeliever.

1. The meaning of Salvation. Salvation means to effect successfully the full delivery of someone from impending danger. The word carries with it twofold implications:

A. That someone needs to be saved.

1. Only a sick person needs a doctor. Man is desperately ill.

Isaiah 1:6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

Mat 9:12 But when he heard it, he said, They that are whole have no need of a physician, but they that are sick.

2. Only an accused person needs a lawyer. Man stands condemned in God’s court of law.

Rom 3:10 -19 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God; They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good, no, not, so much as one: Their throat is an open sepulchre; With their tongues they have used deceit: The poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood; Destruction and misery are in their ways; And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God.

3. Only a drowning person needs a lifeguard. Man finds himself flooded by the waters of sin.

Psalm 69:1-2 For the Chief Musician; set to Shoshanim. A Psalm of David. Save me, O God; For the waters are come in unto my soul. I sink in deep mire, where there is no standing: I am come into deep waters, where the floods overflow me.

4. In his excellent book, Salvation is Forever Robert Gromacki lists the following reasons men are lost.

a. They are lost because of their rejection of biblical revelation

Psalm 19:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.



Act 14:17 Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.

Rom 1:19-20 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse. God is not invisible!

b. They are lost because of disobeying their own conscience.

Rom 2:14-16 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

c. They are lots because of their relationship to the world.

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Jam 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

1Jo 2:15 - 17 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

d. They are lost because of their relationship to Satan.

Mat 4:8-9 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

John 8:42 -44 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.




John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1Jo 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

e. They are lost because of their relationship to sin.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Mar 7:20-23 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

A sinner may not be as bad as he can be (like an Adolf Hitler) but he is nevertheless as bad off as he can be. Man is both dead (spiritually) and dying (physically) See Gen 2:17. This can be likened to a condemned criminal on death row awaiting the electric chair and suffering from terminal cancer.

f. They are lost because of their relationship to God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Believeth (Mah; Greek) What! End, good, purpose, thing.

Eph 2:12 that ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Jud 1:18-19 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

B. That someone is able and willing to save. Such a Saviour must fulfill both requirements.
  • He must be able to save. It is possible for a person to have the desire but not the ability to save another individual. Many a physician has stood in utter frustration bedside the bed of dying patient, wanting so much to give aid, but totally helpless to so.
  • He must be willing to save. It is possible for a person to have the ability to save but not the willingness to save another individual. In 1978 a man in the United Sates, in desperate need of a rare blood transfusion, died. The tragedy of the story was that he suffered and died needlessly, for one of his relatives possessed that rare type of blood and could have easily donated some, stubbornly refused. Perhaps the greatest ability after all is availability.
II The source of Salvation. Jesus Christ is the source of salvation. He meets both requirements.

Hebrews 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

2Ti 1:12 For which cause I suffer also these things: yet I am not ashamed; for I know him whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that he is able to guard that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore also he is able to save to the uttermost them that draw near unto God through him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.


Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to guard you from stumbling, and to set you before the presence of his glory without blemish in exceeding joy,

2. He is willing to save.

Mat 8:2-3 And behold, there came to him a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. And he stretched forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou made clean. And straightway his leprosy was cleansed.

1Ti 2:3-4 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.

2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Taken Mostly from Willmington's Guide To the Bible. More to come if interested...

Edited by Watchwithme, 21 July 2012 - 05:03 AM.

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"Howbeit when the Son of man cometh, shall He find faith on earth?" said Jesus. He will find faith in individual men and women, but the general organised Christian Church has slipped almost wholesale onto the wrong roads to the kingdom. OSWALD CHAMBERS 1915. Over 100 years ago

#2 Webers_Home

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 09:16 AM

.
Whatever somebody's doctrine of salvation entails; it had better be cause
for celebration or I'm not listening.

†. Luke 2:10 . . I bring you good news of great joy which will be to all
people.

A gospel that fails to guarantee people a God-proof, sin-proof, Devil-proof,
Ten Commandments-proof rescue from the wrath of God, and 24/7 protection
from retribution, is no reason for "great joy" in my book.

†. Rom 12:12 . . Rejoicing in hope

I see no valid motivation for rejoicing in a doctrine of salvation that does not
give people a 110% fail-safe expectation of making it to safety when they
pass over to the other side.

Cliff
/

Edited by Webers_Home, 21 July 2012 - 09:18 AM.

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#3 Episkopos

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 09:55 AM

The doctrine of salvation is the biggest stumblingblock to the truth in Christ.
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Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended by Christ Jesus.

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#4 Watchwithme

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 09:02 PM

.
Whatever somebody's doctrine of salvation entails; it had better be cause
for celebration or I'm not listening.

†. Luke 2:10 . . I bring you good news of great joy which will be to all
people.

A gospel that fails to guarantee people a God-proof, sin-proof, Devil-proof,
Ten Commandments-proof rescue from the wrath of God, and 24/7 protection
from retribution, is no reason for "great joy" in my book.

†. Rom 12:12 . . Rejoicing in hope

I see no valid motivation for rejoicing in a doctrine of salvation that does not
give people a 110% fail-safe expectation of making it to safety when they
pass over to the other side.

Cliff
/


There is no such thing as 110% percent of anything. But clearly the doctrine is salvation is reason for great joy, so I have no idea what pushed your buttons to incite what appears to be somewhat of a bitter rant. You certainly don't sound joyful!

The doctrine of salvation is the biggest stumblingblock to the truth in Christ.


I think you need to explain what you mean, because Christ is Salvation. So what you have just said is complete and utter baulderdash! I Thought this was a Christian Forum. Silly me!

Edited by Watchwithme, 21 July 2012 - 09:03 PM.

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"Howbeit when the Son of man cometh, shall He find faith on earth?" said Jesus. He will find faith in individual men and women, but the general organised Christian Church has slipped almost wholesale onto the wrong roads to the kingdom. OSWALD CHAMBERS 1915. Over 100 years ago

#5 Episkopos

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 09:48 PM

There is no such thing as 110% percent of anything. But clearly the doctrine is salvation is reason for great joy, so I have no idea what pushed your buttons to incite what appears to be somewhat of a bitter rant. You certainly don't sound joyful!



I think you need to explain what you mean, because Christ is Salvation. So what you have just said is complete and utter baulderdash! I Thought this was a Christian Forum. Silly me!


The letter kills but the Spirit gives life!!
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Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended by Christ Jesus.

נתהלך באור
Walk in the Light!

#6 Watchwithme

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 10:00 PM

The letter kills but the Spirit gives life!!


What's your point? Your first post came across as some what scathing of my OP, why?

You also need to explain the ridiculous comment that "the doctrine/teaching of salvation is the greatest stumbling block to the truth of Christ. What train are you up on dude? I'm not trackin ya!

Edited by Watchwithme, 21 July 2012 - 10:10 PM.

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"Howbeit when the Son of man cometh, shall He find faith on earth?" said Jesus. He will find faith in individual men and women, but the general organised Christian Church has slipped almost wholesale onto the wrong roads to the kingdom. OSWALD CHAMBERS 1915. Over 100 years ago

#7 haz

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 10:00 PM

I think you need to explain what you mean, because Christ is Salvation. So what you have just said is complete and utter baulderdash! I Thought this was a Christian Forum. Silly me!


Hi Watchwithme,

I see you got a response from Episkopos (aka, Epi or EK), hence your reply above.

You'll probably find, like I did, that Epi makes ambiguous claims seemingly to lead others into doubting God's promise.
It almost seems like Christ is a stumbling block for Epi.
Beware of Epi's leaven (doctrine).
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#8 Watchwithme

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 10:03 PM

Hi Watchwithme,

I see you got a response from Episkopos (aka, Epi or EK), hence your reply above.

You'll probably find, like I did, that Epi makes ambiguous claims seemingly to lead others into doubting God's promise.
It almost seems like Christ is a stumbling block for Epi.
Beware of Epi's leaven (doctrine).


Thanks for that bro, I was thinking that putting him on block was a good move, thanks for the confirmation.

Edited by Watchwithme, 21 July 2012 - 10:03 PM.

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"Howbeit when the Son of man cometh, shall He find faith on earth?" said Jesus. He will find faith in individual men and women, but the general organised Christian Church has slipped almost wholesale onto the wrong roads to the kingdom. OSWALD CHAMBERS 1915. Over 100 years ago

#9 Webers_Home

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 11:39 PM

There is no such thing as 110% percent of anything. But clearly the doctrine
is salvation is reason for great joy


No doubt you sincerely believed yourself speaking for God ex cathedra when
you composed that statement.

†. Mrk 16:15. . Go into all the world and preach the good news to everyone,
everywhere.

Judging by the content of the posts on this thread; I'd have to say that some
of us are unprepared to comply with the Lord's edict; or with Peter's either
for that matter.

†. 1Pet 3:15 . . Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks
you to give the reason for the hope that you have.

What is Bible hope? Is it crossing one's fingers? Is it wishful thinking? Is it
yearning for the best while in the back of your mind dreading the worst? No,
the koiné Greek word is elpis (el-pece') which means: anticipate.

Webster's defines anticipate as: to look forward to as certain; viz: expect. In
other words: elpis hope is a know-so hope that's in the bag in contrast to a
hope-so hope that's not yet in the bag, and may in fact never be.

So: if you, like me, are 110% certain you'll be taken to paradise the moment
you cross over to the next life: then you have elpis hope. But if you're not
110% sure of your destination, then you have hope-so hope. It would be a
waste of motion to give people a reason for your having hope-so hope since
you'd have nothing better to offer them than what everybody has already;
except maybe better odds-- but odds are not a sure thing: they're still a
gamble. In point of fact, your better-odds good news wouldn't be good at
all; it'd just be another Idiot's Guide To Casino Gambling.

†. Luke 2:8-11 . . I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the
people.

Sorry; but I don't see any "great joy" in having better odds. A sure thing
would be more like it.

†. Rom 12:12 . . Rejoicing in hope

When people are praying for the best, while in the back of their mind
dreading the worst, they have absolutely no cause for celebration; no;
what they do have is plenty of cause to be worried.

Some people's gospel message goes like this: Believe on the Lord Jesus
Christ and you'll have a better chance of being saved. Well; in my book a better
chance is still a chance; which Webster's defines as: luck; both good and bad.

†. Eph 4:4 . .You were called to one (elpis)hope when you were called.

People lacking 110% expectation of going to heaven when they die have yet
to respond to the Lord's call.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you: those who listen to my message, and believe
in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for
their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

Webster's defines "never" as: at no time, not in any degree, nor under any
condition.

Cliff
/
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#10 Watchwithme

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 02:42 AM

No doubt you sincerely believed yourself speaking for God ex cathedra when
you composed that statement.

†. Mrk 16:15. . Go into all the world and preach the good news to everyone,
everywhere.

Judging by the content of the posts on this thread; I'd have to say that some
of us are unprepared to comply with the Lord's edict; or with Peter's either
for that matter.

†. 1Pet 3:15 . . Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks
you to give the reason for the hope that you have.

What is Bible hope? Is it crossing one's fingers? Is it wishful thinking? Is it
yearning for the best while in the back of your mind dreading the worst? No,
the koiné Greek word is elpis (el-pece') which means: anticipate.

Webster's defines anticipate as: to look forward to as certain; viz: expect. In
other words: elpis hope is a know-so hope that's in the bag in contrast to a
hope-so hope that's not yet in the bag, and may in fact never be.

So: if you, like me, are 110% certain you'll be taken to paradise the moment
you cross over to the next life: then you have elpis hope. But if you're not
110% sure of your destination, then you have hope-so hope. It would be a
waste of motion to give people a reason for your having hope-so hope since
you'd have nothing better to offer them than what everybody has already;
except maybe better odds-- but odds are not a sure thing: they're still a
gamble. In point of fact, your better-odds good news wouldn't be good at
all; it'd just be another Idiot's Guide To Casino Gambling.

†. Luke 2:8-11 . . I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the
people.

Sorry; but I don't see any "great joy" in having better odds. A sure thing
would be more like it.

†. Rom 12:12 . . Rejoicing in hope

When people are praying for the best, while in the back of their mind
dreading the worst, they have absolutely no cause for celebration; no;
what they do have is plenty of cause to be worried.

Some people's gospel message goes like this: Believe on the Lord Jesus
Christ and you'll have a better chance of being saved. Well; in my book a better
chance is still a chance; which Webster's defines as: luck; both good and bad.

†. Eph 4:4 . .You were called to one (elpis)hope when you were called.

People lacking 110% expectation of going to heaven when they die have yet
to respond to the Lord's call.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you: those who listen to my message, and believe
in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for
their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

Webster's defines "never" as: at no time, not in any degree, nor under any
condition.

Cliff
/


No idea what you are on about pal. Start another thread or at least stay on topic


Edited by Watchwithme, 22 July 2012 - 02:43 AM.

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"Howbeit when the Son of man cometh, shall He find faith on earth?" said Jesus. He will find faith in individual men and women, but the general organised Christian Church has slipped almost wholesale onto the wrong roads to the kingdom. OSWALD CHAMBERS 1915. Over 100 years ago

#11 Episkopos

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 09:02 AM

It is completely natural that a church system that seeks to increase in size through adding as many people as possible would open up the doors too wide so that more can come in than should. After all, any system seeks to become greater through more adherents. It is the same with a religion...the more adherents, the greater the religion is seen. But true Christianity works the opposite way. There are actually very few in any given church that truly put God first....and fewer still who walk by the Spirit. Jesus said that many who think they are Christians will be rejected through a lack of truly knowing Him. Churchianity as opposed to the bibllcal Christianity, follows every wind of doctrine. One of these winds is the emphasis on a personal salvation. Whereas in the early church the basis was the church and the fellowship of the saints...now it is more the idea of a individualist concept of the pursuit of an individual happiness.

But the weight of the gospel has been lost in favour of a doctrine that caters to the larger group. Is popularity really a Christian criteria? What about being despised and rejected by this world as Jesus was? Has the world grown closer to God since the time of Jesus?

Edited by Episkopos, 22 July 2012 - 09:02 AM.

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Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended by Christ Jesus.

נתהלך באור
Walk in the Light!

#12 Axehead

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 09:49 AM

.
Whatever somebody's doctrine of salvation entails; it had better be cause
for celebration or I'm not listening.

†. Luke 2:10 . . I bring you good news of great joy which will be to all
people.

A gospel that fails to guarantee people a God-proof, sin-proof, Devil-proof,
Ten Commandments-proof rescue from the wrath of God, and 24/7 protection
from retribution, is no reason for "great joy" in my book.

†. Rom 12:12 . . Rejoicing in hope

I see no valid motivation for rejoicing in a doctrine of salvation that does not
give people a 110% fail-safe expectation of making it to safety when they
pass over to the other side.

Cliff
/


If I am in the middle of the ocean and drowning and someone throws me a life-preserver, it is a cause for great joy. However, it is false joy to just look at it and talk about it and I will soon find out how false that joy is. I have to put it on and hold onto it or it does me NO GOOD.

Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Axehead

Edited by Axehead, 22 July 2012 - 09:50 AM.

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Not one concern of ours is small

 

If we belong to Him,

To teach us this, the Lord of all

Once made the iron to swim.

John Newton (2 Kings 6:5)


#13 Webers_Home

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 11:45 AM

If I am in the middle of the ocean and drowning and someone throws me a
life-preserver, it is a cause for great joy. However, it is false joy to just look
at it and talk about it and I will soon find out how false that joy is. I have to
put it on and hold onto it or it does me NO GOOD.

Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for
the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.


The epistle to the Romans was written not to people in danger of going to
hell; but rather, to Christians who were already members of God's family.

†. Rom 1:7 . .To all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace
to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

In order for people on the road to hell to become legitimate members of
God's family, it is necessary for them not to put on the Lord, but rather, to
accept his message and undergo regeneration.

†. John 1:12-13 . . But as many as received him, to them he gave the right
to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name: who
were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man,
but of God.

It's often alleged that the epistles present a different gospel than the original
four; but that's because the allegers are unaware that the epistles were
written to churches; while the gospels were written to the world. In other words:
the four gospels contain information befitting the lost, while the epistles contain
information befitting people who are no longer lost. Put another way: the four
gospels are primarily for the benefit of the damned, while the epistles are strictly
for the benefit of the Lord's disciples; thus complying with his mandate to educate
believers.

†. Mtt 28:18-20 . . Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them
in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe
all that I commanded you.


No idea what you are on about pal. Start another thread or at least stay on topic


Is this thread not about the doctrine of salvation?

Cliff
/

Edited by Webers_Home, 22 July 2012 - 11:46 AM.

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#14 Stan

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 04:57 PM

Christ died and effectively redeemed everyone.
Galatians 3:12-14
New International Version (NIV)
12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.” 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

When we accept that redemption and confess Christ as our Saviour, we ARE saved.
Romans 10:9-10
New International Version (NIV)
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

It is as simple as that.

Edited by Stan, 22 July 2012 - 04:58 PM.

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Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect. 1 Peter 3:15 (NIV)

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (NIV)

For this very reason, make every effort by your faith to produce virtue, by virtue knowledge, by knowledge self-control, by self-control steadfastness, by steadfastness godliness, by godliness brotherly affection, and by brotherly affection love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will make you effective and productive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:5-8 (NIV)


I use the NIV 2011 mostly when quoting. I also use NASB, HCSB, and the new MOUNCE Reverse Interlinear NT.

#15 brother dave

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 05:14 PM

the simplicity of Christ? as you have received Him so walk ye in Him! very simple, the Holy Spirit convicts the sinner. the sinner calls for mercy and the salvation of Christ Jesus! it is received when HE is believed! as is the Kingdom. The Holy Spirit being received at the point of confession of faith. for HE has become unto us wisdom, sanctification, and redemption. only Christ and His work none of ours is accepted before the Father
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#16 Watchwithme

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 07:35 PM

.
Whatever somebody's doctrine of salvation entails; it had better be cause
for celebration or I'm not listening.


The Doctrine of Salvation is the Doctrine of Salvation, its not "somebody's"

A gospel that fails to guarantee people a God-proof, sin-proof, Devil-proof,
Ten Commandments-proof rescue from the wrath of God, and 24/7 protection
from retribution, is no reason for "great joy" in my book.


Off topic

I see no valid motivation for rejoicing in a doctrine of salvation that does not
give people a 110% fail-safe expectation of making it to safety when they
pass over to the other side.


Off topic

Christ died and effectively redeemed everyone.
Galatians 3:12-14
New International Version (NIV)
12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.” 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

When we accept that redemption and confess Christ as our Saviour, we ARE saved.
Romans 10:9-10
New International Version (NIV)
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

It is as simple as that.


The NIV is the most abominable Satanic gnostic text on the market, it's not the word of God
Yre

Edited by Watchwithme, 22 July 2012 - 07:33 PM.

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"Howbeit when the Son of man cometh, shall He find faith on earth?" said Jesus. He will find faith in individual men and women, but the general organised Christian Church has slipped almost wholesale onto the wrong roads to the kingdom. OSWALD CHAMBERS 1915. Over 100 years ago

#17 Webers_Home

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 11:14 AM

The Doctrine of Salvation is the Doctrine of Salvation, its not "somebody's"


Then you sincerely believe that your interpretation of the Bible's doctrine of salvation
speaks for God ex cathedra; viz: infallibly?

Do you really think it beyond possibility that your view of the Bible's doctrine of
salvation might have a few things wrong with it?

BTW: this area of the site is for debate. Perhaps you'd be happier setting up a blog
where you'd have some control over people's reactions to your ideas.

Cliff
/
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#18 Episkopos

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 11:47 AM

A gospel that fails to guarantee people a God-proof, sin-proof, Devil-proof,
Ten Commandments-proof rescue from the wrath of God, and 24/7 protection
from retribution, is no reason for "great joy" in my book.


Who would seek for a scheme that is God-proof?
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Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended by Christ Jesus.

נתהלך באור
Walk in the Light!

#19 Stan

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 02:19 PM

The NIV is the most abominable Satanic gnostic text on the market, it's not the word of God
Yre


:wacko: Yeh well that really brings all your rants into perspective.
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Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect. 1 Peter 3:15 (NIV)

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (NIV)

For this very reason, make every effort by your faith to produce virtue, by virtue knowledge, by knowledge self-control, by self-control steadfastness, by steadfastness godliness, by godliness brotherly affection, and by brotherly affection love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will make you effective and productive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:5-8 (NIV)


I use the NIV 2011 mostly when quoting. I also use NASB, HCSB, and the new MOUNCE Reverse Interlinear NT.

#20 Shep

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 04:32 PM

Can we all try to use a different approach on how we answer people here, it is not edifing to God with the nasty remarks...

Shep
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#21 Watchwithme

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 04:37 PM

Who would seek for a scheme that is God-proof?

God?

Can we all try to use a different approach on how we answer people here, it is not edifing to God with the nasty remarks...

Shep


Stan has been like this from Post one. Sorted, ignore function. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh, hows the serenity.

Edited by Watchwithme, 23 July 2012 - 04:41 PM.

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"Howbeit when the Son of man cometh, shall He find faith on earth?" said Jesus. He will find faith in individual men and women, but the general organised Christian Church has slipped almost wholesale onto the wrong roads to the kingdom. OSWALD CHAMBERS 1915. Over 100 years ago

#22 Webers_Home

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 09:14 PM

Who would seek for a scheme that is God-proof?


The Bible's plan of salvation is so well underwritten, that I can stand up here
on the world wide web and testify, in all sincerity and a good conscience,
that I am going to heaven and not even God can stop me now.

How is that possible? It's possible because my safety is based upon
unconditional promises rather than upon personal performance.

This is not without precedence. When God passed ownership of the land of
Palestine to Abraham, He covenanted it to him on the basis of a promise
rather than the old boy's performance.

†. Gal 3:17-18 . . And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and
thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by
God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. For if the
inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to
Abraham as a promise.

The so-called Palestinian Covenant is an unconditional covenant. In other
words: no matter what Yhvh's people do now, they will never lose either
deed nor title to that land. They may get evicted from the land now and
then; but they will never lose possession of it because their possession is
based upon an unconditional promise rather than upon their personal
performance.

So: what am I saying? I'm saying that once the Bible's God makes an
unconditional promise, He's stuck with making good on that promise come
hell or high water because He could never justify withdrawing it without
seriously damaging His reputation as a person of integrity who can be
counted upon to never lie and/or make a promise He can't be trusted to
keep.

Where are all these unconditional promises located? Well; the first one is
located in the book of Genesis.

†. Gen 12:3 . . in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

And a pretty good number of additional promises are interspersed
throughout the gospel of John; beginning with this one:

†. John 3:14-17 . . As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so
must the Son of Man be lifted up; that whoever believes in him may have
eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He donated His only begotten
son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
For God didn't send His son into the world to condemn the world, but that
the world should be spared through him.

The incident to which that statement refers is recorded at Num 21:5-9.

Yhvh's the people became weary of eating manna all the time at every meal.
But instead of courteously, and diplomatically, petitioning their Lord and
Master for a different diet, they became hostile and confrontational, angrily
demanding better food. In reply; The Lord sent a swarm of poisonous vipers
among them; which began biting and killing people; and every bite was
100% fatal, no exceptions. Then the people realized their mistake and asked
Moses to intercede. In reply; The Lord instructed Moses to fashion an effigy
of the vipers and hoist it up on a pole in plain view so that everyone dying
from venom could look to the effigy for relief.

The only act of faith the snakebite victims had to perform was just "look to"
the serpent's effigy and they would be cured. You know what it means to
look to something? It means to fully depend upon it. Moses hoisted the
effigy up on a pole high enough where everyone could see it, and all in the
world snakebite victims had to do was find a spot where they could see it.

The snake-bitten Jews' only hope of escape was that serpentary effigy; there
was no other God-given options . Not synagogue, not yeshiva, not love, not
charity, not piety, not the Sabbath, not morality, not tithing, not
commandments, not holy days of obligation, not fasting, not self denial, not
even one's own personal religious affiliation nor anything else one might
associate with salvation would do-- not even prayers, because that effigy
was it-- as Long John Silver would say: join or hang, that's about the lay of it.

Now apply that incident to Christ's crucifixion and you've got a pretty good
idea of just how crucial to one's safety the cross really is.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you: those who listen to my message, and believe
in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for
their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

Standing on the promises of Christ my king;
Through eternal ages let his praises ring.
Glory in the highest I will shout and sing;
Standing on the promises of God.

Standing on the promises that cannot fail
When the howling storms of doubt and fear assail.
By the living word of God I shall prevail;
Standing on the promises of God.

Cliff
/
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#23 Watchwithme

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 09:30 PM

The Bible's plan of salvation is so well underwritten, that I can stand up here
on the world wide web and testify, in all sincerity and a good conscience,
that I am going to heaven and not even God can stop me now.


Cliff
/


Well said Cliff, Like it! :)
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"Howbeit when the Son of man cometh, shall He find faith on earth?" said Jesus. He will find faith in individual men and women, but the general organised Christian Church has slipped almost wholesale onto the wrong roads to the kingdom. OSWALD CHAMBERS 1915. Over 100 years ago

#24 Episkopos

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 09:45 PM

The Bible's plan of salvation is so well underwritten, that I can stand up here
on the world wide web and testify, in all sincerity and a good conscience,
that I am going to heaven and not even God can stop me now.


I can't begin to explain just how wrong that is.


They said something akin to this about the Titanic. Mere coicidence?

Edited by Episkopos, 23 July 2012 - 09:47 PM.

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Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended by Christ Jesus.

נתהלך באור
Walk in the Light!

#25 Watchwithme

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 10:24 PM

I can't begin to explain just how wrong that is.


They said something akin to this about the Titanic. Mere coicidence?


I think you will finds this is actually quite biblically sound. Other wsie you may need to begin to explain "how wrong it is" Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


PS: The titanic was skuttled on purpose.

Edited by Watchwithme, 23 July 2012 - 10:24 PM.

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"Howbeit when the Son of man cometh, shall He find faith on earth?" said Jesus. He will find faith in individual men and women, but the general organised Christian Church has slipped almost wholesale onto the wrong roads to the kingdom. OSWALD CHAMBERS 1915. Over 100 years ago

#26 haz

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 03:29 AM

I can't begin to explain just how wrong that is.


They said something akin to this about the Titanic. Mere coicidence?


To all here, beware the leaven (doctrine) of the Pharisees, Sadducees and Episkopos,
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#27 Watchwithme

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 04:24 AM

Then you sincerely believe that your interpretation of the Bible's doctrine of salvation
speaks for God ex cathedra; viz: infallibly?

Do you really think it beyond possibility that your view of the Bible's doctrine of
salvation might have a few things wrong with it?

BTW: this area of the site is for debate. Perhaps you'd be happier setting up a blog
where you'd have some control over people's reactions to your ideas.

Cliff
/


Scripture is not open to interpretation. Thank the Good Lord, that's why its so much fun being in places like this watching people try to interpret it. Tell me what's wrong with "my" view then Cliff, I'm all ears.
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"Howbeit when the Son of man cometh, shall He find faith on earth?" said Jesus. He will find faith in individual men and women, but the general organised Christian Church has slipped almost wholesale onto the wrong roads to the kingdom. OSWALD CHAMBERS 1915. Over 100 years ago

#28 Episkopos

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 05:09 AM

To all here, beware the leaven (doctrine) of the Pharisees, Sadducees and Episkopos,


Do you have a scripture for that? ;)
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Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended by Christ Jesus.

נתהלך באור
Walk in the Light!

#29 Webers_Home

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 08:42 AM

The Bible's plan of salvation is so well underwritten, that I can stand up here
on the world wide web and testify, in all sincerity and a good conscience,
that I am going to heaven and not even God can stop me now.

I can't begin to explain just how wrong that is.


Had you read the entire post instead of stopping with the first sentence, you
would have readily seen that my doctrine of salvation gives people something
positive to look forward to; unlike doctrines that leave people wondering what
to expect.

Cliff
/

Edited by Webers_Home, 24 July 2012 - 09:10 AM.

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#30 Episkopos

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 10:24 AM

Had you read the entire post instead of stopping with the first sentence, you
would have readily seen that my doctrine of salvation gives people something
positive to look forward to; unlike doctrines that leave people wondering what
to expect.

Cliff
/


Give the people what they want I guess!

To all here, beware the leaven (doctrine) of the Pharisees, Sadducees and Episkopos,


Isa_51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.
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Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended by Christ Jesus.

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