Let's look at what Paul tells us in [ Rom. 8: 24 ] this "hope" of salvation that St.Paul writes about is unnecessary if salvation is guaranteed . If we are guaranteed salvation, then why hope ?
The Doctrine of Salvation
Started by
Watchwithme
, Jul 21 2012 04:58 AM
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#32
Episkopos
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Posted 25 July 2012 - 12:43 PM
Let's look at what Paul tells us in [ Rom. 8: 24 ] this "hope" of salvation that St.Paul writes about is unnecessary if salvation is guaranteed . If we are guaranteed salvation, then why hope ?
Exactly! We are guaranteed an entrance into eternal life and salvation here and now through a receiving of the gift of God....but the everlasting nature of these is contingent upon our CONTINUING faithfulness to God and the ongoing training of God to bring about HIS will in us.
Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended by Christ Jesus.
נתהלך באור
Walk in the Light!
נתהלך באור
Walk in the Light!
#33
dragonfly
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Posted 25 July 2012 - 01:05 PM
Hi neophyte,
The hope of salvation is not 'salvation'. The hope of salvation is the resurrection of our bodies to everlasting life.
Daniel 12:2
Acts 26:6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers: 7 Unto which [promise] our twelve tribes, instantly serving [God] day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews. 8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?
Let's look at what Paul tells us in [ Rom. 8: 24 ] this "hope" of salvation that St.Paul writes about is unnecessary if salvation is guaranteed . If we are guaranteed salvation, then why hope ?
The hope of salvation is not 'salvation'. The hope of salvation is the resurrection of our bodies to everlasting life.
Daniel 12:2
Acts 26:6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers: 7 Unto which [promise] our twelve tribes, instantly serving [God] day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews. 8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?
Edited by dragonfly, 25 July 2012 - 01:09 PM.
Thy truth unchanged hath ever stood;
Thou savest those that on Thee call;
To them that seek Thee Thou art good,
To them that find Thee all in all.
http://www.hymntime....silver_hill.mid
John 3:8 The wind blows where it lists, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it comes,
and whither it goes: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
#34
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Posted 25 July 2012 - 04:49 PM
As a Catholic I go with how the Church interprets salvation, because the Catholic Church has interpreted Holy Scripture direct from Jesus to His apostles and they to their successors on down to us.
As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5-8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9-10, 1 Cor. 3:12-15). Like the apostle Paul, I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11-13).
#35
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Posted 25 July 2012 - 05:02 PM
As a Catholic I go with how the Church interprets salvation, because the Catholic Church has interpreted Holy Scripture direct from Jesus to His apostles and they to their successors on down to us.
Any other way is man's way , not God's Way. Protestantism has drumed up a myriad of different ways of being saved, and not a one of them the Bible way. Get with the program that Jesus left for all of us.
As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5-8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9-10, 1 Cor. 3:12-15). Like the apostle Paul, I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11-13).
No Catholic should grandstand on the practice of the RC denomination. How do you get torturing people for confessions before burning them???
Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended by Christ Jesus.
נתהלך באור
Walk in the Light!
נתהלך באור
Walk in the Light!
#36
Webers_Home
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Posted 25 July 2012 - 05:39 PM
.
The "hope" depicted in Rom 8:23-24 is in reference to one's anticipation of a
new body. In other words: I have eternal life now; my body will have eternal
life later.
†. John 5:24 . . I assure you: those who listen to my message, and believe
in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for
their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.
Cliff
/
Let's look at what Paul tells us in [ Rom. 8: 24 ] this "hope" of salvation that
St.Paul writes about is unnecessary if salvation is guaranteed . If we are
guaranteed salvation, then why hope ?
The "hope" depicted in Rom 8:23-24 is in reference to one's anticipation of a
new body. In other words: I have eternal life now; my body will have eternal
life later.
†. John 5:24 . . I assure you: those who listen to my message, and believe
in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for
their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.
Cliff
/
#37
neophyte
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Posted 26 July 2012 - 08:35 PM
After patient endurance in steadfast expectation, the full harvest of the Spirit's presence will be realized. On earth believers enjoy the firstfruilts, i.e. the Spirit, is a guarantee of the total liberation of their bodies from the influence of the rebellious old self [ 23 ] The New American Bible
Continue on to Rom. 8: 25 - But if we hope for what we do not see , we wait with endurance.
John 5:24- yes we can be condemned for our unrepentant sin [s] { John 20:23 ]
{ Proverbs 28: 13 ] and [ 2nd. Cor. 2: 10 ]
Continue on to Rom. 8: 25 - But if we hope for what we do not see , we wait with endurance.
John 5:24- yes we can be condemned for our unrepentant sin [s] { John 20:23 ]
{ Proverbs 28: 13 ] and [ 2nd. Cor. 2: 10 ]
#38
dragonfly
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Posted 27 July 2012 - 01:40 AM
Hi neophyte,
Please, is this a quote from the New American Bible?
If so, where does it say either 'on earth believers enjoy the firstfruits', or, 'ie the Spirit, is a guarantee of the total liberation of their bodies from the influence of the rebellious old self'?
Many thanks.
Please, is this a quote from the New American Bible?
On earth believers enjoy the firstfruilts, i.e. the Spirit, is a guarantee of the total liberation of their bodies from the influence of the rebellious old self [ 23 ] The New American Bible
If so, where does it say either 'on earth believers enjoy the firstfruits', or, 'ie the Spirit, is a guarantee of the total liberation of their bodies from the influence of the rebellious old self'?
Many thanks.
Thy truth unchanged hath ever stood;
Thou savest those that on Thee call;
To them that seek Thee Thou art good,
To them that find Thee all in all.
http://www.hymntime....silver_hill.mid
John 3:8 The wind blows where it lists, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it comes,
and whither it goes: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
#39
neophyte
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Posted 27 July 2012 - 08:32 AM
Hi neophyte,
Please, is this a quote from the New American Bible?
If so, where does it say either 'on earth believers enjoy the firstfruits', or, 'ie the Spirit, is a guarantee of the total liberation of their bodies from the influence of the rebellious old self'?
Many thanks.
dragonfly, it is found in the foot-notes on page 232 in the Book of Romans [ Rom. 8;23 ] The New American Bible
#40
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Posted 27 July 2012 - 08:51 AM
dragonfly, it is found in the foot-notes on page 232 in the Book of Romans [ Rom. 8;23 ] The New American Bible
Do new Americans need their own bible???
Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended by Christ Jesus.
נתהלך באור
Walk in the Light!
נתהלך באור
Walk in the Light!
#41
dragonfly
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Posted 27 July 2012 - 08:56 AM
Hi neophyte,
Many thanks for answering the question.
My Bible does not say 'believers enjoy the firstfruits'. Tyndale says we 'mourn'!!!
It says certain believers are 'the firstfruits', and, Christ is the firstfruits from the dead - 1 Cor 15:20, 23.
Romans 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
I would also challenge this statement: 'the Spirit, is a guarantee of the total liberation of their bodies from the influence of the rebellious old self', because it sounds as if whoever wrote it believes we can have the Spirit without agreeing to receive the death of 'the rebellious old self' In fact, 'old self' is completely inadequate to describe the total death of the sin which entered Adam, of which we may become partakers through faith in Christ's victory, His blood, His death and His resurrection. Then, we receive new life. That's where the Spirit comes in.
Many thanks for answering the question.
My Bible does not say 'believers enjoy the firstfruits'. Tyndale says we 'mourn'!!!
It says certain believers are 'the firstfruits', and, Christ is the firstfruits from the dead - 1 Cor 15:20, 23.
Romans 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
I would also challenge this statement: 'the Spirit, is a guarantee of the total liberation of their bodies from the influence of the rebellious old self', because it sounds as if whoever wrote it believes we can have the Spirit without agreeing to receive the death of 'the rebellious old self' In fact, 'old self' is completely inadequate to describe the total death of the sin which entered Adam, of which we may become partakers through faith in Christ's victory, His blood, His death and His resurrection. Then, we receive new life. That's where the Spirit comes in.
Thy truth unchanged hath ever stood;
Thou savest those that on Thee call;
To them that seek Thee Thou art good,
To them that find Thee all in all.
http://www.hymntime....silver_hill.mid
John 3:8 The wind blows where it lists, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it comes,
and whither it goes: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
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