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Calvinism

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#1
Stephen100

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I personally believe that Calvinism is a heresy, but it is becoming widely accepted by many Christians around the world. What do you think? Are you a Calvinist?


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#2
williemac

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 In my opinion, the term is a little too broad to accurately describe all of the varying beliefs that are under its umbrella, some of which are just fine. The category that best sums up those things that I disagree with is called hyper-Calvinism. But I understand where you are coming from in this and my own description would be that it is in error. Heresy is a strong word, and although it may be acurate to use it, it will build walls. And if we want to debate the subject, walls are counter productive. I will be away a few days, so am looking foreward to checking in on this one when I return.  Blessings, Howie


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#3
ChristRoseFromTheDead

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I personally believe that Calvinism is a heresy, but it is becoming widely accepted by many Christians around the world. What do you think? Are you a Calvinist?

 

Maybe you could start out with what you believe is heretical.


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This is the work of God: that you believe into the one [the father] set apart. John 6:29

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#4
Stephen100

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Maybe you could start out with what you believe is heretical.

 

I think it is obvious. I think the most disgusting thing about Calvinism is the idea that God chooses who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. Calvinists will say that people send themselves to hell by rejecting Jesus Christ, yet they also say that God has predestined them not to believe. I find this to be a disgusting heresy. 


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#5
BiggAndyy

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Too bad, there is great truth in that teaching.


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#6
JB_

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I think it is obvious. I think the most disgusting thing about Calvinism is the idea that God chooses who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. Calvinists will say that people send themselves to hell by rejecting Jesus Christ, yet they also say that God has predestined them not to believe. I find this to be a disgusting heresy. 

 

 

Maybe it's confusing, more than disgusting?


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It's a mark of an instructed mind to rest satisfied to the degree to which a subject omits and not seek exactness where only an approximation of the truth can be found. Aristotle

 

He that has the patience to learn simple things perfectly, acquires the skills to do difficult things easily. Anon

 

===================

 

 

 


#7
Stephen100

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Maybe it's confusing, more than disgusting?

 

I would say it's both confusing and disgusting.


Edited by Stephen100, 30 March 2013 - 04:25 AM.

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#8
Justin Mangonel

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Dear S,

 

I think that confusion is the main facet of Calvinism as well as the
trinity.  Both have logical fallacies inherent in their theology.
Historically, Calvinism worked out by Calvin himself was a rather strict and
dull affair.  That should have  been the end of it but like Marxism
people seem to keep making the mistake of thinking it has some merit even after
it has failed miserablely time after time.  Legalism by any other name
still smells bad. 

 

Personally, I think that those who believe in Calvinism simply demonstrate
that they have had limited direct contact with God.  No one, in my
opinion, who has met God and gotten to know Him would ever be deceived into
believing such a doctrine. Our Father is simply not that way. 

 

Calvinistic predestination obviates our free will. Free will is necessary
for choice.  Without choice we cannot sin
for sin is a choice.  Perhaps Pharaoh was
a vessel to dishonor but he had a choice…a profound choice…at least ten of
them. 

 

It is like making a doctrine out of infinity.  It cannot be done for
the concept cannot be fully understood because we, as finite beings, cannot understand it in the
first place.  Predestination is like that
for we cannot understand how someone can both be predestined and have free will
at the same time. 

 

Blessings,

 

Justin



 


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#9
ScottAU

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Reformed Theology can basically be summed up in the TULIP of Calvinism.


T Total Depravity

U Unconditional Election

L Limited Atonement

I Irresistible Grace

P Perseverance of the Saints



Total Depravity is basically summed up with...

 

Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and the Punishment thereof

I. Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptations of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit.[1]
This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy
counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.[2]


II. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion, with God,[3] and so became dead in sin,[4] and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body.[5]


III. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed;[6] and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.[7]


IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good,[8] and wholly inclined to all evil,[9] do proceed all actual transgressions.[10]

 

V. This corruption of nature, during this life, does remain in those that are regenerated;[11]
and although it be, through Christ, pardoned, and mortified; yet both
itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.[12]


VI. Every sin, both original and actual, being a transgression of the righteous law of God, and contrary thereunto,[13] does in its own nature, bring guilt upon the sinner,[14] whereby he is bound over to the wrath of God,[15] and curse of the law,[16] and so made subject to death,[17] with all miseries spiritual,[18] temporal,[19] and eternal.[20]

 

Article 6 Westminster Confession of Faith
http://www.reformed....cf_with_proofs/
        

    

Total depravity teaches that the reason people sin is because they were BORN SINNERS and are thus DISABLED from making the virtuous choice. Thus sin is not a criminal action due to an exercise of free agency in CHOOSING to do wrong, rather it is a SYMPTOM of a birth state.

Total Depravity COMPLETELY REDEFINES REPENTANCE from being "the change of mind that produces the forsaking of sin" to a "confession of sinfulness." Thus under Reformed Theology one approaches God STILL IN REBELLION.

Total Depravity also teaches that a regenerated Christian exists in an ongoing state of sinfulness and thus is a denial of the possibility of heart purity in this life. This is why Reformed teachers TWIST the Scriptures and teach that passages like Romans 7:14-25, 1Joh 1:8, 1Tim 1:15, Isa 64:6, etc. support an ongoing state of wickedness/sinfulness in a Christian. The doctrine of Total Depravity infiltrated and found wide acceptance in Christian orthodoxy through the
prolific influence of Augustine in the Fourth Century. Reformed theologians like Martin Luther and John Calvin held Augustine in very
high regard and used his material prolifically in formulating their theologies.


Total Depravity is an extremely dangerous teaching for it redefines the nature of man and thus redefines the entire Gospel message
by redefining repentance, faith, grace, salvation and sin.


We are not born sinners, nor are we born dead. Spiritual death is a result of sin.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

The First Death

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.


Unconditional Election is a symptom of the doctrine of Total Depravity. Due to the doctrine of Total Depravity teaching that man is DISABLED from the virtuous choice man therefore cannot seek God unless God Irresistibly Draws him. Thus those who are granted Irresistible Grace are Unconditionally Elected for there is NO CONDITION that a man can meet to merit election. Thus the Reformed doctrine of Predestination teaches that God unconditionally picks those who are to be saved and then draws them with irresistible grace. This doctrine also has its root in the writings of Augustine.

The Limited Atonement teaches that Jesus only died for the elect and in principle this is due to Penal Substitution theology. The Penal Substitution view of the atonement was invented by Reformers who took that Satisfaction view of Anselm  (http://en.wikipedia....ry_of_atonement ) and added a Penal aspect to it. The Anselmian view teaches that Christ died to satisfy divine justice in order that God could forgive sin without casting dispersion on His justice. The Moral Government view of people like Charles Finney is rooted in the Anselmian view.

The Reformers (many of who were lawyers) took the Satisfaction Model and added an aspect of judicial punishment to it and thus taught that Jesus literally bore the full wrath of God as a substitute for the sinner. This is where the phrase, "Jesus paid for your sins" comes from. The Bible does not actually teach that "Jesus
paid for your sins," instead it teaches that "we were bought with a price" and the context of that is "ransom" but that is another subject.

If Jesus was literally punished for sins as a substitute it necessitates that punishment cannot be due for those sins anymore which in turn gives support (in the Reformed view) to the doctrine of "unconditional eternal security" or "once saved always saved." Now if Jesus served as a wrath substitute for those who would be saved, by necessity He could not have served as a wrath substitute for those who would be lost.To imply that Jesus died for those who are to perish would imply double jeopardy or the same sins being punished twice, thus Reformed doctrine if forced to teach that Jesus ONLY died for the elect hence the Limited Atonement.

I already discussed Irresistible Grace so I'll move onto Perseverance of the Saints. Perseverance of the Saints is the teaching that due to God irresistibly drawing the unconditioned elect they will by necessity persevere in the faith.




The whole premise of Reformed Theology is established on a perverted view of the Sovereignty of God. In their minds the sovereignty of God negates the free agency of man. The truth is that God is the sovereign judge who has a sovereign standard but He has granted all men the free gift of free moral agency. Thus we can CHOOSE whom we will serve. We can resist the light of God and walk our own way and become enslaved to our base desires, or we can yield to the light of God and walk in His Spirit.

Reformed Theology consists of layer upon layer of error. Examining it is like peeling an onion, in the middle of the onion is the doctrine of Total Depravity which teaches that man is unable to make the choice to serve God. This inability has to be offset by the grace of God before an individual can turn to God. This is why they preach a SAVED IN SINS message.

The Bible teaches that the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men teaching them how they should go (Tit 2:11-12). Men have the choice as to whether to submit to God or to rebel against God. Jesus Christ is the light that lights all men who come into the world (Joh 1:9). There is no such thing as inability and there is no such thing as being born in a state of total depravity. Men can become totally depraved by willfully suppressing the truth in unrighteousness whereby God will
give them over to a reprobate mind (Rom 1:20-32) but men are not born that way.

Reformed theology is Satanic to the core because it utterly perverts the method by which sinners can approach God to be reconciled. Reformed theology perverts repentance and faith at the fundamental level convincing a sinner that they cannot forsake their sin (thus negating a genuine repentance) which leads to the conclusion and that they can actually be reconciled to God whilst still engaged in the known commission of sin. Thus they come to a false notion of salvation (based off thinking they have been cloaked by the imputed righteous of Christ and that Jesus paid their fine) while in reality they remain dead in their sins for they are still in rebellion to God.

Satan does not want people to repent and yield to God thus his attack is at the root of repentance and faith.

The false notion of salvation inculcated under this delusion inoculates the sinner very effectually against the real truth, thus the mind becomes firmly closed to the real truth of God. You'll clearly see this evidenced on these forums by many people who refuse to acknowledge certain passages in the Scripture which completely refute their
position.


The Bible says depart from iniquity. The Reformed Theologian teaches that YOU CANNOT.


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#10
IAmAWitness

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This Calvinist god some of you "Christians" serve is nothing more than a demon revealed in the Bible as an opponent of the Living God. Your god wants to damn people and not give them a choice in the matter because he "foreknows" and "predestinates" some to damnation. You almost have to be possessed to believe such nonsense and slander the true God with these evil attributes.


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#11
dripping yellow madness

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wow! some of you are so terrible in what you say!!! I dont know for sure what all calvin tought but to read the hate iamawitness and steph1000 has wrote I sure am glad you aren't my teachers! haha!


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#12
meshak

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Dear S,

 

I think that confusion is the main facet of Calvinism as well as the
trinity.  Both have logical fallacies inherent in their theology.
Historically, Calvinism worked out by Calvin himself was a rather strict and
dull affair.  That should have  been the end of it but like Marxism
people seem to keep making the mistake of thinking it has some merit even after
it has failed miserablely time after time.  Legalism by any other name
still smells bad. 

 

Personally, I think that those who believe in Calvinism simply demonstrate
that they have had limited direct contact with God.  No one, in my
opinion, who has met God and gotten to know Him would ever be deceived into
believing such a doctrine. Our Father is simply not that way. 

 

Calvinistic predestination obviates our free will. Free will is necessary
for choice.  Without choice we cannot sin
for sin is a choice.  Perhaps Pharaoh was
a vessel to dishonor but he had a choice…a profound choice…at least ten of
them. 

 

It is like making a doctrine out of infinity.  It cannot be done for
the concept cannot be fully understood because we, as finite beings, cannot understand it in the
first place.  Predestination is like that
for we cannot understand how someone can both be predestined and have free will
at the same time. 

 

Blessings,

 

Justin



 

excellent insight.



I personally believe that Calvinism is a heresy, but it is becoming widely accepted by many Christians around the world. What do you think? Are you a Calvinist?

John Calvin was vicious man.  It is just flabbergasting that why so many trinity believers follow his teachings.  Jesus says we know them by their fruit.

 

The truth is not in vicious men or churches.


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#13
dripping yellow madness

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how was he viscous? by the reading here I cant tell the difference! haha!


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#14
Axehead

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how was he viscous? by the reading here I cant tell the difference! haha!

DrippingYellow. Educate yourself on John Calvin. Look up Michael Servetus. Read Scott's post #9.  


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#15
dripping yellow madness

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wasnt servitus a criminal in the eyes of rome and the protestent church anyway"? If he was a criminal alreadyu why do so many get their panties all in a knot about Calvin? didnt John calvin plead for servutus to change his mind since he did not want to burn him at the steak?


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#16
meshak

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how was he viscous? by the reading here I cant tell the difference! haha!

Are you Calvinist?



wasnt servitus a criminal in the eyes of rome and the protestent church anyway"? If he was a criminal alreadyu why do so many get their panties all in a knot about Calvin? didnt John calvin plead for servutus to change his mind since he did not want to burn him at the steak?

Nope, he was faithful servant of Jesus.  He did not follow man-made doctrine of trinity.  That's why he got killed by RCC with cruel way.  This is why I call trinity churches are militant churches.


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#17
dripping yellow madness

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whatever! haha!


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#18
Rex

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Here's a last tip madness, give careful thought to what ever you type online. Eating your own words are on the menu If you don't


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It's not my job to open peoples eyes, it's my job to provide the opportunity.


#19
dripping yellow madness

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1 thing I  learned from y daddy before he died, he tiold me if I dont mean it I dont say it. I dont type very well yet, but I know what I mean too say and say what I mean. haha!


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#20
Rex

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Lets just say schizophrenia is a common online christian illness,

After a while it become apparent that the handling of scripture by some is not consistent but instead convenient 

 

The solution to the problem by some is to do away with it "scripture". Of course my understanding of this type is that they have no eyes or ears.


Edited by Rex, 30 March 2013 - 11:38 PM.

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It's not my job to open peoples eyes, it's my job to provide the opportunity.


#21
Butch5

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I personally believe that Calvinism is a heresy, but it is becoming widely accepted by many Christians around the world. What do you think? Are you a Calvinist?

I'm not a Calvinist anymore. I find that none of the 5 points can be shown from Scripture, they are simply inferred from passage that are out of context.



Dear S,

 

I think that confusion is the main facet of Calvinism as well as the
trinity.  Both have logical fallacies inherent in their theology.
Historically, Calvinism worked out by Calvin himself was a rather strict and
dull affair.  That should have  been the end of it but like Marxism
people seem to keep making the mistake of thinking it has some merit even after
it has failed miserablely time after time.  Legalism by any other name
still smells bad. 

 

Personally, I think that those who believe in Calvinism simply demonstrate
that they have had limited direct contact with God.  No one, in my
opinion, who has met God and gotten to know Him would ever be deceived into
believing such a doctrine. Our Father is simply not that way. 

 

Calvinistic predestination obviates our free will. Free will is necessary
for choice.  Without choice we cannot sin
for sin is a choice.  Perhaps Pharaoh was
a vessel to dishonor but he had a choice…a profound choice…at least ten of
them. 

 

It is like making a doctrine out of infinity.  It cannot be done for
the concept cannot be fully understood because we, as finite beings, cannot understand it in the
first place.  Predestination is like that
for we cannot understand how someone can both be predestined and have free will
at the same time. 

 

Blessings,

 

Justin



 

Hi Justin,

 

Actually, predestination and free will are easily reconciled when understood from a Biblical aspect rather than a Calvinistic aspect. My theology reconciles them nicely.


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And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe;

Justin Martyr

http://butch5.blogspot.com/

#22
Justin Mangonel

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Dear B,

 

Please share with us how you reconcil the two...I think it would be good for the discussion.

 

Blessings,

 

Justin


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#23
meshak

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whatever! haha!

Whatever?  is that how you serve Jesus?  whatever?


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#24
ScottAU

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#25
Butch5

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Dear B,

 

Please share with us how you reconcil the two...I think it would be good for the discussion.

 

Blessings,

 

Justin

HI Justin,

 

It would be a rather lengthy discussion but I'd be happy to explain. Much of what I believe come from the early writings of the Church and is likely to be different than what many believe today. First I'd like to say that I believe the modern teaching of Predestination is not what the Scriptures actually teach. The word Predestination simply means to predetermine or to determine before hand. In the Scriptures predestination is always referred to the Jews. It's not saying that God chose individuals to salvation before the foundation of the world as is often taught. I know many will balk at this but the Scriptures, when understood in context support this claim. I think the problem comes from people equating predestination with salvation which appears to negate free will. However, the Jews were predestined to adoption yet not all Jews were or will be saved. It would be through the Jews that the Gentiles would later partake of the promises made to Abraham. I'm sure we will need to look at some passages of Scripture but this is basically how I understand it.


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And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe;

Justin Martyr

http://butch5.blogspot.com/

#26
Justin Mangonel

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Dear B,

 

I think you have something there and it sounds right to me.  Obviously there are problems when people apply predestination to individuals but if you apply it to groups like you said it seems to harmonize. What scritpures do you site to support this view?  How do you interpret Ephesians 1:5, 11 and Romans 8:29.

 

Blessings,

 

Justin



Dear S,

 

Great video...makes good points.  Very inventive way to get the message across.

 

Blessings,

 

Justin


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#27
dragonfly

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Hi Butch5,

 

I'm not a Calvinist anymore. I find that none of the 5 points can be shown from Scripture, they are simply inferred from passage that are out of context.

 

That's a powerful testimony you have.  It is welcome!


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     Head of Thy Church triumphant

       Thou dost conduct Thy people through torrents of temptation,
         Nor will we fear, while Thou art near, the fire of tribulation.
            The world with sin and Satan in vain our march opposes.

Through Thee we shall break through them all, and sing the song of Moses.

                                              Tune: Lostwithiel

      Joshua 10_13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until

             the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies.

                                 http://olivetree.com...ible_search.php


#28
Butch5

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Dear B,

 

I think you have something there and it sounds right to me.  Obviously there are problems when people apply predestination to individuals but if you apply it to groups like you said it seems to harmonize. What scritpures do you site to support this view?  How do you interpret Ephesians 1:5, 11 and Romans 8:29.

 

Blessings,

 

Justin



Dear S,

 

Great video...makes good points.  Very inventive way to get the message across.

 

Blessings,

 

Justin

Hi Justin,

 

Here is my understanding of Ephesians 1:3-12.  I can supply more in depth study materials on this view if anyone is interested.

Here is Romans 8:28-3


 

Romans 8:28-30

 

Notice all of the verbs are past tense, this whole sequence is a completed act of God. It has already been accomplished; the word glorified is not speaking of a future glorification that is certain. It is speaking of a past glorification that is already complete. Verses 29 and 30, are the evidence to prove verse 28. Paul is telling the persecuted Christians at Rome, that God will work everything for their good. He tells them to look to the past at what God has already done as proof that He will work all things for good on their behalf. Paul says, for those He (God) foreknew He predestined. The Greek word for foreknew is "Proginosko", Pro, meaning before and Ginosko, meaning know. So, who are these people that God knew before? There are actually two questions that need to be addressed here, one, who are these people, and the other is, God knew them before what or when? Let's deal with the second question first as it will bear on the first, before what or when? Paul says those God knew before. He gives us no descriptive terms; therefore we can only conclude that Paul is referring to his present time. So
Paul is basically saying those God knew before right now (the present in Paul's day). Those God knew before the time that Paul was writing his epistle to the Romans. Many will say that this is a reference to a time before the foundation of the world, however there is absolutely nothing in the context of this passage that warrants that interpretation, or even hints at it. So, now that we have established the what and when, let's deal with the other question. Who were these people that God knew before Paul was writing his letter to the Romans? We know from the previous verse that they loved God, so, these would be people such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc. They all loved God. Now, let's apply this to the Scripture verses. Paul says in verse 29, those God foreknew, He predestined, or predetermined, to be conformed to the image of His Son. These same people God called. The Greek word translated called is also translated 'to invite'. So, who did God call? The called are men such as Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, men who God called out for a purpose.

Paul says that God will work all things together for good for those who love Him. To prove this point to the Christians
at Rome, Paul makes another statement, He says,

Romans 8:29-30 ( KJV ) 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate
to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn
among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called:
and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also
glorified.

God has done all of these things for Abraham, Issac, Jacob, David, etc. He has
called, justified, and glorified, them. That is why all of the verbs are in the
past tense. God has already done them. Paul is saying to the Christians at Rome,
look, God had done this for them; He will do it for you also.
 

He goes on in chapter 9 to further explain the calling of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.



 

 



 

 



 


Edited by Butch5, 01 April 2013 - 11:38 AM.

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And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe;

Justin Martyr

http://butch5.blogspot.com/

#29
Arnie Manitoba

Arnie Manitoba

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I think it is obvious. I think the most disgusting thing about Calvinism is the idea that God chooses who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. Calvinists will say that people send themselves to hell by rejecting Jesus Christ, yet they also say that God has predestined them not to believe. I find this to be a disgusting heresy. 

Jesus chose the 12 apostles

Jesus chose the betrayer apostle judas

Jesus chose Paul as apostle to the gentiles

God chose Israel as the nation to bring salvation

 

I am not a Calvinist but parts of the bible show that there is an element of pre-destiny involved for Christians .... or at the very least God knows in advance who will be saved and who will not

 

God even tells in advance that some people will end up in hell.

 

This whole subject can be looked at from several points of view and we simply do not have a definitive answer at this time ..... so if there is some confusion we should not be blaming each other ..... right ??


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#30
dragonfly

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Hi Butch5,

 

I hope you don't mind my dumping my objections to your thesis, right here, with very little ado.  Your study is well thought out, and I really appreciated the OT scriptures about 'beloved'.  I was going along with your thinking for quite a bit, although I had reservations, and then when you said Israel had already received their inheritance, it began to drift apart, in my view, because of Romans 9:4 .... the adoption ... which, yes, only Israelites had received at first, but which is of a completely different order than the arrangement by which God ruled over them through His laws.  (At that time, all the patriarchs, including Moses, were never more than servants.)  And, because of Hebrews 11:39, 40, (and, Hebrews 9:15, and Romans 4:16).  

 

I can see how the word 'foreknow' could be linked to Israel exclusively in certain contexts, but in Ephesians 1, there is no reason to suppose Paul is excluding all other Gentile saints in existence (by then) from his exposition of of their status as 'accepted in the Beloved'.  It's true that Paul addresses them specifically, to make mention of their faith, so that he can go on to explain what he'd been praying for them, but in v 14 he refers to 'our inheritance', which, clearly, includes the Ephesians.  And by Ephesians 2:12, it's clear he's including them in 'the commonwealth of Israel', now.  The inheritance to which Paul was alluding, is the eternal inheritance, which is what was promised to 'Israel'.

 

I'm not a reader of the early church fathers, and they seem to have a chequered reputation these days, so I would say - in the light of Romans 4 and Genesis 3, that while Israelites might have got used to being God's peculiar people, God had previously announced His intention to send the Saviour, first to Adam and Eve.  Adam overlapped with Methuselah for over three hundred years, and Noah was alive until Abraham was born, so the idea that the only people on earth who knew what God was saying to mankind, were the Jews (latterly) is a fable, (or a modern myth; and you have to contend with Job's account, who obviously knew a thing or two about God, and prophesied freely in certain speeches).  Abraham was never 'Israel' by name, nor was he ever 'Jewish' by name (although he kept all God's commandments, laws and statutes).  Paul says 'the gospel' was preached to him Gal 3:8, and then he uses the word 'we' - clearly to include Jews and Gentiles together under the blessing of Abraham:

 

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

 

 

Can I just check... you aren't saying that only Jews are 'accepted in the Beloved', are you?  Are you???


Edited by dragonfly, 01 April 2013 - 02:05 PM.

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     Head of Thy Church triumphant

       Thou dost conduct Thy people through torrents of temptation,
         Nor will we fear, while Thou art near, the fire of tribulation.
            The world with sin and Satan in vain our march opposes.

Through Thee we shall break through them all, and sing the song of Moses.

                                              Tune: Lostwithiel

      Joshua 10_13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until

             the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies.

                                 http://olivetree.com...ible_search.php





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