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How To Get To Heaven When You Die

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#31
ATP

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Oh, let's see then. Please show us where it speaks of the priesthood and let's find out who is "confused":

 

Luk 16:19  There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

 

Let's take a look at Luke 16:19 NIV “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.

1. Purple is a color which is used in Scripture for the following: priestly garments (Ex 39:2, 24, 29); royal apparel (Judges 8:26; Esther 8:15); and is synonymous with wealth in Rev 18:16.
2. Fine linen was used extensively in the priestly garments such as the ephod, robe, mitre, and bonnet. (Ex 39). Linen is used as a symbol of wealth in Rev 18:16.
3. The priesthood is equated to living in luxury and wealth..

The priesthood lived in luxury well beyond that of the average man. They supported their lavish lifestyles with a temple tax which every Jew was required to pay. Richard Horsley in his book “The Message and the Kingdom” describes what archeologists have discovered about the living conditions of the priesthood.
 
    “…impressive archeological remains of their Jerusalem residences show how elegant their life style had become. In spacious structures unhesitantly dubbed ‘mansions” by the archeologists who uncovered them in the 1970’s, we can get a glimpse of a lavish life in mosaic floored reception rooms and dining rooms with elaborate painted and carved stucco wall decorations and with a wealth of fine tableware, glassware, carved stone table tops, and other interior furnishings and elegant peristyles.”

The priests lived lavish lifestyles while the average Jewish peasant struggled to survive. The temple taxes combined with taxes imposed by Herod and Rome were literally threatening the existence of the Jewish people. The people of the land were carrying a burden they could scarcely bear or tolerate. Palestine had become a powder keg waiting to ignite.

 

Now let's take a look at some questions...

1. If this story is not about the demise of the priesthood, then why does verse 19 use priestly garments to describe the rich man with purple clothing and fine linen? (Luke 16:19 NIV “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.)

2. Why does Jesus use Hades as hellfire in only this passage and the rest of the Bible uses Gehenna and the Lake of Fire as hellfire? Is it possible that He could be using Hades as figurative picture language here? (Luke 16:23 NIV In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.)

3. If the rich man died his spirit would have to be in hell. Spirit is translated breath and wind in Hebrew and Greek. So how would breath and wind obtain a finger and a tongue? (Luke 16:24 NIV So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’)

4. We see here in Luke 16:24-31 NIV that the rich man is having a personal conversation in hell. Even though he died he is aware of things, but Eccl 9:5 and Eccl 9:10 specifically states that the dead know nothing and they can neither plan or have knowledge or wisdom. (Eccl 9:5 NIV For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.) (Eccl 9:10 NIV Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.)
 

- ATP


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#32
ewq1938

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Let's take a look at Luke 16:19 NIV “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.

1. Purple is a color which is used in Scripture for the following: priestly garments (Ex 39:2, 24, 29); royal apparel (Judges 8:26; Esther 8:15); and is synonymous with wealth in Rev 18:16.
2. Fine linen was used extensively in the priestly garments such as the ephod, robe, mitre, and bonnet. (Ex 39). Linen is used as a symbol of wealth in Rev 18:16.
3. The priesthood is equated to living in luxury and wealth..

The priesthood lived in luxury well beyond that of the average man. They supported their lavish lifestyles with a temple tax which every Jew was required to pay. Richard Horsley in his book “The Message and the Kingdom” describes what archeologists have discovered about the living conditions of the priesthood.
 
    “…impressive archeological remains of their Jerusalem residences show how elegant their life style had become. In spacious structures unhesitantly dubbed ‘mansions” by the archeologists who uncovered them in the 1970’s, we can get a glimpse of a lavish life in mosaic floored reception rooms and dining rooms with elaborate painted and carved stucco wall decorations and with a wealth of fine tableware, glassware, carved stone table tops, and other interior furnishings and elegant peristyles.”

The priests lived lavish lifestyles while the average Jewish peasant struggled to survive. The temple taxes combined with taxes imposed by Herod and Rome were literally threatening the existence of the Jewish people. The people of the land were carrying a burden they could scarcely bear or tolerate. Palestine had become a powder keg waiting to ignite.

 

Now let's take a look at some questions...

1. If this story is not about the demise of the priesthood, then why does verse 19 use priestly garments to describe the rich man with purple clothing and fine linen? (Luke 16:19 NIV “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.)

2. Why does Jesus use Hades as hellfire in only this passage and the rest of the Bible uses Gehenna and the Lake of Fire as hellfire? Is it possible that He could be using Hades as figurative picture language here? (Luke 16:23 NIV In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.)

3. If the rich man died his spirit would have to be in hell. Spirit is translated breath and wind in Hebrew and Greek. So how would breath and wind obtain a finger and a tongue? (Luke 16:24 NIV So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’)

4. We see here in Luke 16:24-31 NIV that the rich man is having a personal conversation in hell. Even though he died he is aware of things, but Eccl 9:5 and Eccl 9:10 specifically states that the dead know nothing and they can neither plan or have knowledge or wisdom. (Eccl 9:5 NIV For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.) (Eccl 9:10 NIV Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.)
 

- ATP

 

 

You are adding to the story that which the story does not speak about. It isn't about the priesthood at all but one man who happened to be a Priest. He doesn't represent all priests nor does the beggar represent all beggars. This is solely about these two men and shows a good man who is poor can go to heaven while a bad man who is rich can go to hell. Adding anything else to this is Eisegesis.


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Jesus is God because his Father, God, addressed him as "O God"- Hebrews 1:8 , Psalms 45:6
Jesus is God because he, himself, says he is God: "I will be his God"- Revelation 21:7
Jesus is God because the bible says he is God: "The mighty God" - Isaiah 9:6
Jesus is God because his disciples knew he was God:
                               "my Lord and my God" - John 20:28
                               "our God and Savior Jesus Christ" - 2 Peter 1:1
                               "the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" - Titus 2:13
Jesus is God because the OT says Israel's Rock was God & Christ was that same Rock: Psalms 78:35,  1 Corinthians 10:4


#33
ATP

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You are adding to the story that which the story does not speak about. It isn't about the priesthood at all but one man who happened to be a Priest. He doesn't represent all priests nor does the beggar represent all beggars. This is solely about these two men and shows a good man who is poor can go to heaven while a bad man who is rich can go to hell. Adding anything else to this is Eisegesis.

 

It's actually not about heaven and hell at all. You're missing the whole point of the parable.


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#34
The Barrd

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If the story of the rich man and Lazarus is literally true, then it appears that the "good" go to be in "Abraham's bosom"...evidently, just being poor and needy qualifies one to go there, because the story really doesn't tell us anything about Lazarus' moral life.  All we know of him is that he was "laid at his gate"...that is the rich man's gate...that he was "full of sores"...that detail bothers me for some reason, and that he was "desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table"...although why he insisted that this particular rich man should feed him is not clear...and that the dogs came and licked his sores.  

Anyhow, now he is in "Abraham's bosom"...if we're going to take this story literally, then Abraham is literally cradling the poor Lazarus in his arms the same way a parent cradles a little child.  I'm fairly sure that, by this time, more than one righteous person had passed...where are the others?  Could Abraham be cradling all of them?  And why Abraham, anyway, and not, say Moses?  Or Elijah?  Or David?  Or any number of other likely Biblical heroes?

 

Anyhow, the rich man also dies...and, like all selfish rich men, he lands in hell.  

Now, evidently, people in hell can see people in Abraham's bosom...which would seem to be a problem.  Can people in heaven see people in hell, then?  How sad for those whose loved ones didn't make the cut!  Oh...suppose one of your precious children were in hell, being "in torments" before your eyes!  But I digress...

The rich man sees Lazarus in Abraham's bosom...and with typical rich man arrogance, he wants this man, whom he allowed to suffer at his gate without lifting a finger to offer him any help, to run and get him some water.  He wasn't asking for much...just a fingertip to cool his burning tongue.  But he wanted Lazarus to come into hell with him, and minister to him...and he didn't see a problem with that at all.  Of course, it's a bit too late for him to humble himself at this point...but still...the nerve of this guy is appalling.  

Abraham explains that the rich man had good things during his lifetime, but Lazarus had received evil things...as if this was the criteria for one's being given a place in Abraham's bosom, while the other was sent to hell. (Gosh, if being poor is all it takes, I guess I don't need to worry, then...I'm in! :rolleyes:)

And he further explains that there is a great gulf fixed between them...I wonder how the rich man missed this detail?...and that neither side could cross this gulf to reach the other side.  In other words, Lazarus couldn't go to the rich man, even if he wanted to.  Interestingly, we are never let in on Lazarus' opinion of all of this.  Which is probably just as well...

 

So now, our stubborn rich man shows the first glimmer of compassion we've seen so far in this parable.  He wants Abraham to send Lazarus to his brothers to warn them of their impending doom.  

Again, we are not told if Lazarus would be willing to do this little chore...however, evidently the possibility did exist, because Abraham does not say that there is any impediment to one coming back in order to perform this service....rather he points out that the rich man's brothers have Moses and the prophets...they need to hear them.  Which seems rather useless, given that the rich man also would have had access to these writings, and they didn't seem to help him very much...but again, I digress.

The rich man pleads that, if one came back from the dead, they would repent...which seems a reasonable deduction.  I mean, if they were to see Lazarus, one would think that they'd be impressed enough to at least give a listen to what he had to say...

However, Abraham denies this possibility, insisting that if they didn't hear Moses and the prophets, they wouldn't listen to a risen Lazarus either.

Of course, we are to understand that Abraham is projecting forward to a time when Jesus will rise from the dead...and still be rejected by the Jews, who are still to this day looking for a human deliverer in the style of Joshua and the judges.

 

With all due respect, this story has to be a parable.

Now, I'm not involved in arguing either for or against hell...but if you take away this parable, it does leave a bit of a gap...

Just sayin'


Edited by The Barrd, 30 July 2015 - 01:30 PM.

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"Lord, I have no gift to bring

Only this little song I sing."

"My child," gently smiled the Lord,

"Go, and sing it to the world."

                                       The Barrd


#35
The Barrd

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It's actually not about heaven and hell at all. You're missing the whole point of the parable.

Isn't the point of the parable that the Jews would not listen, even after Jesus rose from the dead?

Or am I missing it as well?


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"Lord, I have no gift to bring

Only this little song I sing."

"My child," gently smiled the Lord,

"Go, and sing it to the world."

                                       The Barrd


#36
ewq1938

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It's actually not about heaven and hell at all. You're missing the whole point of the parable.

 

 

Actually it's you that missed the whole point of the story (not a parable because it's about historical events) since you can't seem to see the whole thing is about where they go when they die. Literally a majority of the verses of the story deal strictly with where they ended up especially the rich man.

 

BTW, the rich man might have been a priest but could have been a nobleman or someone rich even a King.

 

Barnes:

 

Clothed in purple - A purple robe or garment. This color was expensive as well as splendid, and was chiefly worn by princes, nobles, and those who were very wealthy. Compare Mat_27:28. See the notes at Isa_1:18.
Fine linen - This linen was chiefly produced of the flax that grew on the banks of the Nile, in Egypt, Pro_7:16; Eze_27:7. It was especially soft and white, and was, therefore, much sought as an article of luxury, and was so expensive that it could be worn only by princes, by priests, or by those who were very rich, Gen_41:42; 1Ch_15:27; Exo_28:5.

 

 

More evidence this isn't about the priesthood nor it's supposed demise.


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Jesus is God because his Father, God, addressed him as "O God"- Hebrews 1:8 , Psalms 45:6
Jesus is God because he, himself, says he is God: "I will be his God"- Revelation 21:7
Jesus is God because the bible says he is God: "The mighty God" - Isaiah 9:6
Jesus is God because his disciples knew he was God:
                               "my Lord and my God" - John 20:28
                               "our God and Savior Jesus Christ" - 2 Peter 1:1
                               "the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" - Titus 2:13
Jesus is God because the OT says Israel's Rock was God & Christ was that same Rock: Psalms 78:35,  1 Corinthians 10:4


#37
ewq1938

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If the story of the rich man and Lazarus is literally true, then it appears that the "good" go to be in "Abraham's bosom"...evidently, just being poor and needy qualifies one to go there, because the story really doesn't tell us anything about Lazarus' moral life.

 

 

We know from other scriptures that it takes belief and love in God to make it there so Lazarus was a good man. Back in those days it was believed rich people went to heaven because they were rich and had better lives so people assumed God blessed them and in reverse the poor and sick were hated by God and were going to hell. It ties into what Christ said about a rich man going to heaven, that is was difficult and the disciples were shocked because they also believed the rich went to heaven but Christ corrected that belief:

 

Mar 10:25  It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Mar 10:26  And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?


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Jesus is God because his Father, God, addressed him as "O God"- Hebrews 1:8 , Psalms 45:6
Jesus is God because he, himself, says he is God: "I will be his God"- Revelation 21:7
Jesus is God because the bible says he is God: "The mighty God" - Isaiah 9:6
Jesus is God because his disciples knew he was God:
                               "my Lord and my God" - John 20:28
                               "our God and Savior Jesus Christ" - 2 Peter 1:1
                               "the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" - Titus 2:13
Jesus is God because the OT says Israel's Rock was God & Christ was that same Rock: Psalms 78:35,  1 Corinthians 10:4


#38
ewq1938

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Isn't the point of the parable that the Jews would not listen, even after Jesus rose from the dead?

Or am I missing it as well?

 

 

That's not the main lesson of the story but it was true.


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Jesus is God because his Father, God, addressed him as "O God"- Hebrews 1:8 , Psalms 45:6
Jesus is God because he, himself, says he is God: "I will be his God"- Revelation 21:7
Jesus is God because the bible says he is God: "The mighty God" - Isaiah 9:6
Jesus is God because his disciples knew he was God:
                               "my Lord and my God" - John 20:28
                               "our God and Savior Jesus Christ" - 2 Peter 1:1
                               "the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" - Titus 2:13
Jesus is God because the OT says Israel's Rock was God & Christ was that same Rock: Psalms 78:35,  1 Corinthians 10:4


#39
ATP

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Actually it's you that missed the whole point of the story (not a parable because it's about historical events) since you can't seem to see the whole thing is about where they go when they die. Literally a majority of the verses of the story deal strictly with where they ended up especially the rich man.

 

BTW, the rich man might have been a priest but could have been a nobleman or someone rich even a King.

 

Barnes:

 

Clothed in purple - A purple robe or garment. This color was expensive as well as splendid, and was chiefly worn by princes, nobles, and those who were very wealthy. Compare Mat_27:28. See the notes at Isa_1:18.
Fine linen - This linen was chiefly produced of the flax that grew on the banks of the Nile, in Egypt, Pro_7:16; Eze_27:7. It was especially soft and white, and was, therefore, much sought as an article of luxury, and was so expensive that it could be worn only by princes, by priests, or by those who were very rich, Gen_41:42; 1Ch_15:27; Exo_28:5.

 

 

More evidence this isn't about the priesthood nor it's supposed demise.

 

You need to answer these questions in order to support your belief.......

 

1. Why does Jesus use Hades as hellfire in only this passage and the rest of the Bible uses Gehenna and the Lake of Fire as hellfire? Is it possible that He could be using Hades as figurative picture language here? (Luke 16:23 NIV In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.)

2. If the rich man died his spirit would have to be in hell. Spirit is translated breath and wind in Hebrew and Greek. So how would breath and wind obtain a finger and a tongue? (Luke 16:24 NIV So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’)

3. We see here in Luke 16:24-31 NIV that the rich man is having a personal conversation in hell. Even though he died he is aware of things, but Eccl 9:5 and Eccl 9:10 specifically states that the dead know nothing and they can neither plan or have knowledge or wisdom. (Eccl 9:5 NIV For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.) (Eccl 9:10 NIV Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.)
 

The point of the entire parable is at the end and deals with repentance and the resurrection of Christ...........

Acts 23:8 NIV (The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees believe all these things.)

Luke 16:19-31 NIV 29“ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets (their writings); let them listen to them.’ 30“ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone (Jesus Christ) rises from the dead.’ ”


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#40
The Barrd

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That's not the main lesson of the story but it was true.

Evidently, you did not read my post above.  I'm fairly sure this story had to be a parable, for the reasons given in that post.

This has to be a parable, otherwise heaven is not going to be the blessed bliss we have been taught that it is.  This version of paradise sounds pretty disappointing.


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"Lord, I have no gift to bring

Only this little song I sing."

"My child," gently smiled the Lord,

"Go, and sing it to the world."

                                       The Barrd


#41
ewq1938

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You need to answer these questions in order to support your belief.......

 

1. Why does Jesus use Hades as hellfire in only this passage and the rest of the Bible uses Gehenna and the Lake of Fire as hellfire? Is it possible that He could be using Hades as figurative picture language here? (Luke 16:23 NIV In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.)
 

 

Obviously there is tormenting fire in Hades. The lake of fire destroys both body and soul Mat_10:28 but Hades does not.

 

 

2. If the rich man died his spirit would have to be in hell.

 

 

He was in hell/hades.


 

3. We see here in Luke 16:24-31 NIV that the rich man is having a personal conversation in hell. Even though he died he is aware of things, but Eccl 9:5 and Eccl 9:10 specifically states that the dead know nothing and they can neither plan or have knowledge or wisdom.

 

 

Eccl 9:10 addresses the dead from human perspective, the dead body. The dead in the spiritual world are fully alive and awake. The first death is only death of the human body, not death of spirit or soul.

 

 

 

 

The point of the entire parable is at the end and deals with repentance and the resurrection of Christ...........

 

No, the end is not the "entire parable" nor is it directly about repentance and the resurrection of Christ. It is about what happens to people when they die. There are two places and the dead end up in one of those two.

 


 

Luke 16:19-31 NIV 29“ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets (their writings); let them listen to them.’ 30“ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone (Jesus Christ) rises from the dead.’ ”

 

 

 

It isn't specifically talking about Christ especially since it says people won't believe but many did believe Christ rose from the dead. The context is strictly about the rich man and his family.

 

Luk 16:28  For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29  Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30  And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31  And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though (you) rose from the dead.


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Jesus is God because his Father, God, addressed him as "O God"- Hebrews 1:8 , Psalms 45:6
Jesus is God because he, himself, says he is God: "I will be his God"- Revelation 21:7
Jesus is God because the bible says he is God: "The mighty God" - Isaiah 9:6
Jesus is God because his disciples knew he was God:
                               "my Lord and my God" - John 20:28
                               "our God and Savior Jesus Christ" - 2 Peter 1:1
                               "the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" - Titus 2:13
Jesus is God because the OT says Israel's Rock was God & Christ was that same Rock: Psalms 78:35,  1 Corinthians 10:4


#42
ewq1938

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Evidently, you did not read my post above.  I'm fairly sure this story had to be a parable, for the reasons given in that post.

This has to be a parable, otherwise heaven is not going to be the blessed bliss we have been taught that it is.  This version of paradise sounds pretty disappointing.

 

 

Heaven isn't the "paradise" we look forward to as far as the eternity. The New Earth will be where we live forever, not heaven. Rev 21-22

 

Did you know there will be a war in heaven? Of course heaven isn't meant to be a paradise. It's a temporary home for God, and angels and the saved dead.


Edited by ewq1938, 30 July 2015 - 01:59 PM.

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Jesus is God because his Father, God, addressed him as "O God"- Hebrews 1:8 , Psalms 45:6
Jesus is God because he, himself, says he is God: "I will be his God"- Revelation 21:7
Jesus is God because the bible says he is God: "The mighty God" - Isaiah 9:6
Jesus is God because his disciples knew he was God:
                               "my Lord and my God" - John 20:28
                               "our God and Savior Jesus Christ" - 2 Peter 1:1
                               "the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" - Titus 2:13
Jesus is God because the OT says Israel's Rock was God & Christ was that same Rock: Psalms 78:35,  1 Corinthians 10:4


#43
ATP

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Obviously there is tormenting fire in Hades. The lake of fire destroys both body and soul Mat_10:28 but Hades does not.

 

 

 

He was in hell/hades.

 

 

Eccl 9:10 addresses the dead from human perspective, the dead body. The dead in the spiritual world are fully alive and awake. The first death is only death of the human body, not death of spirit or soul.

 

 

 

 

No, the end is not the "entire parable" nor is it directly about repentance and the resurrection of Christ. It is about what happens to people when they die. There are two places and the dead end up in one of those two.

 

 

 

 

It isn't specifically talking about Christ especially since it says people won't believe but many did believe Christ rose from the dead. The context is strictly about the rich man and his family.

 

Luk 16:28  For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29  Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30  And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31  And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though (you) rose from the dead.

 

1. Hades is translated "the grave". Do you like to study Hebrew and Greek?

2. But how does a spirit obtain a finger and a tongue?

3. Eccl 9:10 - But that's just your opinion

4. Yes there are two places we will go, the New Earth or the Lake of Fire. Hades is not the Lake of Fire. And it is about the resurrection. Re-read Luke 16:29-31 NIV.

5. Matt 22:14.


Edited by ATP, 30 July 2015 - 02:33 PM.

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#44
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Heaven isn't the "paradise" we look forward to as far as the eternity. The New Earth will be where we live forever, not heaven. Rev 21-22

 

Did you know there will be a war in heaven? Of course heaven isn't meant to be a paradise. It's a temporary home for God, and angels and the saved dead.

 

Scripture does not teach of a temporary dwelling place after death.


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#45
ewq1938

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1. Hades is translated "the grave".

 

I know. That's because that's where the dead go to wait for judgment day.

 

 

Do you like to study Hebrew and Greek?

 

 

Yes.

 

 

2. But how does a spirit obtain a finger and a tongue?

 

 

What does the rich man know? A spirit can have the appearance of a body without literally having a body as we see in Mat_3:16

 

 

4. Yes there are two places we will go, the New Earth or the Lake of Fire.

 

 

On judgment day. Before that people go to heaven or Hades.

 

 

 

Hades is not the Lake of Fire.

 

 

Who would think Hades is the lake of fire?

 

 

And it is about the resurrection. Re-read Luke 16:29-31 NIV.

 

 

It addresses only the resurrection of the rich man which was denied.

 

 

 

5. Matt 22:14.

 

 

 

?


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Jesus is God because his Father, God, addressed him as "O God"- Hebrews 1:8 , Psalms 45:6
Jesus is God because he, himself, says he is God: "I will be his God"- Revelation 21:7
Jesus is God because the bible says he is God: "The mighty God" - Isaiah 9:6
Jesus is God because his disciples knew he was God:
                               "my Lord and my God" - John 20:28
                               "our God and Savior Jesus Christ" - 2 Peter 1:1
                               "the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" - Titus 2:13
Jesus is God because the OT says Israel's Rock was God & Christ was that same Rock: Psalms 78:35,  1 Corinthians 10:4


#46
The Barrd

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Heaven isn't the "paradise" we look forward to as far as the eternity. The New Earth will be where we live forever, not heaven. Rev 21-22

 

Did you know there will be a war in heaven? Of course heaven isn't meant to be a paradise. It's a temporary home for God, and angels and the saved dead.

So, you are a Jehovah's Witness?


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"Lord, I have no gift to bring

Only this little song I sing."

"My child," gently smiled the Lord,

"Go, and sing it to the world."

                                       The Barrd


#47
ewq1938

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Scripture does not teach of a temporary dwelling place after death.

 

 

Yes it does. Both heaven and Hades are temporary places for the dead to dwell. At the second coming Christ brings the dead saints in heaven with him to the earth and on judgement day the dead are brought out of Hades to be judged and are sent to the lake of fire. You should already know this. I don't understand how you couldn't unless you are new to the bible.


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Jesus is God because his Father, God, addressed him as "O God"- Hebrews 1:8 , Psalms 45:6
Jesus is God because he, himself, says he is God: "I will be his God"- Revelation 21:7
Jesus is God because the bible says he is God: "The mighty God" - Isaiah 9:6
Jesus is God because his disciples knew he was God:
                               "my Lord and my God" - John 20:28
                               "our God and Savior Jesus Christ" - 2 Peter 1:1
                               "the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" - Titus 2:13
Jesus is God because the OT says Israel's Rock was God & Christ was that same Rock: Psalms 78:35,  1 Corinthians 10:4


#48
The Barrd

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Okay...

Just for my own curiosity, here...looking for a show of hands.

Who here believes that Jesus is, literally, God in the flesh?  And who thinks He might be "a God"...but not literally God the Father.

 

I think it makes a HUGE difference as to what we believe about heaven and hell...


Edited by The Barrd, 30 July 2015 - 02:53 PM.

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"Lord, I have no gift to bring

Only this little song I sing."

"My child," gently smiled the Lord,

"Go, and sing it to the world."

                                       The Barrd


#49
ewq1938

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So, you are a Jehovah's Witness?

 

 

No, I'm a non-denominational Christian.


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Jesus is God because his Father, God, addressed him as "O God"- Hebrews 1:8 , Psalms 45:6
Jesus is God because he, himself, says he is God: "I will be his God"- Revelation 21:7
Jesus is God because the bible says he is God: "The mighty God" - Isaiah 9:6
Jesus is God because his disciples knew he was God:
                               "my Lord and my God" - John 20:28
                               "our God and Savior Jesus Christ" - 2 Peter 1:1
                               "the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" - Titus 2:13
Jesus is God because the OT says Israel's Rock was God & Christ was that same Rock: Psalms 78:35,  1 Corinthians 10:4


#50
ATP

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I know. That's because that's where the dead go to wait for judgment day.

 

Yes.

 

 

What does the rich man know? A spirit can have the appearance of a body without literally having a body as we see in Mat_3:16

 

 

Who would think Hades is the lake of fire?

 

1. Yes the grave is where the dead go, but they are not alive in the grave. That is silly. The dead are dead. So why did Jesus use Hades to describe a place where people burn?

 

2. Actually, God the Father does not obtain a body. God the Father is a spirit and only exists in the spirit realm. You're taking Matt 3:16 out of context. Nowhere in scripture does it speak of us having spirit bodies after death.

 

3. Who would think Hades is the lake of fire? You would because you believe Hades is a place where people burn. But in reality it is simply the grave where the dead sleep.


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#51
The Barrd

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No, I'm a non-denominational Christian.

 

I wondered.  I was pretty sure JWs don't believe in hell at all.

But they are huge advocates of the idea that heaven will be here on earth.

 

Would you mind terribly if I ask you why you believe this?


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"Lord, I have no gift to bring

Only this little song I sing."

"My child," gently smiled the Lord,

"Go, and sing it to the world."

                                       The Barrd


#52
ewq1938

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Okay...

Just for my own curiosity, here...looking for a show of hands.

Who here believes that Jesus is, literally, God in the flesh?  And who thinks He might be "a God"...but not literally God the Father.

 

I think it makes a HUGE difference as to what we believe about heaven and hell...

 

 

Jesus is literally God, so is the Father and the HS. One God made of three.


  • 0

Jesus is God because his Father, God, addressed him as "O God"- Hebrews 1:8 , Psalms 45:6
Jesus is God because he, himself, says he is God: "I will be his God"- Revelation 21:7
Jesus is God because the bible says he is God: "The mighty God" - Isaiah 9:6
Jesus is God because his disciples knew he was God:
                               "my Lord and my God" - John 20:28
                               "our God and Savior Jesus Christ" - 2 Peter 1:1
                               "the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" - Titus 2:13
Jesus is God because the OT says Israel's Rock was God & Christ was that same Rock: Psalms 78:35,  1 Corinthians 10:4


#53
The Barrd

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Jesus is literally God, so is the Father and the HS. One God made of three.

I never could see the difference between "Oneness" and "Trinity".

Maybe I just don't understand the doctrines.

It seems fairly obvious to me that Jesus is God Incarnate.  If there were any doubt at all...which I don't see how there could be...John certainly clarifies it for us:

 

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:2  The same was in the beginning with God.

Joh 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 1:4  In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Joh 1:5  And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.


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"Lord, I have no gift to bring

Only this little song I sing."

"My child," gently smiled the Lord,

"Go, and sing it to the world."

                                       The Barrd


#54
ATP

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Yes it does. Both heaven and Hades are temporary places for the dead to dwell. At the second coming Christ brings the dead saints in heaven with him to the earth and on judgement day the dead are brought out of Hades to be judged and are sent to the lake of fire. You s

 

Nope. When we die all people, believers and nonbelievers go to Hades to sleep and await the first resurrection and the great white throne.


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#55
The Barrd

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Nope. When we die all people, believers and nonbelievers go to Hades to sleep and await the first resurrection and the great white throne.

This is what I believe, as well.


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"Lord, I have no gift to bring

Only this little song I sing."

"My child," gently smiled the Lord,

"Go, and sing it to the world."

                                       The Barrd


#56
ewq1938

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1. Yes the grave is where the dead go, but they are not alive in the grave. That is silly. The dead are dead.

 

No the dead are alive in another sense. Rev 6:9, And the fact Moses and Elijah appeared and spoke to Jesus though they were "dead".

 

 

So why did Jesus use Hades to describe a place where people burn?

 

 

Because it's true?

 

 

2. Actually, God the Father does not obtain a body.

 

 

Yes he does. Moses saw his hand blocking his face and he saw the back of his body as he walked away. That proves he has a face, head, legs, hands etc etc....one of many passages describing God the Father's body.

 

 

 

God the Father is a spirit and only exists in the spirit realm.

 

 

That's incorrect. Only the Holy Spirit is a bodiless spirit. Neither Father nor son are bodiless spirits.

 

 

 

You're taking Matt 3:16 out of context. Nowhere in scripture does it speak of us having spirit bodies after death.

 

 

It's not being taken out of context and I said "appearance of a body" not a literal body.

 

 

3. Who would think Hades is the lake of fire? You would because you believe Hades is a place where people burn.

 

 

Wrong yet again. Hades is a different place than the lake of fire. Both having fire doesn't make them the same place I already explained the differences and won't repeat that again. Scroll back.

 

 

But in reality it is simply the grave where the dead sleep.

 

 

 

That's a false doctrine called soul sleep which is not scriptural.


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Jesus is God because his Father, God, addressed him as "O God"- Hebrews 1:8 , Psalms 45:6
Jesus is God because he, himself, says he is God: "I will be his God"- Revelation 21:7
Jesus is God because the bible says he is God: "The mighty God" - Isaiah 9:6
Jesus is God because his disciples knew he was God:
                               "my Lord and my God" - John 20:28
                               "our God and Savior Jesus Christ" - 2 Peter 1:1
                               "the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" - Titus 2:13
Jesus is God because the OT says Israel's Rock was God & Christ was that same Rock: Psalms 78:35,  1 Corinthians 10:4


#57
ewq1938

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I wondered.  I was pretty sure JWs don't believe in hell at all.

But they are huge advocates of the idea that heaven will be here on earth.

 

Would you mind terribly if I ask you why you believe this?

 

 

Heaven isn't on the Earth and never will be. It is always described as being above the Earth, also called the third heaven. The Earth is merely where eternity is spent according to Rev 21-22.


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Jesus is God because his Father, God, addressed him as "O God"- Hebrews 1:8 , Psalms 45:6
Jesus is God because he, himself, says he is God: "I will be his God"- Revelation 21:7
Jesus is God because the bible says he is God: "The mighty God" - Isaiah 9:6
Jesus is God because his disciples knew he was God:
                               "my Lord and my God" - John 20:28
                               "our God and Savior Jesus Christ" - 2 Peter 1:1
                               "the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" - Titus 2:13
Jesus is God because the OT says Israel's Rock was God & Christ was that same Rock: Psalms 78:35,  1 Corinthians 10:4


#58
ewq1938

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I never could see the difference between "Oneness" and "Trinity".

Maybe I just don't understand the doctrines.

It seems fairly obvious to me that Jesus is God Incarnate.  If there were any doubt at all...which I don't see how there could be...John certainly clarifies it for us:

 

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:2  The same was in the beginning with God.

Joh 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 1:4  In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Joh 1:5  And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

 

 

Oneness denies the divinity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit believing God the Father is the only one who is God. It's a false doctrine.


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Jesus is God because his Father, God, addressed him as "O God"- Hebrews 1:8 , Psalms 45:6
Jesus is God because he, himself, says he is God: "I will be his God"- Revelation 21:7
Jesus is God because the bible says he is God: "The mighty God" - Isaiah 9:6
Jesus is God because his disciples knew he was God:
                               "my Lord and my God" - John 20:28
                               "our God and Savior Jesus Christ" - 2 Peter 1:1
                               "the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" - Titus 2:13
Jesus is God because the OT says Israel's Rock was God & Christ was that same Rock: Psalms 78:35,  1 Corinthians 10:4


#59
ewq1938

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Nope. When we die all people, believers and nonbelievers go to Hades to sleep and await the first resurrection and the great white throne.

 

 

That isn't scriptural. The 5th seal proves the saved dead are in heaven not Hades. Paul also speaks a couple times about wanting to be dead to be with Christ. Obviously he doesn't believe believers go to Hades.


  • 0

Jesus is God because his Father, God, addressed him as "O God"- Hebrews 1:8 , Psalms 45:6
Jesus is God because he, himself, says he is God: "I will be his God"- Revelation 21:7
Jesus is God because the bible says he is God: "The mighty God" - Isaiah 9:6
Jesus is God because his disciples knew he was God:
                               "my Lord and my God" - John 20:28
                               "our God and Savior Jesus Christ" - 2 Peter 1:1
                               "the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" - Titus 2:13
Jesus is God because the OT says Israel's Rock was God & Christ was that same Rock: Psalms 78:35,  1 Corinthians 10:4


#60
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No the dead are alive in another sense. Rev 6:9, And the fact Moses and Elijah appeared and spoke to Jesus though they were "dead".

 

 

 

Because it's true?

 

 

 

Yes he does. Moses saw his hand blocking his face and he saw the back of his body as he walked away. That proves he has a face, head, legs, hands etc etc....one of many passages describing God the Father's body.

 

 

That's incorrect. Only the Holy Spirit is a bodiless spirit. Neither Father nor son are bodiless spirits.

 

 

 

 

It's not being taken out of context and I said "appearance of a body" not a literal body.

 

 

 

Wrong yet again. Hades is a different place than the lake of fire. Both having fire doesn't make them the same place I already explained the differences and won't repeat that again. Scroll back.

 

 

 

 

That's a false doctrine called soul sleep which is not scriptural.

 

Nowhere in scripture does it speak of having a spirit body, and you have yet to show me scripture to prove this. Either the breath of life is in us or it's not. This is not rocket science.


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