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Predestination, All Things are Determined by God, Even the Outcome of a Roll of a Dice

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#1
cga

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All things, whether good or evil, are determined by God to happen, hence,

I form the light and create darknessI bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7 [NIV])
The LORD kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up. (1 Samuel 2:6 [ESV])
For he wounds, but he also bandages; he strikes, but his hands also heal.  (Job 5:18 [NETBIBLE])
“‘See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand. (Deuteronomy 32:39 [ESV])

For just as a man moves his own arm by his own mere will, so does God move even the smallest speck of dust, even just one atom, by his own mere will, which is why even the outcome of the roll of a dice is determined by God,

We may throw the dice, but the LORD determines how they fall. (Proverbs 16:33 [NLT])

Hence why the apostles cast lots to choose who the twelfth apostle would be to replace Judas, knowing that nothing occurs by chance, but by what God determines to be,

Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles. (Acts 1:26 [NIV])

Even the rising of the entire sun happens because God moves the sun to rise,

that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. (Matthew 5:45 [NIV])

And so, absolutely nothing happens outside of what God has determined by his will. Even the formation of a baby in the womb is caused by the will of God,

For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. (Psalm 139:13 [NIV])

And God has even numbered the amount of hairs on your head, because just as God has caused the formation of a baby in the womb by his mere will, so in likewise manner has God caused the very hairs on your head to grow to thus know how many hairs you have,

Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. (Luke 12:7 [NIV])

As such, it is in God that all live, exist, and even move,

for “‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said, “‘For we are indeed his offspring.’ (Acts 17:28 [ESV])

Even every decision of man is determined by God, as he is the one that controls the hearts of men, whether he draws them forth towards him, or whether he pushes them away from him, hence,

So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen. (Romans 9:18 [NLT])
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. (John 6:44 [NIV])
The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will. (Proverbs 21:1 [ESV])
He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” (John 12:40 [ESV])

Even all who have disease are determined to be so by God,

Then the LORD said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD? (Exodus 4:11 [ESV])

Even sinners are determined by God to be sinners,

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. (Proverbs 16:4 [KJV])

As such, the purpose God has appointed sinners to exist is so that he may demonstrate his wrath and make known his power and judgments,

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (Romans 9:22 [ESV])

And just as God hardens the hearts of man, so did he also harden the heart of Pharaoh, so that because of Pharaoh's refusal to let the sons of Israel go, God may then demonstrate his power by bringing forth powerful plagues against Egypt,

"But I will harden Pharaoh's heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 7:3 [NASB])
For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (Romans 9:17 [NIV])

In which case God also hardens the hearts of man to this day, so that because of all those whom he has hardened on the earth, he may one day demonstrate his great power upon the entire earth by bringing forth great and powerful judgments, to even cause the entire earth to quake at his presence,

Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the LORD Almighty, in the day of his burning anger. (Isaiah 13:13 [NIV])
Every valley shall be raised up, every mountain and hill made low; the rough ground shall become level, the rugged places a plain. And the glory of the LORD will be revealed, and all people will see it together. For the mouth of the LORD has spoken." (Isaiah 40:4-5 [NIV])

Along with many other judgments to demonstrate his great power, which will result in the reduction of all the wicked to mere ashes,

Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act," says the LORD Almighty. (Malachi 4:3 [NIV])

And on the other hand, he has also appointed sinners to exist so that he may demonstrate his mercy,

For God has bound up all in disobedience, that He may show mercy to all. (Romans 11:32 [BLB])
And what if he is willing to make known the wealth of his glory on the objects of mercy that he has prepared beforehand for glory-- (Romans 9:23 [NETBIBLE])
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (Romans 9:15 [NIV])
So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen. (Romans 9:18 [NLT])

And also demonstrate his love,

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8 [NIV])

Even those who God has appointed to be blind, or mute, or deaf, are appointed to be so that God may demonstrate his power to heal,

His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. (John 9:2-3 [NIV])

And so, whoever God demonstrates his mercy and love to is whoever he chooses to be his,

Who accuses against the chosen of God? God is the one justifying. (Romans 8:33 [ABP])
Paul, a bondman of God, and apostle of Jesus Christ, for belief of
the chosen of God, and full knowledge of truth, of the one according to piety; (Titus 1:1 [ABP])
But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:13 [ESV])

And all who are chosen by God have also been predestined to be his from before the foundation of the world,

even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love (Ephesians 1:4 [ESV])
 
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Romans 8:30 [NIV])
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. (Romans 8:29 [NIV])

And just as God has chosen who will be his, he has also chosen who will not be his, which is why it is not whether a man runs or not that determines if he will be saved, but it is whomever God chooses to show mercy to,

So then it is not of the one wanting, nor of the one running, but of the showing mercy of God. (Romans 9:16 [ABP])

And so, whoever comes to repentance does so because of the kindness of God, since God is the one who draws men to him,

Or do you disregard the riches of His kindness, tolerance, and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you to repentance? (Romans 2:4 [BSB])

This is also why the kingdom given to the chosen, or even the lake of fire where the wicked are thrown into, are all prepared by God, because what God has brought forth into existence is also staged and prepared for future times he has appointed,

And because God determines everything to be is why God has also staged and prepared what will come to be,

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. (Matthew 25:34 [NIV])
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (Matthew 25:41 [NIV])
but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant.These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared." (Mark 10:40 [NIV])
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#2
lforrest

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I'm glad to see at least someone believes in the sovereignty of God these days.

How do you answer the argument by those who believe God unjust for condemning people when he is the one whom predestined them for destruction?
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#3
cga

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I'm glad to see at least someone believes in the sovereignty of God these days.

How do you answer the argument by those who believe God unjust for condemning people when he is the one whom predestined them for destruction?


This scripture is the answer,

One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?" But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? (Romans 9:19 [NIV])

 

And so, because God is indeed just, and because he wants to demonstrate his great power, he has also appointed the swift destruction of those whom he appointed to be wicked,

 

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (Romans 9:22 [ESV])

 

So, there is no injustice with God for what he has appointed to be by his own authority as God, for the end result of what he has appointed to be will be just.


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#4
kerwin

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All things, whether good or evil, are determined by God to happen, hence,

...

 

So what effect does that have on me?

 

God is the force of nature and he certainly knows what he is going to do and he can predict what I am going to do because I  have free will as opposed to random will.

 

If I rolled a six-sided dice then God chose to have it come up six then he would do it for his reasons and those reasons are just and righteous.  

 

How does me knowing he did it or not make any real difference?


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#5
Born_Again

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So what effect does that have on me?

 

God is the force of nature and he certainly knows what he is going to do and he can predict what I am going to do because I  have free will as opposed to random will.

 

If I rolled a six-sided dice then God chose to have it come up six then he would do it for his reasons and those reasons are just and righteous.  

 

How does me knowing he did it or not make any real difference?

Kerwin,

 

The OP's intent was for everyone to read and for those who may not understand. Believers are not the only ones on this site. We have a few atheist members that might read this. This post is for the benefit of all.

 

BA


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#6
cga

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So what effect does that have on me?

 

God is the force of nature and he certainly knows what he is going to do and he can predict what I am going to do because I  have free will as opposed to random will.

 

If I rolled a six-sided dice then God chose to have it come up six then he would do it for his reasons and those reasons are just and righteous.  

 

How does me knowing he did it or not make any real difference?

 

Because having this wisdom are the riches of the kingdom of God,

 

Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! (Romans 11:33 [NIV])

 

Knowing all this gives understanding in how great and powerful God is. So it is to your advantage to come to understanding in all this, so that you do not lack in knowledge,

 

my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. "Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored the law of your God, I also will ignore your children. (Hosea 4:6 [NIV])

 

So do not reject knowledge, but rather, receive it and understand it.


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#7
StanJ

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To answer the question of the op... No, God does not predetermine everything that happens otherwise that means he predetermined that people will sin, and predetermined that Adam and Eve would sin, even though it clearly shows he didn't want them to sin.
God gave man free will and as such even though he may know what we will decide to do, he does not interfere in our Free Will and cause us to choose something we don't really want. what God wants is for us to surrender our free will to him and willfully do what he wants us to do.
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Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who doesn't need to be ashamed, correctly teaching the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (NIV)

Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone. Col 4:6 (NIV)

 


#8
justaname

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To answer the question of the op... No, God does not predetermine everything that happens otherwise that means he predetermined that people will sin, and predetermined that Adam and Eve would sin, even though it clearly shows he didn't want them to sin.
God gave man free will and as such even though he may know what we will decide to do, he does not interfere in our Free Will and cause us to choose something we don't really want. what God wants is for us to surrender our free will to him and willfully do what he wants us to do.

Do you have Scripture to support this, specifically that He does not interfere in our free-will?


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You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

#9
kerwin

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Kerwin,

 

The OP's intent was for everyone to read and for those who may not understand. Believers are not the only ones on this site. We have a few atheist members that might read this. This post is for the benefit of all.

 

BA

 

Thank you for your  answer!


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#10
kerwin

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To answer the question of the op... No, God does not predetermine everything that happens otherwise that means he predetermined that people will sin, and predetermined that Adam and Eve would sin, even though it clearly shows he didn't want them to sin.
God gave man free will and as such even though he may know what we will decide to do, he does not interfere in our Free Will and cause us to choose something we don't really want. what God wants is for us to surrender our free will to him and willfully do what he wants us to do.

 

God can predetermine that sin will occur without actually causing it to since he knows the heart of humanity and the free choice to sin comes from that heart. 

 

He does not cause a human to sin nor does he test anyone with the Spirit beyond their means to resist.  

 

He did harden the hearts of both Adam and Eve in that he allowed them to be tested in ways that even though they could choose to obey but instead they would choose to sin.

 

I believe you are confusing free will with random will as in the later the person could choose either obedience or disobedience is exactly the same situation while in the earlier that same person would always make the same choice as that choice come from their own heart.


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#11
StanJ

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Do you have Scripture to support this, specifically that He does not interfere in our free-will?


You can always start with Luke 17:33... there are many more.
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Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who doesn't need to be ashamed, correctly teaching the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (NIV)

Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone. Col 4:6 (NIV)

 


#12
justaname

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You can always start with Luke 17:33... there are many more.

Can you give some exegesis here.  I do not see how this supports your contention.


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You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

#13
StanJ

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Can you give some exegesis here.  I do not see how this supports your contention.


Really? You do not see how free will is a component of this verse of scripture? Come on justaname, you should know better than to play games with me.
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Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who doesn't need to be ashamed, correctly teaching the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (NIV)

Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone. Col 4:6 (NIV)

 


#14
kerwin

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Do you have Scripture to support this, specifically that He does not interfere in our free-will?

 

Please give an example of what you mean when you say "interfere".  Thank you!


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#15
justaname

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Please give an example of what you mean when you say "interfere". Thank you!


Actually this is Stan's language used. I was questioning it myself. But as you can see above I am not gettting very far as he does not want to support what he says...
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You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

#16
justaname

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Really? You do not see how free will is a component of this verse of scripture? Come on justaname, you should know better than to play games with me.

I do not see how this supports your, "God will not interfere with our free-will".

He seemed to interfere with Jonah's free-will via a great fish...

I do not deny man makes decisions based on his greatest desire. Yet God can and does interfere at times with those decisions, thereby changing man's desires. He did harden Pharoah's heart. He did strike Paul with blindness when Paul was content to persecute Christians.

God is the Sovereign, and we are mere creatures subject to Him. Our so called free-will has no dominion over Him.
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You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

#17
n2thelight

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God didn't create satan evil,it was his choice....


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"All that we have learned from our youth up must be tested and proved by the Word of God. Where we find it is true we must learn it over again, from God. And where it will not stand the test of His Word we must be not only content, but thankful to give it up; and receive Divine revelation in the place of man's imagination."

." E. W. Bullinger, D.D.

#18
n2thelight

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I don't feel God know's who will choose Him,else what's the point...

 

All have free will,except for the elect,ie,those who were chosen before the foundation of the world...

 

Again it's very important to understand the three heaven and earth ages


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"All that we have learned from our youth up must be tested and proved by the Word of God. Where we find it is true we must learn it over again, from God. And where it will not stand the test of His Word we must be not only content, but thankful to give it up; and receive Divine revelation in the place of man's imagination."

." E. W. Bullinger, D.D.

#19
StanJ

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I do not see how this supports your, "God will not interfere with our free-will".
He seemed to interfere with Jonah's free-will via a great fish...
I do not deny man makes decisions based on his greatest desire. Yet God can and does interfere at times with those decisions, thereby changing man's desires. He did harden Pharoah's heart. He did strike Paul with blindness when Paul was content to persecute Christians.
God is the Sovereign, and we are mere creatures subject to Him. Our so called free-will has no dominion over Him.

As God functioned differently under the Old Covenant than he does under the New Covenant should not come as a surprise to anybody who understands the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament.
Prophets were altogether a different class of believers under the old Covenant and as such would be disciplined by God when they refused to do what they were instructed to do. Let's try to stick with comparing Apples to Apples shall we. The op is not about being a prophet, the op is about predestination. Those who believe and accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior do so of their own volition and are not forced to accept him as their savior. Subsequent to that our free will still comes into play given we are required to either obey or not to obey what the Holy Spirit wants us to do. The goal of any Christian is to supplant our will for that of God's will, but no matter how you look at it, it is still our will that decides whether or not we listen to God and obey his will. The law of reaping and sowing has always been one of the basic laws of God's creation and that has not been superseded under the New Covenant. Nevertheless that does not mean we are ever forced to do what we do not will to do.
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Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who doesn't need to be ashamed, correctly teaching the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (NIV)

Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone. Col 4:6 (NIV)

 


#20
StanJ

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I don't feel God know's who will choose Him,else what's the point...
 
All have free will,except for the elect,ie,those who were chosen before the foundation of the world...
 
Again it's very important to understand the three heaven and earth ages


This is a misconception of scripture that is unfortunately common among some. I'm not sure what scripture reference you're referring to here, as there are a few, but scripture overall does not say what you have stated here. Please give the scriptural references you are referring to and we can discuss it.
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Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who doesn't need to be ashamed, correctly teaching the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (NIV)

Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone. Col 4:6 (NIV)

 


#21
Dcopymope

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I don't feel God know's who will choose Him,else what's the point...

 

All have free will,except for the elect,ie,those who were chosen before the foundation of the world...

 

Again it's very important to understand the three heaven and earth ages

 

 

This is a misconception of scripture that is unfortunately common among some. I'm not sure what scripture reference you're referring to here, as there are a few, but scripture overall does not say what you have stated here. Please give the scriptural references you are referring to and we can discuss it.

 


I have no idea what he means by "the elect" being chosen before the foundation of the world. As far as I can tell, the only "elect" chosen before the foundation of the world for anything was for Jesus Christ to be born, crucified and raised from the dead for our redemption. God doesn't predestine who gets saved and who doesn't, or who becomes "good" or "evil", because that would make God the author of evil itself and a liar when he clearly stated that it is not his wish for any of us to perish but to be saved by the blood atonement of Jesus Christ.


Edited by Dcopymope, 29 October 2016 - 09:08 PM.

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#22
StanJ

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I have no idea what he means by "the elect" being chosen before the foundation of the world. As far as I can tell, the only "elect" chosen before the foundation of the world for anything was for Jesus Christ to be born, crucified and raised from the dead for our redemption. God doesn't predestine who gets saved and who doesn't, or who becomes "good" or "evil", because that would make God the author of evil itself and a liar when he clearly stated that it is not his wish for any of us to perish but to be saved by the blood atonement of Jesus Christ.


Neither do I, which is why I asked, but until my question is answered I won't know how to reply. I totally agree with you though that God does not choose who will get saved and who will not and what choices we make or don't make. He may know them, but He definitely doesn't force us into anything against our will.
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Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who doesn't need to be ashamed, correctly teaching the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (NIV)

Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone. Col 4:6 (NIV)

 


#23
n2thelight

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Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"

 

What does it mean to be "chosen"?

 

It means that there are certain people that God chosen in the first earth age, to do a task for Him in this flesh earth age. This is not reincarnation, for it is appointed for each of us to go through this earth age, the flesh earth age, once and only once. We read; "...It is appointed unto men once to die [in the flesh], but after this the judgment.Hebrews 9:27 This appointing and choosing took place before the foundation of this earth age; the second earth age [cosmos] that we now live in.

 

"Without blame" refers to the fact that God intercedes in certain peoples lives. Certain people have free will, while certain others are of God's election, however, God doesn't play favorites. Christ died for the sins of all who will repent; the chosen, and the free-will. All must repent for sins they commit, and love the Lord Jesus Christ, to have the hope of His glory.

 

"Before the foundation of the world", [cosmos in the Greek, meaning world or earth age.] The "foundation" in the Greek text, is the verb for, "the overthrow". This refers to something that happened in that first earth age, before the overthrow of Satan and his angels that followed him. When Satan fell [war against God], one third of all angelic beings [God's children] followed Satan. Then during that war, there were some who fought against Satan, and those who did, God calls "His Chosen". They took a stand, and were overcomers in that first earth age.

Have you ever wondered why you do the things that you do, at times. It's just like you have a destiny. You have always felt their is more to life, and this world, then what you have been taught. Paul addresses this in Romans 8:27. In verse twenty six it says that there are times in your life when the Holy Spirit makes intercession for you because you don't even know what to pray for.

 

"And he that searcheth the heart knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 8:27 These saints are "the set-aside ones", or "the chosen". God has a overall plan, and a purpose in that plan just for you. That purpose is to bring back His children to Him; after that overthrow, and in this earth age.

 

Why would God intercede in a person's life, without them even asking? When your free-will goes against God's purpose for your life, God will intercede. When Paul's "free will" was to destroy all Christians, God's will was to take this highly educated man, and use Paul as the instrument for Him. Paul used to same drive to destroy Christians, that he used later to convert people, after his conversion.

We read that the Lord said; "...For He is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and Kings, and children of Israel:" Acts 9:15

 

Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"

"Predestined" means "from a prior time", or "required to do a certain thing" in the Greek text. You have a choice of loving God, or loving Satan. God will not interfere with your free will choice to chose Him or Satan. However, that person that proved himself during the overthrow of Satan, were "justified", or earned the right to be called "saints", from that first earth age.

 

Each soul comes from God, and enters an embryo at conception. This is why Jeremiah was a chosen one. "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou comest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet of nations." Jeremiah 1:5

"Sanctified" thee, is to "set aside, or apart for a purpose". Sins still have to be repented, and the price to pay for them still had to be made. To the predestined, and fore chosen, God can make life so miserable to those out of His will that they will repent. God has a perfect will, and God is always fair.

 

"And we know that all things work together for good, to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose." Romans 8:28 This verse is directed to a certain people, with a condition attached. This applies to "them who are called according to His purpose." "His purpose" is called God's plan, and God's overall plan is the offering of Salvation to all. That plan includes the teaching of God's Word; to plant seeds to convict; to live our life for Him; and to go and speak where God leads you. God will use you as it pleases Him.

"For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." Romans 8:29 God knew you, and what you were in that first earth age; and then [in that first earth age] God prearranged our destiny for this age. That destiny is to make us conform, or be like His Son, Jesus Christ. Though Jesus is the first fruits to overcome death, there are many that have that victory over death, through Christ's death and resurrection

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"Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called: He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified." Romans 8:30 "Justified" means "judged" in the Greek text; God judged them there in that first earth age, and that is why God can and does intercede in the chosen's ones lives. The justified are the priests of the Zadok in the millennium age of Ezekiel 40, for the word Zadok comes from the Hebrew word meaning "the just".

 

Certain of God's children stood against Satan in the first earth age, and those that did stand, and did not follow Satan; God judged [justified], and He "chose" them then to be used in His eternal plan. Through God's perfect plan, God "predestined", and "ordained" each of them to His purpose to be used in this flesh age. Each of these will also be used in the Millennium age as priests, or called the "Zadok".

When you become a Christian, and God has given you a working over, He is trying to wake you up. God is calling out a people, His people, the "Elect-chosen, and predestined" to stand against the Antichrist [Satan] in this final generation.

 

"What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?"Romans 8:31 "What things"? The things mentioned in verses 27-30. The knowledge that God has judged the overcomers, and chose them for the purpose of fulfilling His plan; then predestined those overcomers to a service, not only in this flesh age, but the millennium age to come. They will be the priests [Zadok] then.

 

http://www.theseason.../ephesians1.htm


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"All that we have learned from our youth up must be tested and proved by the Word of God. Where we find it is true we must learn it over again, from God. And where it will not stand the test of His Word we must be not only content, but thankful to give it up; and receive Divine revelation in the place of man's imagination."

." E. W. Bullinger, D.D.

#24
n2thelight

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Romans 9:11 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;"

 

Romans 9:12 "It was said unto her, "The elder shall serve the younger."

 

Romans 9:13 "As it is written "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

 

Why did God hate Easu?

 

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

 

 

And how did He know Jeremiah?

 

And please don't say because He knows everything,if thats your answer,don't answer!!!!!


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"All that we have learned from our youth up must be tested and proved by the Word of God. Where we find it is true we must learn it over again, from God. And where it will not stand the test of His Word we must be not only content, but thankful to give it up; and receive Divine revelation in the place of man's imagination."

." E. W. Bullinger, D.D.

#25
justaname

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As God functioned differently under the Old Covenant than he does under the New Covenant should not come as a surprise to anybody who understands the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament.
Prophets were altogether a different class of believers under the old Covenant and as such would be disciplined by God when they refused to do what they were instructed to do. Let's try to stick with comparing Apples to Apples shall we. The op is not about being a prophet, the op is about predestination. Those who believe and accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior do so of their own volition and are not forced to accept him as their savior. Subsequent to that our free will still comes into play given we are required to either obey or not to obey what the Holy Spirit wants us to do. The goal of any Christian is to supplant our will for that of God's will, but no matter how you look at it, it is still our will that decides whether or not we listen to God and obey his will. The law of reaping and sowing has always been one of the basic laws of God's creation and that has not been superseded under the New Covenant. Nevertheless that does not mean we are ever forced to do what we do not will to do.

Again...Paul the Apostle...Apples to Apples...Paul was content persecuting Christians, yet God showed him how much he would have to suffer for His namesake. Acts 9:16

 

Allow me this to add in our discussion.  It is not that any are forced to accept God and the salvation He offers, Jesus as Lord, as truly the creature desires to obey the Creator (Romans 8:19) only he/she is subject to bondage to sin and in open rebellion.  But let's keep in mind every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.  

 

All of God's children seek to love and serve Him.  Paul makes a great example.  He wanted to serve the true God, and in his heart he thought he was doing the right thing.  Yet God interfered with Saul's current activity of persecuting Jesus and superseded his free-will to correct his path.    

 

By freeing us from rebellion God is allowing us follow our redeemed desires rather than be entrapped to our desires maligned by the fall.  In our current state we still combat sin, yet we are being transformed into the image of His Son who always did what was pleasing to the Father.  We have an old desire we are putting to death and a redeemed desire that is perfect in it's ways.  Those who come to God come both freely and by their own will or desire for this fits within the redeemed desire, all while it was/is within God's monergistic activity they come.


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You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

#26
StanJ

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Again...Paul the Apostle...Apples to Apples...Paul was content persecuting Christians, yet God showed him how much he would have to suffer for His namesake. Acts 9:16

Jesus call Paul to be his Apostle to the Gentiles. He didn't force him to be.

 
Allow me this to add in our discussion.  It is not that any are forced to accept God and the salvation He offers, Jesus as Lord, as truly the creature desires to obey the Creator (Romans 8:19) only he/she is subject to bondage to sin and in open rebellion.  But let's keep in mind every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.

Romans 8:19 reads; For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.
I'm afraid your assertion here totally ignores the fact of our carnal nature and that the human heart is deceitfully wicked above all things. Yes, every knee will bow, when they no longer see darkly as if in a mirror.

 
All of God's children seek to love and serve Him.  Paul makes a great example.  He wanted to serve the true God, and in his heart he thought he was doing the right thing.  Yet God interfered with Saul's current activity of persecuting Jesus and superseded his free-will to correct his path.

Saul was jealous that is a far cry from seeking to love and serve God. Judas was also jealous and he was the one that betrayed Jesus. Jesus no more interfered with Saul, than he did with any of the Apostles that he called. These are quite the mental gymnastics you're doing!

By freeing us from rebellion God is allowing us follow our redeemed desires rather than be entrapped to our desires maligned by the fall.  In our current state we still combat sin, yet we are being transformed into the image of His Son who always did what was pleasing to the Father.  We have an old desire we are putting to death and a redeemed desire that is perfect in it's ways.  Those who come to God come both freely and by their own will or desire for this fits within the redeemed desire, all while it was/is within God's monergistic activity they come.

We are only freed from rebellion if we stop rebelling and accept Jesus as our savior. God draws us but we are the ones that have to respond to that drawing, either positively or negatively. If we were not in control of our decisions we could not possibly be held responsible for our actions. As the Bible clearly shows that we are responsible for our actions then we obviously are in control of them I'm have the free will to do as we desire.
The reality of the Bible is a synergistic one.
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Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who doesn't need to be ashamed, correctly teaching the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (NIV)

Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone. Col 4:6 (NIV)

 


#27
StanJ

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Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"

I don't see anything here and your entire copy and paste job that says the elect were chosen before the foundation of the world.
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Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who doesn't need to be ashamed, correctly teaching the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (NIV)

Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone. Col 4:6 (NIV)

 


#28
justaname

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Jesus call Paul to be his Apostle to the Gentiles. He didn't force him to be.
Romans 8:19 reads; For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.
I'm afraid your assertion here totally ignores the fact of our carnal nature and that the human heart is deceitfully wicked above all things. Yes, every knee will bow, when they no longer see darkly as if in a mirror.
Saul was jealous that is a far cry from seeking to love and serve God. Judas was also jealous and he was the one that betrayed Jesus. Jesus no more interfered with Saul, than he did with any of the Apostles that he called. These are quite the mental gymnastics you're doing!
We are only freed from rebellion if we stop rebelling and accept Jesus as our savior. God draws us but we are the ones that have to respond to that drawing, either positively or negatively. If we were not in control of our decisions we could not possibly be held responsible for our actions. As the Bible clearly shows that we are responsible for our actions then we obviously are in control of them I'm have the free will to do as we desire.
The reality of the Bible is a synergistic one.


So Jesus strikes Saul with blindness and this is not interfering.

Thanks for the discussion, it is obvious you don't want one you just want to spout your eisegesis.
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You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

#29
StanJ

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So Jesus strikes Saul with blindness and this is not interfering.
Thanks for the discussion, it is obvious you don't want one you just want to spout your eisegesis.

I'm not actually convinced that Jesus struck Paul with blindness, but the blinding light that resulted from his appearance could have caused Paul's severe myopic condition to get even worse and then it took a while for his eyes to recover. That condition was The Thorn In the Flesh that Paul spoke about throughout his letters.
your MO has not changed at all since we last discussed this issue justaname. You still throw around wild accusations at the drop of a hat.
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Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who doesn't need to be ashamed, correctly teaching the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (NIV)

Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone. Col 4:6 (NIV)

 


#30
justaname

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I'm not actually convinced that Jesus struck Paul with blindness, but the blinding light that resulted from his appearance could have caused Paul's severe myopic condition to get even worse and then it took a while for his eyes to recover. That condition was The Thorn In the Flesh that Paul spoke about throughout his letters.
your MO has not changed at all since we last discussed this issue justaname. You still throw around wild accusations at the drop of a hat.


You are quibbling about how the blindness came about rather than the issue of Jesus appearing to Saul. God knew Paul would go blind when He appeared to Him. Paul's blindness was a direct result of God appearing to him. Jesus simply appearing to Saul is interfering with Saul's free will, blindness or not. Clearly you are deflecting and I don't want to waste my time. Now if you are open to honest discourse, I stand corrected and apologize, yet it does not seem that way to me.

Then you want to discount God's sovereign activity in the Old Teatament without warrent, yet you and I both know it is full of God supercedeing any man's will. Just like this account:

So the king did not listen to the people, for it was a turn of affairs brought about by the LORD that he might fulfill his word, which the LORD spoke by Ahijah the Shilonite to Jeroboam the son of Nebat. - 1 Kings 12:15

God's covenant has changed, but He has not. You have no case that God does not interfere with man's free-will, neither can you support this false assertion.
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You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.




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