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Predestination, All Things are Determined by God, Even the Outcome of a Roll of a Dice

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#31
StanJ

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You are quibbling about how the blindness came about rather than the issue of Jesus appearing to Saul. God knew Paul would go blind when He appeared to Him. Paul's blindness was a direct result of God appearing to him. Jesus simply appearing to Saul is interfering with Saul's free will, blindness or not. Clearly you are deflecting and I don't want to waste my time. Now if you are open to honest discourse, I stand corrected and apologize, yet it does not seem that way to me.
Then you want to discount God's sovereign activity in the Old Teatament without warrent, yet you and I both know it is full of God supercedeing any man's will. Just like this account:
So the king did not listen to the people, for it was a turn of affairs brought about by the LORD that he might fulfill his word, which the LORD spoke by Ahijah the Shilonite to Jeroboam the son of Nebat. - 1 Kings 12:15
God's covenant has changed, but He has not. You have no case that God does not interfere with man's free-will, neither can you support this false assertion.

It's not quibbling at all, it's setting the record straight. You're the one that brought it up out of context in order to deflect. Remember you're the one that started asking the questions and I've been answering them but you just don't like the answers. Now again you bring up Old Testament examples that have nothing to do with the issue Free Will and salvation. I've never advocated that there is no repercussion with a man exercising their free will but you make it sound as if God deliberately interferes without cause. God always gives us a choice just as he did with all the Kings of Israel and every other nation that they interacted with. Apparently you think that God is some kind of Universal Puppet Master?
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Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who doesn't need to be ashamed, correctly teaching the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (NIV)

Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone. Col 4:6 (NIV)

 


#32
Born_Again

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If God doesn't interfere, then how could prophecy be fulfilled? Without prophecy, everything is just a roll of the dice and God gets surprised at every roll. We are trying to understand a being that we can not possibly comprehend. In this scripture below, God declares we cant understand Him and never will. There are two pages worth of posts with people claiming they know what God will and will not do. Its almost blasphemy. Justaname has provided numerous examples of both NT and OT incidents where God did interfere. And the best response anyone could come up with was "God doesn't do that anymore". I'm sorry, but that is extremely arrogant and ignorant. Who are we to set limits on the creator of everything we know?

 

Isaiah 55:8-9 (ESV)

For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
    neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts.


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#33
lforrest

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It's not quibbling at all, it's setting the record straight. You're the one that brought it up out of context in order to deflect. Remember you're the one that started asking the questions and I've been answering them but you just don't like the answers. Now again you bring up Old Testament examples that have nothing to do with the issue Free Will and salvation. I've never advocated that there is no repercussion with a man exercising their free will but you make it sound as if God deliberately interferes without cause. God always gives us a choice just as he did with all the Kings of Israel and every other nation that they interacted with. Apparently you think that God is some kind of Universal Puppet Master?



Consider jeremiah 20:9
But if I say, “I will not mention his word or speak anymore in his name,” his word is in my heart like a fire, a fire shut up in my bones. I am weary of holding it in; indeed, I cannot.

This reveals a spiritual aspect of decision making, jeremiah is a slave to righteousness as is explained in Romans 6.

So as humans created as servants we are inclined towards servitude. We will obey our master whomever that is. But this choice of whom to serve appears to be in our hands, because if it weren't how could man have fallen? I think God does try to influence us to pick him. Likewise Satan attempts to get us pick him.
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#34
StanJ

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Consider jeremiah 20:9
But if I say, “I will not mention his word or speak anymore in his name,” his word is in my heart like a fire, a fire shut up in my bones. I am weary of holding it in; indeed, I cannot.
This reveals a spiritual aspect of decision making, jeremiah is a slave to righteousness as is explained in Romans 6.
So as humans created as servants we are inclined towards servitude. We will obey our master whomever that is. But this choice of whom to serve appears to be in our hands, because if it weren't how could man have fallen? I think God does try to influence us to pick him. Likewise Satan attempts to get us pick him.


AMEN!
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Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who doesn't need to be ashamed, correctly teaching the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (NIV)

Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone. Col 4:6 (NIV)

 


#35
StanJ

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If God doesn't interfere, then how could prophecy be fulfilled? Without prophecy, everything is just a roll of the dice and God gets surprised at every roll. We are trying to understand a being that we can not possibly comprehend. In this scripture below, God declares we cant understand Him and never will. There are two pages worth of posts with people claiming they know what God will and will not do. Its almost blasphemy. Justaname has provided numerous examples of both NT and OT incidents where God did interfere. And the best response anyone could come up with was "God doesn't do that anymore". I'm sorry, but that is extremely arrogant and ignorant. Who are we to set limits on the creator of everything we know?
 

Isaiah 55:8-9 (ESV)

For my thoughts are not your thoughts,    [/size]neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.For as the heavens are higher than the earth,    [/size]so are my ways higher than your ways    [/size]and my thoughts than your thoughts.


Prophecy is not interference, prophecy is about what God will do despite what man does. Man having free will does not mean that God is any less Sovereign than he is. Sovereignty is about God running the show and Free Will is about how he made us.
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Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who doesn't need to be ashamed, correctly teaching the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (NIV)

Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone. Col 4:6 (NIV)

 


#36
Dcopymope

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If God doesn't interfere, then how could prophecy be fulfilled? Without prophecy, everything is just a roll of the dice and God gets surprised at every roll. We are trying to understand a being that we can not possibly comprehend. In this scripture below, God declares we cant understand Him and never will. There are two pages worth of posts with people claiming they know what God will and will not do. Its almost blasphemy. Justaname has provided numerous examples of both NT and OT incidents where God did interfere. And the best response anyone could come up with was "God doesn't do that anymore". I'm sorry, but that is extremely arrogant and ignorant. Who are we to set limits on the creator of everything we know?

 

Isaiah 55:8-9 (ESV)

For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
    neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

 

 

Prophecy is not interference, prophecy is about what God will do despite what man does. Man having free will does not mean that God is any less Sovereign than he is. Sovereignty is about God running the show and Free Will is about how he made us.

 

 

 

(Mark 14:29-30) "But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will not I.  {30} And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice."

 

When Jesus stated that Peter would deny him three times before the cock crowed twice, that in a sense can be considered a prophecy. Its not necessarily just about what God will do despite the actions of man, prophecy is also about what God knows is bound to happen regardless of mans free will. At no point is it stated that God hardened or put it in Peter's heart to deny him three times. He didn't deny him because of God's interference, he just knew it was going to happen simply because God knows the future. He's already seen it, because he is the past, present and future, the beginning and the end, the alpha and omega. Time means nothing to him, because to him, what we call future events has already occurred to God.


Edited by Dcopymope, 31 October 2016 - 10:13 PM.

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#37
justaname

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It's not quibbling at all, it's setting the record straight. You're the one that brought it up out of context in order to deflect. Remember you're the one that started asking the questions and I've been answering them but you just don't like the answers. Now again you bring up Old Testament examples that have nothing to do with the issue Free Will and salvation. I've never advocated that there is no repercussion with a man exercising their free will but you make it sound as if God deliberately interferes without cause. God always gives us a choice just as he did with all the Kings of Israel and every other nation that they interacted with. Apparently you think that God is some kind of Universal Puppet Master?


No I do not think God is a puppet master, yet I believe the Scriptures. And I seem to be the only one using them to support my case.

When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, "Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life." - Acts 11:18

I hold to what I have stated from the beginning. God does interfere with the free-will of men. It is He that grants repentance. And men freely act in accordance with their greatest desires. The unredeemed nonbelievers act in sin, while the redeemed have the propensity to obey God, yet even they fail at times.

God is Sovereign in the affairs of men, the Scripture wholly attests to this even to the point where you are in unbelief, all while men are culpable for their actions. Perhaps you are uneasy with this tension, but do not seek to blame God for the evil actions men do.

this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. - Acts 2:23

It was God's plan Jesus was crucified, and He used evil, willing men to enact His plan.
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You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

#38
StanJ

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No I do not think God is a puppet master, yet I believe the Scriptures. And I seem to be the only one using them to support my case.
When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, "Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life." - Acts 11:18
I hold to what I have stated from the beginning. God does interfere with the free-will of men. It is He that grants repentance. And men freely act in accordance with their greatest desires. The unredeemed nonbelievers act in sin, while the redeemed have the propensity to obey God, yet even they fail at times.
God is Sovereign in the affairs of men, the Scripture wholly attests to this even to the point where you are in unbelief, all while men are culpable for their actions. Perhaps you are uneasy with this tension, but do not seek to blame God for the evil actions men do.
this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. - Acts 2:23
It was God's plan Jesus was crucified, and He used evil, willing men to enact His plan.

So you're saying you don't believe God is a puppet master but the scriptures say He is? That makes no sense.
Acts 11:18 has nothing to do with predestination or God interfering in people's lives. It's about opening up the New Covenant to Gentiles when it was originally only meant for the Jews.
I know what you stated but you just haven't been able to show it from scripture except in a twisted sort of way.
So now you're agreeing that men really act of their free-will? Could you make up your mind please. The only thing I am uneasy with in this dialogue is how quickly you jump from one point-of-view to the opposite. The scripture says that while we were yet sinners God reconciled us to himself through his son and the scriptures also say that he redeemed mankind not just those who believed in him. You seem to lack a grasp of some of the basics of soteriology. In Acts 2:23, Peter speaks in the context of God's foreknowledge, just as he did in 1 Peter 1:2 and just as Paul did in Romans 8:29 - 30. Foreknowledge is not a synonym for interference.

Edited by StanJ, 01 November 2016 - 02:22 PM.

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Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who doesn't need to be ashamed, correctly teaching the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (NIV)

Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone. Col 4:6 (NIV)

 


#39
justaname

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So you're saying you don't believe God is a puppet master but the scriptures say He is? That makes no sense.
Acts 11:18 has nothing to do with predestination or God interfering in people's lives. It's about opening up the New Covenant to Gentiles when it was originally only meant for the Jews.
I know what you stated but you just haven't been able to show it from scripture except in a twisted sort of way.
So now you're agreeing that men really act of their free-will? Could you make up your mind please. The only thing I am uneasy with in this dialogue is how quickly you jump from one point-of-view to the opposite. The scripture says that while we were yet sinners God reconciled us to himself through his son and the scriptures also say that he redeemed mankind not just those who believed in him. You seem to lack a grasp of some of the basics of soteriology. In Acts 2:23, Peter speaks in the context of God's foreknowledge, just as he did in 1 Peter 1:2 and just as Paul did in Romans 8:29 - 30. Foreknowledge is not a synonym for interference.

I am not saying God is a puppet master neither did I say Scriptures say He is, you are putting those words into this discussion.  Straw-man...

 

Acts 11:18 is clear... "Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life."

Repentance deals with a changing of one's thinking about a certain concept or idea.  God granted the changing of the idea of who Christ is and what He has done into the true and proper idea.

 

Philippians 1:29 teaches God grants that we believe.

 For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

 

Romans 12:3 again verifies God gives the measure of faith.

For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. 

 

Do you understand if you are the originator of faith pride rules you, yet if God is the originator of your faith then truly you are humbled?

 

Ephesians 2:8-10

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

 

If we are the originator of our faith then we have the boast of I am a self made Christian where others were too foolish to receive the gift.  Through my proper choices I have accepted God!  Yet the Scriptures remove boasting...look closely...and that not of yourselves...the faith is a gift.  Grace by definition is unmerited favor. 

 

Now as to your confusion.  You seem to want an either or type of answer.  Either God does not interfere with men and men are culpable for their actions or God does interfere and God is culpable for the actions of men.  Yet this is not what the Scripture presents.  God does interfere, as in the case of Pharaoh and many kings depicted in Scripture as well as His prophets and His people Israel and Paul the apostle and the list goes on...all while men are culpable for their actions and will answer to God for what they have done while in the body.

 

Romans 9

One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?"

On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

 

 

Now lets look to how God defines His foreknowledge:

 

Isaiah 46:8-11

Remember this and stand firm, recall it to mind, you transgressors, 9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, “My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,” calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it.

 

It is by His counsel and by His purpose that He declares the end from the beginning.  He has spoken, He has purposed, and He will do it.  He is not a soothsayer, He plans what comes and He brings about what comes.

 

Finally I want you to think about this.  If God does not interfere with the free-will of men, why would you ever pray for the salvation of another person?  Why would you ever pray someone comes to belief?  Why would you pray someone abides in Christ?

 

God would be unable to answer your prayers... 


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You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

#40
StanJ

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I am not saying God is a puppet master neither did I say Scriptures say He is, you are putting those words into this discussion.  Straw-man...

And it's really up to you to be clear on what you are saying when you post.

Acts 11:18 is clear... "Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life."
Repentance deals with a changing of one's thinking about a certain concept or idea.  God granted the changing of the idea of who Christ is and what He has done into the true and proper idea.

Repentance comes from a free-will decision of the heart it is not something that is programmed into us by God. The fact that God opened up the New Covenant to Gentiles is the only reason we are able to exercise our Free Will in this regard as Paul states in Romans 10:9-11. Maybe you should read it?

Philippians 1:29 teaches God grants that we believe.
For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake

Not surprising as it is God that draws us to himself but Paul was also adding an additional comment here of Prophecy and that not only were they not Believers but that they would suffer for their belief. this is not interference at all but simply inclusion into the plans that God originally had only for the nation of Israel.

Romans 12:3 again verifies God gives the measure of faith.
For throughthe grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

The context that Paul is dealing with here is the gift of discernment or knowledge which is distributed by God, and according to a person's faith, they will exercise that knowledge. No different than what Paul says in 1st Corinthians 12:11

Do you understand if you are the originator of faith pride rules you, yet if God is the originator of your faith then truly you are humbled?

That is your opinion, that is not factual as far as scripture is concerned. If they were almost twice as many mentions of the word faith in the New Testament as there are in the Old Testament and the reason being that the New Testament or New Covenant operates by faith. That faith is resident in us as Jesus makes very clear in Matthew 6:30 and 8:10. It is up to us to feed our faith and that's growing God, unless you really feel that God arbitrarily gives people different levels of faith and then blames them for not having enough faith?

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

What Paul is talking about here is the gift of Salvation that God gave us and that is not something we attained by works but simply by faith or belief. Yes we are his workmanship, if we are saved, which is exactly what Paul also states in Romans 8:29. God does not make us believe we either believe what we see and know or we don't which is another thing that Paul made abundantly clear in Romans 1:18-20.

 
If we are the originator of our faith then we have the boast of I am a self made Christian where others were too foolish to receive the gift.  Through my proper choices I have accepted God!  Yet the Scriptures remove boasting...look closely...and that not of yourselves...the faith is a gift.  Grace by definition is unmerited favor.

The belief is on us to accept Jesus Christ or not, that is what Paul clearly teaches in Romans 10. Do you honestly believe that those that believe as you do are not susceptible to self-righteousness? This is a stale old argument that doesn't hold any water whatsoever. The gift that God is talking about, as I've just said, is salvation.

 
Now as to your confusion.  You seem to want an either or type of answer.  Either God does not interfere with men and men are culpable for their actions or God does interfere and God is culpable for the actions of men.  Yet this is not what the Scripture presents.  God does interfere, as in the case of Pharaoh and many kings depicted in Scripture as well as His prophets and His people Israel and Paul the apostle and the list goes on...all while men are culpable for their actions and will answer to God for what they have done while in the body.

The only confusion is on your part in not being able to see the logic in my questions. That period again as I've already said is an Old Testament / Old Covenant and this issue is a New Testament / New Covenant issue and as such God did not interact with believers in the Old Testament the way he does interact with believers in the New Testament under the New Covenant that Jesus ushered in. Typically you mis-apply out of context scripture.

Romans 9
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?"
On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

As you've just demonstrated here Romans 9 is hard for some people to understand and its proper context but Paul was speaking to Jews who thought being born the land of Israel would make them eligible for the old Covenant Promises of God and therefore eligible for the New Covenant promises and that was not the case.
Verse 8 puts this whole chapter into context and shows that belief and faith in God's promises and not the fact that one is born nto The Land of Israel, was key. If you carefully read vs 30-32, it may give you better insight into the real context of this chapter and not what you're trying to make it out to be. God's word does not contradict itself and every time you try to make it do so you are speaking against his word.

Finally I want you to think about this. If God does not interfere with the free-will of men, why would you ever pray for the salvation of another person? Why would you ever pray someone comes to belief? Why would you pray someone abides in Christ? God would be unable to answer your prayers...

That's a strawman and a red herring, because you couldn't answer that question either given your point of view. Remember that we don't wrestle against flesh and blood so when we pray for people to be saved we're praying and coming against the principalities and powers of darkness that are resisting, not the actual person themselves to change their mind. If you need to know how to pray than read Matthew 6 to see what to pray.
  • 0

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who doesn't need to be ashamed, correctly teaching the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (NIV)

Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone. Col 4:6 (NIV)

 


#41
justaname

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The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!" - Luke 17:5

It seems the apostles understood where faith comes from...
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You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

#42
FHII

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The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!" - Luke 17:5

It seems the apostles understood where faith comes from...


Faith comes by hearing the word through a preacher. Rom 10
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#43
kerwin

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Faith comes by hearing the word through a preacher. Rom 10

 

Do you consider Scripture as being a preacher?


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#44
kerwin

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The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!" - Luke 17:5

It seems the apostles understood where faith comes from...

 

Yes, it comes from God which does not mean it does not come from hearing the word of God.


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#45
justaname

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And it's really up to you to be clear on what you are saying when you post.
Repentance comes from a free-will decision of the heart it is not something that is programmed into us by God. The fact that God opened up the New Covenant to Gentiles is the only reason we are able to exercise our Free Will in this regard as Paul states in Romans 10:9-11. Maybe you should read it?
Not surprising as it is God that draws us to himself but Paul was also adding an additional comment here of Prophecy and that not only were they not Believers but that they would suffer for their belief. this is not interference at all but simply inclusion into the plans that God originally had only for the nation of Israel.
The context that Paul is dealing with here is the gift of discernment or knowledge which is distributed by God, and according to a person's faith, they will exercise that knowledge. No different than what Paul says in 1st Corinthians 12:11
That is your opinion, that is not factual as far as scripture is concerned. If they were almost twice as many mentions of the word faith in the New Testament as there are in the Old Testament and the reason being that the New Testament or New Covenant operates by faith. That faith is resident in us as Jesus makes very clear in Matthew 6:30 and 8:10. It is up to us to feed our faith and that's growing God, unless you really feel that God arbitrarily gives people different levels of faith and then blames them for not having enough faith?
What Paul is talking about here is the gift of Salvation that God gave us and that is not something we attained by works but simply by faith or belief. Yes we are his workmanship, if we are saved, which is exactly what Paul also states in Romans 8:29. God does not make us believe we either believe what we see and know or we don't which is another thing that Paul made abundantly clear in Romans 1:18-20.
The belief is on us to accept Jesus Christ or not, that is what Paul clearly teaches in Romans 10. Do you honestly believe that those that believe as you do are not susceptible to self-righteousness? This is a stale old argument that doesn't hold any water whatsoever. The gift that God is talking about, as I've just said, is salvation.
The only confusion is on your part in not being able to see the logic in my questions. That period again as I've already said is an Old Testament / Old Covenant and this issue is a New Testament / New Covenant issue and as such God did not interact with believers in the Old Testament the way he does interact with believers in the New Testament under the New Covenant that Jesus ushered in. Typically you mis-apply out of context scripture.
As you've just demonstrated here Romans 9 is hard for some people to understand and its proper context but Paul was speaking to Jews who thought being born the land of Israel would make them eligible for the old Covenant Promises of God and therefore eligible for the New Covenant promises and that was not the case.
Verse 8 puts this whole chapter into context and shows that belief and faith in God's promises and not the fact that one is born nto The Land of Israel, was key. If you carefully read vs 30-32, it may give you better insight into the real context of this chapter and not what you're trying to make it out to be. God's word does not contradict itself and every time you try to make it do so you are speaking against his word.
That's a strawman and a red herring, because you couldn't answer that question either given your point of view. Remember that we don't wrestle against flesh and blood so when we pray for people to be saved we're praying and coming against the principalities and powers of darkness that are resisting, not the actual person themselves to change their mind. If you need to know how to pray than read Matthew 6 to see what to pray.

Let me just comment on a few things.

1. Scripture explicitly teaches God grants repentance. The Jews in this conversation have already received the repentance, whereas not every Jew did. The Gentiles that received the repentance God gave were the ones Peter was speaking about.

2. Scripture teaches God grants that we believe. Here you agreed. If He grants belief, then repentance from
improper views is automatically assumed.

3. Scripture teaches God gives a measure of faith. I agree the context, yet this only strengthens the idea God does interfere with free-will by instilling a measure of faith or trust. He could just leave it entirely up to us, but he doesn't. Then who are you to say God's measuring of faith is arbitrary?

4 I am not stating I am not able to fall to self-righteousness, rather that if you believe you mustered the faith in the gospel from your own heart surely the seeds of pride have already been planted.

5. I have no difficulty understanding Romans 9 and completely understand the context. Yet the context does not discount the strength of the language used nor does it refute the idea of God selecting individuals. Context shows Paul is speaking about nations and individuals. God has selected individuals from the nation of Israel and from the Gentile nations. God has mercy on whom He desires. He has compassion on whom He has compassion. The Holy Spirit explicitly states it does not depend on human will or exertion, but on God who has mercy. Yet you continually argue salvation is wholly dependent on human will. You are wrong.

So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. - Romans 9:16

This verse is not talking one bit about where a person was born, yet the Holy Spirit contextually added it here in the epistle. This is no coincidence.

You attempt to refute every explicit statement given by God concerning His sovereign activity within salvation. Why do you so strongly want to hold to the idea that you are the responsible party for your faith and ultimately your salvation? Give the credit to God.

Let me give this last verse.

And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." - John 6:65

I have made the Scriptural case that God grants repentance, God grants belief, God grants faith, and here Jesus explicitly states that only those granted by God come to Him.
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You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

#46
justaname

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Faith comes by hearing the word through a preacher. Rom 10


Who sent the preacher?
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You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

#47
justaname

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Yes, it comes from God which does not mean it does not come from hearing the word of God.


I agree.
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You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

#48
FHII

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Do you consider Scripture as being a preacher?



Yea... Sure. In the same way that I consider a song to be a singer.

In other words.... No.
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#49
StanJ

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The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!" - Luke 17:5 It seems the apostles understood where faith comes from...


Yes they did, which is why they said increase OUR faith, and Jesus responded by saying if YOU have faith the size of a mustard seed. He didn't correct them about whose faith it was they were talking about. This is no different than what the father in Mark 9:24 ask Jesus to do. Why would Jesus answer positively to both of these prayers if they were asking wrongly in the sense that it wasn't their faith but something God had instilled in them? In the light of James 4:3 these people obviously did not ask wrongly or amiss.
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Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who doesn't need to be ashamed, correctly teaching the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (NIV)

Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone. Col 4:6 (NIV)

 


#50
StanJ

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Let me just comment on a few things.
1. Scripture explicitly teaches God grants repentance. The Jews in this conversation have already received the repentance, whereas not every Jew did. The Gentiles that received the repentance God gave were the ones Peter was speaking about.
2. Scripture teaches God grants that we believe. Here you agreed. If He grants belief, then repentance from
improper views is automatically assumed.
3. Scripture teaches God gives a measure of faith. I agree the context, yet this only strengthens the idea God does interfere with free-will by instilling a measure of faith or trust. He could just leave it entirely up to us, but he doesn't. Then who are you to say God's measuring of faith is arbitrary?
4 I am not stating I am not able to fall to self-righteousness, rather that if you believe you mustered the faith in the gospel from your own heart surely the seeds of pride have already been planted.
5. I have no difficulty understanding Romans 9 and completely understand the context. Yet the context does not discount the strength of the language used nor does it refute the idea of God selecting individuals. Context shows Paul is speaking about nations and individuals. God has selected individuals from the nation of Israel and from the Gentile nations. God has mercy on whom He desires. He has compassion on whom He has compassion. The Holy Spirit explicitly states it does not depend on human will or exertion, but on God who has mercy. Yet you continually argue salvation is wholly dependent on human will. You are wrong.
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. - Romans 9:16
This verse is not talking one bit about where a person was born, yet the Holy Spirit contextually added it here in the epistle. This is no coincidence.
You attempt to refute every explicit statement given by God concerning His sovereign activity within salvation. Why do you so strongly want to hold to the idea that you are the responsible party for your faith and ultimately your salvation? Give the credit to God.
Let me give this last verse.
And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." - John 6:65
I have made the Scriptural case that God grants repentance, God grants belief, God grants faith, and here Jesus explicitly states that only those granted by God come to Him.

You're either getting lazy here or realize you can't address each point so you shove it all together in 1 Post and start repeating herself rather than address each point that I brought up. if you're not interested in pursuing this then just let me know but if you are then please address each point I brought up just as I did for your posts.
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Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who doesn't need to be ashamed, correctly teaching the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (NIV)

Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone. Col 4:6 (NIV)

 


#51
StanJ

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Who sent the preacher?


God causes growth from a seed that is already there, that He waters, as Paul clearly teachers in 1 Corinthians 3:6

Edited by StanJ, 02 November 2016 - 06:39 PM.

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Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who doesn't need to be ashamed, correctly teaching the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (NIV)

Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone. Col 4:6 (NIV)

 


#52
kerwin

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Yea... Sure. In the same way that I consider a song to be a singer.

In other words.... No.

 

That is an apples to oranges comparison as a song does not teach and a preacher does not speak just the words of Scripture.  

 

Your conclusion violates the principle that Scripture is the supreme authority of matters of doctrine and practices.


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#53
justaname

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You're either getting lazy here or realize you can't address each point so you shove it all together in 1 Post and start repeating herself rather than address each point that I brought up. if you're not interested in pursuing this then just let me know but if you are then please address each point I brought up just as I did for your posts.

My response was adequate, and easily understandable. I addressed your issue with explicit statements. Because you choose to subvert these explicit statements to justify your position is not something that is refutable. In other words I can show you the truth all day long, but it takes God to open your eyes to it. Until then you will continue to suppress it.

Let me just repeat something you refused to comment on.

You agree God grants we believe. (Philippians 1:29)

There is no denying God grants who comes to Jesus. (John 6:65)

My case is made, God does interfere with free will.

So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. - Romans 9:16
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You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

#54
FHII

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That is an apples to oranges comparison as a song does not teach and a preacher does not speak just the words of Scripture.  

 

Your conclusion violates the principle that Scripture is the supreme authority of matters of doctrine and practices.

 

No, it doesn't.  Read the Chapter.


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#55
StanJ

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My response was adequate, and easily understandable. I addressed your issue with explicit statements. Because you choose to subvert these explicit statements to justify your position is not something that is refutable. In other words I can show you the truth all day long, but it takes God to open your eyes to it. Until then you will continue to suppress it.
Let me just repeat something you refused to comment on.
You agree God grants we believe. (Philippians 1:29)
There is no denying God grants who comes to Jesus. (John 6:65)
My case is made, God does interfere with free will.
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. - Romans 9:16

Mighty supercilious of you, but as far as I am concerned it was not adequate.
You didn't address my concerns, you deny them and reiterated what you always do without scriptural proof.
What you perceive as subversion is simply refutation that you also refuse to admit to. Your modus operandi it's blatantly obvious.
As far as Philippians 1:29 is concerned, the Greek word used for granted is; χαρίζομαι (charizomai), and connotes a gratifying of a deep-seated desire, which in this case was believing in Jesus Christ. The desire is pre-existing and is granted because God opened up the New Covenant to gentiles. You see when you approach the word of God using the word of God and not a doctrinal predisposition, you will actually understand the word of God and it will make sense every single time, not just on a few separate occasions that you manage to pull up.
In the case of John 6:65, the Greek word used for granted is; δίδωμι (didōmi), and connotes exactly the same expression found just previously and John 6:44 which contrary to how you probably believe does not mean drag, but simply to woo a person to who Christ is in reality. We still have to choose and decide to accept or reject him.
As far as Romans 9:16 is concerned, again you pull this verse out of the entire context of this chapter to eisegetically use it to support your erroneous view of God's interference rather than exegetically use it to show that Paul is talking about why God chose to extend the New Covenant to gentiles because of the unbelief of the Jews. You cannot make something supercede the context it exists in, which apparently you've never learned from any basic course on grammar or biblical hermeneutics.
John 7:17
Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
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Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who doesn't need to be ashamed, correctly teaching the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (NIV)

Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone. Col 4:6 (NIV)

 


#56
kerwin

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No, it doesn't.  Read the Chapter.

 

I have read the chapter as well as where Paul states "follow me as I follow the Lord" (1 Corinthians 11:1) and "if we or an angel out of heaven should preach a gospel to you contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let him be accursed". (Galatians 1:8)

 

A teaching is a teaching whether it is spoken or written.

 

I trust the words of Scripture more than those of any man; unless the words of that human are in agreement with Scripture.


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#57
justaname

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Mighty supercilious of you, but as far as I am concerned it was not adequate.
You didn't address my concerns, you deny them and reiterated what you always do without scriptural proof.
What you perceive as subversion is simply refutation that you also refuse to admit to. Your modus operandi it's blatantly obvious.
As far as Philippians 1:29 is concerned, the Greek word used for granted is; χαρίζομαι (charizomai), and connotes a gratifying of a deep-seated desire, which in this case was believing in Jesus Christ. The desire is pre-existing and is granted because God opened up the New Covenant to gentiles. You see when you approach the word of God using the word of God and not a doctrinal predisposition, you will actually understand the word of God and it will make sense every single time, not just on a few separate occasions that you manage to pull up.
In the case of John 6:65, the Greek word used for granted is; δίδωμι (didōmi), and connotes exactly the same expression found just previously and John 6:44 which contrary to how you probably believe does not mean drag, but simply to woo a person to who Christ is in reality. We still have to choose and decide to accept or reject him.
As far as Romans 9:16 is concerned, again you pull this verse out of the entire context of this chapter to eisegetically use it to support your erroneous view of God's interference rather than exegetically use it to show that Paul is talking about why God chose to extend the New Covenant to gentiles because of the unbelief of the Jews. You cannot make something supercede the context it exists in, which apparently you've never learned from any basic course on grammar or biblical hermeneutics.
John 7:17
Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

 

I am uncertain where you are gathering your information and your inference in regards to the Greek.  Yet you are wrong.

 

First the Philippians passage:

Taken from BDAG 3rd edition.  This is the most trusted lexicon within academia concerning Biblical Greek.

 

χαρίζομαι : to give freely as a favor, give graciously

 

This will explain a bit for you concerning how and where the word is used:

 

χαρίζομαι (‘give freely or graciously as a favour’) occurs within the NT only in Paul (sixteen times) and Luke (Gospel three times, Acts four times). In Paul’s letters the word is employed chiefly in connection with the decisive, gracious gift of God. Rom. 8:32 speaks of the all-embracing bounty of God in giving his Son (cf. Jn. 3:16), while 1 Cor. 2:12 refers to the Spirit of God leading us to an understanding of all that he has freely bestowed on us. Already under the old covenant the free gift of God was linked with his covenant promise and not with the law (Gal. 3:18). At Phm. 22 the apostle tells his friend Philemon that he hopes to come in person and visit him; if this occurs it will be because the prayers of his Christian friends have been graciously answered by God. Here, too, at Phil. 1:29 the passive voice is again used to signify that the gracious activity was God’s. The aorist tense points to the original bestowal of the gift,94 which occurred when they first believed, while the emphatically placed ὑμῖν corresponds with the previous ὑμῶν.

 

 Peter Thomas O’Brien, The Epistle to the Philippians: A Commentary on the Greek Text, New International Greek Testament Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1991), 158–159.

 

O'Brien later states.

Here at Phil. 1:29 the present tense connotes an ongoing relationship of trust in him. Since it parallels the present tense of πάσχειν there is probably the added thought that God has graciously given to the Philippians the privilege of believing (or of continuing to believe) in his Son even while suffering and undergoing persecution. That was a blessing indeed.

 

Philippians 1:29 has nothing to do with opening the New Covenant up to the Gentiles unless we all don your eisegetical glasses.

 

 
 
The John 6:65 passage uses δίδωμι.  This particular word is more flexible in meaning yet in this context it takes on the meaning: "to be granted."
 
Given by Kostenberger:
Jesus’ focus now turns from the wider circle of his followers to the Twelve. In particular, he notes that one of them (identified specifically in 6:71 as Judas) would betray him. He now explains that this is the actual point of reference of his statement in 6:44 (reiterated in 6:65): in the final analysis, even faith (or lack thereof!) is sovereignly assigned by God.
 

 Andreas J. Köstenberger, John, Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic, 2004), 220.

 
DA Carson in regards to this verse:
However much men and women are commanded to believe, and are held accountable for their unbelief, genuine coming to faith is never finally a matter of autonomous human decision. The remaining verses in the chapter show this is true even of the Twelve.

 D. A. Carson, The Gospel according to John, The Pillar New Testament Commentary (Leicester, England; Grand Rapids, MI: Inter-Varsity Press; W.B. Eerdmans, 1991), 302–303.

 
Now again to talk about the Romans 9:16 passage.  Please explain how man's will or exertion has anything to do with what people group someone is born into?  Where does this passage fit within the context you are forcing it into?  There is no correlation.  This is exactly why the Holy Spirit added to this section of Scripture to Scripture.  The argument Paul and the Holy Spirit are making is about God's Sovereign Election in regards to individuals within all nations.
 
Schreiner states regarding this text:
 

Human works were excluded previously as the basis on which God elects and calls (vv. 11–12). Verse 16 restates and clarifies this theme by indicating that human choice and effort are not the basis on which God’s merciful promise is received. This verse excludes in the clearest possible terms the notion that free will is the fundamental factor in divine election (cf. Müller 1964: 80–81).  The salvation of any, even of the Jewish remnant, is due to the mercy of God. Käsemann (1980: 267–68; cf. Müller 1964: 83–89; Stuhlmacher 1971: 558, 564) is on target in insisting that Paul’s doctrine of predestination is linked with his gospel of justification by faith.

 

 Thomas R. Schreiner, Romans, vol. 6, Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1998), 508.

 
Mounce states:
 
The point is that God’s favors are not determined by anyone or anything outside of himself. God’s purpose in election rests not upon human will (thelō in v. 16 can express desire or purpose) or effort (a participle from trechō, “run”) but upon divine mercy. Although God elects with sovereign freedom, it does not follow that Israel had nothing to do with their rejection. Later in the chapter we will learn that Israel failed to attain a right standing with God because they pursued it on the basis of works (vv. 30–32). The sovereignty of God does not set aside human responsibility.
 

 Robert H. Mounce, Romans, vol. 27, The New American Commentary (Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 1995), 199–200.

 
I and every one of these commentators are acutely aware of context and it's vital role in exegesis.  We are not viewing the text seeking to maintain a doctrine as you falsely accuse.  We simply view and interpret the text for what it is saying within it's context.

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You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

#58
FHII

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I have read the chapter as well as where Paul states "follow me as I follow the Lord" (1 Corinthians 11:1) and "if we or an angel out of heaven should preach a gospel to you contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let him be accursed". (Galatians 1:8)

A teaching is a teaching whether it is spoken or written.

I trust the words of Scripture more than those of any man; unless the words of that human are in agreement with Scripture.


When God appoints a preacher he IS going to preach the Word. Its how we know if he is a Man Of God.
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#59
StanJ

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I am uncertain where you are gathering your information and your inference in regards to the Greek. Yet you are wrong.

First the Philippians passage:
Taken from BDAG 3rd edition. This is the most trusted lexicon within academia concerning Biblical Greek.

χαρίζομαι : to give freely as a favor, give graciously

This will explain a bit for you concerning how and where the word is used:

χαρίζομαι (‘give freely or graciously as a favour’) occurs within the NT only in Paul (sixteen times) and Luke (Gospel three times, Acts four times). In Paul’s letters the word is employed chiefly in connection with the decisive, gracious gift of God. Rom. 8:32 speaks of the all-embracing bounty of God in giving his Son (cf. Jn. 3:16), while 1 Cor. 2:12 refers to the Spirit of God leading us to an understanding of all that he has freely bestowed on us. Already under the old covenant the free gift of God was linked with his covenant promise and not with the law (Gal. 3:18). At Phm. 22 the apostle tells his friend Philemon that he hopes to come in person and visit him; if this occurs it will be because the prayers of his Christian friends have been graciously answered by God. Here, too, at Phil. 1:29 the passive voice is again used to signify that the gracious activity was God’s. The aorist tense points to the original bestowal of the gift,94 which occurred when they first believed, while the emphatically placed ὑμῖν corresponds with the previous ὑμῶν.

Peter Thomas O’Brien, The Epistle to the Philippians: A Commentary on the Greek Text, New International Greek Testament Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1991), 158–159.

O'Brien later states.
Here at Phil. 1:29 the present tense connotes an ongoing relationship of trust in him. Since it parallels the present tense of πάσχειν there is probably the added thought that God has graciously given to the Philippians the privilege of believing (or of continuing to believe) in his Son even while suffering and undergoing persecution. That was a blessing indeed.

Philippians 1:29 has nothing to do with opening the New Covenant up to the Gentiles unless we all don your eisegetical glasses.



The John 6:65 passage uses δίδωμι. This particular word is more flexible in meaning yet in this context it takes on the meaning: "to be granted."

Given by Kostenberger:
Jesus’ focus now turns from the wider circle of his followers to the Twelve. In particular, he notes that one of them (identified specifically in 6:71 as Judas) would betray him. He now explains that this is the actual point of reference of his statement in 6:44 (reiterated in 6:65): in the final analysis, even faith (or lack thereof!) is sovereignly assigned by God.

Andreas J. Köstenberger, John, Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic, 2004), 220.

DA Carson in regards to this verse:
However much men and women are commanded to believe, and are held accountable for their unbelief, genuine coming to faith is never finally a matter of autonomous human decision. The remaining verses in the chapter show this is true even of the Twelve.
D. A. Carson, The Gospel according to John, The Pillar New Testament Commentary (Leicester, England; Grand Rapids, MI: Inter-Varsity Press; W.B. Eerdmans, 1991), 302–303.

Now again to talk about the Romans 9:16 passage. Please explain how man's will or exertion has anything to do with what people group someone is born into? Where does this passage fit within the context you are forcing it into? There is no correlation. This is exactly why the Holy Spirit added to this section of Scripture to Scripture. The argument Paul and the Holy Spirit are making is about God's Sovereign Election in regards to individuals within all nations.

Schreiner states regarding this text:

Human works were excluded previously as the basis on which God elects and calls (vv. 11–12). Verse 16 restates and clarifies this theme by indicating that human choice and effort are not the basis on which God’s merciful promise is received. This verse excludes in the clearest possible terms the notion that free will is the fundamental factor in divine election (cf. Müller 1964: 80–81). The salvation of any, even of the Jewish remnant, is due to the mercy of God. Käsemann (1980: 267–68; cf. Müller 1964: 83–89; Stuhlmacher 1971: 558, 564) is on target in insisting that Paul’s doctrine of predestination is linked with his gospel of justification by faith.

Thomas R. Schreiner, Romans, vol. 6, Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1998), 508.

Mounce states:

The point is that God’s favors are not determined by anyone or anything outside of himself. God’s purpose in election rests not upon human will (thelō in v. 16 can express desire or purpose) or effort (a participle from trechō, “run”) but upon divine mercy. Although God elects with sovereign freedom, it does not follow that Israel had nothing to do with their rejection. Later in the chapter we will learn that Israel failed to attain a right standing with God because they pursued it on the basis of works (vv. 30–32). The sovereignty of God does not set aside human responsibility.

Robert H. Mounce, Romans, vol. 27, The New American Commentary (Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 1995), 199–200.

I and every one of these commentators are acutely aware of context and it's vital role in exegesis. We are not viewing the text seeking to maintain a doctrine as you falsely accuse. We simply view and interpret the text for what it is saying within it's context.

All you've basically done here is excerpt the connotations you want to run with to support your point of view and as such they don't really mean anything other than you refuse to see what you are so clearly shown.
The best thing to do when you want to cite a scholar is to put a link to the commentary so people can read it in its full context and not trust you to point out everything that is pertinent.
In my opinion, the best thing to do when defending your doctrine is to know it and be able to exegete it, not quote other exegetes who happen to be Calvinists.

Edited by StanJ, 03 November 2016 - 06:48 PM.

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Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who doesn't need to be ashamed, correctly teaching the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (NIV)

Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone. Col 4:6 (NIV)

 


#60
Dan57

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I don't believe God predetermines everything.. If that were so, why are we here? While God does predestine some people for a specific purpose, we all have free will and make our own choices. God surely knows the beginning from the end, but he doesn't know which souls will believe, because belief is a choice.


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