Jump to content

Primary: Sky Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
Secondary: Sky Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
Pattern: Blank Waves Squares Notes Sharp Wood Rockface Leather Honey Vertical Triangles
Welcome to Christianity Board!
Christianity Board is a thriving forum community for registered members to share, pray, and respectfully debate about the faith in Jesus Christ. We are a nondenominational Christian forum in that we welcome the diversity of Christianity and we are not attached to any one denominational group. Join today for access to posting on the forums, chatting in the shoutbox, creating a blog, private messenger, profile features and so much more. May your time here be blessed in the name of Jesus!
Login to Account Create an Account
Photo

Predestination, All Things are Determined by God, Even the Outcome of a Roll of a Dice

- - - - -

  • Please log in to reply
158 replies to this topic

#61
Dcopymope

Dcopymope

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 221 posts

I don't believe God predetermines everything.. If that were so, why are we here? While God does predestine some people for a specific purpose, we all have free will and make our own choices. God surely knows the beginning from the end, but he doesn't know which souls will believe, because belief is a choice.


If God knows the future, then that has to include the choices you make regarding any and all things as well by default. He can't claim to know the beginning from the end of anything relevant to humanity if it doesn't include its choices. When Abraham pleaded with God to not reduce Sodom into fine dust if he could find one soul worth the dirt we stand on, its not like God didn't know Sodom's end from the beginning, God just decided to play along just to show Abrahams folly. He knew from the beginning that Abraham wouldn't find a soul because God see's all, including mans heart. He knew that nothing good can come out of allowing Sodom to continue to exist. If he had any doubts about it, he wouldn't have decided to burn it to crisp, but we all should know that "doubt" is not something thats apart of Gods character.
  • 0

#62
justaname

justaname

    Disciple

  • Moderator
  • 2,319 posts

All you've basically done here is excerpt the connotations you want to run with to support your point of view and as such they don't really mean anything other than you refuse to see what you are so clearly shown.
The best thing to do when you want to cite a scholar is to put a link to the commentary so people can read it in its full context and not trust you to point out everything that is pertinent.
In my opinion, the best thing to do when defending your doctrine is to know it and be able to exegete it, not quote other exegetes who happen to be Calvinists.

Actually the first thing I have done here was correct your misunderstanding of the Greek. Then I posted commentary by scholars that exegete the Scripture.

Notice here you are explaining how you "defend your doctrine". This is actually eisegesis and you are admitting you do this. You clearly state, "know it (your doctrine) and be able to exegete it." Parenthesis added by me. In other words you are admitting you are coming to the text with your doctrinal presuppositions already imposed on the text.

I don't do that, I exegete the text, the Scripture. Through proper exegesis I form doctrine. This is where you and I differ. I am not attempting to defend a doctrine. I am presenting what the Scripture clearly states, context taken into account. If I am convinced of something in Scripture that discredits my doctrine, my doctrine changes. Scripture is the ruling authority for me, not doctrine.
  • 0
You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

#63
StanJ

StanJ

    Lifelong student of God's Word.

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4,837 posts

Actually the first thing I have done here was correct your misunderstanding of the Greek. Then I posted commentary by scholars that exegete the Scripture.
Notice here you are explaining how you "defend your doctrine". This is actually eisegesis and you are admitting you do this. You clearly state, "know it (your doctrine) and be able to exegete it." Parenthesis added by me. In other words you are admitting you are coming to the text with your doctrinal presuppositions already imposed on the text.
I don't do that, I exegete the text, the Scripture. Through proper exegesis I form doctrine. This is where you and I differ. I am not attempting to defend a doctrine. I am presenting what the Scripture clearly states, context taken into account. If I am convinced of something in Scripture that discredits my doctrine, my doctrine changes. Scripture is the ruling authority for me, not doctrine.

The point is you have not exegeted the text, you've taken certain connotations out of the overall lexicon and use them to support your point of view. That is not the same thing. If you're going to be disingenuous in this regard then I can't really be bothered discussing anything with you because you are proving once again that you're not honest when you debate. This is not new, it's been happening ever since I got here. I'll let other people decide who is speaking the truth and who is not but as for this discussion I'm out. Everytime I take this up with you it ends up the same way so there really is no point in continuing this because you are definitely inculcated into your own distorted view of scripture.

Edited by StanJ, 04 November 2016 - 11:27 AM.

  • 0

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who doesn't need to be ashamed, correctly teaching the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15 (NIV)

Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone. Col 4:6 (NIV)

 


#64
justaname

justaname

    Disciple

  • Moderator
  • 2,319 posts

The point is you have not exegeted the text, you've taken certain connotations out of the overall lexicon and use them to support your point of view. That is not the same thing. If you're going to be disingenuous in this regard then I can't really be bothered discussing anything with you because you are proving once again that you're not honest when you debate. This is not new, it's been happening ever since I got here. I'll let other people decide who is speaking the truth and who is not but as for this discussion I'm out. Everytime I take this up with you it ends up the same way so there really is no point in continuing this because you are definitely inculcated into your own distorted view of scripture.


I agree. No point in continuing the discussion as you are not interested in what the Scriptures say, only in defending your doctrine.

Shalom.
  • 0
You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

#65
tom55

tom55

    Love your neighbor as yourself

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,142 posts

All things, whether good or evil, are determined by God to happen, hence,

I form the light and create darknessI bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7 [NIV])
The LORD kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up. (1 Samuel 2:6 [ESV])
For he wounds, but he also bandages; he strikes, but his hands also heal.  (Job 5:18 [NETBIBLE])
“‘See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand. (Deuteronomy 32:39 [ESV])

For just as a man moves his own arm by his own mere will, so does God move even the smallest speck of dust, even just one atom, by his own mere will, which is why even the outcome of the roll of a dice is determined by God,

We may throw the dice, but the LORD determines how they fall. (Proverbs 16:33 [NLT])

Hence why the apostles cast lots to choose who the twelfth apostle would be to replace Judas, knowing that nothing occurs by chance, but by what God determines to be,

Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles. (Acts 1:26 [NIV])

Even the rising of the entire sun happens because God moves the sun to rise,

that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. (Matthew 5:45 [NIV])

And so, absolutely nothing happens outside of what God has determined by his will. Even the formation of a baby in the womb is caused by the will of God,

For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. (Psalm 139:13 [NIV])

And God has even numbered the amount of hairs on your head, because just as God has caused the formation of a baby in the womb by his mere will, so in likewise manner has God caused the very hairs on your head to grow to thus know how many hairs you have,

Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. (Luke 12:7 [NIV])

As such, it is in God that all live, exist, and even move,

for “‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said, “‘For we are indeed his offspring.’ (Acts 17:28 [ESV])

Even every decision of man is determined by God, as he is the one that controls the hearts of men, whether he draws them forth towards him, or whether he pushes them away from him, hence,

So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen. (Romans 9:18 [NLT])
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. (John 6:44 [NIV])
The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will. (Proverbs 21:1 [ESV])
He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” (John 12:40 [ESV])

Even all who have disease are determined to be so by God,

Then the LORD said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD? (Exodus 4:11 [ESV])

Even sinners are determined by God to be sinners,

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. (Proverbs 16:4 [KJV])

As such, the purpose God has appointed sinners to exist is so that he may demonstrate his wrath and make known his power and judgments,

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (Romans 9:22 [ESV])

And just as God hardens the hearts of man, so did he also harden the heart of Pharaoh, so that because of Pharaoh's refusal to let the sons of Israel go, God may then demonstrate his power by bringing forth powerful plagues against Egypt,

"But I will harden Pharaoh's heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 7:3 [NASB])
For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (Romans 9:17 [NIV])

In which case God also hardens the hearts of man to this day, so that because of all those whom he has hardened on the earth, he may one day demonstrate his great power upon the entire earth by bringing forth great and powerful judgments, to even cause the entire earth to quake at his presence,

Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the LORD Almighty, in the day of his burning anger. (Isaiah 13:13 [NIV])
Every valley shall be raised up, every mountain and hill made low; the rough ground shall become level, the rugged places a plain. And the glory of the LORD will be revealed, and all people will see it together. For the mouth of the LORD has spoken." (Isaiah 40:4-5 [NIV])

Along with many other judgments to demonstrate his great power, which will result in the reduction of all the wicked to mere ashes,

Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act," says the LORD Almighty. (Malachi 4:3 [NIV])

And on the other hand, he has also appointed sinners to exist so that he may demonstrate his mercy,

For God has bound up all in disobedience, that He may show mercy to all. (Romans 11:32 [BLB])
And what if he is willing to make known the wealth of his glory on the objects of mercy that he has prepared beforehand for glory-- (Romans 9:23 [NETBIBLE])
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (Romans 9:15 [NIV])
So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen. (Romans 9:18 [NLT])

And also demonstrate his love,

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8 [NIV])

Even those who God has appointed to be blind, or mute, or deaf, are appointed to be so that God may demonstrate his power to heal,

His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. (John 9:2-3 [NIV])

And so, whoever God demonstrates his mercy and love to is whoever he chooses to be his,

Who accuses against the chosen of God? God is the one justifying. (Romans 8:33 [ABP])
Paul, a bondman of God, and apostle of Jesus Christ, for belief of
the chosen of God, and full knowledge of truth, of the one according to piety; (Titus 1:1 [ABP])
But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:13 [ESV])

And all who are chosen by God have also been predestined to be his from before the foundation of the world,

even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love (Ephesians 1:4 [ESV])
 
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Romans 8:30 [NIV])
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. (Romans 8:29 [NIV])

And just as God has chosen who will be his, he has also chosen who will not be his, which is why it is not whether a man runs or not that determines if he will be saved, but it is whomever God chooses to show mercy to,

So then it is not of the one wanting, nor of the one running, but of the showing mercy of God. (Romans 9:16 [ABP])

And so, whoever comes to repentance does so because of the kindness of God, since God is the one who draws men to him,

Or do you disregard the riches of His kindness, tolerance, and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you to repentance? (Romans 2:4 [BSB])

This is also why the kingdom given to the chosen, or even the lake of fire where the wicked are thrown into, are all prepared by God, because what God has brought forth into existence is also staged and prepared for future times he has appointed,

And because God determines everything to be is why God has also staged and prepared what will come to be,

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. (Matthew 25:34 [NIV])
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (Matthew 25:41 [NIV])
but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant.These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared." (Mark 10:40 [NIV])

The idea that a person can be predestined to come to God yet not be predestined to stay the course  sounds strange to me

He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13].

 

Since we are all predestined why even preach about salvation or the word of God? It doesn't matter if we hear it or not since we are predestined.

 

Since I was predestined to write this and disagree with you and you are predestined to reject anything that I say to disprove your theory it seems we are wasting our time. :unsure:


  • 0

#66
the_sign

the_sign

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 34 posts

We may throw the dice, but the LORD determines how they fall. (Proverbs 16:33 [NLT])

Hence why the apostles cast lots to choose who the twelfth apostle would be to replace Judas, knowing that nothing occurs by chance, but by what God determines to be,

Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles. (Acts 1:26 [NIV])

Even the rising of the entire sun happens because God moves the sun to rise,

 

***

Reply :

 

That determination by the LORD in church election was in some way, shape, and/or form slowly dissolved to direct appointment as regards the College of Cardinals.

 

We see the same thing in a popular vote election win by a candidate, yet the winner is made a loser, even though we are told that our vote counts.

 

But the part about the rising of the entire sun shows some hope in that the fixation of the time after the Three Days of Darkness shall always be with us.


Edited by the_sign, 14 November 2016 - 02:09 PM.

  • 0

#67
cga

cga

    Advanced Member

  • Account Retired
  • PipPipPip
  • 98 posts

The idea that a person can be predestined to come to God yet not be predestined to stay the course  sounds strange to me
He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13].
 
Since we are all predestined why even preach about salvation or the word of God? It doesn't matter if we hear it or not since we are predestined.
 
Since I was predestined to write this and disagree with you and you are predestined to reject anything that I say to disprove your theory it seems we are wasting our time. :unsure:


Because in our own perception, everything.... actions, thoughts, and outside circumstances must play out. When we watch a movie, is the outcome of the movie not already determined? Has the script not already been written? Yet the movie must play out, it's plot must develop, and its actors must act, as we watch it play out, until we reach it reaches its final conclusion. Those who did evil, who were scripted to do so, will be punished. Those who did good, who were also scripted to do so, will be rewarded. Predestination does not nullify our need to act, it establishes that whatever acts we did were done as a result of a higher script determined upon us. And based on these actions scripted upon us, we will have either of two outcomes in the finality of this heaven and earth, life or death, in which case those who live will come to live in an entirely new script in a new heaven and new earth.

Edited by cga, 15 November 2016 - 09:45 AM.

  • 0

#68
tom55

tom55

    Love your neighbor as yourself

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,142 posts

Because in our own perception, everything.... actions, thoughts, and outside circumstances must play out. When we watch a movie, is the outcome of the movie not already determined? Has the script not already been written? Yet the movie must play out, it's plot must develop, and its actors must act, as we watch it play out, until we reach it reaches its final conclusion. Those who did evil, who were scripted to do so, will be punished. Those who did good, who were also scripted to do so, will be rewarded. Predestination does not nullify our need to act, it establishes that whatever acts we did were done as a result of a higher script determined upon us. And based on these actions scripted upon us, we will have either of two outcomes in the finality of this heaven and earth, life or death, in which case those who live will come to live in an entirely new script in a new heaven and new earth.

 Are you saying God wrote a script and now he is just sitting back and watching us all act out that script? If so, why did he send his Son to earth to die for our salvation? We choose Him or we choose eternal damnation. We have free will.  Your movie script example makes no sense.

 

I don't understand how "those who did evil...were scripted to do so" and those "who did good...were scripted to do so" but predestination does not nullify our need to act? If I am predestined to be evil it doesn't matter HOW I act....I had no choice. If I am predestined to do good it doesn't matter how I act...I had no choice. You are saying I have no free will. I am a puppet and God is the puppet master?

 

You said, "Predestination does not nullify our need to act". If we are scripted to act then our decision not to act is nullified by the script. We can't go off script which means we have no free will. We are just following lines on a script and we do not have the free will to change those lines. Do you think we have no free will??

 

Scripture says The Lord does not want anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance (2Peter 3:9). If I am predestined to perish then why would Jesus have hope that that I would repent? Did God not let Jesus in on his secret predestination decision? Or was Jesus predestined to hope in vain?

 

Jesus was sent to earth to save me but in reality He can't save me if I am already predestined by God to go to Hell?


  • 0

#69
cga

cga

    Advanced Member

  • Account Retired
  • PipPipPip
  • 98 posts

 Are you saying God wrote a script and now he is just sitting back and watching us all act out that script? If so, why did he send his Son to earth to die for our salvation? We choose Him or we choose eternal damnation. We have free will.  Your movie script example makes no sense.

 

I don't understand how "those who did evil...were scripted to do so" and those "who did good...were scripted to do so" but predestination does not nullify our need to act? If I am predestined to be evil it doesn't matter HOW I act....I had no choice. If I am predestined to do good it doesn't matter how I act...I had no choice. You are saying I have no free will. I am a puppet and God is the puppet master?

 

You said, "Predestination does not nullify our need to act". If we are scripted to act then our decision not to act is nullified by the script. We can't go off script which means we have no free will. We are just following lines on a script and we do not have the free will to change those lines. Do you think we have no free will??

 

Scripture says The Lord does not want anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance (2Peter 3:9). If I am predestined to perish then why would Jesus have hope that that I would repent? Did God not let Jesus in on his secret predestination decision? Or was Jesus predestined to hope in vain?

 

Jesus was sent to earth to save me but in reality He can't save me if I am already predestined by God to go to Hell?

God chose to send his son because that is part of the script, so that in all the wickedness God has appointed to exist, he may express his immense mercy upon the entire earth, that even in spite of our evil, he sent forth his son to die for us while still being sinners. Its not just an expression of mercy, but an expression of ultimate love for those that will end up being saved. The entire script is a masterpiece, all for the glory of God.

 

Yet the destiny of those whom he has not appointed to be saved will be destruction by a painful fire, not the "eternal torment" commonly taught in most churches. For there would be no purpose to eternally torture those whom God has already determined will be cast into the fiery lake. Their very purpose of existence is merely to demonstrate that God will punish those who do evil and reject him, whereas those whom he has chosen will carry on living always in the enjoyment of the goodness of God.

 

Also, have you not read what Jesus said, "many are called, but few are chosen"? Who do you suppose chooses, Jesus who wills for the entire world to be saved, or the Father, the one who actually brings forth the increase?

 

Also, free will is an illusion. What we do, and what our will is, are all subject to what God has appointed and willed. This is no different than me as a programmer telling a computer what to do and how to do. We are all programmed and wired to do what we are appointed to do. Call it puppets, call it slaves, whatever description suits your fancy, this is how it is. This is why the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Understand this fearful thing, and you will begin to become wise. Reject it, and you will find yourself in darkened understanding as most are, wondering "why this" and "why that" never able to understand.


Edited by cga, 15 November 2016 - 11:41 AM.

  • 0

#70
tom55

tom55

    Love your neighbor as yourself

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,142 posts

God chose to send his son because that is part of the script, so that in all the wickedness God has appointed to exist, he may express his immense mercy upon the entire earth, that even in spite of our evil, he sent forth his son to die for us while still being sinners. Its not just an expression of mercy, but an expression of ultimate love for those that will end up being saved. The entire script is a masterpiece, all for the glory of God.

 

Yet the destiny of those whom he has not appointed to be saved will be destruction by a painful fire, not the "eternal torment" commonly taught in most churches. For there would be no purpose to eternally torture those whom God has already determined will be cast into the fiery lake. Their very purpose of existence is merely to demonstrate that God will punish those who do evil and reject him, whereas those whom he has chosen will carry on living always in the enjoyment of the goodness of God.

 

Also, have you not read what Jesus said, "many are called, but few are chosen"? Who do you suppose chooses, Jesus who wills for the entire world to be saved, or the Father, the one who actually brings forth the increase?

 

Also, free will is an illusion. What we do, and what our will is, are all subject to what God has appointed and willed. This is no different than me as a programmer telling a computer what to do and how to do. We are all programmed and wired to do what we are appointed to do. Call it puppets, call it slaves, whatever description suits your fancy, this is how it is. This is why the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Understand this fearful thing, and you will begin to become wise. Reject it, and you will find yourself in darkened understanding as most are, wondering "why this" and "why that" never able to understand.

Why would His Son need to die for us if we are already predestined? Wouldn't Jesus life and death be a waste if time if we are predestined to do what God wants us to do?

 

Did God say 'I am going to send you my Son and if you obey Him you will have eternal salvation....but really you have no choice to obey him or not because I have already predestined you to this script and your really going to do what I have written in this script. So I am sending my Son as kind of like a joke...you can follow him but it won't really matter. I have already decided if your going to hell or not.....??????'

 

 Am I now and was Jesus then not just a robot acting out Gods script?

 

From whom do you get this theory? Did you come up with this on your own or are you reading someone else's writings?


Edited by tom55, 15 November 2016 - 11:57 AM.

  • 0

#71
cga

cga

    Advanced Member

  • Account Retired
  • PipPipPip
  • 98 posts

Why would His Son need to die for us if we are already predestined? Wouldn't Jesus life and death be a waste if time if we are predestined to do what God wants us to do?

 

Did God say 'I am going to send you my Son and if you obey Him you will have eternal salvation....but really you have no choice to obey him or not because I have already predestined you to this script and your really going to do what I have written in this script. So I am sending my Son as kind of like a joke...you can follow him but it won't really matter. I have already decided if your going to hell or not.....??????'

 

 Am I now and was Jesus then not just a robot acting out Gods script?

 

Because everything God predestines comes with an order of events, in relation to time. God appointed that through the death of Jesus Christ, those whom he has appointed to be his, may be saved. He could've appointed another way, its his creation he does whatever he wants, but this is the way that he chose, and in this way that he chose he also expresses his mercy and love.


  • 0

#72
tom55

tom55

    Love your neighbor as yourself

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,142 posts

Because in our own perception, everything.... actions, thoughts, and outside circumstances must play out. When we watch a movie, is the outcome of the movie not already determined? Has the script not already been written? Yet the movie must play out, it's plot must develop, and its actors must act, as we watch it play out, until we reach it reaches its final conclusion. Those who did evil, who were scripted to do so, will be punished. Those who did good, who were also scripted to do so, will be rewarded. Predestination does not nullify our need to act, it establishes that whatever acts we did were done as a result of a higher script determined upon us. And based on these actions scripted upon us, we will have either of two outcomes in the finality of this heaven and earth, life or death, in which case those who live will come to live in an entirely new script in a new heaven and new earth.

Just because God has FOREKNOWLEDGE of what we are going to do it does not mean He has PREDESTINED us to do it.

 

I have FOREKNOWLEDGE that if I put my hand in fire it will burn me. That does not mean I am PREDESTINED to do it.

 

If I put a bowl of dirt and a bowl of ice cream in front of you I already know which one you will choose to eat. You have a choice, but I know which one you will choose. That does not mean you are predestined to eat the ice cream just because I already know you will. You made the choice to eat it.

 

I also know since you are predestined to believe in predestination nothing I write that will change your mind and nothing you write will change my mind. So why are we discussing this?  <_<


  • 1

#73
cga

cga

    Advanced Member

  • Account Retired
  • PipPipPip
  • 98 posts

Just because God has FOREKNOWLEDGE of what we are going to do it does not mean He has PREDESTINED us to do it.

 

I have FOREKNOWLEDGE that if I put my hand in fire it will burn me. That does not mean I am PREDESTINED to do it.

 

If I put a bowl of dirt and a bowl of ice cream in front of you I already know which one you will choose to eat. You have a choice, but I know which one you will choose. That does not mean you are predestined to eat the ice cream just because I already know you will. You made the choice to eat it.

 

I also know since you are predestined to believe in predestination nothing I write that will change your mind and nothing you write will change my mind. So why are we discussing this?  <_<

 

God has both foreknowledge and has also predestined, hence,

 

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. (Romans 8:29 [NIV])

 

I think its about time you stopped rejecting the truth and accept it, and perhaps we can move on to higher level topics. You can't understand greater matters if you do not understand predestination.  :D 


  • 0

#74
Dcopymope

Dcopymope

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 221 posts

Just because God has FOREKNOWLEDGE of what we are going to do it does not mean He has PREDESTINED us to do it.

 

I have FOREKNOWLEDGE that if I put my hand in fire it will burn me. That does not mean I am PREDESTINED to do it.

 

If I put a bowl of dirt and a bowl of ice cream in front of you I already know which one you will choose to eat. You have a choice, but I know which one you will choose. That does not mean you are predestined to eat the ice cream just because I already know you will. You made the choice to eat it.

 

I also know since you are predestined to believe in predestination nothing I write that will change your mind and nothing you write will change my mind. So why are we discussing this?  <_<

 

This about sums up the OP's erroneous belief in predestination. I know that if I bash Trumps head in hard enough with a bat wrapped in barbed wire that its going to do some serious damage. Does that mean I'm predestined to do it? No, of course not


  • 0

#75
tom55

tom55

    Love your neighbor as yourself

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,142 posts

Because everything God predestines comes with an order of events, in relation to time. God appointed that through the death of Jesus Christ, those whom he has appointed to be his, may be saved. He could've appointed another way, its his creation he does whatever he wants, but this is the way that he chose, and in this way that he chose he also expresses his mercy and love.

How is he expressing mercy and love if he wrote a script that we have no choice but to follow that script? That's not mercy or love. That is a puppet and puppet master. There is no love or mercy involved.

 

If in His script I am destined to live a miserable life as a drunk, drug addicted child molester who ends up in prison and beaten by other inmates for being a child molester how is that God expressing love and mercy on me? Why was I destined to be beaten/addicted and you not?

 

Your theory causes more questions than answers.


  • 0

#76
cga

cga

    Advanced Member

  • Account Retired
  • PipPipPip
  • 98 posts

How is he expressing mercy and love if he wrote a script that we have no choice but to follow that script? That's not mercy or love. That is a puppet and puppet master. There is no love or mercy involved.

 

If in His script I am destined to live a miserable life as a drunk, drug addicted child molester who ends up in prison and beaten by other inmates for being a child molester how is that God expressing love and mercy on me? Why was I destined to be beaten/addicted and you not?

 

Your theory causes more questions than answers.

 

It is not my theory, it is scripture. I didn't just one day invent this doctrine, I learned about it in scripture, hence all the scriptures I posted in this study, which you seemed to ignore. Everything in creation expresses different characteristics of God, for example... the uncountable amount of stars express his incredible power, or the diversity of how much he has created to where thousands of years later after creation we are still discovering new species of animals expresses how much higher he is than we are, or the fact that the worst of sinners exist and are not struck dead immediately expresses his mercy, the fact that he sent his son to die for sinners expresses his mercy and also love. To say that what God has appointed to be expresses nothing, such as mercy or love, is foolish. 

 

Even so, not everyone is destined to receive mercy, only very few. Most of the world is appointed to be disobedient, and as such, most of the world will be burned up in a fiery end. I do not know what your destiny is, but I know that anyone that does not understand predestination and rejects it cannot be saved, for they lack full knowledge of God, and their rejection of this teaching is a demonstration of a hardening of their heart to reject this truth, which is caused by God. Anyone who ends up rejecting key doctrines such as this end up doing so because God has rejected them and disallowed them from coming to understanding. I do hope you do come to understand this truth and accept it buddy.


Edited by cga, 15 November 2016 - 12:37 PM.

  • 0

#77
tom55

tom55

    Love your neighbor as yourself

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,142 posts

God has both foreknowledge and has also predestined, hence,

 

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. (Romans 8:29 [NIV])

 

I think its about time you stopped rejecting the truth and accept it, and perhaps we can move on to higher level topics. You can't understand greater matters if you do not understand predestination.  :D 

   Paul states that we were “predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son.” When will that happen?

 

 Romans 8:28 gives us a reference to predestination to glory. We can also find the same usages in places where the term “predestination” does not appear but where synonyms, such as “choosing” and “election,” are used.

 

In 1 Peter 1:1-2, Peter writes to God’s elect who he says “have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood.” The time we began to be obedient to Jesus and were sprinkled by his blood was when we first became Christians, so here we have a reference to choosing or election to grace.

 

In Matthew 22:14, we have Jesus himself telling of the man who got into God’s eschatological banquet without a wedding garment and how he was rejected from God’s eschatological banquet on the grounds that “many are called, but few are chosen.” But since this points to God’s eschatological banquet at the end of time we know this is a reference to choosing and election to glory.

 

If I am predestined how can I "stop rejecting the truth and accept it"? How can I stop doing something I am predestined to do???

 

 

 

How do you know you are not predestined to help me "understand greater matters"? Are you choosing to not help me or are  you predestined to not help me?


  • 0

#78
cga

cga

    Advanced Member

  • Account Retired
  • PipPipPip
  • 98 posts

   Paul states that we were “predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son.” When will that happen?

 

 Romans 8:28 gives us a reference to predestination to glory. We can also find the same usages in places where the term “predestination” does not appear but where synonyms, such as “choosing” and “election,” are used.

 

In 1 Peter 1:1-2, Peter writes to God’s elect who he says “have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood.” The time we began to be obedient to Jesus and were sprinkled by his blood was when we first became Christians, so here we have a reference to choosing or election to grace.

 

In Matthew 22:14, we have Jesus himself telling of the man who got into God’s eschatological banquet without a wedding garment and how he was rejected from God’s eschatological banquet on the grounds that “many are called, but few are chosen.” But since this points to God’s eschatological banquet at the end of time we know this is a reference to choosing and election to glory.

 

If I am predestined how can I "stop rejecting the truth and accept it"? How can I stop doing something I am predestined to do???

 

 

 

How do you know you are not predestined to help me "understand greater matters"? Are you choosing to not help me or are  you predestined to not help me?

 

Did it not occur to you that you do not know what is predestined for you? When you watch a movie, even though it is scripted, do you know what will happen in every scene? No. The same with predestination, everything has already been decreed, and all we know to do is go right or go left, yet at the outcome of all things, what we ended up choosing and doing is what was scripted. Scripture proves this, look at all the scriptures I quoted. How many more times do I need to repeat myself for you to understand oh stubborn person?


  • 0

#79
tom55

tom55

    Love your neighbor as yourself

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,142 posts

It is not my theory, it is scripture. I didn't just one day invent this doctrine, I learned about it in scripture, hence all the scriptures I posted in this study, which you seemed to ignore. Everything in creation expresses different characteristics of God, for example... the uncountable amount of stars express his incredible power, or the diversity of how much he has created to where thousands of years later after creation we are still discovering new species of animals expresses how much higher he is than we are, or the fact that the worst of sinners exist and are not struck dead immediately expresses his mercy, the fact that he sent his son to die for sinners expresses his mercy and also love. To say that what God has appointed to be expresses nothing, such as mercy or love, is foolish. 

 

Even so, not everyone is destined to receive mercy, only very few. Most of the world is appointed to be disobedient, and as such, most of the world will be burned up in a fiery end. I do not know what your destiny is, but I know that anyone that does not understand predestination and rejects it cannot be saved, for they lack full knowledge of God, and their rejection of this teaching is a demonstration of a hardening of their heart to reject this truth, which is caused by God. Anyone who ends up rejecting key doctrines such as this end up doing so because God has rejected them and disallowed them from coming to understanding. I do hope you do come to understand this truth and accept it buddy.

So this exegesis of scripture about predestination has never happened before you did it? You came up with this on your own?

 

If we are predestined to reject predestination then is it really our fault? Isn't it Gods fault for writing the script that way?

 

 How can I harden my heart and reject His truth if I am predestined to harden my heart and reject my truth?

 

You make it sound like I have a choice to 'REJECT his teaching' but in reality (according to your theory)  I don't have a choice because I am predestined to reject it. How can I reject something if I have no choice in accepting it?


  • 0

#80
tom55

tom55

    Love your neighbor as yourself

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,142 posts

Did it not occur to you that you do not know what is predestined for you? When you watch a movie, even though it is scripted, do you know what will happen in every scene? No. The same with predestination, everything has already been decreed, and all we know to do is go right or go left, yet at the outcome of all things, what we ended up choosing and doing is what was scripted. Scripture proves this, look at all the scriptures I quoted. How many more times do I need to repeat myself for you to understand oh stubborn person?

If I am predestined how can I "stop rejecting the truth and accept it"? How can I stop doing something I am predestined to do???

 

What we ended up choosing and doing is what was scripted by God? If it was scripted by God I did not choose...God did!!


  • 0

#81
cga

cga

    Advanced Member

  • Account Retired
  • PipPipPip
  • 98 posts

So this exegesis of scripture about predestination has never happened before you did it? You came up with this on your own?

 

If we are predestined to reject predestination then is it really our fault? Isn't it Gods fault for writing the script that way?

 

 How can I harden my heart and reject His truth if I am predestined to harden my heart and reject my truth?

 

You make it sound like I have a choice to 'REJECT his teaching' but in reality (according to your theory)  I don't have a choice because I am predestined to reject it. How can I reject something if I have no choice in accepting it?

 

You pose the very same questions that Paul addresses,

 

One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?" But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" (Romans 9:19-20)

 

And God is the one who hardens the hearts, to prevent those whom he has not chosen to receive salvation,

 

He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'" (Mark 4:11-12)

 

All I can say is I pity you if you still cannot come to understanding. I have given you all the scriptures in this study, I hope you come to understanding, otherwise I have nothing further to say to you.


  • 0

#82
Dcopymope

Dcopymope

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 221 posts


How is he expressing mercy and love if he wrote a script that we have no choice but to follow that script? That's not mercy or love. That is a puppet and puppet master. There is no love or mercy involved.

 

If in His script I am destined to live a miserable life as a drunk, drug addicted child molester who ends up in prison and beaten by other inmates for being a child molester how is that God expressing love and mercy on me? Why was I destined to be beaten/addicted and you not?

 

Your theory causes more questions than answers.

 

 



It is not my theory, it is scripture. I didn't just one day invent this doctrine, I learned about it in scripture, hence all the scriptures I posted in this study, which you seemed to ignore. Everything in creation expresses different characteristics of God, for example... the uncountable amount of stars express his incredible power, or the diversity of how much he has created to where thousands of years later after creation we are still discovering new species of animals expresses how much higher he is than we are, or the fact that the worst of sinners exist and are not struck dead immediately expresses his mercy, the fact that he sent his son to die for sinners expresses his mercy and also love. To say that what God has appointed to be expresses nothing, such as mercy or love, is foolish. 

 

Even so, not everyone is destined to receive mercy, only very few. Most of the world is appointed to be disobedient, and as such, most of the world will be burned up in a fiery end. I do not know what your destiny is, but I know that anyone that does not understand predestination and rejects it cannot be saved, for they lack full knowledge of God, and their rejection of this teaching is a demonstration of a hardening of their heart to reject this truth, which is caused by God. Anyone who ends up rejecting key doctrines such as this end up doing so because God has rejected them and disallowed them from coming to understanding. I do hope you do come to understand this truth and accept it buddy.

 

(John 3:16-17) "¶ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.  {17} For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

 

(2 Peter 3:8-9) "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.  {9} The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

 

 

The two Scriptures above contradicts your claim that only a few were 'predestined' to salvation. According to your interpretation, these two scriptures says that whosoever God predestined to believe in him shall not perish but have everlasting life, but it doesn't say anything of the kind, because its not God's will that any should perish. 


  • 0

#83
cga

cga

    Advanced Member

  • Account Retired
  • PipPipPip
  • 98 posts

The two Scriptures above contradicts your claim that only a few were 'predestined' to salvation. According to your interpretation, these two scriptures says that whosoever God predestined to believe in him shall not perish but have everlasting life, but it doesn't say anything of the kind, because its not God's will that any should perish. 

 

It is the Lord's will, Jesus Christ, that none should perish. But it is God's will to show mercy to some, and to punish others, hence,

 

What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- (Romans 9:22-23)


  • 0

#84
tom55

tom55

    Love your neighbor as yourself

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,142 posts

Actually the first thing I have done here was correct your misunderstanding of the Greek. Then I posted commentary by scholars that exegete the Scripture.

Notice here you are explaining how you "defend your doctrine". This is actually eisegesis and you are admitting you do this. You clearly state, "know it (your doctrine) and be able to exegete it." Parenthesis added by me. In other words you are admitting you are coming to the text with your doctrinal presuppositions already imposed on the text.

I don't do that, I exegete the text, the Scripture. Through proper exegesis I form doctrine. This is where you and I differ. I am not attempting to defend a doctrine. I am presenting what the Scripture clearly states, context taken into account. If I am convinced of something in Scripture that discredits my doctrine, my doctrine changes. Scripture is the ruling authority for me, not doctrine.

When you exegete the Scripture and thru "proper" exegesis you form doctrine and then later you are convinced that something in Scripture discredits your own doctrine so you then change your doctrine how can you ever know for sure if you have finally found  the truth of Scripture or the right doctrine? If it wasn't properly exegeted the first time how do you know you did it properely the 2nd or 3rd time?

 

If "Scripture clearly states" something then why would you need to change your doctrine? How could any one disagree with you if it is CLEARLY STATED? Maybe scripture isn't clearly stated and you need guidance so that you don't twist scripture? (2Peter 3:16, Acts 8:31, )

 

 At what point do you KNOW you got it right?

 

What if five other Christians disagree with your exegesis of Scripture who do you go to decide who is right? (Matthew 18:17)


  • 0

#85
tom55

tom55

    Love your neighbor as yourself

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,142 posts

You pose the very same questions that Paul addresses,

 

One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?" But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" (Romans 9:19-20)

 

And God is the one who hardens the hearts, to prevent those whom he has not chosen to receive salvation,

 

He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'" (Mark 4:11-12)

 

All I can say is I pity you if you still cannot come to understanding. I have given you all the scriptures in this study, I hope you come to understanding, otherwise I have nothing further to say to you.

So God hardens my heart, I don't. 

 

I have no choice in what I do or say since I am predestined to do it or say it.

 

I don't think you really believe what you are writing because you said that you 'hope I come to understanding'. You can hope all you want but it doesn't matter....if I am predestined. You can pray for me all you want...it doesn't matter....if I am predestined. You told me to stop rejecting the truth and accept it but I can't stop...if I am predestined. You also said you "have nothing further to say" to me. How do you KNOW you have nothing further to say to me?? Did you make that decision or were you predestined to make that decision. Logically if you do say something more to me then it was Gods choice, not yours since you already said you have nothing further to say.

 

Sounds like we are all robots. I don't feel like a robot. <_<


  • 0

#86
Dcopymope

Dcopymope

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 221 posts

It is the Lord's will, Jesus Christ, that none should perish. But it is God's will to show mercy to some, and to punish others, hence,

What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- (Romans 9:22-23)


The scriptures make no such distinguishment between the "Lord" Jesus, and "God" showing mercy for who he may choose. As far as most on here is concerned, the Lord Jesus Christ is God in the flesh. And Whosoever shall call on the lord shall be saved. I don't recall it saying that whosoever God predestined to call on the lord shall be saved.
  • 0

#87
Dcopymope

Dcopymope

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 221 posts

So God hardens my heart, I don't.

I have no choice in what I do or say since I am predestined to do it or say it.

I don't think you really believe what you are writing because you said that you 'hope I come to understanding'. You can hope all you want but it doesn't matter....if I am predestined. You can pray for me all you want...it doesn't matter....if I am predestined. You told me to stop rejecting the truth and accept it but I can't stop...if I am predestined. You also said you "have nothing further to say" to me. How do you KNOW you have nothing further to say to me?? Did you make that decision or were you predestined to make that decision. Logically if you do say something more to me then it was Gods choice, not yours since you already said you have nothing further to say.

Sounds like we are all robots. I don't feel like a robot. <_<


According to him, God programmed every single living soul with a set of 0 & 1, "if" "then" input statements like you would a robot. A robot cannot make its own decisions, it can only do what it was predestined to do by its code. Its given a set of problems, or "if" statements, and is given a set of responses, or "then" statements to solve it. It cannot formulate its own solutions outside the parameters of its code, or even makeup its own problems and think outside the box in how to solve them.
  • 0

#88
justaname

justaname

    Disciple

  • Moderator
  • 2,319 posts

When you exegete the Scripture and thru "proper" exegesis you form doctrine and then later you are convinced that something in Scripture discredits your own doctrine so you then change your doctrine how can you ever know for sure if you have finally found  the truth of Scripture or the right doctrine? If it wasn't properly exegeted the first time how do you know you did it properely the 2nd or 3rd time?

 

If "Scripture clearly states" something then why would you need to change your doctrine? How could any one disagree with you if it is CLEARLY STATED? Maybe scripture isn't clearly stated and you need guidance so that you don't twist scripture? (2Peter 3:16, Acts 8:31, )

 

 At what point do you KNOW you got it right?

 

What if five other Christians disagree with your exegesis of Scripture who do you go to decide who is right? (Matthew 18:17)

 

Scripture will not contradict itself, only the interpretation has that capability (to contradict itself), thus we must use Scripture to interpret Scripture.  Everyone who reads Scripture is an interpreter and applies a certain hermeneutic to the text.  The main concept behind studying and interpreting Scripture is to remain humble and teachable.  At no point does anyone "know they have it right".  If interpreting the text were just that easy, there would only be one view in interpretation.  Yet from before the reformation, from before the split between east and west, good theologians, Holy Spirit led individuals, have disagreed in regards to interpreting Scripture.  Early Church Fathers have differing views in regard to the text.  Thus we remain humble in regards to God's Holy Writ.  

 

In exegesis one must keep in tack what is being said in the text without importing ideas or concepts into it, although this idea in itself is a particular hermeneutic that all do not follow when interpreting the text.  Yet this is a widely accepted approach amongst conservative modern scholarship.  So then as theologians attempt to exegete they may miss something in the text, or unwittingly make the text say something it did not.  To be extremely dogmatic about a particular interpretation can prove you to be prideful about something you have concocted and not what God has intended in His word.  (James 3:1)  Here it is understandable why it is so important to be able to approach the text from it's original languages (Greek or Hebrew).  At least then interpreters can view the syntax and grammar without being dependent on the translator doing that work for them.  Know that as translators (not to be confused with interpreters) approach the text they must make certain theological decisions on how to translate from say Greek to (Insert Language).

 

Then it is important to console the Church Universal.  We have a vast amount of Holy Spirt led theologians from the past that have gone on before us.  It is good to understand that if theologians are introducing some unfound, brand new idea to the Scripture, it is likely an improper view or even heretical.  Scripture has been under the theological lens for thousands of years, and numerous theologians have examined the Scriptures gaining profound insight illuming the text for others to glean from.  It is only proper then to go back to the giants that have gone on before us and see how your interpretation stands against the test of time.

 

One last concept.  There are many things that are clearly stated.  For example a short verse:  Jesus wept.  I would argue this is clearly stated, yet others would argue Jesus didn't actually weep if in some way it contradicted their dogmatic doctrinal position.  For some, Scripture can mean anything they want it to.  Yet God has intended Scripture to conform to His holy communication, thus He used language, in its plain understandable context, to convey His message.  So then as I, and many other theologians, approach the Scriptures, we humbly submit ourselves to it's plain meaning.  We do not look for a "hidden" meaning or the allegorical or "spiritual" meaning, nor do we seek to understand what the text is saying to us personally.  We make our best attempt to place ourselves in the sandals of time, to gain an understanding of what the original author was conveying to their original audience.  Here the interpreter must bear the historical, geographical, and cultural significances the context may posses.  Only after a thorough examination of the scripture by reading, and re-reading, only to repeat again and again, carefully considering all that is said in it's particular setting and context, prayerfully seeking to understand what God is presenting to the people it was written to in their time, place, and culture, searching out the arguments and themes the author has presented to the point of the passage being examined, then and only then can the interpreter bring forward the application to a contemporary audience.

 

Exegesis when properly executed and properly presented is not an easy task.  It is not the work for everyone, yet everyone who claims to be a teacher of the word ought to be doing it.  All this to say though, even through this approach, different exegetes have come to different conclusions or interpretations concerning certain passages.  Yet the vast majority of theologians come to the same conclusions concerning matters of what we consider to be of "first importance" or orthodox Christian tenants. (e.g. the divinity of Christ, the Trinity, salvation by God's grace through faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ)  In this category all Catholic Christians agree.  

 

I could go further into detail concerning this subject, yet there are many books that do a far greater job explaining it.  If you are interested in some recommendations I could give you some.    


  • 0
You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

#89
cga

cga

    Advanced Member

  • Account Retired
  • PipPipPip
  • 98 posts

The scriptures make no such distinguishment between the "Lord" Jesus, and "God" showing mercy for who he may choose. As far as most on here is concerned, the Lord Jesus Christ is God in the flesh. And Whosoever shall call on the lord shall be saved. I don't recall it saying that whosoever God predestined to call on the lord shall be saved.

 

Jesus is indeed God, as a representation of God in creation, but he is not the Father, as the two are very distinct beings. And so, it is the Father who does not change his mind from what he has determined to do,

 

God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill? (Numbers 23:19 [NIV])

 

Whereas Jesus Christ, who is lesser than the Father, is not the one who predestines all things, but it is the Father alone who predestines and predetermines and foreknows all things.


Edited by cga, 16 November 2016 - 06:52 AM.

  • 0

#90
kerwin

kerwin

    Advanced Member

  • Christian Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 582 posts

Jesus is indeed God, as a representation of God in creation, but he is not the Father, as the two are very distinct beings. And so, it is the Father who does not change his mind from what he has determined to do,

 

God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill? (Numbers 23:19 [NIV])

 

Whereas Jesus Christ, who is lesser than the Father, is not the one who predestines all things, but it is the Father alone who predestines and predetermines and foreknows all things.

 

You are righting in the wrong forum.  Please consider placing those things considered unorthodox by this board into the unorthodox forum.  This post would qualify as this is a Trinitarian board but I believe the thread is alright where it is.


  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users