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#31
bbyrd009

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You are confused. God's Spirit is also holy and I am indwelled by Him. I did not reject Him. That makes me holy. I don't kill everyone I touch.

 

are you sure? "You are confused" is also a way to kill someone, jan.

 

Wadr it is just another way to say that you know, when you prolly do not know, like the Book says. Not even bothering with getting into how you make the Book = God, verifying that you do not know. Not saying that i know anything either, but wadr i am seeing a distinct correlation herenow with the conflation of Atheists and Fundies


Edited by bbyrd009, 17 January 2017 - 08:42 AM.

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#32
bbyrd009

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I do not know who you listen to if you deny the power of God's holy writ, but it is not the Holy Spirit. He will never deny God's Word or word.

 

He is God's Word, so now it is you that is "confused," see, and now you are making no sense, understand? Which i don't actually mean, except for illumination, ok, BAM believe what you believe.

 

As soon as i read "Easter" in your KJV, and the Spirit tells me "Passover," then your argument runs aground, imo. So put me down for "denying the power of God's holy writ," too; if you are going to turn the Book into God.

 

So, all are deceived, and btw i actually agree with the Spirit of your post, for the most part, and perceive that you likely have a better heart than me to boot lol. So please don't take this wrong.


Edited by bbyrd009, 17 January 2017 - 08:51 AM.

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#33
justaname

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He is God's Word, so now it is you that is "confused," see, and now you are making no sense, understand? Which i don't actually mean, except for illumination, ok, BAM believe what you believe.

As soon as i read "Easter" in your KJV, and the Spirit tells me "Passover," then your argument runs aground, imo. So put me down for "denying the power of God's holy writ," too; if you are going to turn the Book into God.

So, all are deceived, and btw i actually agree with the Spirit of your post, for the most part, and perceive that you likely have a better heart than me to boot lol. So please don't take this wrong.


Jesus is the Logos. Nowhere are we taught the Holy Spirit is God's Word.
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You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

#34
bbyrd009

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Jesus is the Logos. Nowhere are we taught the Holy Spirit is God's Word.

17Take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is God's Word. 


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#35
justaname

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The sword of the Spirit is not the same as the Holy Spirit. Then the context is teaching the Scripture is our offense in spiritual warefare.

and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, - Ephesians 6:17

Refer back to Jesus' temptation where He used Scripture to combat the Devil.

καὶ τὴν μάχαιραν τοῦ πνεύματος, ὅ ἐστιν ῥῆμα θεοῦ.
And the sword of the Spirit is the word of God

Notice the Scripture uses "rema" and not "logos"...
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You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

#36
bbyrd009

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so, you have simply come down on one side of the "Logos/Rhema" argument then, in order to make your pov work, it seems to me. They strike me as the masculine and feminine descriptions of the same thing, Spirit.


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#37
justaname

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so, you have simply come down on one side of the "Logos/Rhema" argument then, in order to make your pov work, it seems to me. They strike me as the masculine and feminine descriptions of the same thing, Spirit.


Here is a definition for Logos....

the independent personified expression of God, the Logos. Our lit. shows traces of a way of thinking that was widespread in contemporary syncretism, as well as in Jewish wisdom lit. and Philo, the most prominent feature of which is the concept of the Logos, the independent, personified ‘Word’ (of God): GJs 11:2 (word of the angel to Mary) συνλήμψῃ ἐκ Λόγου αὐτοῦ (sc. τοῦ πάντων Δεσπότου). J 1:1abc, 14 (cp. Just., A I, 23, 2; Mel., P. 9, 61 and oft. by all apolog., exc.. Ar.). It is the distinctive teaching of the Fourth Gospel that this divine ‘Word’ took on human form in a historical person, that is, in Jesus

William Arndt, Frederick W. Danker, and Walter Bauer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 601.

Here is a definition of rema....

that which is said, word, saying, expression, or statement of any kind

William Arndt, Frederick W. Danker, and Walter Bauer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 905.

 

 

It is more than a masculine/feminine thing.  They are two completely different concepts.  One is a "word" and the other is the "Word".  In that particular verse "rema" is referring to the Scripture.  In John where Jesus is associated with the "Logos" the term, logos, was known amongst the Greek world to be a divine concept.

 

In neither of these verses are the terms referring to the Spirit as they are nouns themselves.


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You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

#38
bbyrd009

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Well, i wasn't really trying to conflate the two anyway, so much as suggest that Scripture may have. "According to Nee a passage of the logos can move into being rhema if it becomes shown to apply to the specific individual." Which i am not too interested in getting into that argument again, but others might want to. This appears to be as close as they come in the Book, and Rhema should prolly be more associated with sword than Spirit there anyway, i guess? Iow it is possible that the Spirit could be characterized elsewhere other than sword...

The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and of might, the Spirit of the knowledge and fear 

 

But honestly i think a discussion of whether Rhema even = Scripture as we understand It might be more productive, rather than maybe attempting to over-define God, which it might just be me, but that discussion makes me uncomfortable anyway. I guess obviously if the Spirit breathes a Word, even straight to me or whatever, no Book involved, the Spirit and the Word are still nonetheless distinguished in some manner; but i think i have to agree with Nee there, it would be a very fine distinction for me. Although i guess not for anyone that i repeated it to, maybe.

 

17Take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is God's Word. 


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#39
H. Richard

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I gotta side with Stranger. I can answer many of those questions, but I need the Bible to do it. Its the only primary and public source we have. If you don't hold it as the words of God.... I can't discuss it with you.

The bottom line is that far too many people have developed their view of God based on selected scripture.

**

According to the Bible those that do not have the Holy Spirit can not understand the Bible.  Most will ready believe men in religions who take the scriptures to prove a religious doctrine.  But only those who have the Holy Spirit can understand the truth.  It says so in the scriptures.

 

According to the scriptures and God's dealing with the Jews, there will only be a remnant saved.

 

Many will try to tell you they have the Holy Spirit by their display of works. But Jesus told us that is not possible.

 

John 3:6-8
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit." 
NKJV
 

.I will side with mjrhealth.


Edited by H. Richard, 25 January 2017 - 06:01 AM.

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#40
FHII

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**
According to the Bible those that do not have the Holy Spirit can not understand the Bible. Most will ready believe men in religions who take the scriptures to prove a religious doctrine. But only those who have the Holy Spirit can understand the truth. It says so in the scriptures.

According to the scriptures and God's dealing with the Jews, there will only be a remnant saved.

Many will try to tell you they have the Holy Spirit by their display of works. But Jesus told us that is not possible.

John 3:6-8
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
NKJV

.I will side with mjrhealth.

Haven't seen you in a while H. Richard... Missed you my friend!

I disagree with Mjrhealth on his stance on many things. He's right about grace through faith, an I also agree with his stance (and yours) about the Holy Spirit... Up to a point.

What I agree with Stranger about (and disagree with Mjr about) is his stance on the importance of the Bible. Mjr claims it is not the word of God. My comprehension of his stance may be incomplete, but based on what I have read I disagree.

Its pretty difficult to understand his point of view when he tells me its not the word of God and we should follow the spirit (whatever he believes that to be) and then turns around and quotes the Bible as though he believes it has authority.

So H. Richard... Do you believe in the Bible's authority as Mjrhealth does? Because as far as I can gather... He doesn't. But he quotes from it as he does.

Second question: what if anything do you disagree with me about concerning this point? My assrtation is that the Bible is truth and it is the word of God. Do you disagree?


I have to add this. I have had my say against Mjrhealth about this. I presented my arguement and vowed to let it rest.

Mjrhealth: despite this disagreement, I have nothing against you and I stand with you on many issues. I have stood with you on other threads. Please don't think I am against you on everything just becausr I disagree on this one point.

Edited by FHII, 25 January 2017 - 04:09 PM.

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#41
mjrhealth

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Mjrhealth: despite this disagreement, I have nothing against you and I stand with you on many issues. I have stood with you on other threads. Please don't think I am against you on everything just becausr I disagree on this one point.

It matters not if you agree with me, not the issue, one must only agree with God. Is teh bible the word of God, If it was like His truth of which tehre is only one, there would onl ybe one bible, There is no life in scripture Jesus declares thant, life is in His word that He speaks, that is in your bible, When he speaks and we hear than we get life, reading cannot do that. The bible has its place it is not equal to Jesus nor God. A car maitenance manual that mentions a ford, does not make it a ford manual.


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The words that I SPEAK they are spirit and they are life. You search the scriptures, reading them thinking they bring you life, and they testify of Me yet you wont come to me so that you can have eternal life.


#42
FHII

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It matters not if you agree with me, not the issue, one must only agree with God. Is teh bible the word of God, If it was like His truth of which tehre is only one, there would onl ybe one bible, There is no life in scripture Jesus declares thant, life is in His word that He speaks, that is in your bible, When he speaks and we hear than we get life, reading cannot do that. The bible has its place it is not equal to Jesus nor God. A car maitenance manual that mentions a ford, does not make it a ford manual.


Mjrhealth

I am not going to discuss this further with you. I have explained to you the verse where Jesus said "in them you think you have salvation". The key is that the scripture testified of him. It was an endorsement of the scripture. Not that it was intrue, but that it was true.

I gave you a compliment and as I have said, I agree with you on many pertinent points. I have no problem with your conclusions, only with your point of view on the Bible.
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#43
mjrhealth

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My grand daughter has blanky and teddy, but now she is growing up she need them less. We Christians are supposed to have Christ to hold onto.

 

When I travel, i go to google erath see where my destination is, than i set my GPS make sure its heading in teh right direction than I follow it till I get there. Than I turn it of and get out to what I need to do.

Teh probem with the bible is yes, it does testify of Jesus, it tells you "about Him", problem is just like it says,

 

Joh 5:40  And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

 

When you get offended because someone is going to take your bible from you, that is where your heart is, no one i repeat, no one can take Jesus from you, but you have to go to Him first.


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The words that I SPEAK they are spirit and they are life. You search the scriptures, reading them thinking they bring you life, and they testify of Me yet you wont come to me so that you can have eternal life.


#44
bbyrd009

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Making the Book into God is a great deception, that keeps one from finding Word, and even puts one at odds with the Book. It turns one into a lawyer, on the losing side, imo. 

Many will try to tell you they have the Holy Spirit by their display of works. But Jesus told us that is not possible.

 

7Little children, let no one deceive you! The one who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous. 


Edited by bbyrd009, 26 January 2017 - 07:40 AM.

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#45
FHII

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My grand daughter has blanky and teddy, but now she is growing up she need them less. We Christians are supposed to have Christ to hold onto.

When I travel, i go to google erath see where my destination is, than i set my GPS make sure its heading in teh right direction than I follow it till I get there. Than I turn it of and get out to what I need to do.
Teh probem with the bible is yes, it does testify of Jesus, it tells you "about Him", problem is just like it says,

Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

When you get offended because someone is going to take your bible from you, that is where your heart is, no one i repeat, no one can take Jesus from you, but you have to go to Him first.


Ok. So you are comparing the Bible to a teddy bear and a blanky. Nice.

I compare it to a personal letter he wrote to me. It tells me who he is and details what he wants me to do. If my wife wrote me a letter I would cherish that letter and count it as her word. It would be a part of her love just as much as if she was with me in flesh and blood.

As strong as her words are in a letter and as much as I hold them dear, Jesus's letter to me is stronger.

And I must say, I am growing tired of your insuations that because I cherish the Bible like I do that I haven't come to Jesus.

Aside from that... I've done all I can to applaud you and support you. Here is this one thing that we disagree on, and I am trying to put it aside.

I told you I wouldn't bother you about this again. I got drawn back in. I apolgize for that.
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#46
H. Richard

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Haven't seen you in a while H. Richard... Missed you my friend!

I disagree with Mjrhealth on his stance on many things. He's right about grace through faith, an I also agree with his stance (and yours) about the Holy Spirit... Up to a point.

What I agree with Stranger about (and disagree with Mjr about) is his stance on the importance of the Bible. Mjr claims it is not the word of God. My comprehension of his stance may be incomplete, but based on what I have read I disagree.

Its pretty difficult to understand his point of view when he tells me its not the word of God and we should follow the spirit (whatever he believes that to be) and then turns around and quotes the Bible as though he believes it has authority.

So H. Richard... Do you believe in the Bible's authority as Mjrhealth does? Because as far as I can gather... He doesn't. But he quotes from it as he does.

Second question: what if anything do you disagree with me about concerning this point? My assrtation is that the Bible is truth and it is the word of God. Do you disagree?


I have to add this. I have had my say against Mjrhealth about this. I presented my arguement and vowed to let it rest.

Mjrhealth: despite this disagreement, I have nothing against you and I stand with you on many issues. I have stood with you on other threads. Please don't think I am against you on everything just becausr I disagree on this one point.

**

I believe that it is the Holy Spirit that teaches the children of God by letting them see the unsearchable riches that are in Christ.  Yes, the scriptures are necessary, but as we all know they can be used by Satan too.

 

I have been away because my old computer bit the dust and I could not find my password.  It is hard to get back on the forum by saying you forgot your password.  It sends you to a place that will get one for you but at a cost.  Glad to see you are still posting and trying to keep mjr and I straight..


Edited by H. Richard, 26 January 2017 - 01:38 PM.

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#47
shnarkle

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I gotta side with Stranger. I can answer many of those questions, but I need the Bible to do it. Its the only primary and public source we have. If you don't hold it as the words of God.... I can't discuss it with you.

The bottom line is that far too many people have developed their view of God based on selected scripture.


What about the Spirit? Didn't Christ send His Spirit? Does the Spirit not testify as well? Does the Spirit not lead us into understanding? I'm not saying throw your bible away, but if the Spirit isn't testifying and drawing you into a deeper relationship then, the bible is just someone else's testimony; dogmatic assertions.
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#48
FHII

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What about the Spirit? Didn't Christ send His Spirit? Does the Spirit not testify as well? Does the Spirit not lead us into understanding? I'm not saying throw your bible away, but if the Spirit isn't testifying and drawing you into a deeper relationship then, the bible is just someone else's testimony; dogmatic assertions.


I abolutely agree that Christ sent his spirit, that it testifies and leads us into understanding.

Understanding of what? The Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth. Therefore he's going to lead you into the truth and a deeper understanding of it.

If the Bible isn't the truth about Jesu than i ask you to point me to what is.
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#49
VictoryinJesus

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In the beginning my relationship with God revolved around prayer. I could talk to Him for hours a day. But I had no desire to read His word. One person doing all the talking does not equal relationship. Thankfully God is longsuffering. I thought I knew Him because I spent a lot of time talking to Him but during that time I was pulled and tossed in every direction, swept up in any theology or belief.

I had no compass. No directions. No guidance.

All I had was a ton of emotions and feelings that I didn't know what to do with. I was infatuated with God. It wasn't until I picked up the Bible for myself that I stopped being torn between so many beliefs. Everyone had an interpretation. I had an arsenal of interpretations myself, and stories I knew were in the Bible. All my knowledge had come from a life time of others telling me what scripture says when I had not invested a single minute in reading scripture for myself. Now, I view the Bible as an open invitation to know Christ. The Bible is just a book, until the Spirit becomes involved, then it becomes supernatural. A man(or woman)can spend a lifetime and never fully exhaust a subject within the Word. Which gives us a foreshadowing of the complexity and depth of God. God is absolute. We are the ones that distort the truth.

Edited by VictoryinJesus, 06 February 2017 - 05:30 PM.

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#50
FHII

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In the beginning my relationship with God revolved around prayer. I could talk to Him for hours a day. But I had no desire to read His word. One person doing all the talking does not equal relationship. Thankfully God is longsuffering. I thought I knew Him because I spent a lot of time talking to Him but during that time I was pulled and tossed in every direction, swept up in any theology or belief.

I had no compass. No directions. No guidance.

All I had was a ton of emotions and feelings that I didn't know what to do with. I was infatuated with God. It wasn't until I picked up the Bible for myself that I stopped being torn between so many beliefs. Everyone had an interpretation. I had an arsenal of interpretations myself, and stories I knew were in the Bible. All my knowledge had come from a life time of others telling me what scripture says when I had not invested a single minute in reading scripture for myself. Now, I view the Bible as an open invitation to know Christ. The Bible is just a book, until the Spirit becomes involved, then it becomes supernatural. A man(or woman)can spend a lifetime and never fully exhaust a subject within the Word. Which gives us a foreshadowing of the complexity and depth of God. God is absolute. We are the ones that distort the truth.


Amen!

I got a feeling that 99% of our problems don't require prayer. They require reading!

God has more important things to say to us than we do to him.
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#51
bbyrd009

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as long as you imagine that you can "read" the Word, you need to keep reading, i guess. Don't skip that "see and not see" part though, because it is for you.


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#52
VictoryinJesus

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16 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord.

17 They say still unto them that despise me, The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

18 For who hath stood in the counsel of the Lord, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?

19 Behold, a whirlwind of the Lord is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.

20 The anger of the Lord shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.

21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.

22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

23 Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off?

24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.

25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.

26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;

27 Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.

28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the Lord.

29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.

31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.

32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the Lord, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the Lord (Jeremiah 23:16-32)

 

"And Balak said unto Balaam, Did I not earnestly send unto thee to call thee? wherefore camest thou not unto me? am I not able indeed to promote thee to honour? And Balaam said unto Balak, Lo, I am come unto thee: have I now any power at all to say any thing? the word that God putteth in my mouth, that shall I speak." (Numbers 22:37-38)

 

Am I the only one that this terrifies? The gravity of every thought we speak and assign to God? Questioning the motives behind those words? A scary eye-opening thought: Jesus told the Pharisees that not only did they not enter the Kingdom of Heaven but the prevented others from entering. My respect goes out to pastors and the heavy weight of responsibility that goes along with their calling.


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#53
shnarkle

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I abolutely agree that Christ sent his spirit, that it testifies and leads us into understanding.

Understanding of what? The Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth. Therefore he's going to lead you into the truth and a deeper understanding of it.

If the Bible isn't the truth about Jesu than i ask you to point me to what is.


It's a true testament, but it doesn't live itself. The Spirit lives out the reality of the bible's testimony.
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#54
bbyrd009

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when we get out of the way, at least. Can't lead a donkey.

 

I got a feeling that 99% of our problems don't require prayer. They require reading!

amen. People perish for lack of knowledge. But who has the stones to tell someone with a problem that they don't need prayer, in a "church" setting? What drove me nuts is that they would get the prayer, from the "church." My mom's best friend recently died of leukemia, after much prayer and chemotherapy. Went in for a bone marrow transplant, which was deemed a "miracle." I asked her what her arsenic level was, and she stared at me like i was from Mars. Sweetest heart you ever knew, too. Tares are a powerful thing. Way more than any prescription.


Edited by bbyrd009, 09 February 2017 - 07:52 AM.

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