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Jesus is God or Lord?

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52 replies to this topic

#1
Angelina

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I just overheard a conversation in another Christian forum about God. The position from one believer clearly suggested that if you do not believe that Jesus is God, you are not saved? His assumption is that God and Lord are referring to same person.... He used the Amplified to explain his position.

 

Romans 10 Amplified

But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word [the message, the basis] of faith which we preach— because if you acknowledge and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord [recognizing His power, authority, and majesty as God], and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart a person believes [in Christ as Savior] resulting in his justification [that is, being made righteous—being freed of the guilt of sin and made acceptable to God]; and with the mouth he acknowledges and confesses [his faith openly], resulting in and confirming [his] salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him [whoever adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Him] will not be disappointed [in his expectations].”

 

IMHO ~ Although Jesus had the authority to lay down his life and take it up again John 10:17-18. He was being obedient to God his father right to the end for this very reason Hebrews 2:17 NIV and it was his Father who raised him up. If he raised himself up, how could he fully appreciate the responsibility of being a great high priest on our behalf....JMHO :huh: Jesus is God but he is also Lord.

 

The issue seemed to be that Jesus was always God yet the bible tells us in Philippians 2

 

 

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

I would like to clarify this bible passage again. "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.  "

 

It's that simple and God does not add anything more to it!

 

Blessings!

  


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1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blog: http://www.christian...e-of-the-myths/


#2
brakelite

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Could I add....Eph. 1:15 ¶  Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16  Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17  That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Post ascension the Father is still Jesus' God.


  • 0

.....But his word was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not stay

Jeremiah 20:9

 

http://brakelite.wordpress.com

 

I have sworn on the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.
— Thomas Jefferson


#3
mjrhealth

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Post ascension the Father is still Jesus' God.

I guess you missed this bit

 

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory

 

God is the God of Jesus, doesnt say Jesus is God no matter how you read it.


  • 1

The words that I SPEAK they are spirit and they are life. You search the scriptures, reading them thinking they bring you life, and they testify of Me yet you wont come to me so that you can have eternal life.


#4
Deborah_

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I just overheard a conversation in another Christian forum about God. The position from one believer clearly suggested that if you do not believe that Jesus is God, you are not saved? His assumption is that God and Lord are referring to same person.... He used the Amplified to explain his position.

 

Romans 10 Amplified

But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word [the message, the basis] of faith which we preach— because if you acknowledge and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord [recognizing His power, authority, and majesty as God], and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart a person believes [in Christ as Savior] resulting in his justification [that is, being made righteous—being freed of the guilt of sin and made acceptable to God]; and with the mouth he acknowledges and confesses [his faith openly], resulting in and confirming [his] salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him [whoever adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Him] will not be disappointed [in his expectations].”

 

 

 

Why does he finish the quote at verse 11? Paul's train of thought continues to verse 13, where he quotes Joel 2:32 to support his assertion that "if you declare with your mouth 'Jesus is Lord'... you will be saved." "For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" (Romans 10:13, Joel 2:32) But Joel is talking about God (Yahweh) - so Paul is implicitly stating that Jesus is God, and the assumption is that calling Jesus 'Lord' is effectively declaring belief in His deity.


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"In your hearts revere Christ as Lord." (I Peter 3:15)

 

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#5
Angelina

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Why does he finish the quote at verse 11? Paul's train of thought continues to verse 13, where he quotes Joel 2:32 to support his assertion that "if you declare with your mouth 'Jesus is Lord'... you will be saved." "For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" (Romans 10:13, Joel 2:32) But Joel is talking about God (Yahweh) - so Paul is implicitly stating that Jesus is God, and the assumption is that calling Jesus 'Lord' is effectively declaring belief in His deity.

 

Don't get me wrong...I'm not saying that Jesus is not God. Hebrews 1:8-9. The point being made was that Jesus was God pre-cross and if he were God then anyone who confesses that Jesus is lord cannot be saved. Romans 10:9. This was the point being made.  If that were the case then his death and resurrection would not have the same impact for mankind. He had to die as a man so that he can be the first fruit of the living, raised by God the Father and the first to ascend into the kingdom. If he were wearing his God hat pre-cross then it would not have the same impact for mankind as it does right now.

 

Although Jesus is God, he was wearing his man hat when he went to the cross to fulfill all things spoken about him through the prophets.

 

Philippians 2

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


  • 0
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blog: http://www.christian...e-of-the-myths/


#6
Angelina

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Could I add....Eph. 1:15 ¶  Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16  Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17  That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Post ascension the Father is still Jesus' God.

 

The Father is not Jesus...it does not say that in the verse you quoted. That is a oneness doctrine. Please read our statement of faith re: our stand on the Trinity...

 

When verse 17 says "the God of our Lord Jesus Christ [he's talking about Father God. Then he reiterates that point by further stating...] the Father of Glory...

 

If the Father was Jesus then why does it say in Hebrews 1:7 firstly about the angels "  then in verse 8  he says

~ but to the Son: Your throne, God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of justice.You have loved righteousnessand hated lawlessness;

this is why God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of joy rather than Your companions.


  • 0
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blog: http://www.christian...e-of-the-myths/


#7
Angelina

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I feel that I need to clarify my first post which seems a little confusing now that I have re-read it.. I believe Jesus is lord [Messiah, the anointed one, the coming one] pre-cross and he is also God [equal part of the Trinity] after he fulfilled all things pertaining to his coming, post cross. He could have acted as God pre-cross but that was not his purpose for being born into the world in the form of a human.

 

Let's take this a little further. The original discussion was made by a believer from another forum who stated that you cannot be saved if you do not believe that Jesus is God. He then quotes Romans 10:9 from the Amplified to support this belief.

 

because if you acknowledge and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord [recognizing His power, authority, and majesty as God], and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

No other bible supports this version and please note that the key word is in brackets...

 

Now let's take a look at another passage when Jesus asks Peter who he thought he was...Matthew 16

1He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ G5548, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

 

Christ ~ From G5548; anointed, that is, the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus: - Christ.


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1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blog: http://www.christian...e-of-the-myths/


#8
Stranger

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As far as ones salvation is concerned, all that is required is that you come to Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Believe on Jesus Christ. Trust Christ as your Lord and Savior.  And the only reason you come to Christ is to be forgiven your sins and have eternal life.  That is the Gospel.  All of this is known before you have a desire to come to Christ.  Because that is why you come.

 

To say that if you don't know every truth about Jesus Christ the Son of God means you are not saved, makes no sense to me.   We are always learning, or should be, about Jesus Christ.  But we begin with simple faith and knowledge.  How many the different utterances that have been said at the point of salvation in the history of believers?   God is not saving theologians, He is saving sinners who recognize Christ as their Saviour.  

 

Concerning the Trinity, and Christs place before and after the cross, I would say He was and is God The Son the whole way.  He was and is the God Man.

 

(1Timothy 3:16)  "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:  God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glorly."

 

Stranger


Edited by Stranger, 13 January 2017 - 05:06 AM.

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#9
brakelite

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I guess you missed this bit

 

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory

 

God is the God of Jesus, doesnt say Jesus is God no matter how you read it.

That is the point I was making. However, I might add that Jesus is God...the rock that was cut out of the mountain in Daniel 2 is Jesus...that mountain was/is the Father...the rock may not be in personality the same age as the Father, but it is made of the same material. Like Father like Son. Both God, but the Father is first in all things.


Edited by brakelite, 13 January 2017 - 05:20 AM.

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.....But his word was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not stay

Jeremiah 20:9

 

http://brakelite.wordpress.com

 

I have sworn on the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.
— Thomas Jefferson


#10
brakelite

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The Father is not Jesus...it does not say that in the verse you quoted. That is a oneness doctrine. Please read our statement of faith re: our stand on the Trinity...

 

When verse 17 says "the God of our Lord Jesus Christ [he's talking about Father God. Then he reiterates that point by further stating...] the Father of Glory...

 

If the Father was Jesus then why does it say in Hebrews 1:7 firstly about the angels "  then in verse 8  he says

~ but to the Son: Your throne, God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of justice.You have loved righteousnessand hated lawlessness;

this is why God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of joy rather than Your companions.

I am not saying that the Father is Jesus. Far from it, in fact quite the opposite. And you are the second person not to understand what I was saying. I said that the Father is Jesus's God....only good written grammar does not permit the inclusion of the last "s: after Jesus', so I left it out, and it was misunderstood. The Father is the God of Jesus, even after the ascension...which means that the Father was not simply a metaphorical position or a role He was playing during Jesus' lifetime.


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.....But his word was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not stay

Jeremiah 20:9

 

http://brakelite.wordpress.com

 

I have sworn on the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.
— Thomas Jefferson


#11
brakelite

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I feel that I need to clarify my first post which seems a little confusing now that I have re-read it.. I believe Jesus is lord [Messiah, the anointed one, the coming one] pre-cross and he is also God [equal part of the Trinity] after he fulfilled all things pertaining to his coming, post cross. He could have acted as God pre-cross but that was not his purpose for being born into the world in the form of a human.

 

Let's take this a little further. The original discussion was made by a believer from another forum who stated that you cannot be saved if you do not believe that Jesus is God. He then quotes Romans 10:9 from the Amplified to support this belief.

 

because if you acknowledge and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord [recognizing His power, authority, and majesty as God], and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

No other bible supports this version and please note that the key word is in brackets...

 

Now let's take a look at another passage when Jesus asks Peter who he thought he was...Matthew 16

1He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ G5548, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

 

Christ ~ From G5548; anointed, that is, the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus: - Christ.

Yes, it is Peter's confession as to the true identity of our Savior upon which our faith is built...the Messiah, the Son of God. And it is this fact, that Jesus is God's Son, that makes Hm Lord and Christ, and also makes Him God. I would strongly suggest though that there is nothing i any of that that suggests a pure equality with the Father...there is a progression of authority from the Father, to the Son, to the church. And there is coming a time when Jesus will return to the Father the kingdom, and from that time will always be in subjection to Him, as we will be in subjection to Christ. This fact alone is a denial of the idea of trinitarian 'equality'.


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.....But his word was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not stay

Jeremiah 20:9

 

http://brakelite.wordpress.com

 

I have sworn on the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.
— Thomas Jefferson


#12
justaname

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I feel that I need to clarify my first post which seems a little confusing now that I have re-read it.. I believe Jesus is lord [Messiah, the anointed one, the coming one] pre-cross and he is also God [equal part of the Trinity] after he fulfilled all things pertaining to his coming, post cross. He could have acted as God pre-cross but that was not his purpose for being born into the world in the form of a human.

Let's take this a little further. The original discussion was made by a believer from another forum who stated that you cannot be saved if you do not believe that Jesus is God. He then quotes Romans 10:9 from the Amplified to support this belief.

9 because if you acknowledge and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord [recognizing His power, authority, and majesty as God], and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

No other bible supports this version and please note that the key word is in brackets...

Now let's take a look at another passage when Jesus asks Peter who he thought he was...Matthew 16
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ G5548, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Christ ~ From G5548; anointed, that is, the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus: - Christ.

Please help me understand.

1. Do you believe Jesus to be God before He took on flesh?

2. Do you believe He became not-God when He took on flesh?

3. Do you believe he re-became God after the cross or is that the point he first became God?
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You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

#13
7angels

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ok let us look at your points.  i will use red it is easier for me then copy and paste ok :)

I feel that I need to clarify my first post which seems a little confusing now that I have re-read it.. I believe Jesus is lord [Messiah, the anointed one, the coming one] pre-cross and he is also God [equal part of the Trinity] after he fulfilled all things pertaining to his coming, post cross. He could have acted as God pre-cross but that was not his purpose for being born into the world in the form of a human.

i agree that Jesus was part of the trinity from the beginning of time.  thus He was God who made a covenant with the Father on our behalf thus set aside His position, powers, and all His other divine attributes in order to be born a human.  then He was raised from the dead and regained His place in the trinity.  

Let's take this a little further. The original discussion was made by a believer from another forum who stated that you cannot be saved if you do not believe that Jesus is God. He then quotes Romans 10:9 from the Amplified to support this belief.

 

because if you acknowledge and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord [recognizing His power, authority, and majesty as God], and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

No other bible supports this version and please note that the key word is in brackets...

all bibles i know of basically say the exact same thing.  the brackets are just going in-depth as to the meaning of 'Jesus being Lord'.  Jesus being Lord means that much and more to me if i had to describe who He is.  Jesus is part of the trinity, He is God.  just so no one gets confused though the trinity is considered 3 Gods.  the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Now let's take a look at another passage when Jesus asks Peter who he thought he was...Matthew 16

1He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ G5548, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

remember that Jesus talked in parables about the mysteries of the kingdom because the people were not ready to know the whole truth yet.  Jesus only revealed Himself to people who were ready to hear the truth.  none of what peter stated was revealed at that time so God had to of been the one who showed Him the revelation of who Jesus was.  luck 4:41 tells us Jesus silenced the demons who stated to give away who He was.

Christ ~ From G5548; anointed, that is, the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus: - Christ.

i hope this helps 

 

God bless


Edited by 7angels, 13 January 2017 - 08:18 AM.

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#14
Walter

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I just overheard a conversation in another Christian forum about God. The position from one believer clearly suggested that if you do not believe that Jesus is God, you are not saved? His assumption is that God and Lord are referring to same person.... He used the Amplified to explain his position.

 

Romans 10 Amplified

But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word [the message, the basis] of faith which we preach— because if you acknowledge and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord [recognizing His power, authority, and majesty as God], and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart a person believes [in Christ as Savior] resulting in his justification [that is, being made righteous—being freed of the guilt of sin and made acceptable to God]; and with the mouth he acknowledges and confesses [his faith openly], resulting in and confirming [his] salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him [whoever adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Him] will not be disappointed [in his expectations].”

 

IMHO ~ Although Jesus had the authority to lay down his life and take it up again John 10:17-18. He was being obedient to God his father right to the end for this very reason Hebrews 2:17 NIV and it was his Father who raised him up. If he raised himself up, how could he fully appreciate the responsibility of being a great high priest on our behalf....JMHO :huh: Jesus is God but he is also Lord.

 

The issue seemed to be that Jesus was always God yet the bible tells us in Philippians 2

 

 

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

I would like to clarify this bible passage again. "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.  "

 

It's that simple and God does not add anything more to it!

 

Blessings!

  

Hello Angelina, and how are you all? We are being thankful unto GOD, and His Son, for the above post, we would like to share just a few scriptures with you all, proving that of which of our Lord Jesus Christ is not GOD the Father, but is The Son of The Living GOD. If you would just notice in the book of John 4:24 , where Jesus is saying that of his Father, that GOD is a Spirit, and in many more scriptures, but lets just notice also in Acts 17:24 , But here once again in John 14:28http://biblehub.com/john/14-28.htm , As you can clearly see the scriptures are rightly divided. and may I point out, in  To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.http://biblehub.com/...thians/5-19.htm , And in Matthews 16:16, And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.https://www.biblegat...atthew 16:13-20 I can use more scriptures but just these proving that to answer this question: 

Jesus is God or Lord? , Jesus Christ is Lord, https://www.google.c... Christ is Lord , But hopefully, these few scriptures will help?  

 


Edited by Walter, 13 January 2017 - 01:19 PM.

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Love always, Fr. Walter & Debbie, La./Wa. A phrase of our Lord Jesus Christ/ Matt. 6:33.

http://1stthingsfirst.ieasysite.com/


#15
brokentuningfork

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As far as ones salvation is concerned, all that is required is that you come to Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Believe on Jesus Christ. Trust Christ as your Lord and Savior.  And the only reason you come to Christ is to be forgiven your sins and have eternal life.  That is the Gospel.  All of this is known before you have a desire to come to Christ.  Because that is why you come.

 

To say that if you don't know every truth about Jesus Christ the Son of God means you are not saved, makes no sense to me.   We are always learning, or should be, about Jesus Christ.  But we begin with simple faith and knowledge.  How many the different utterances that have been said at the point of salvation in the history of believers?   God is not saving theologians, He is saving sinners who recognize Christ as their Saviour.  

 

Concerning the Trinity, and Christs place before and after the cross, I would say He was and is God The Son the whole way.  He was and is the God Man.

 

(1Timothy 3:16)  "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:  God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glorly."

 

Stranger

 

 

 

+1. Great post, we are born knowing nothing. So when we are born again we also know very little, Christian life is a learning process. Growing slowly like a tree.


Edited by brokentuningfork, 13 January 2017 - 02:47 PM.

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Pornography addiction is a real thing even in the church, silence on this topic is binding down many christians and depriving Jesus from a lot of his believers testimonies of repentance and restoration. God has been working in my life growing me slowly like a tree in baby steps. Here is a song that I wrote, fruit of this work God is doing in my life. If you are struggling with porn addiction, have a listen and see if it helps my brothers:  Song


#16
Angelina

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Thanks everyone. Some great points and posts. Sorry brakelight, I didn't see the extra "s' in your comment. My apologies.

 

justaname your questions; I believe

 

1. Jesus was God and part of the Trinity pre-flesh

2. He made himself a little lower than angels [human] and lay aside his deity while in body to fulfill prophecy. He became a son to the obedience of his Father. Philippians 2:8

3. He took up his deity post-flesh and was given a name that was above every other name....

 

Hebrews1

Long ago God spoke to the fathers by the prophets at different times and in different ways. In these last days, He has spoken to us by His Son. God has appointed Him heir of all things and made the universe through Him. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact expression of His nature, sustaining all things by His powerful word. After making purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. So He became higher in rank than the angels, just as the name He inherited is superior to theirs.


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1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

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#17
Walter

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Thanks everyone. Some great points and posts. Sorry brakelight, I didn't see the extra "s' in your comment. My apologies.

 

justaname your questions; I believe

 

1. Jesus was God and part of the Trinity pre-flesh

2. He made himself a little lower than angels [human] and lay aside his deity while in body to fulfill prophecy. He became a son to the obedience of his Father. Philippians 2:8

3. He took up his deity post-flesh and was given a name that was above every other name....

 

Hebrews1

1 Long ago God spoke to the fathers by the prophets at different times and in different ways. In these last days, He has spoken to us by His Son. God has appointed Him heir of all things and made the universe through Him. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact expression of His nature, sustaining all things by His powerful word. After making purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. So He became higher in rank than the angels, just as the name He inherited is superior to theirs.

Jesus was and still is: Old and New Testaments, Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. https://www.biblegat...6-7&version=KJV http://biblehub.com/...imothy/3-16.htm , http://biblehub.com/john/5-39.htm , 


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Love always, Fr. Walter & Debbie, La./Wa. A phrase of our Lord Jesus Christ/ Matt. 6:33.

http://1stthingsfirst.ieasysite.com/


#18
Angelina

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Jesus was and still is: Old and New Testaments, Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. https://www.biblegat...6-7&version=KJV http://biblehub.com/...imothy/3-16.htm , http://biblehub.com/john/5-39.htm , 

 

Isaiah 7:14

14 Therefore the Lord [H136] himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

 

[H136] ad-o-noy' An emphatic form of H113; the Lord (used as a proper name of God only): - (my) Lord.

 

[H113] ~ aw-done', aw-done' From an unused root (meaning to rule); sovereign, that is, controller (human or divine): - lord, master, owner. Compare also names beginning with Adoni-.
 

1 Timothy 3:16

It is true that God was manifest in the flesh but that does not change any of the points being made. As posted in #16 he was God pre-flesh.
 


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1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

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Blog: http://www.christian...e-of-the-myths/


#19
Stranger

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Isaiah 7:14

14 Therefore the Lord [H136] himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

 

[H136] ad-o-noy' An emphatic form of H113; the Lord (used as a proper name of God only): - (my) Lord.

 

[H113] ~ aw-done', aw-done' From an unused root (meaning to rule); sovereign, that is, controller (human or divine): - lord, master, owner. Compare also names beginning with Adoni-.
 

1 Timothy 3:16

It is true that God was manifest in the flesh but that does not change any of the points being made. As posted in #16 he was God pre-flesh.
 

 

But, 1Tim.3:16 says God was manifest 'in the flesh', not before the flesh.  

 

Stranger


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#20
Angelina

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But, 1Tim.3:16 says God was manifest 'in the flesh', not before the flesh.  

 

Stranger

 

I think you're misinterpreting what I am saying. Jesus was always God before he became flesh and blood but he was not Father God. Philippians 2:5-6,7. Scripture tells us he appeared as flesh, vindicated in the Spirit [cleared of blame], seen by angels...etc

 

16 And most certainly, the mystery of godliness is great:

He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the Spirit,
seen by angels,preached among the nations,
believed on in the world, taken up in glory.


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1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

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Blog: http://www.christian...e-of-the-myths/


#21
Stranger

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I think you're misinterpreting what I am saying. Jesus was always God before he became flesh and blood but he was not Father God. Philippians 2:5-6,7. Scripture tells us he appeared as flesh, vindicated in the Spirit [cleared of blame], seen by angels...etc

 

16 And most certainly, the mystery of godliness is great:

He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the Spirit,
seen by angels,preached among the nations,
believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

 

Perhaps I misunderstood, so let me clarify.  

 

The Son who is God, was never God the Father.   And will never be God the Father.  He is God the Son.

 

God the Son became flesh.  When He became flesh, He is known as Jesus Christ.  He is still God the Son.  

 

In other words, Jesus Christ was God in the flesh.  He wasn't God the Father.  He was God the Son. 

 

Stranger


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#22
justaname

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Thanks everyone. Some great points and posts. Sorry brakelight, I didn't see the extra "s' in your comment. My apologies.
 
justaname your questions; I believe
 
1. Jesus was God and part of the Trinity pre-flesh
2. He made himself a little lower than angels [human] and lay aside his deity while in body to fulfill prophecy. He became a son to the obedience of his Father. Philippians 2:8
3. He took up his deity post-flesh and was given a name that was above every other name....
 
Hebrews1
1 Long ago God spoke to the fathers by the prophets at different times and in different ways. In these last days, He has spoken to us by His Son. God has appointed Him heir of all things and made the universe through Him. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact expression of His nature, sustaining all things by His powerful word. After making purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. So He became higher in rank than the angels, just as the name He inherited is superior to theirs.


I disagree with your conclusion. Jesus did not cease being God or forsake His divine nature rather He added human nature to His divine nature. This is the orthodox concept of the hypostatic union. Jesus did not lay aside His deity as you express, rather He suspended His divine attributes (omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience). This suspending means they were still present, but dormant during His incarnation.

God can not cease being God, or lay aside deity, since God is eternal in nature. Your concept reduces Jesus to a demigod.

demigod |ˈdemēˌɡäd|
noun
a being with partial or lesser divine status, such as a minor deity, the offspring of a god and a mortal, or a mortal raised to divine rank: some Roman emperors claimed descent from demigods such as Hercules.

Here are excerpts from a good article relating to the hypostatic union:

Only if one assumes that the divine attributes were potential rather than active does it seem possible to ta1k about a real incarnation. If the Logos enters time and space omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, his entrance is a theophany. He certainly is not a human being like us. But on the other hand, if he abandons these attributes-attributes that belong to the essence of deity-he is reduced to the level of a mere human being. In the one case the humanity is not humanity at all; in the other case divinity is not divinity. The dilemma is resolved, however, if it is assumed that all the attributes of deity are present but latent.
-------------------------------------------------

Orthodox Christology has affirmed ontologically the full humanity and full deity in the one Person Jesus. The problem of how these two natures could practically function still exists. The New Testament- -predominantly the Synoptics--reveals a Jesus who experienced limitations and finiteness. He, furthermore, did not perform supernatural works out of his inherent deity but by dependence on the Father and empowered by the Holy Spirit. However, he did not divest his deity or his attributes of deity but curtailed their exercise. Jesus was unique as the Son of God and a prophet who enjoyed an intimacy and special status with the Father. Therefore, Jesus is a realistic model for his disciples on how to live in dependence on the Father and empowered by the Holy Spirit to proclaim the Kingdom of God and minister in the supernatural as he did.
--------------------------------------------------

Jesus Christ, though fully God, was also fully man, with two natures in one person. How this relationship was expressed was never established by the orthodox creeds nor in classical Christian theology. To deny ontologically either Christ's humanity or his deity is considered heresy. However, I have argued that the writers of the New Testament saw Jesus Christ function as a finite man, empowered by the Holy Spirit at his baptism, under submission to the will of his Father and in a unique relationship with him as the Son of God and a prophet. The evidence shows that Jesus experienced limitations as any human being would face. If we say that Jesus was not finite and limited, then we must say that he was not human. Humanness entail finiteness and limitations. In order to become human and to suffer like us (Hebrews 2 and 5), by necessity, Jesus left his heavenly abode, set aside the exercise of his divine attributes while maintaining his divine nature, was conceived by the Holy Spirit in the virgin Mary, grew up as a boy and young man, and then entered ministIy after his baptism and anointing by the Spirit. This is the ultimate expression of faith. Whatever Jesus did, he did as a total human person by faith. Any other conception is an aberration.
-------------------------------------------------------

(CONCERNING PHIL 2:5-8) (Title mine)

The passage really only says that he emptied himself: that is, he emptied himself of himself (I owe this obvious but profound observation to Dr. Gordon Fee of Regent College). What does this mean? This entails what is described in verse 7b and c. These two aorist participial clauses (labon and genomerws) are coincident to the finite verb (ekenosen), and modal, as they explicate the manner in which the 'self-emptying' took place. He took the nature of a servant-which meant he had no rights whatsoever. Jesus also expressed this self-emptying by being made in human likeness. He became a man. Jesus as God took on the nature and characteristics of a slave and a man. We would argue that the language of ekenosen is metaphorical-that is, he did not literally empty himself of anything, but figuratively emptied himself of what he was when he became what he was not---a man.6
When Jesus emptied himself, he became what he was not before---a man. According to Gerald Hawthome, this means:
..., that Christ's self-giving was accomplished by taking, that his self- emptying was achieved by becoming what he was not before, that his kenosis came about not by subtraction but by addition, that his kenosis (an emptying) was in reality a plerosis (a filling). Thus, there is nothing in this crucial text that could possibly lend credence to any theory that claims that the eternal Son gave us any of his attributes in the incarnation, or that humanity is a realm which by definition excludes God. It seems, rather, to imply that there is an innate suitability of humanness for God and God for humanness, God having made human beings originally in his 'own image and likeness' (Gn. 1:27). [italics his]
..., in becoming a human being, the Son of God willed to renounce the exercise of his divine powers, attributes, prerogatives, so that he might live fully within those limitations which inhere in being truly human.7
Jesus maintained his divine nature even though he was a man. This is not inconsistent for humanness, for we may participate in the divine nature, as the following passage will disclose. Here is a theological atom- bomb that I do not believe has been given much explosive treatment for our own Christian anthropology:
his divine power has given everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. (2 Pet. 1:3-4)

Article accessed on January 24,2017: https://biblicalstud.../1993-4_311.pdf
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You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

#23
justaname

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I apologize for the rather large post above, but the hypostatic union is a difficult concept and I feel it is important to gain clarity through these detailed excerpts.

Concerning the OP.

In order to place our faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ, it is necessary to understand who this person is and what His work entailed. A failure to recognize either of these properly is to place our faith in someone other than the Biblical Jesus. This is why John speaks of antichrists in his epistle (2 John 1:7, 1 John 4:2) where the humanity of Jesus is denied. To be deceived as to who Jesus is misplaces our faith and renders the gospel powerless. Jehovah Witness theology is considered heretical because they deny the deity of Christ stating He is a little "g" god and not is God as the Father is God. Orthodox Christianity contends Jesus is the Second Person of the ontological Trinity, the Son of God, the God-man, fully God and fully man. This is the view for the biblical Jesus as well as the historical Jesus throughout orthodox Christendom or what we would call the Catholic view. Any alteration to this view fundamentally changes the focus of our faith and undermines the Gospel.
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You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

#24
Angelina

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Perhaps I misunderstood, so let me clarify.  

 

The Son who is God, was never God the Father.   And will never be God the Father.  He is God the Son.

 

God the Son became flesh.  When He became flesh, He is known as Jesus Christ.  He is still God the Son.  

 

In other words, Jesus Christ was God in the flesh.  He wasn't God the Father.  He was God the Son. 

 

Stranger

 

I don't believe that Jesus was always God the Son. John 1:1-2, John 1:14-15. I do believe that he became God's Son as per spoken by the angel Gabriel to Mary in Luke 1:32, 35. Reiterated again in Matthew 3:17 and also in Romans 1:4. JMHO :huh:


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1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

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Blog: http://www.christian...e-of-the-myths/


#25
Angelina

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I'm sorry justaname, I just don't have the time to go through all your material but I will do my best. :)

 

I disagree with your conclusion. Jesus did not cease being God or forsake His divine nature rather He added human nature to His divine nature. This is the orthodox concept of the hypostatic union. Jesus did not lay aside His deity as you express, rather He suspended His divine attributes (omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience). This suspending means they were still present, but dormant during His incarnation.

 

That's fine you are more than welcome to disagree with me after all, it is my opinion and this is a discussion forum. I was struggling with the right words and decided on "laid aside" I don't think that I ever said that Jesus ceased being God. I believe that he had a purpose to fulfill, a mandate from the Father and he needed to do that as a human being. I believe we are saying the same thing only my vocabulary is not very large nor is it as eloquent... :)

 

Bless ya!


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1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

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Blog: http://www.christian...e-of-the-myths/


#26
Angelina

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I apologize for the rather large post above, but the hypostatic union is a difficult concept and I feel it is important to gain clarity through these detailed excerpts.

Concerning the OP.

In order to place our faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ, it is necessary to understand who this person is and what His work entailed. A failure to recognize either of these properly is to place our faith in someone other than the Biblical Jesus. This is why John speaks of antichrists in his epistle (2 John 1:7, 1 John 4:2) where the humanity of Jesus is denied. To be deceived as to who Jesus is misplaces our faith and renders the gospel powerless. Jehovah Witness theology is considered heretical because they deny the deity of Christ stating He is a little "g" god and not is God as the Father is God. Orthodox Christianity contends Jesus is the Second Person of the ontological Trinity, the Son of God, the God-man, fully God and fully man. This is the view for the biblical Jesus as well as the historical Jesus throughout orthodox Christendom or what we would call the Catholic view. Any alteration to this view fundamentally changes the focus of our faith and undermines the Gospel.

 

k


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1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

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Blog: http://www.christian...e-of-the-myths/


#27
justaname

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I'm sorry justaname, I just don't have the time to go through all your material but I will do my best. :)


That's fine you are more than welcome to disagree with me after all, it is my opinion and this is a discussion forum. I was struggling with the right words and decided on "laid aside" I don't think that I ever said that Jesus ceased being God. I believe that he had a purpose to fulfill, a mandate from the Father and he needed to do that as a human being. I believe we are saying the same thing only my vocabulary is not very large nor is it as eloquent... :)

Bless ya!


Thank you so much for your humility and clarification again. Love you in the Lord dear sister! Also I apologize I did not recognize your position with the wording you gave. Perhaps I could have asked for further clarification before I commented.
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You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

#28
Stranger

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I don't believe that Jesus was always God the Son. John 1:1-2, John 1:14-15. I do believe that he became God's Son as per spoken by the angel Gabriel to Mary in Luke 1:32, 35. Reiterated again in Matthew 3:17 and also in Romans 1:4. JMHO :huh:

 

(John 17:5) " And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

 

Stranger


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#29
Walter

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Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. Hewbrews 13:8 http://biblehub.com/hebrews/13-8.htm


Edited by Walter, 14 January 2017 - 04:09 PM.

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Love always, Fr. Walter & Debbie, La./Wa. A phrase of our Lord Jesus Christ/ Matt. 6:33.

http://1stthingsfirst.ieasysite.com/


#30
Angelina

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I love you in the Lord too brother justaname and please don't give it another thought.  Just recently, a friend pointed out that I make statements but I don't go into detail because I assume they understand what I meaning :huh: and they don't. Apparently they are not mind readers ;) lol! I will endeavor to elaborate more in future. I try to be concise because I don't like being too wordy which doesn't always come across the right way.

 

(John 17:5) " And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

 

Stranger

 

Hi Stranger, one of the reasons I do not believe that Jesus was always God's Son is because scripture tells us in John 3:16 that Jesus was God's only begotten son. This indicates being Fathered ~ to procreate or generate offspring. This makes sense when Jesus was born into the world by the Holy Spirit but it does not work well if he were already the Son of God prior to being born. A begotten son is not eternal. The idea that Jesus was the Son in heaven prior to coming down to earth via a virgin birth, suggests that he had a beginning and as far as I understand, the second person of the Godhead is God [Matthew 1:23, Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6] and he has always existed ergo ~ eternal. JMHO :huh:

 

Bless ya!


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1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

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Blog: http://www.christian...e-of-the-myths/





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