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Jesus is God or Lord?

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#31
Stranger

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I love you in the Lord too brother justaname and please don't give it another thought.  Just recently, a friend pointed out that I make statements but I don't go into detail because I assume they understand what I meaning :huh: and they don't. Apparently they are not mind readers ;) lol! I will endeavor to elaborate more in future. I try to be concise because I don't like being too wordy which doesn't always come across the right way.

 

 

Hi Stranger, one of the reasons I do not believe that Jesus was always God's Son is because scripture tells us in John 3:16 that Jesus was God's only begotten son. This indicates being Fathered ~ to procreate or generate offspring. This makes sense when Jesus was born into the world by the Holy Spirit but it does not work well if he were already the Son of God prior to being born. A begotten son is not eternal. The idea that Jesus was the Son in heaven prior to coming down to earth via a virgin birth, suggests that he had a beginning and as far as I understand, the second person of the Godhead is God [Matthew 1:23, Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6] and he has always existed ergo ~ eternal. JMHO :huh:

 

Bless ya!

 

I understand what you are saying but I do disagree. That Jesus was God's 'only begotten' does indicate being Fathered.    And, the incarnation was certainly the beginning of when the Son had a body.  But that in no way indicates the beginning of The Son.   Note what (Is.9:6) says, "...a child is born...a son is given...."  The Son was not born.  The Son was given.  The Son was always eternally with the Father.

 

And, the term 'only begotten' does not refer to the virgin birth of Christ. It refers to the resurrection of Christ. (Acts 13:33) "God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.  And concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise I will give you the sure mercies of David."   This too is a beginning.  It's a beginning where a body combined with the Spirit of the individual raised by the Father making Jesus Christ the 'Firstborn of many brethren'.  (Rom. 8:29 " For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first born among many brethren."    Which is you and I who are also, 'born again'.  The resurrection is our birthing room as it was for Christ.    (1Peter 1:3) " Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,"

 

None of these things mean or indicate in any way that the Son did not always exist with the Father, and Holy Spirit.    

 

Please consider these things sister.   As well as (John 17:5)

 

Stranger


Edited by Stranger, 15 January 2017 - 06:52 AM.

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#32
Dcopymope

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I understand what you are saying but I do disagree. That Jesus was God's 'only begotten' does indicate being Fathered.    And, the incarnation was certainly the beginning of when the Son had a body.  But that in no way indicates the beginning of The Son.   Note what (Is.9:6) says, "...a child is born...a son is given...."  The Son was not born.  The Son was given.  The Son was always eternally with the Father.

 

And, the term 'only begotten' does not refer to the virgin birth of Christ. It refers to the resurrection of Christ. (Acts 13:33) "God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.  And concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise I will give you the sure mercies of David."   This too is a beginning.  It's a beginning where a body combined with the Spirit of the individual raised by the Father making Jesus Christ the 'Firstborn of many brethren'.  (Rom. 8:29 " For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first born among many brethren."    Which is you and I who are also, 'born again'.  The resurrection is our birthing room as it was for Christ.    (1Peter 1:3) " Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,"

 

None of these things mean or indicate in any way that the Son did not always exist with the Father, and Holy Spirit.    

 

Please consider these things sister.   As well as (John 17:5)

 

Stranger

 

Agreed, if Jesus is not God, then that makes him a created being and NOT begotten of God. Nothing else is ever stated to be begotten of the Father except Jesus. There is no in between, you are either created or you aren't, and the only thing stated to be not created is Yahweh. I'm sure no one believes that they are saved in the name of a created being do they? Can a created being claim to be an intercessor between the Father and the creation? Can a created being claim to be before all things and the creator of all things at the same time? Is it logical to believe that a created being can reconcile what God created unto God? Can a created being claim to be one with the Father? Can a created being claim that nothing in heaven or earth gets to the Father but through him? That would be quite blasphemous and an oxy-moron, wouldn't it? 


Edited by Dcopymope, 15 January 2017 - 10:04 AM.

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#33
Angelina

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I understand what you are saying but I do disagree. That Jesus was God's 'only begotten' does indicate being Fathered.    And, the incarnation was certainly the beginning of when the Son had a body.  But that in no way indicates the beginning of The Son.   Note what (Is.9:6) says, "...a child is born...a son is given...."  The Son was not born.  The Son was given.  The Son was always eternally with the Father.

 

And, the term 'only begotten' does not refer to the virgin birth of Christ. It refers to the resurrection of Christ. (Acts 13:33) "God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.  And concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise I will give you the sure mercies of David."   This too is a beginning.  It's a beginning where a body combined with the Spirit of the individual raised by the Father making Jesus Christ the 'Firstborn of many brethren'.  (Rom. 8:29 " For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first born among many brethren."    Which is you and I who are also, 'born again'.  The resurrection is our birthing room as it was for Christ.    (1Peter 1:3) " Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,"

 

None of these things mean or indicate in any way that the Son did not always exist with the Father, and Holy Spirit.    

 

Please consider these things sister.   As well as (John 17:5)

 

Stranger

 

Hi Stranger, thanks for your input. I also understand what you are saying...This is my opinion which it does not necessarily reflect the forums position in any way. You quoted Isaiah 9:6 which can easily correspond with Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:23 as giving birth to/conceiving a son. Luke 1:35 also states  "And the angel answered her, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God." ESV. This verse indicates a future tense and not present tense. Not all biblical scholars believe in the doctrine of eternal sonship and there are evangelicals on both sides of this debate.

 

John1:1-3 tells us that Jesus is God. John 1:14 tells us that he became flesh and lived among us. Those who were with him observed his glory as the only begotten. HCSB says ~"the one and only son from the Father". This does not discount the idea that those who were observing him were not referring to his virgin birth.

 

Hebrews 1:5 denotes the idea that the Father has gotten a Son ~ For to which of the angels did He ever say, You are My Son; today I have become Your Father, or again, I will be His Father, and He will be My Son?

 

If Jesus was already God's eternal son, the Father would not have needed to declare a specific day for the event to take place. I will be His Father, and He will be My Son? Future tense.

 

You quoted John 17:5 which is my favorite chapter. Jesus was speaking as one who was still in the flesh and in obedience to God's mandate which was about to be fulfilled and as one who came into the world as his only [begotten] son. They are one but at this moment in time, he is still the son.

 

Bless ya!


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#34
Angelina

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Agreed, if Jesus is not God, then that makes him a created being and NOT begotten of God. Nothing else is ever stated to be begotten of the Father except Jesus. There is no in between, you are either created or you aren't, and the only thing stated to be not created is Yahweh. I'm sure no one believes that they are saved in the name of a created being do they? Can a created being claim to be an intercessor between the Father and the creation? Can a created being claim to be before all things and the creator of all things at the same time? Is it logical to believe that a created being can reconcile what God created unto God? Can a created being claim to be one with the Father? Can a created being claim that nothing in heaven or earth gets to the Father but through him? That would be quite blasphemous and an oxy-moron, wouldn't it? 

 

Hey Dcopymope, no one here is saying the Jesus is not God. The issue seems to be more about his eternal sonship. We were discussing "begotten" in the manner of being born in the flesh through the power of the Holy Spirit in comparison to eternal sonship and as far as I understand "begotten son" being a position after he was resurrected rather than before.. I believe that Jesus is God and became the son for the sake of mankind, the moment his holy seed was planted. JMHO :)


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#35
Stranger

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Hi Stranger, thanks for your input. I also understand what you are saying...This is my opinion which it does not necessarily reflect the forums position in any way. You quoted Isaiah 9:6 which can easily correspond with Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:23 as giving birth to/conceiving a son. Luke 1:35 also states  "And the angel answered her, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God." ESV. This verse indicates a future tense and not present tense. Not all biblical scholars believe in the doctrine of eternal sonship and there are evangelicals on both sides of this debate.

 

John1:1-3 tells us that Jesus is God. John 1:14 tells us that he became flesh and lived among us. Those who were with him observed his glory as the only begotten. HCSB says ~"the one and only son from the Father". This does not discount the idea that those who were observing him were not referring to his virgin birth.

 

Hebrews 1:5 denotes the idea that the Father has gotten a Son ~ For to which of the angels did He ever say, You are My Son; today I have become Your Father, or again, I will be His Father, and He will be My Son?

 

If Jesus was already God's eternal son, the Father would not have needed to declare a specific day for the event to take place. I will be His Father, and He will be My Son? Future tense.

 

You quoted John 17:5 which is my favorite chapter. Jesus was speaking as one who was still in the flesh and in obedience to God's mandate which was about to be fulfilled and as one who came into the world as his only [begotten] son. They are one but at this moment in time, he is still the son.

 

Bless ya!

 

I don't follow.  Yes, the passages in Isaiah, and Matthew, and Luke indicate that the child is deity, is the Son of God.  In Luke the tense is naturally future because the child hasn't been born yet.  

 

Yes, (John 1:3,14) tells us that Jesus is God.  I have no problem there.

 

Yes (Heb.1:5) does say the Father begot the Son, and on a particular day.  That I already showed you in my last post.  See (Acts 13:33).  That specific day was the resurrection, not the incarnation.  (Heb.1:6) supports this because it says it is speaking of the time when the 'firstbegotten' is brought into the world.  Just because the resurrected Christ was a new creation, does not mean that the Son did not co-exist with the Father throughout all eternity.  Jesus was the first, you and I are somewhere down the line.  

 

The term 'only begotten' refers to Christ as the One in whom all the promises are given.  The covenant one.  As far as numbers go, Christ is not the only begotten, because you and I and all other believers are begotten also.   But only Christ is the Covenant One.  Remember what God said to Abraham when he told him to sacrifice Isaac?  (Gen.22:2) "And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac,..."  But Isaac wasn't his only son.  He had Ishmael already.  But Isaac was the Covenant son.  Only begotten speaks to the Covenant son.  First begotten speaks to Christ as the first One raised from the dead by His Spirit giving Him new life.  But, even though this was a first time event, doesn't mean the Son did not always exist with the Father.  

 

I don't understand your statement on (John 17:5).  Jesus is talking to the Father.  He is not talking to Himself.

 

 

Stranger


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#36
Angelina

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Hi Stranger,

Yes (Heb.1:5) does say the Father begot the Son, and on a particular day.  That I already showed you in my last post.  See (Acts 13:33).  That specific day was the resurrection, not the incarnation.  (Heb.1:6) supports this because it says it is speaking of the time when the 'firstbegotten' is brought into the world.  Just because the resurrected Christ was a new creation, does not mean that the Son did not co-exist with the Father throughout all eternity.  Jesus was the first, you and I are somewhere down the line.

 

I don't agree with your premise that scripture was referring to "begotten" as per the resurrection "only" but that scripture refers to the begotten Son of God from birth all the way through to the resurrection. The resurrection was the fulfillment of prophecy as per Acts 13:33 but that does not mean that Jesus was not God's son since birth?

 

Just because the resurrected Christ was a new creation, does not mean that the Son did not co-exist with the Father throughout all eternity.  Jesus was the first, you and I are somewhere down the line.

 

I don't know why you said the above? It doesn't seem to fit into our conversation in any way? :huh: I think we might be talking past one another....

 

The term 'only begotten' refers to Christ as the One in whom all the promises are given.  The covenant one.  As far as numbers go, Christ is not the only begotten, because you and I and all other believers are begotten also.   But only Christ is the Covenant One.  Remember what God said to Abraham when he told him to sacrifice Isaac?  (Gen.22:2) "And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac,..."  But Isaac wasn't his only son.  He had Ishmael already.  But Isaac was the Covenant son.  Only begotten speaks to the Covenant son.  First begotten speaks to Christ as the first One raised from the dead by His Spirit giving Him new life.  But, even though this was a first time event, doesn't mean the Son did not always exist with the Father.

 

The word "begotten" is a past particle of beget which refers to being Fathered or producing an offspring. If the writers did not want to confuse such a word, they would not have placed it in John 3:16. Many bibles cite the word "begotten" as one who has fathered offspring.

 

The term 'only begotten' refers to Christ as the One in whom all the promises are given.  The covenant one.  As far as numbers go, Christ is not the only begotten, because you and I and all other believers are begotten also.   But only Christ is the Covenant One.  Remember what God said to Abraham when he told him to sacrifice Isaac?  (Gen.22:2) "And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac,..."  But Isaac wasn't his only son.  He had Ishmael already.  But Isaac was the Covenant son.  Only begotten speaks to the Covenant son.  First begotten speaks to Christ as the first One raised from the dead by His Spirit giving Him new life.  But, even though this was a first time event, doesn't mean the Son did not always exist with the Father.

 

I don't agree. Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of the Father. I do not believe that was his position prior to being born of a woman through the Holy Spirit [the doctrine of eternal sonship]. He came from the kingdom of heaven and he returned to the kingdom. He fulfilled all that was spoken about him by the prophets and he was given a name higher than any other name. You referred to Isaac. He was the from the line in which the promise would come. Well I have never said that Jesus never existed before being born into the world...

 

I don't understand your statement on (John 17:5).  Jesus is talking to the Father.  He is not talking to Himself.

 

I didn't say that Jesus was talking to himself. Please read again...and I hope this did not confuse you. I have edited it to make it as clear as I can... :huh:

 

my post from #33

You quoted John 17:5 which is my favorite chapter. Jesus was speaking as one someone who was still in the flesh and in obedience to God's mandate which was about to be fulfilled and as one someone who came into the world as his only [begotten] son.  They are one [John 17:11, 20-21] but at this moment in time, he is still the son.

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Blog: http://www.christian...e-of-the-myths/


#37
mjrhealth

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Mat_3:17  And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

 

I would of though that would of being enough, Jesus is Gods son born from His weed which is His word that He speaks.

 

Mat_3:17  And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

 

How do you think Mary got pregnant.

 

Luk 1:35  And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God

 

God didnt come to earth, He was still dwelling in Heaven and in the temple, Holy of Holies with teh High Priests

 

Untill

 

Mat 27:51  And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

 

than God came out so we could walk with him as Adam did because of what Jesus did.

 

And Jesus was just like His father as any father would hope there children would be like them, thats why He said, "if you have seeing me you have seeing the father"

 

Because

 

Joh_5:36  But I have greater witness than  that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

And so Jesus being the son of God and being in His likeness, which is Gods ultimate aim for all His sons, demonstrated who His father is by showing man the love God has for us.

 

1Jn_3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

And so, in the end God will have lots of sons Just like Christ because of Christ.


Edited by mjrhealth, 16 January 2017 - 12:47 AM.

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The words that I SPEAK they are spirit and they are life. You search the scriptures, reading them thinking they bring you life, and they testify of Me yet you wont come to me so that you can have eternal life.


#38
Stranger

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Hi Stranger,

 

I don't agree with your premise that scripture was referring to "begotten" as per the resurrection "only" but that scripture refers to the begotten Son of God from birth all the way through to the resurrection. The resurrection was the fulfillment of prophecy as per Acts 13:33 but that does not mean that Jesus was not God's son since birth?

 

 

I don't know why you said the above? It doesn't seem to fit into our conversation in any way? :huh: I think we might be talking past one another....

 

 

The word "begotten" is a past particle of beget which refers to being Fathered or producing an offspring. If the writers did not want to confuse such a word, they would not have placed it in John 3:16. Many bibles cite the word "begotten" as one who has fathered offspring.

 

 

I don't agree. Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of the Father. I do not believe that was his position prior to being born of a woman through the Holy Spirit [the doctrine of eternal sonship]. He came from the kingdom of heaven and he returned to the kingdom. He fulfilled all that was spoken about him by the prophets and he was given a name higher than any other name. You referred to Isaac. He was the from the line in which the promise would come. Well I have never said that Jesus never existed before being born into the world...

 

 

I didn't say that Jesus was talking to himself. Please read again...and I hope this did not confuse you. I have edited it to make it as clear as I can... :huh:

 

my post from #33

 

Concerning the term 'only begotten', John 3:16 does not take away from the meaning I gave which is that Christ is the Covenant Son.  I believe that (Acts 13:33), which is a quote of (Psalm 2:7),  is clear that it was a certain day, and that day was the resurrection.   And also, it would be a false term if it did not mean the Covenant Son, because Jesus was not the 'only begotten' numerically.  You and I are 'sons' begotten of God also.  Which is why Jesus is also called the 'Firstborn of many brethren'.   

 

Just because the Son has a new beginning, either being born in the flesh at the incarnation or  being resurrected, and the term 'begotten' is used, does not indicate in any way that the Son did not exist throughout eternity with the Father.  

 

Concerning John 17:5:

 

1.You say "Jesus was speaking as someone who was still in the flesh".  I say yes, and this Jesus was God the Son in the flesh.  

 

2. You say Jesus was "as someone who came into the world as his only [begotten] son."  I say yes, and before God the Son was begotten in humanity, be it incarnation or resurrection, He existed with the Father eternally. 

 

3. You say, "They are one [John 17:11, 20-21] but at this moment and time, he is still the son."   This makes no sense to me.  Verse 5 is clear that the Son existed with the Father before the world began.  The Son is always the Son, whether before He became man, or when He became man, or after He was resurrected.  He is the Son today at the right hand of the Father.  

 

What do you mean when you say 'They are one'?

 

Stranger


Edited by Stranger, 16 January 2017 - 03:49 AM.

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#39
Angelina

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Concerning the term 'only begotten', John 3:16 does not take away from the meaning I gave which is that Christ is the Covenant Son.  I believe that (Acts 13:33), which is a quote of (Psalm 2:7),  is clear that it was a certain day, and that day was the resurrection.   And also, it would be a false term if it did not mean the Covenant Son, because Jesus was not the 'only begotten' numerically.  You and I are 'sons' begotten of God also.  Which is why Jesus is also called the 'Firstborn of many brethren'.

I did not think that we were discussing the Covenant here but okay. My impression if I understand this correctly, is that you believe the resurrection was the day Jesus became God's son.  What I was trying to point out was that God called him son right at the beginning of his being born into the world Luke 1:35, when he was baptized and began his ministry Matthew 3:17 and even before he was born through the O/T prophets Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6

 

added: Jesus was called the first born of many brethren because no one had ever been raised from the dead and ascended into heaven. He was also called the firstborn from the dead ~1 Colossians 1:18, Revelation 1:5. The firstborn among many brothers ~ Romans 8:29.

 

Just because the Son has a new beginning, either being born in the flesh at the incarnation or  being resurrected, and the term 'begotten' is used, does not indicate in any way that the Son did not exist throughout eternity with the Father.

Please give me scripture to back up your thesis that Jesus was the Son in heaven prior to coming down to earth in human form through the virgin birth....

 

Concerning John 17:5:1.You say "Jesus was speaking as someone who was still in the flesh".  I say yes, and this Jesus was God the Son in the flesh.

Good! This is what I understood was our main point of contention. My understanding was that you believed, based on your comments, that Jesus was not God's Son until the resurrection.

 

2. You say Jesus was "as someone who came into the world as his only [begotten] son."  I say yes, and before God the Son was begotten in humanity, be it incarnation or resurrection, He existed with the Father eternally.

Of course he did...please go back and read my comments again but I do not necessarily agree with the doctrine of eternal sonship.

 

3. You say, "They are one [John 17:11, 20-21] but at this moment and time, he is still the son."   This makes no sense to me.  Verse 5 is clear that the Son existed with the Father before the world began.  The Son is always the Son, whether before He became man, or when He became man, or after He was resurrected.  He is the Son today at the right hand of the Father.

 

...are you kidding me???? :huh: This is a strawman's argument. Our point of contention was that you believed that Jesus became God's son at the resurrection and I was saying he was God's son at the beginning of his being born into the world and right up to his death and resurrection. Now you are changing your argument to the doctrine of eternal sonship. I think you need to go back on some of the comments we have made....


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#40
Stranger

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I did not think that we were discussing the Covenant here but okay. My impression if I understand this correctly, is that you believe the resurrection was the day Jesus became God's son.  What I was trying to point out was that God called him son right at the beginning of his being born into the world Luke 1:35, when he was baptized and began his ministry Matthew 3:17 and even before he was born through the O/T prophets Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6

 

added: Jesus was called the first born of many brethren because no one had ever been raised from the dead and ascended into heaven. He was also called the firstborn from the dead ~1 Colossians 1:18, Revelation 1:5. The firstborn among many brothers ~ Romans 8:29.

 

Please give me scripture to back up your thesis that Jesus was the Son in heaven prior to coming down to earth in human form through the virgin birth....

 

Good! This is what I understood was our main point of contention. My understanding was that you believed, based on your comments, that Jesus was not God's Son until the resurrection.

 

Of course he did...please go back and read my comments again but I do not necessarily agree with the doctrine of eternal sonship.

 

 

...are you kidding me???? :huh: This is a strawman's argument. Our point of contention was that you believed that Jesus became God's son at the resurrection and I was saying he was God's son at the beginning of his being born into the world and right up to his death and resurrection. Now you are changing your argument to the doctrine of eternal sonship. I think you need to go back on some of the comments we have made....

 

The resurrection was the day that The Son, who existed with God from all eternity, became begotten of God.  He was not begotten as The Son who existed with God the Father in all eternity.  He was begotten at the resurrection.  (Acts 13:33) 

 

So, you do not believe that Jesus as 'Firstborn among many brethren' speaks to you and I as born sons of God?

 

I gave you John 17:5 which is clear.  The Son is talking to The Father.   He testified that He Himself existed with the Father before the world began.

 

I have always said that God the Son existed with God the Father throughout all eternity.   I have always said that when The Son, who existed with God throughout eternity, was declared as begotten of God the Father, it was at the resurrection. (Acts 13:33)  

 

Well, if you believe the Son existed always with the Father throughout all eternity, why deny the Son's eternal sonship?

 

I have not changed my belief or argument at all.  I believe you and I don't communicate well.  

 

Stranger


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#41
Odn

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Hi Stranger, thanks for your input. I also understand what you are saying...This is my opinion which it does not necessarily reflect the forums position in any way. You quoted Isaiah 9:6 which can easily correspond with Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:23 as giving birth to/conceiving a son. Luke 1:35 also states  "And the angel answered her, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God." ESV. This verse indicates a future tense and not present tense. Not all biblical scholars believe in the doctrine of eternal sonship and there are evangelicals on both sides of this debate.

 

John1:1-3 tells us that Jesus is God. John 1:14 tells us that he became flesh and lived among us. Those who were with him observed his glory as the only begotten. HCSB says ~"the one and only son from the Father". This does not discount the idea that those who were observing him were not referring to his virgin birth.

 

 

 

Greetings Angelina, I understand that John 1:3 says that "the Word was God", but can we just ignore everything written before or after that verse, .. you know what I mean?

First, who was the Word?

Well, John 1 says "the Word became flesh", and in other Scriptures we learn that the Word of God is also named Jesus Christ, I doubt anyone would disagree with that, right?

 

Now if "the Word" was truly God, John chapter 1 would not make any sense, for we would have to read it with an added Trinitarian interpretation like so:

 

John 1:1 In the beginning was the God, and the God was with God, and the God was God. He, God was with God in the beginning. Through God all things were made; without God nothing was made that has been made.

 

I'm sure you agree that God is Spirit, yes?

That "no one has ever seen God", just as no one has seen our mind/spirit, .. do we still agree?

That God has always used His creation (wind, thunder, Fiery-Angel in a bush that looked like it's on fire, Prophets, even a donkey) to communicate with man, .. right?

God also communicated in these last Days by sending His Only Begotten Son Word, who by His Spirit (God is Holy and He is Spirit) came upon Mary, transplanted the DNA information of His Son Word into Mary's egg, and Jesus was born.

 

The Bible is clear that God sent His Son, .. not Jesus, but it was the 'Word' that became flesh, who was later named Jesus.

 

So we understand that Conscious Infinite/Eternity (AKA God) created a place within Himself (there is nothing besides or outside of Infinite) He calls Heaven where God beget a Son whom He named Word. This signified a beginning with our Holy Infinite and Eternal Spirit God. Then through the Word (His son) God created all things in Heaven and earth, nothing, that means not one thing that has ever been created was created without His Son.

 

Just like the image God created of Himself and His Son Word, man, remember? "Let us make man in our own image"

Adam in the image of God, and Eve in the image of His Son Word.

Just as Eve was Adam before God took her out of Adam (rib), the Word was God before God beget him from Himself.

 

God bless us all so we may be of One mind, one heart and soul with God. We have to remember that God is NOT divided, especially into three deities who reside in the supernatural realm.


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#42
lforrest

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As for eternal sonship, I don't see an issue that he existed before he was born. That is in line with his eternal nature.

Wasn't Jesus also referred to as the Lamb of God? That title was given to him long before he went to the cross.
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#43
justaname

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The Nicene Creed:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father the only begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made both in heaven and on earth; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man; he suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. And in the Holy Ghost. But those who say: ‘There was once when he was not;’ and ‘He was not before he was made;’ and ‘He was made out of nothing,’ or, ‘He is of another substance’ or ‘essence,’ or ‘The Son of God is created,’ or ‘changeable,’ or ‘alterable’—they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.
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You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

#44
Angelina

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Hey Justaname and lforrest,

I understand that the Nicene creed had adopted the doctrine of eternal sonship which is fine but there are many believers out there who do not agree with this particular doctrine. That's fine with me whether believers accept that theology or not. I for one am not convinced however, it does not take anything away from the salvation message and that to me is the most important thing here. :)


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#45
Angelina

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Greetings Angelina, I understand that John 1:3 says that "the Word was God", but can we just ignore everything written before or after that verse, .. you know what I mean?

First, who was the Word?

Well, John 1 says "the Word became flesh", and in other Scriptures we learn that the Word of God is also named Jesus Christ, I doubt anyone would disagree with that, right?

 

Now if "the Word" was truly God, John chapter 1 would not make any sense, for we would have to read it with an added Trinitarian interpretation like so:

 

John 1:1 In the beginning was the God, and the God was with God, and the God was God. He, God was with God in the beginning. Through God all things were made; without God nothing was made that has been made.

 

I'm sure you agree that God is Spirit, yes?

That "no one has ever seen God", just as no one has seen our mind/spirit, .. do we still agree?

That God has always used His creation (wind, thunder, Fiery-Angel in a bush that looked like it's on fire, Prophets, even a donkey) to communicate with man, .. right?

 

Hi Odn, I agree

 

God also communicated in these last Days by sending His Only Begotten Son Word, who by His Spirit (God is Holy and He is Spirit) came upon Mary, transplanted the DNA information of His Son Word into Mary's egg, and Jesus was born.
The Bible is clear that God sent His Son, .. not Jesus, but it was the 'Word' that became flesh, who was later named Jesus.So we understand that Conscious Infinite/Eternity (AKA God) created a place within Himself (there is nothing besides or outside of Infinite) He calls Heaven where God beget a Son whom He named Word. This signified a beginning with our Holy Infinite and Eternal Spirit God. Then through the Word (His son) God created all things in Heaven and earth, nothing, that means not one thing that has ever been created was created without His Son.

 

When did God beget a son in heaven?

 

Just like the image God created of Himself and His Son Word, man, remember? "Let us make man in our own image Adam in the image of God, and Eve in the image of His Son Word.Just as Eve was Adam before God took her out of Adam (rib), the Word was God before God beget him from Himself.

 

So you are saying that God created his son? the word? The Son is created?

Ohhhh...I think I'm getting what you are saying :huh: They were one and God Almighty  pulled out "Word" from out of himself and "Word" although he existed eternally, became a separate spiritual being..Is this what you mean?  :) 

 

God bless us all so we may be of One mind, one heart and soul with God. We have to remember that God is NOT divided, especially into three deities who reside in the supernatural realm.

 

Well that actually makes a lot of sense when you put it that way Odn. Thank you :D :D :D

 

They [ 3]  were there in Genesis 1:1-5 and again in John1:1-5


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1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

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#46
Angelina

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Hi Stranger,

 

The resurrection was the day that The Son, who existed with God from all eternity, became begotten of God.  He was not begotten as The Son who existed with God the Father in all eternity.  He was begotten at the resurrection.  (Acts 13:33)

 

Sorry, I don't agree with you. I think Jesus was God's begotten son when he came into being as a human while in the womb of Mary through the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

So, you do not believe that Jesus as 'Firstborn among many brethren' speaks to you and I as born sons of God?

 

If you had read my post you would have noted that I said ~ Jesus was called the first born of many brethren because no one had ever been raised from the dead and ascended into heaven. He was also called the firstborn from the dead ~1 Colossians 1:18, Revelation 1:5. The firstborn among many brothers ~ Romans 8:29.

 

He was the first and then there were the firstfruits and all those who believe in him by faith....including us...

 

I gave you John 17:5 which is clear.  The Son is talking to The Father.   He testified that He Himself existed with the Father before the world began.

I have no issue with that and if you had read my posts, you would have noted that...

 

I have always said that God the Son existed with God the Father throughout all eternity.   I have always said that when The Son, who existed with God throughout eternity, was declared as begotten of God the Father, it was at the resurrection. (Acts 13:33)

 

I have always believed that God Almighty is eternal and God the word was with him as well as God the Holy Spirit. God almighty is the Father because he had a son who was born into the world from a woman and the Holy Spirit. His name was Jesus the Messiah, the anointed one. He was God's son on earth and his mandate was to fulfill Father God's plan of redemption through Christ's powerful work on the cross...


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1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

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#47
justaname

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Hey Justaname and lforrest,
I understand that the Nicene creed had adopted the doctrine of eternal sonship which is fine but there are many believers out there who do not agree with this particular doctrine. That's fine with me whether believers accept that theology or not. I for one am not convinced however, it does not take anything away from the salvation message and that to me is the most important thing here. :)


Agreed...
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You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

#48
Stranger

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Hi Stranger,

 

 

Sorry, I don't agree with you. I think Jesus was God's begotten son when he came into being as a human while in the womb of Mary through the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

 

If you had read my post you would have noted that I said ~ Jesus was called the first born of many brethren because no one had ever been raised from the dead and ascended into heaven. He was also called the firstborn from the dead ~1 Colossians 1:18, Revelation 1:5. The firstborn among many brothers ~ Romans 8:29.

 

He was the first and then there were the firstfruits and all those who believe in him by faith....including us...

 

I have no issue with that and if you had read my posts, you would have noted that...

 

 

I have always believed that God Almighty is eternal and God the word was with him as well as God the Holy Spirit. God almighty is the Father because he had a son who was born into the world from a woman and the Holy Spirit. His name was Jesus the Messiah, the anointed one. He was God's son on earth and his mandate was to fulfill Father God's plan of redemption through Christ's powerful work on the cross...

 

But (Acts 13:33) says differently.  "...in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee."  Resurrection day.

 

If you have no issue with what I said concerning (John 17:5), then why do you have an issue with the eternality of the Son?  "..with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

 

Stranger


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#49
Angelina

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Hi Stranger,

 

But (Acts 13:33) says differently.  "...in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee."  Resurrection day

 

I can't see how it is any different from the verses I have already quoted incl ~ Matthew 2:15, Matthew 3:17, Matthew 17:5, Luke 1:35...

 

If you have no issue with what I said concerning (John 17:5), then why do you have an issue with the eternality of the Son?  "..with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

 

...because the Word was with God Almighty before he began his ministry on earth but that does not mean that he had the title of Son prior to that, while in heaven....

 

Be Blessed!


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#50
Stranger

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Hi Stranger,

 

 

I can't see how it is any different from the verses I have already quoted incl ~ Matthew 2:15, Matthew 3:17, Matthew 17:5, Luke 1:35...

 

 

...because the Word was with God Almighty before he began his ministry on earth but that does not mean that he had the title of Son prior to that, while in heaven....

 

Be Blessed!

 

 

It is different because:

 

1.  Matt. 2:15, 3:17, 17:5, and Lu. 1:35 speak to Jesus as the Son of God.  As he was.  He was always The Son, unbegotten.  At the incarnation, a body was prepared the Son.  But He was not begotten.

 

2. But The Son, is  begotten of the Father at the resurrection.  "This day have I begotten thee".  (Acts 13:33)

 

 

Concerning Christ's title of the Son prior to the incarnation:

 

(Pro. 30:4)  "Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended?  who hath gathered the wind in his fists?  who hath bound the waters in a garment/ who hath established all the ends of the earth?  what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

 

(John 3:13)  "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

 

Stranger


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#51
Angelina

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1.  Matt. 2:15, 3:17, 17:5, and Lu. 1:35 speak to Jesus as the Son of God.  As he was.  He was always The Son, unbegotten.  At the incarnation, a body was prepared the Son.  But He was not begotten.

2. But The Son, is  begotten of the Father at the resurrection.  "This day have I begotten thee".  (Acts 13:33)

 

So you are saying that although Jesus was born of a virgin, born by the Holy Spirit, he was not begotten [meaning Fathered or being an offspring] but that his becoming begotten began at the resurrection? Yet Hebrews 11 says ~

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,[G3439] In reference to John3:16

 

Concerning Christ's title of the Son prior to the incarnation:

(Pro. 30:4)  "Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended?  who hath gathered the wind in his fists?  who hath bound the waters in a garment/ who hath established all the ends of the earth?  what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

(John 3:13)  "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

 

So who was he when he ascended into heaven? The Son of God or the Son of man?

 

Please also note the meaning of begotten in these verses;

Psalm 2:7 Begotten ~ yâlad H3205
A primitive root; to bear young; causatively to beget; medically to act as midwife; specifically to show lineage: - bear, beget, birth ([-day]), born, (make to) bring forth (children, young), bring up, calve, child, come, be delivered (of a child), time of delivery, gender, hatch, labour, (do the office of a) midwife, declare pedigrees, be the son of, (woman in, woman that) travail (-eth, -ing woman).

 

John 3:16 Begotten ~ monogenēs G3439
From G3441 and G1096; only born, that is, sole: - only (begotten, child).
G3441 monos Probably from G3306; remaining, that is, sole or single; by implication mere: - alone, only, by themselves.

 

Act  13:33 Begotten ~ gennaō G1080
From a variation of G1085; to procreate (properly of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively to regenerate: - bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.
G1085 genos ~ From G1096; kin (abstractly or concretely, literally or figuratively, individually or collectively): - born, country (-man), diversity, generation, kind (-red), nation, offspring, stock

 

Blessings!!!


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#52
Stranger

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So you are saying that although Jesus was born of a virgin, born by the Holy Spirit, he was not begotten [meaning Fathered or being an offspring] but that his becoming begotten began at the resurrection? Yet Hebrews 11 says ~

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,[G3439] In reference to John3:16

 

 

So who was he when he ascended into heaven? The Son of God or the Son of man?

 

Please also note the meaning of begotten in these verses;

Psalm 2:7 Begotten ~ yâlad H3205
A primitive root; to bear young; causatively to beget; medically to act as midwife; specifically to show lineage: - bear, beget, birth ([-day]), born, (make to) bring forth (children, young), bring up, calve, child, come, be delivered (of a child), time of delivery, gender, hatch, labour, (do the office of a) midwife, declare pedigrees, be the son of, (woman in, woman that) travail (-eth, -ing woman).

 

John 3:16 Begotten ~ monogenēs G3439
From G3441 and G1096; only born, that is, sole: - only (begotten, child).
G3441 monos Probably from G3306; remaining, that is, sole or single; by implication mere: - alone, only, by themselves.

 

Act  13:33 Begotten ~ gennaō G1080
From a variation of G1085; to procreate (properly of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively to regenerate: - bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.
G1085 genos ~ From G1096; kin (abstractly or concretely, literally or figuratively, individually or collectively): - born, country (-man), diversity, generation, kind (-red), nation, offspring, stock

 

Blessings!!!

 

Yes.  Jesus was born of a virgin, of the Holy Ghost, but not begotten of God at the incarnation.  As (Heb.10:5) says, "Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:"  

 

Concerning Abraham and Isaac, I mentioned this before.  Isaac is called the 'only begotten'.  But in reality he wasn't the only begotten.  Ishmael was the first son of Abraham.  But Isaac was the Covenant Son.  The one in whom all the promises of God in Abraham would be passed on.   Just like Jesus is the 'only begotten' in that in Him are all the promises given.  But in reality, He is not the only begotten numerically because all who are born-again are also sons of God.  

 

It is God who chose the 'birthing place'.  It is He Who chose the method of birth knowing that others would be born later to Him also.  And as (Acts 13:33) clearly states, "this day have I begotten thee", it is at the resurrection.  Just as (1Peter 1:3) says also.  "begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."

 

When Jesus ascended into Heaven He was and is The Son of God and The Son of Man.  The God Man.  

 

Stranger


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#53
Angelina

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Okay well I've just about had my share of this conversation. We are just going back and forth with the same conversation and not getting anywhere so I'm going to close it. Thanks for your input. We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

Bless ya!


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