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AN OVERVIEW OF THE BIBLE:

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#1
H. Richard

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I believe that studying the Bible is not taking a set of scriptures and developing a doctrine but taking it as God telling us of His dealing with mankind with real events.
 
I have done this and set my study up with the following captions.
 
AN OVERVIEW OF THE BIBLE:
 
I thought I would like to pen what I feel, IMHO, is an overview (the big picture) of the Bible. First let me make it clear that in my understanding, the entire Bible is written "FOR US" but not all of it is written "TO US." I believe this fact “MUST” be understood in order to understand the Bible. If we don’t we will always be trying to put square pegs into round holes and round pegs into square holes.
 
A. THE AGE OF GOD'S MERCY:
 
B. THE AGE OF THE NATION OF ISRAEL:
 
C. THE AGE OF THE LAW:
 
D. THE ARRIVAL OF THE MESSIAH AND HIS PURPOSE:
 
E. WHAT HAPPENED TO THE NATION OF ISRAEL?
 
F. THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD AS GIVEN TO PAUL:
 
G. THE OLD REPLACED BY THE NEW:
 
My study is 8 pages long but it was, to me, an eye opener.  I suggest that anyone that tries to teach the Bible must first understand the whole thing and be able to witness about it.
 

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#2
FHII

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There absolutely has to be a comprehension of the structure of the Bible. Everyone understands the importance of context, yet many throw it out the window when defendi g or developing their doctrines.

I like what you said about the Bible being written for us but not everything is to us.

As for your headers... I like them. Its tough to comment without the commentary behind each one, and I may have named them differently. But I can see where you got the headers from.

Nice job!
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#3
justaname

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NOT A CRITICISM:

Why for you is A the age of God's mercy?
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You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.

#4
H. Richard

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NOT A CRITICISM:

Why for you is A the age of God's mercy?

***

Until the law came people who placed their faith in God and believed what He said were granted God's mercy.   During that time there were only Gentiles in the world.

 

When the world became so sinful and refused to believe God, He started a new race of people, the Jews.


Edited by H. Richard, 02 February 2017 - 07:08 AM.

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#5
H. Richard

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There absolutely has to be a comprehension of the structure of the Bible. Everyone understands the importance of context, yet many throw it out the window when defendi g or developing their doctrines.

I like what you said about the Bible being written for us but not everything is to us.

As for your headers... I like them. Its tough to comment without the commentary behind each one, and I may have named them differently. But I can see where you got the headers from.

Nice job!

***

Thanks!

 

I gave my headers but others can be used.  My headers encompass what I see in the Bible.  Others may see something else.  But it is best to have a foundation for what a person believes.. 


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#6
H. Richard

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A. THE AGE OF GOD'S MERCY:
 
From the Garden of Eden to Abraham God dealt with mankind by showing mercy to those that would acknowledge Him and respect Him as God. It must be noted that at that time all of mankind were Gentiles. God dealt with Noah through God’s mercy..  Noah believed what God said about a flood and built the Ark.  It should be noted that only 8 souls were saved.  The rest were destroyed because of unbelief.  In those days the world was full of violence and Jesus said “as it was in the days of Noah so shall it be when I return“.  ( the world will be full of violence)
 
Luke 17:26-30
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 
27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 
28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 
29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 
30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. 
NKJV
 
Lot was spared by leaving the city because he believed God and left. 

Edited by H. Richard, 06 February 2017 - 07:53 AM.

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#7
H. Richard

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B. THE AGE OF THE NATION OF ISRAEL:
 
After the Tower of Babel God turned His back on all of mankind except for Abrams. God set the Gentiles aside and started a new race of people to be His chosen (elect) race (the Jews) with Abraham (Abrams) being the first. The sign of being a Jew was circumcision. God made promises (covenants) to Abraham concerning what He would do for him and his children, in the flesh, if they would acknowledge Him and respect His ways. God made additional promises to Isaac, Jacob and Moses. All of these promises were God's way of dealing with His chosen people, the Jews. God promised the Jews that they would have a nation on this earth and that God would send a king to rule the earth through this nation called Israel. The fulfillment of these covenants with the Jewish people was what Jesus preached when He came (the gospel of the kingdom). It is this earthly kingdom, promised to the nation of Israel, that Jesus spoke of when He said the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.
 
Gen 12:3 (NKJ)
3 I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you; and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."    (this promise included the Gentiles)
 
God's promise(s) to Abraham: Gen 22:17-18 (NKJ)
17 "blessing I will bless you, and in multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies.
18 "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."
At this time there are only two peoples in the world, Jews and Gentiles. In Gen 12:3 above we see that the Gentiles who bless the nation of Israel shall be blessed along with the nation of Israel. This is why Cornelius was given salvation in Acts 10. The writer of Acts said much about the things that Cornelius did for the Jews (blessings to the Jews).
 
A side note: In Gen 22:17 we see the word "descendants," it is plural, not singular and it refers to Abraham's children in the flesh. In verse 18 we see the word "seed" and it is singular, not plural, and it is referring to Christ. It should also be noted that in verse 17 we see a promise God made to the descendants (plural) that they "shall possess the gates of their enemies." This has never been fulfilled. Read Isaiah 54:1-8, Ps 72 and know that these words have not been fulfilled either. But they will all be fulfilled during the 1000-year reign of Christ on this earth. ---- In Gal 3:16 we see Jesus as the SEED (one). The promise of righteousness by faith was made to Abraham AND HIS SEED (Jesus), --- NOT SEEDS (THE JEWS)
 
Let me say it again, the promise of righteousness by belief (faith) was ONLY MADE TO ABRAHAM AND HIS SEED, Jesus. It was not made to all men AT THAT TIME.
 
It should also be noted that God keeps His promises and that when Jesus comes back He will set up His kingdom just as it was promised to the Jews. --- See Matthew 25:31-46 (sheep and goat judgment) and note the reasons given for the sheep to enter into the 1000-year kingdom reign of Christ's kingdom on this earth. To say that these are children of God (believers saved under grace) is to say that that they have become saved without faith in Christ and being born of God. Therefore, this judgment is only to establish which Gentiles will go into the 1000-year reign of Christ on this earth and it will be because they blessed the Jews.
 
During the time from Abraham to Christ, God had men prophesy about a Messiah that would be sent by God to save the Jewish people, His people, and that He (the Messiah) would rule from Jerusalem. The scriptures shown above are some of those scriptures of prophecy.
 

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#8
H. Richard

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C. THE AGE OF THE LAW:
 
Starting with Moses God instituted the Jewish laws and the Jews were commanded to do them. This was the beginning of the dispensation of law and was in effect, for the Jews, until the destruction of the Jewish Temple in 70 AD. God's relationship with the nation of Israel was one of faith in God, AND doing the works of the law (faith + works, James 2:24). If you can see it, the main thing that Jesus told the Jews is that they had left out the "faith in God" part and only had faith in their religion (works) (read Luke 7:1-9 and notice verse 9 and read John 5:38-40).

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#9
H. Richard

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D. THE ARRIVAL OF THE MESSIAH:
 
Let me make it clear that Jesus Christ, by His own words, did not come to minister to the Gentiles, nor was His message "the kingdom gospel" sent to the Gentiles. He did not offer the "kingdom of heaven" TO the Gentiles. The following scriptures support my view.
 
Matt 10:5-7 (NKJ)
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
 
Matt 15:23-24 (NKJ)
23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us."
24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
 
Paul said: Rom 15:8 (NKJ)
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
 
Note that in Matt 10:5-7 and Matt 15:23-24 Jesus said He did not come EXCEPT to the house of Israel. Jesus came to confirm/fulfill all that was written of Him in the O.T. His mission was to the Jews, not to the Gentiles. This is what Paul meant in Rom 15:8.

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#10
H. Richard

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E. WHAT HAPPENED TO THE NATION OF ISRAEL?
 
From Acts 1 until Acts 7 (or perhaps 70 AD) the Jewish nation could have repented and accepted Jesus as their savior. He would have returned for His second coming and set up His kingdom rule from Jerusalem and all Gentile nations would be blessed through Israel. Read Luke 13:6-9 and realize that Jesus told this story as an indication of what would happen if Israel (the fig tree) rejected Jesus. The Jews had a time period in which they could have repented. (Acts 2:37-38)
 
Luke 13:6-9   (The Parable of the Barren Fig Tree)
6 He also spoke this parable: "A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none.
7 Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, 'Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?'
8 But he answered and said to him, 'Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it.
9 And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.'" 
NKJV
 
However, just as the nation of Israel rejected God when they said they wanted a human king to rule over them, (1 Samuel 8:19 and 10:19) they also rejected the Son of God when they said they "had no king but Caesar," (John 19:15) and, finally, they rejected the Holy Spirit when they stoned Stephens, Acts 7. They had rejected all three in the Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, who was speaking through Stephens, and their doom was sealed. The "kingdom of heaven" on this earth was put on hold until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled, Luke 21:24. During the time between Jesus’ crucifixion and the destruction of the Temple the 12 Apostles (digging around the fig tree) had not been able to convince the Jews that Jesus was their Messiah.
 
 
IMPORTANT NOTE: -- This is not to say that God did not have another purpose for Jesus' death on the cross. But that purpose was “hidden in God” and revealed to Paul on the road to Damascus by Jesus. (Eph 3:9)
 

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#11
mjrhealth

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IMPORTANT NOTE: -- This is not to say that God did not have another purpose for Jesus' death on the cross. But that purpose was “hidden in God” and revealed to Paul on the road to Damascus by Jesus. (Eph 3:9)

There was a lot more achieved at His resuection than any church teaches, If only people knew.


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The words that I SPEAK they are spirit and they are life. You search the scriptures, reading them thinking they bring you life, and they testify of Me yet you wont come to me so that you can have eternal life.


#12
H. Richard

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F. THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD AS GIVEN TO PAUL:
 
As said above, God had a hidden secondary purpose for the death of Jesus on the cross. From Jesus, and the preaching of the "Kingdom of Heaven," to this time in which we now live is a new dispensation and it was not mentioned in the O.T. it was not mentioned in the first 4 books of the N.T. nor was it mentioned in the Jewish writings of the 12. This new gospel was ""hidden in God"" and revealed to Paul by Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus, Acts 9:3-6 and Eph 3:8-9.
 
All that was written "to the Jews" in the O.T. and the N.T. was written "to the Jews," not to the Gentiles. Is it necessary for us to understand them? YES. If we don't then we are missing the foundation for understanding who Jesus is and the shift to the gospel of God's grace. The message of salvation by God's grace, "alone," given to Paul, and was without precedence. It was not in the Jewish relationship with God. The Jewish relationship was a religious one of "faith + works to show that faith" (James 2:24). However, the gospel of God's grace requires no works whatsoever. God has done all the works that are necessary on the cross. As Paul said;
 
Rom 4:5-6 (NKJ)
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
 
Only Paul penned the words "in Christ" for he understood that God places those that believe in Him "in Christ" by the operation of the Holy Spirit (new birth). Man cannot accomplish this new birth. This idea of being "in Christ" was totally new. Up to this time it was all in a religious relationship of works, rituals and ceremonies.
 
1 Cor 6:11 (NKJ)
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and """"by the Spirit of our God.""""
 
It should be noticed that only Paul talks about the rapture (caught up in the air /
1 Thessalonians 4:17-18). It is only for those that are saved under the gospel of the grace of God. These have NOT been promised an earthly kingdom but have become Children of the living God. According to Paul we are promised a place in heaven.
 
I have often thought, that since Israel (the Jews) rejected God and the whole world was to be saved through them, Satan must have thought he had won. But Satan did not know that there was a "hidden gospel" that had existed in God from the beginning (Ephesians 3:9). This gospel was going to save many by what God did on the cross and it had nothing to do with the nation of Israel (the Jews) or a person's ability to work for their salvation in religions. It was no longer to be by what a man can do for salvation. It is now based solely on what God has done, and will do, for mankind. It is completely based on God's power both to save, and to keep saved, a person.
 
1 Cor 2:7-10 (NKJ)
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him."
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
 
Matt 19:25-26 (NKJ)
25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?"
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
 
God no longer deals with mankind through, good works, rituals, ceremonies and organized religions. He deals with each individual person in his, or her, heart and that is where salvation occurs. It has nothing to do with external things.
 

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#13
H. Richard

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G. THE OLD REPLACED BY THE NEW:
 
2 Cor 3:6-18 (NKJ)
6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the """new covenant,""" not of the letter (Law) but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
9 For if the ministry of condemnation (the Law) had glory, the ministry of righteousness (grace) exceeds much more in glory.
 
Note that there are two Ministries mentioned in the verses above and one is being replaced.
 
10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels.
 
11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
 
12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech--
13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away.
14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as ""by"" the Spirit of the Lord.
 
Heb 7:18-22 (NKJ)
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,
19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
20 And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath
21 (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him: "The Lord has sworn and will not relent, 'You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek' "),
22 by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.
 
Heb 8:6-7 (NKJ)
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant (Law) had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
 
If there was never any other gospel (covenant) than the gospel of the grace of God, as some claim, why was it necessary to replace an old covenant (gospel)? If one was "unprofitable" then it must have failed to be profitable. In order to replace the old, the old had to exist in order to be replaced.
Jesus and the 12 (or 11) taught the gospel of the Abrahamic Covenant. A covenant to which the law was added (Gal 3:16-19). The law failed because of " its weakness and unprofitable-ness" It was "unprofitable" because of the weakness of men. Men could not live up to the standards of God's perfect laws. But Jesus did and He did it for us.
 
Notice that in Acts 3:21 Peter is proclaiming things made known by the prophets since the world began. In contrast, in the book of Romans, 16:25, Paul is proclaiming things kept secret since the world began. Something made known cannot be a secret and something kept secret has not been made known. Notice that Peter proclaimed the crucifixion of Jesus as something for the Jews to repent of (Acts 2) where Paul proclaimed that he gloried in the cross of Christ (Gal 6:11-15). Clearly, Peter and Paul proclaimed two different messages.
 
Through Paul, God ushered in a new plan of salvation that does not depend on sinful man's ability to live up to God's standards. It all depends on the fact that Jesus DID live up to God's standards. Under the gospel of the grace of God a person must trust in God's Son.. By that I mean, have faith, trust, confidence, and hope in what Jesus did on the cross to pay for our sins. When that happens God places that person "in Christ."  The story of the "wedding feast is an analogy of these events (Matt. 22:1-13). The wedding garments are the righteousness that God gives a person. A man was thrown out because he chose to wear his own righteousness (Romans 10:3-4).
Most all "religious" people are seeking to produce good works in their lives to earn salvation. This is a never-ending battle that is filled only with frustration and defeat. Until they accept the true gospel of Jesus Christ, they will never be able to rest in His finished work on the cross and consequently will never be able to experience the liberty of new life in Christ.
 
True liberty can come only in Christ. Only when we realize that we are SECURE in Him can we cease from our own works and rest in His work on the cross. This gives us a position of complete peace with God.
 
Heb 3:11-12 (NKJ)
11 So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest.' "
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of ""unbelief"" in departing from the living God;
 
Heb 4:1-3 (NKJ)
1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.
2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.
 
NOTE:      3 For we who have believed ""do enter that rest,"" as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, they shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
 
Heb 4:9-11 (NKJ)
9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.
 
Note verse 10
10 For he who """"has""" entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
 
11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.         (unbelief = disobedience, see Heb 3:11-12  and Heb. 4:2,3)
 
We enter His rest and cease from our own works when we believe in Him (have faith, trust, confidence, and hope in His work on the cross), and not in our own works. To be disobedient is to NOT believe in what God has done on the cross, and instead, believe that you can be saved by what you do.
 
This is how I see it.
 

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#14
bbyrd009

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nice. Yet we are called to pick up our crosses and follow, so it seems while there is a rest, there is also a tension in the concept.


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"Creation is continuous, and never stops."


#15
H. Richard

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nice. Yet we are called to pick up our crosses and follow, so it seems while there is a rest, there is also a tension in the concept.

***

10 For he who """"has""" entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His

 

The religious do not want anyone to enter God's rest because they would lose their need for religion

 

Religion is where men/women do things they think are necessary to gain salvation.  They refuse to believe that Jesus did everything necessary for salvation.  These think that their efforts in religion will save them.  These are those that try to enter the sheepfold another way.. They refuse to believe in the work of Jesus on the cross.


Edited by H. Richard, 17 February 2017 - 05:44 AM.

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#16
bbyrd009

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well, let's admit that that is a difficult concept to grasp in light of the fact that all of the apostles were apparently martyred for their actions.


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"Creation is continuous, and never stops."


#17
H. Richard

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well, let's admit that that is a difficult concept to grasp in light of the fact that all of the apostles were apparently martyred for their actions.

***

The religious also killed Stephen.  The scriptures tell us that the Jews who believed Jesus was their Messiah and King were scattered abroad after the stoning of Stephen.  So you see it was not just the apostles.  As a matter of fact the apostles were still in Jerusalem as late as Acts 21.

 

Acts 11:19
19 Now those who were scattered after the persecution that arose over Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to no one but the Jews only. 
NKJV

Edited by H. Richard, 17 February 2017 - 05:57 PM.

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#18
bbyrd009

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1 For as long, then, as that promise of resting in him pulls us on to God's goal for us, we need to be careful that we're not disqualified. 
 
2 We received the same promises as those people in the wilderness, but the promises didn't do them a bit of good because they didn't receive the promises with faith. 
 
3 If we believe, though, we'll experience that state of resting. But not if we don't have faith. Remember that God said, Exasperated, I vowed, "They'll never get where they're going, never be able to sit down and rest." 
 
4 Somewhere it's written, "God rested the seventh day, having completed his work," 
 
5 but in this other text he says, "They'll never be able to sit down and rest." 
 
6 So this promise has not yet been fulfilled. Those earlier ones never did get to the place of rest because they were disobedient. 
 
7 God keeps renewing the promise and setting the date as today, just as he did in David's psalm, centuries later than the original invitation: Today, please listen, don't turn a deaf ear . . . 
 
8 And so this is still a live promise. It wasn't canceled at the time of Joshua; otherwise, God wouldn't keep renewing the appointment for "today." 
 
9 The promise of "arrival" and "rest" is still there for God's people. 
 
10 God himself is at rest. And at the end of the journey we'll surely rest with God. 
 
11 So let's keep at it and eventually arrive at the place of rest, not drop out through some sort of disobedience. 
 
 
So, this is MSG, iow no good for exegesis, and all the symbology is lost, but nonetheless useful for getting a thought across. For what it's worth, it seems to me that religion tries to assure people that they have entered the place of rest, and no more needs to be done.

Edited by bbyrd009, 18 February 2017 - 08:39 AM.

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"Creation is continuous, and never stops."


#19
H. Richard

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1 For as long, then, as that promise of resting in him pulls us on to God's goal for us, we need to be careful that we're not disqualified. 
 
2 We received the same promises as those people in the wilderness, but the promises didn't do them a bit of good because they didn't receive the promises with faith. 
 
3 If we believe, though, we'll experience that state of resting. But not if we don't have faith. Remember that God said, Exasperated, I vowed, "They'll never get where they're going, never be able to sit down and rest." 
 
4 Somewhere it's written, "God rested the seventh day, having completed his work," 
 
5 but in this other text he says, "They'll never be able to sit down and rest." 
 
6 So this promise has not yet been fulfilled. Those earlier ones never did get to the place of rest because they were disobedient. 
 
7 God keeps renewing the promise and setting the date as today, just as he did in David's psalm, centuries later than the original invitation: Today, please listen, don't turn a deaf ear . . . 
 
8 And so this is still a live promise. It wasn't canceled at the time of Joshua; otherwise, God wouldn't keep renewing the appointment for "today." 
 
9 The promise of "arrival" and "rest" is still there for God's people. 
 
10 God himself is at rest. And at the end of the journey we'll surely rest with God. 
 
11 So let's keep at it and eventually arrive at the place of rest, not drop out through some sort of disobedience. 
 
 
So, this is MSG, iow no good for exegesis, and all the symbology is lost, but nonetheless useful for getting a thought across. For what it's worth, it seems to me that religion tries to assure people that they have entered the place of rest, and no more needs to be done.

 

***

That has it backwards.  It is the religious that try to get people to rest in their belief system that requires continual works in religion.  They refuse to see that the children of God have already entered God's rest because the work of salvation was completed (finished) by Jesus on the cross where He (Jesus) atoned for, paid for, all the sins of the world.

 

The children of God rest in Jesus' work on the cross.  It is the religious that refuse it and want to make the children of God refuse it.  They place their faith in religions that never teach that there is a rest in God.

 

God has built an Ark by His own hands and placed His children in it.  That Ark is Jesus Christ.  All the children of God are safe and secure """"IN CHRIST""".

 

There are 15 scriptures where Paul put those two words together and they mean just what they say.  1 Peter uses them together twice.


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#20
bbyrd009

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***

That has it backwards.  It is the religious that try to get people to rest in their belief system that requires continual works in religion.  They refuse to see that the children of God have already entered God's rest because the work of salvation was completed (finished) by Jesus on the cross where He (Jesus) atoned for, paid for, all the sins of the world.

 

The children of God rest in Jesus' work on the cross.  It is the religious that refuse it and want to make the children of God refuse it.  They place their faith in religions that never teach that there is a rest in God.

 

God has built an Ark by His own hands and placed His children in it.  That Ark is Jesus Christ.  All the children of God are safe and secure """"IN CHRIST""".

 

There are 15 scriptures where Paul put those two words together and they mean just what they say.  1 Peter uses them together twice.

i think these dichotomies speak to differing states of mind, and i am not sure that you are not completely correct, for one prevalent state of mind, at least. But as for the "That has it backwards," which is quite possible, it is nonetheless a translation of Scripture, thoughtfully undertaken, so i would ask exactly what passage is backward, and ask for a Scriptural refute. I personally have problems with the wording in v 3, and some other spots myself.

 

I also witness a state of rest where there should be action, and action where there might be rest, in the church, myself. I see locked churches in the midst of community suffering, homelessness, and constantly re-laying the foundation where there should be rest, iow.

 

So, a thorny concept, that imo depends upon which part of a man one is referring to, possibly. What "has it backwards," iow, to your understanding? ty


Edited by bbyrd009, 19 February 2017 - 09:17 AM.

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#21
H. Richard

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i think these dichotomies speak to differing states of mind, and i am not sure that you are not completely correct, for one prevalent state of mind, at least. But as for the "That has it backwards," which is quite possible, it is nonetheless a translation of Scripture, thoughtfully undertaken, so i would ask exactly what passage is backward, and ask for a Scriptural refute. I personally have problems with the wording in v 3, and some other spots myself.

 

I also witness a state of rest where there should be action, and action where there might be rest, in the church, myself. I see locked churches in the midst of community suffering, homelessness, and constantly re-laying the foundation where there should be rest, iow.

 

So, a thorny concept, that imo depends upon which part of a man one is referring to, possibly. What "has it backwards," iow, to your understanding? ty

***

My disagreement is where you said

 

"10 God himself is at rest. And at the end of the journey we'll surely rest with God. 

 
11 So let's keep at it and eventually arrive at the place of rest, not drop out through some sort of disobedience. 
 
According to the scriptures the children of God have already entered God's rest.
 
 
What are we supposed to "KEEP AT"??  We who are "IN CHRIST"" have already entered into God's rest.  Your statement "10 God himself is at rest. And at the end of the journey we'll surely rest with God. -- 11 So let's keep at it and eventually arrive at the place of rest, not drop out through some sort of disobedience. 
 
Since all (EVERYONE ) of the sins of  the world were laid on Him and atoned for by His shed blood there only one thing that will prevent a person from entering God's rest; and that one thing is un-belief.  To not believe Jesus has already atoned for the person's sin.   -- We are to be obedient to this promise of God.in Paul's gospel of grace. 
 
Heb 4:3-10
3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest,'"  although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 
4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works";  
5 and again in this place: "They shall not enter My rest."  
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 
7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts."  
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 
9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 
10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. 
NKJV
 

Edited by H. Richard, 19 February 2017 - 12:46 PM.

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#22
bbyrd009

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***

My disagreement is where you said

 

"10 God himself is at rest. And at the end of the journey we'll surely rest with God. 

 
11 So let's keep at it and eventually arrive at the place of rest, not drop out through some sort of disobedience. 
 
According to the scriptures the children of God have already entered God's rest.

 

ok, well you are suggesting that i said those, when they are Scripture, so let's take a look in another translation or something...

http://biblehub.com/hebrews/4-10.htmprovides those, and one can toggle right or left for the other verses.

 

The KJV says in v11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

 

So the conclusion--although you prolly won't like it--is that the "children of god" are being mis-identified in some way, and we have the story of the Wanderers to guide us here i guess; many were called, and few were chosen. And imo it does no good to insist that anyone who came to Jesus out of a fear of hell and made a little altar confession is now considered one of the chosen, if it ends up being a lie. By all means rest from your works, to be considered accepted, i am all for that--this heart will be evinced by one quick to apologize, even if they did nothing wrong, and not still "working" to maintain their imagined moral superiority, etc, might be one way to perceive it.

 

I'll scan the rest, but prolly i'll let you reload here, since i guess the rest of your post kind of builds on this, this characterization of some "labor" that imo is not accomplished at the altar, at least for the vast majority of us. Although i can freely admit that i have seen some profound changes of heart that way, too, ok. Like, two, in forty years. And no doubt even they had some labor to still accomplish. Even the phrasing, "labor to enter rest," should give one pause, yes?


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#23
bbyrd009

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What are we supposed to "KEEP AT"??  We who are "IN CHRIST"" have already entered into God's rest.

 

Ah--who is this "we?" The same "we" who is drone-bombing innocents at the moment, and awarding Nobel Peace Prizes to warmongers? That "we?"

 

So you might ask God what you are to keep at, since it is Scripture, and consider how easily some "we" gets defined for us, that will naturally create a "they," right--if there is a "we," there has to be a "they."

 

So i would ask you to clarify who is "we?"


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#24
bbyrd009

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And since those generally do not get answered in my experience, let me suggest that a "we" has been established primarily so that a "they" can be discovered, for the ultimate end of oppressing, or treating differently, when this is not the way to Christ. As soon as one defines a "we," they are doomed. And yes, i am aware of the many places in Scripture that suggest such is possible; i suggest that they be used personally, applied personally, rather than corporately, as is so often attempted. Iow read and apply these to your walk, and avoid the temptation of judging another man's walk. "We" are called to love our enemies, which is the opposite of bombing them, ok, and we can dissociate ourselves from the latter while pretending to the former all we like, but the term for that is "hypocrite," if we are married to that system in other ways, which of course we are, if we have a dollar in our pocket, or vote, or certainly if we pledge allegiance, etc.


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#25
bbyrd009

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3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest,'"  although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 
4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works";  
5 and again in this place: "They shall not enter My rest."  
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 
7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts."  
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 
9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 
10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. 
NKJV
 
 
a great passage, imo, that brings out how those preached to are not entering, and the importance of today, and even the observance of the Sabbath.
And i suggest that those who enter His rest will even manifest a physical death in keeping with this, as is suggested in several passages.
Which this might be kind of hard to equate, but imo Joan of Arc is remembered as going with serenity, even as she came to a violent end at others' hands,
whereas someone dying of cancer without any overt violence committed upon them just somehow has a different flavor, doesn't it.

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#26
dorian37grey

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sorry i am so late to this topic ;

i think an understanding that the over view of the bible is key to seeing what is going on here

after many years of looking ; i offer this

 

the bible

1- the problem

2- the issues ( to fix the problem)

3- the re set ( as the chosen people go into captivity; showing man's state )

4- the answer

5 response to the answer  

6 the end game 

 

the problem is seen in genesis pre flood 

the issues are seen or brought out from the times of abraham to david 

captivity is next and the process of( divorce  n tribes,) at, going in ; and coming out ( s tribes ) finishes the old testament 

the answer of coarse is Jesus and the gospels 

* i have come to see ; the birth ; the life ; the death and his promised return --- addresses those brought out issues of abraham to david's time ( in order) 

the response is seen as the nt books unfold and we see people reaction to what happened 

and revelation ; tells of the the end of of this 

 

just my opening thoughts on the overview of the bible 


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#27
H. Richard

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nice. Yet we are called to pick up our crosses and follow, so it seems while there is a rest, there is also a tension in the concept.

888

This is too vague.  Some take the words "take up your cross" to indicate you have to do some works to be saved.  The message of God's grace is that He has done all the works necessary for a person to be saved. They only have to believe it.


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#28
H. Richard

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ok, well you are suggesting that i said those, when they are Scripture, so let's take a look in another translation or something...

http://biblehub.com/hebrews/4-10.htmprovides those, and one can toggle right or left for the other verses.

 

The KJV says in v11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

 

So the conclusion--although you prolly won't like it--is that the "children of god" are being mis-identified in some way, and we have the story of the Wanderers to guide us here i guess; many were called, and few were chosen. And imo it does no good to insist that anyone who came to Jesus out of a fear of hell and made a little altar confession is now considered one of the chosen, if it ends up being a lie. By all means rest from your works, to be considered accepted, i am all for that--this heart will be evinced by one quick to apologize, even if they did nothing wrong, and not still "working" to maintain their imagined moral superiority, etc, might be one way to perceive it.

 

I'll scan the rest, but prolly i'll let you reload here, since i guess the rest of your post kind of builds on this, this characterization of some "labor" that imo is not accomplished at the altar, at least for the vast majority of us. Although i can freely admit that i have seen some profound changes of heart that way, too, ok. Like, two, in forty years. And no doubt even they had some labor to still accomplish. Even the phrasing, "labor to enter rest," should give one pause, yes?

***

All your reply does is make one verse defeat other verses.  If that is the way you study the Bible you will not see that they don't.

 

The child of God does not live in fear.  He/she has placed their Belief (faith, trust, confidence) in The gospel of grace that was given to Paul.  These only labor to keep those that want to put them back under works of man in religion.  As you are doing.


Edited by H. Richard, 20 February 2017 - 01:34 PM.

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#29
H. Richard

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Ah--who is this "we?" The same "we" who is drone-bombing innocents at the moment, and awarding Nobel Peace Prizes to warmongers? That "we?"

 

So you might ask God what you are to keep at, since it is Scripture, and consider how easily some "we" gets defined for us, that will naturally create a "they," right--if there is a "we," there has to be a "they."

 

So i would ask you to clarify who is "we?"

***

Give it up   I used the word we in general to say mankind.  I see that you are now wanting to make this discussion between us personal so as to side track the thread.  I am not going there so have fun.


Edited by H. Richard, 20 February 2017 - 01:31 PM.

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#30
H. Richard

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G. THE OLD REPLACED BY THE NEW: post #13

 

Most religious people will not say that the gospel changed.  But it is plain that it did.  The "gospel of the kingdom"  was what Jesus and the 12(11) preached.  It was the promise of God to the Jews only.  The rest of the Gentile nations could only go in through the Jews  (sheep and goat judgement)

 

The Jews refused their Messiah and King.  Therefore God had a ""HIDDEN GOSPEL" that was revealed to Paul.  The gospel of God's grace in that everyone on earth could be saved by just believing Jesus's shed blood has already paid for their sins.  All glory for salvation belongs to Jesus.


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