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What do you think qualifies one to be one of Christ's disciples?

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#1
shnarkle

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Whosoever qualifies? What are the consequences of whosoever qualifies?


33 "... whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple."



"32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."


Perhaps he really meant to just place 10% in the collection basket, right? Maybe 20%? How much does he recommend we pay in interest charges on our credit cards, our car payments, our mortgages?

The eye is the light of the body, if the eye is bad the whole body will be dark. Jesus came to bring life, not a death grip with interest payments.

Some think God is the only one to know where your heart is, but it ain't all that difficult for the rest of us to see where your heart is either; we need look no further than where your money is going.

We cannot serve God and satan, but we can serve God and money; at least that's what the church preaches today. After all, this is what we do "for a living"; it's the cornerstone of life itself. Working for money is serving money. Don't you know that whoever you obey, you're serving? (Rom. 6:16)

We can't work our way into heaven, but we definitely need to place our faith where it belongs; in the money we need to truly live.

You will never find a church throwing anyone out for serving mammon.

Thus says the Lord: "Quite your job and slack off".
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#2
lforrest

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Thus says the Lord: "Quite your job and slack off".


Der LORD speakith thou inn olde Englisc? Don nought efen jest.
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#3
mjrhealth

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Jas_4:10  Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

 

Mat_18:4  Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

 

As for there lives,

 

1, Probaly cost them evevry thing.

2. Probably wont find them in church following after man.

3. Constantly talking to God even in those long quiet periods where you wonder where He is.

4. Take nothing for granted - untill God says it is true its not,

5. Have no title, they simpy go about Gods business.

6. Have no need to be approved by man as they have already being approved of by God.

7. Youll find them swimming against that stream "teh norm" without a paddle most of the time.

8. And they are already saved because they believe God, and He is not a liar.

9. They are His property and cannot belong to anypne else, religion, doctrines or otherwise.


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The words that I SPEAK they are spirit and they are life. You search the scriptures, reading them thinking they bring you life, and they testify of Me yet you wont come to me so that you can have eternal life.


#4
heavenfold

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Der LORD speakith thou inn olde Englisc? Don nought efen jest.

Ok you've have your fun, time to pack up your play toys.

Mush!
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Diffrent rules for different fools.

#5
shnarkle

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Der LORD speakith thou inn olde Englisc? Don nought efen jest.


There's nothing in my post that is "olde Englisc"
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#6
shnarkle

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Jas_4:10  Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
 
Mat_18:4  Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
 
As for there lives,
 
1, Probaly cost them evevry thing.
2. Probably wont find them in church following after man.
3. Constantly talking to God even in those long quiet periods where you wonder where He is.
4. Take nothing for granted - untill God says it is true its not,
5. Have no title, they simpy go about Gods business.
6. Have no need to be approved by man as they have already being approved of by God.
7. Youll find them swimming against that stream "teh norm" without a paddle most of the time.
8. And they are already saved because they believe God, and He is not a liar.
9. They are His property and cannot belong to anypne else, religion, doctrines or otherwise.


I hadn't thought of the issue of title, but you're right. Master, mister, sir, etc. They're all pointless and yet mainstream Christianity can't seem to live without them. We seek the praise of men, and seek to praise men.
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#7
FHII

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Whosoever qualifies? What are the consequences of whosoever qualifies?


33 "... whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple."



"32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."


Perhaps he really meant to just place 10% in the collection basket, right? Maybe 20%? How much does he recommend we pay in interest charges on our credit cards, our car payments, our mortgages?

The eye is the light of the body, if the eye is bad the whole body will be dark. Jesus came to bring life, not a death grip with interest payments.

Some think God is the only one to know where your heart is, but it ain't all that difficult for the rest of us to see where your heart is either; we need look no further than where your money is going.

We cannot serve God and satan, but we can serve God and money; at least that's what the church preaches today. After all, this is what we do "for a living"; it's the cornerstone of life itself. Working for money is serving money. Don't you know that whoever you obey, you're serving? (Rom. 6:16)

We can't work our way into heaven, but we definitely need to place our faith where it belongs; in the money we need to truly live.

You will never find a church throwing anyone out for serving mammon.

Thus says the Lord: "Quite your job and slack off".


The scripture you give sounds like the sermon on the mount. It sounds like you have an axe to grind about giving in the offering at Church.

Am I right?
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#8
shnarkle

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The scripture you give sounds like the sermon on the mount. It sounds like you have an axe to grind about giving in the offering at Church.

Am I right?


Not necessarily. It's more of a matter of spotlighting the difference between what Jesus said along with the early church in comparison to what we see today. Does your church hold everything in common? Have you sold all your possessions and given the proceeds to the poor?
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#9
FHII

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Not necessarily. It's more of a matter of spotlighting the difference between what Jesus said along with the early church in comparison to what we see today. Does your church hold everything in common? Have you sold all your possessions and given the proceeds to the poor?


Sounds like communism. I notice you didn't really give full reference for that scripture. Where did you get it?
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#10
FHII

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Not necessarily. It's more of a matter of spotlighting the difference between what Jesus said along with the early church in comparison to what we see today. Does your church hold everything in common? Have you sold all your possessions and given the proceeds to the poor?



Forgive me... But I took these questions as to be rhetorial. Perhaps they were not meant to be.

My Church holds everyone to the same standard. Our "more wealthy" are still held to the same standard as our poorer saints. They don't get special treatment because they are able togive more.

None of us have sold all our possessions and given it to the poor. I would like to think we are all ready to distribute if needed, and none of us are in a state of wanting. If so, its because of a lack of making the need be known.

Jesus told ONE person to sell all AND follow him. Too many focus on the "sell all" and not on the "follow him".
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#11
mjrhealth

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Jesus told ONE person to sell all AND follow him. Too many focus on the "sell all" and not on the "follow him".

 

For the devil there are two, teh religious church goers who cause him no concern and those whom are called , who are a great burden and problem for him for they are the ones that cause him the greatest trouble, and so he will even before they are born, try to destroy them, which is why Jesus said you have to be willing to looee all, because the devil will steal evertthing he can from you just like Job. Its not much fun .

 

Mal 3:16  Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
Mal 3:17  And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
Mal 3:18  Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

 

There in the milky way is a cluster of stars called  teh Jewel Box

 

http://www.abc.net.a...y-galaxy/986682


Edited by mjrhealth, 11 February 2017 - 08:08 PM.

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The words that I SPEAK they are spirit and they are life. You search the scriptures, reading them thinking they bring you life, and they testify of Me yet you wont come to me so that you can have eternal life.


#12
shnarkle

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Forgive me... But I took these questions as to be rhetorial. Perhaps they were not meant to be.

My Church holds everyone to the same standard. Our "more wealthy" are still held to the same standard as our poorer saints. They don't get special treatment because they are able togive more.

None of us have sold all our possessions and given it to the poor. I would like to think we are all ready to distribute if needed, and none of us are in a state of wanting. If so, its because of a lack of making the need be known.

Jesus told ONE person to sell all AND follow him. Too many focus on the "sell all" and not on the "follow him".


Jesus told the rich young dude, he told the Pharisees, and he told his own disciples. For all those playing at home Jesus' disciples were first known as Christians in Antioch. Some are still known by this title today. Most don't follow Jesus' instructions at all, nor do they follow him.
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#13
shnarkle

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Sounds like communism. I notice you didn't really give full reference for that scripture. Where did you get it?


Yep, when the church is described as holding everything in common that seems to be describing communism. I'm not suggesting that this would work today, especially given that there really aren't any people like that anymore. So, that church ain't around these parts at least as far as I can see. I could be wrong, but do you know of anyone in your church that has sold all their stuff and given it to the poor? Anyone forsaking all for the kingdom?
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#14
Wormwood

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shnarkle,

 

I think one of the issues here is that the world in the 1st century is very different than the one we have today.  Yes, people shared common things, but this was also a people who lived hand to mouth each day and many who were thrown out of the synagogue for their faith were destitute.  Moreover, its likely describing small household communities who are sharing with each other to help those who are hungry and without clothes to get by (there was no welfare or community services for these people...especially if they were cut off from the local synagogue).  

 

Moreover, these narratives are describing early church procedures and are not prescribing that any one of these things are essential.  This is not a new law being penned by Luke.  We were set free from Law.  If one church-goer drives a 1990 Volvo and another drives a 2017 Mustang, it doesn't mean the guy with the Mustang should sell it and the guy with the Volvo and the Mustang should both sell them and buy Chevy's with the evenly dispersed funds.  Its just basically saying that true believers care for those in their midst who are struggling and can't put food on the table or clothes on their back...even if the other believer only has a slight amount more than the first...they didn't allow anyone to be naked or hungry.  This is not a recipe for communism or communal living.  Rather, it is just a vivid example of how very poor and persecuted early believers loved each other in very sacrificial ways.  It is a powerful reminder to us and those who do have extra money (which I am sure we all do if we are writing this on a computer) that we should be diligent about caring for the poor, and especially looking out for other Christians who are struggling to make ends meet.

 

Also, the situation with the rich young ruler had to do with Jesus confronting this person's greed and security blanket.  If Jesus walked into your church and told you to sell your house and follow him, yeah...you should do that.  Its not saying that anyone who wants to be a Christian must be flat broke or should strive to be so.  There are other Scriptures that show us clearly that there were wealthy Christians and that the real issue is not whether or not a person has money, but does money have them.  

 

I agree that greed is more prevalent in the church and in each of our lives than it should be and we should repent of it.  Yet we need to be very cautious about taking such narratives and making new laws about vows of poverty lest we falsely create a new Gospel that is based on our levels of sacrifice and giving rather than Christ's.


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#15
shnarkle

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shnarkle,
 
I think one of the issues here is that the world in the 1st century is very different than the one we have today.  Yes, people shared common things, but this was also a people who lived hand to mouth each day and many who were thrown out of the synagogue for their faith were destitute.


Well, all I can say is it must be nice living in your world because the world I live in is in a sick mess. There are way too many people going hungry in a first world country like the US alone.
 

Moreover, its likely describing small household communities who are sharing with each other to help those who are hungry and without clothes to get by...


Yep, today we got the megachurches, and God knows those places don't build themselves, and the upkeep for one of those places ain't cheap either. God needs his house though, don't he?
 

(there was no welfare or community services for these people...especially if they were cut off from the local synagogue).


Yeah, welfare is a godsend ain't it? I have a friend that hasn't had power in her house in years, and if it weren't for the fact that she lives in a state that allows for homesteading, she'd be out on the street for not paying her property taxes.


 

Moreover, these narratives are describing early church procedures and are not prescribing that any one of these things are essential.


I'm sorry, but you're neglecting to look at the fact that what the church is doing is prescribed by Christ himself in more than a few passages from your own bible.
 

This is not a new law being penned by Luke.


No, there is truly nothing new under the sun. It's God's will to treat others as ourselves. Are you living on the street; going hungry?
 

We were set free from Law.


You were set free from the law of sin, not God's law. Those who think helping the poor is a burden have no idea what it means to see the kingdom.
 

If one church-goer drives a 1990 Volvo and another drives a 2017 Mustang, it doesn't mean the guy with the Mustang should sell it and the guy with the Volvo and the Mustang should both sell them and buy Chevy's with the evenly dispersed funds.


No, it means they should sell both vehicles and give the money to the poor.
 

Its just basically saying that true believers care for those in their midst who are struggling and can't put food on the table or clothes on their back...even if the other believer only has a slight amount more than the first...they didn't allow anyone to be naked or hungry.


The church isn't supposed to just take care of their own. They're supposed to take care of anyone regardless of whether they're a believer or not.
 

This is not a recipe for communism or communal living.  Rather, it is just a vivid example of how very poor and persecuted early believers loved each other in very sacrificial ways.  It is a powerful reminder to us and those who do have extra money (which I am sure we all do if we are writing this on a computer) that we should be diligent about caring for the poor, and especially looking out for other Christians who are struggling to make ends meet.


This is pathetic. Jesus' parable of the good scumbag comes to mind. Even the scumbag helped a perfect stranger who the high and mighty couldn't be bothered with as they weren't especially Christians. Sound familiar?
 

Also, the situation with the rich young ruler had to do with Jesus confronting this person's greed and security blanket.  If Jesus walked into your church and told you to sell your house and follow him, yeah...you should do that.


He told his disciples to do it; they did it.
 

Its not saying that anyone who wants to be a Christian must be flat broke or should strive to be so.


No, it's about learning to walk by faith not by one's own visible means of support. It means that there's something so much greater awaiting those who forsake themselves and give all to the poor. It's about the miracle of receiving the kingdom rather than serving mammon.
 

There are other Scriptures that show us clearly that there were wealthy Christians and that the real issue is not whether or not a person has money, but does money have them.


And we all know that we don't need to prove anything to anyone don't we? Money doesn't have us, cause we've got money. Money will leave us desolate; good thing it don't mean nothing to us, huh? 
 

I agree that greed is more prevalent in the church and in each of our lives than it should be and we should repent of it.  Yet we need to be very cautious about taking such narratives and making new laws about vows of poverty lest we falsely create a new Gospel that is based on our levels of sacrifice and giving rather than Christ's.


I'm not making any new laws, and I'm certainly not suggesting that one needs to take a vow of poverty. Why should Christ have all the fun though? He's calling us to experience God's provision as well, for some reason this just doesn't look all that appealing though; we convict ourselves of our own lack of faith. We spotlight that we're not really Christians.

Christians are, for the most part; useless when it comes to Christ's teaching.

"Lay not up for yourselves treasures...etc,"

Jesus isn't suggesting that it's okay to lay up for yourselves a bunch of junk that you don't care about. A whole bunch of junk that thieves might want to steal, or even junk that they don't want to steal. Do you have a bunch of nice junk that you don't care about? Why? If it means nothing to you, why have you got it in the first place? Is it worthless? Is it something that you can't get anything for it?


"No man can serve two masers: for either he will hate the one, and serve the other, or else he will hold to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon." Who's your boss? Who do you work for?

" take no thought,..." When Jesus came and said to follow him, the gospel narratives proclaim that they dropped what they were doing and immediately followed him. They walked away from their jobs. So this is not only describing what they did, but Jesus is plainly instructing the same thing.

The disciples laid their money at the feet of the apostles. They lived together 24/7 proclaiming their lifestyle as an illustration of the gospel in action. Do you believe that your Father will feed and clothe you if you take no further thought except to build his kingdom instead? If you think that's a tough one, the resurrection isn't going to be any easier.

"or whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my teachings, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory" Luke 9:26

You don't honestly believe in a world where we all work for free and God takes care of our every need, do you? That couldn't be referring to anything we're supposed to do now could it? No, that's nonsense. We'd look like complete fools if we were to indulge in such a preposterous idea, wouldn't we?

Let's look at a word I'll put in caps: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Does that include you? Do you think that you could be included with "whosoever"?

What about in this verse? "So likewise, WHOSOEVER he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:33

No, that whosoever only refers to the rich young ruler, right?

 "And he said unto his DISCIPLES, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on...O ye of little faith? 29 And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind... Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. 30 For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things. 31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God;"

He taught this to the Pharisees as well (Luke 11:41) They didn't listen to him, are you suggesting that they're our role models?

He taught it to the multitudes (Luke 14:33), and his disciples taught it to all those who joined the church (Acts 4:32-35)

No, you don't have to forsake, just imagine giving it up. It's enough that you don't really care about all that junk in the first place; keep it. After all, you can't really do God's work without all that stuff, right? God has provided all that money for you, you worked for it; it's yours, right?

How bout' bills? Got any of those? I can't tell you how many good Christians I know who have literally hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt to pay off. They live in massive Mcmansions, they drive really nice cars, nice everything, and the vast majority of their money is going to pay debt; debt they will be paying for the rest of their lives. This is their idea of God's provision for them. The cost of maintenance alone is insane. One guy I know lost his house because he couldn't pay the taxes anymore. His yearly tax burden was almost as much as what I paid for my house.

God may give back when we let go of it all and walk in faith, but what usually happens is he challenges us to let go of it again and again, not just to experience his miraculous provision, but to shower us with His abundant life. This is what it means to experience God's provision. This is what it means to be a Christian.

Reach out and embrace Christ's message, but if we can't embrace it we need to have the courage to admit that we are not Christians. We are not his disciples; not born again; not filled with the Spirit.

What Christ offers is worth more than everything we all have together; more than everything we've ever had or that this life could ever give all of us. It's worth more than our lives.
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#16
Wormwood

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Well, all I can say is it must be nice living in your world because the world I live in is in a sick mess. There are way too many people going hungry in a first world country like the US alone.

 

 

I think we live in the same world.  Perhaps you should sell this computer you are typing on and give the money to these hungry people around you if that is what you feel the Lord is leading you to do.  I think you are throwing around a lot of judgment towards me and you have no idea about my financial status, lifestyle, or efforts to show benevolence to others.  

 

Yep, today we got the megachurches, and God knows those places don't build themselves, and the upkeep for one of those places ain't cheap either. God needs his house though, don't he?

 

 

Well, I am not a big fan of a lot of mega churches.  However, again, I think you need to be cautious about your blanket judgments against other believers.  I know of one "mega church" that spent 55 million on a building in which they gather every week.  This same church baptizes thousands of people every year into the faith.  They donate millions and millions of dollars to the poor worldwide every year.  They also do tens of thousands of hours of community service in their city.  And they use their facilities to provide child care for single moms, Bible studies, addiction counseling, divorce counseling, and discipleship every day of the week.  Personally, I think such monetary investments in such buildings and staff to bring believers together, build them up and organize them to make a difference in their community is a beautiful thing.  Businesses spend much more money on shopping malls and commercials for their products and no one bats an eye.  Yet churches do it to impact their communities and preach the gospel and folks like you want to condemn them for the good they are doing.  You should think about things before you start pointing your finger at others in judgment.  Hard to fight the enemy when other believers are targeting one another.

 

Yeah, welfare is a godsend ain't it? I have a friend that hasn't had power in her house in years, and if it weren't for the fact that she lives in a state that allows for homesteading, she'd be out on the street for not paying her property taxes.

 

 

How is this the church's fault?

 

I'm sorry, but you're neglecting to look at the fact that what the church is doing is prescribed by Christ himself in more than a few passages from your own bible.

 

 

Ok, so would you like to show me the verses that mandate all Christians sell all their belongings and give them to the poor?  Again, you are trying to turn the NT narratives into a new law.  Perhaps we should also add that all Christians must do greater miracles than Jesus did if they are a true believer.  You raised any dead folk lately?

 

He told his disciples to do it; they did it.

 

 

Yes.  He also told them to go from Jerusalem to Judea to Samaria and to the ends of the earth proclaiming the resurrection.  Have you been to Judea yet?  He also told them to go into the countryside with no staff or money and just preach and allow the generosity of those they preach to be their provision.  Is that what you do for a living?  Certainly you don't have one of those....jobs...do you?  

 

No, it's about learning to walk by faith not by one's own visible means of support. It means that there's something so much greater awaiting those who forsake themselves and give all to the poor. It's about the miracle of receiving the kingdom rather than serving mammon.

 

I agree.  Yet I don't condemn everyone who has money in the bank as serving mammon.  A person can have money and not serve it.  I know a number of wealthy people who are extremely godly and generous with what they have.  They do not love money nor do they serve it.  They are wise with what they have and they make the most of their resources so they can bless others.  There ARE examples of God's people who are wealthy in the Bible....

Abraham

Jacob

David

Solomon

Lydia

Joseph of Arimathea

 

 

   “As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy. They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, thus storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life.” (1 Timothy 6:17–19, ESV)  

 

 

   “Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! Without us you have become kings! And would that you did reign, so that we might share the rule with you!” (1 Corinthians 4:8, ESV)  

 

Look, I agree with you that riches are dangerous and people can easily be deceived by them.  Yet the Bible simply does not teach that a person must not have wealth in any fashion to be a child of God.  Rather, they are told to not trust in their riches and to be generous.  Clearly there were some early Christians who were rich.  And we see in Acts that some of them gave incredibly generously of their land and wealth, but they were NOT compelled or required to do so.  They did it out of love.  

 

snarkel,

 

You are terrible at twisting Scripture.  According to your logic, we must all forsake everything.  So that means if you have a family, you have to abandon them if you want to follow Christ.  In fact, Jesus said to hate your family if you want to be his disciple.  Do you hate them?  I mean, Jesus also said you have to take up your cross.  Have you been crucified yet?  Are you on the next plane to the Middle East to let ISIS crucify you?  

 

You are so eager to justify yourself and condemn others on the basis of how much money someone has in their wallet.  What you fail to realize is that Jesus often taught using hyperbole.  Does Jesus really want us to HATE our families?  Are we really to forsake our families, lands, jobs, and go live in the desert like the monastics and take vows of poverty?  No, that is NOT what Jesus intended.  Jesus' point is that we should put him above all else and that nothing else should matter to us in comparison to Him.  If Jesus commands me to sell all, I would sell all.  If Jesus appeared to me and told me to leave my family and go preach in the desert, I would do so.  Its not saying all disciples have to be crucified as a test of loyalty.  Its saying that nothing in our life should matter as much as honoring and serving Jesus.  That is the type of commitment he was calling for..and sometimes that commitment looks like selling your stuff to care for the poor...and sometimes it looks like being a shrewd business person who honors God in their life and uses the resources they have to care for the poor and support missionaries and local churches.  Sometimes being crucified with Christ means to be killed for your faith before you deny Jesus.  Or it could mean that each day you strive to reject the temptations of the flesh and do your job with joy and gratitude to God and give him praise when others are complaining and bickering.  

 

As believers, snarkle, our call is to encourage others, bless them, give thanks, be filled with praise, and lovingly encourage others to live fully for Jesus with whatever gifts they have....whether they be the gift of giving sacrificially, teaching, encouragement, or whatever else.  We all serve God in our own ways with our own gifts and will be held accountable to Him for what we have done.  So who are you to condemn others because they do not live as you do!?  Be very careful.  You will be judged by the same standard you use.


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#17
shnarkle

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I think we live in the same world.  Perhaps you should sell this computer you are typing on and give the money to these hungry people around you if that is what you feel the Lord is leading you to do.

You may be right. It's so old that I doubt I'd get more than a few dollars, if that.
 

I think you are throwing around a lot of judgment towards me and you have no idea about my financial status, lifestyle, or efforts to show benevolence to others.

Perhaps you might want to review what I've posted from the beginning. I don't care about your financial status. I'm pointing out Jesus Christ's own explicit instructions; you are being convicted by his words alone. I haven't passed judgment on anyone. You are engaging in trolling.  
 
 

Well, I am not a big fan of a lot of mega churches.  However, again, I think you need to be cautious about your blanket judgments against other believers.  I know of one "mega church" that spent 55 million on a building in which they gather every week.  This same church baptizes thousands of people every year into the faith.  They donate millions and millions of dollars to the poor worldwide every year.  They also do tens of thousands of hours of community service in their city.  And they use their facilities to provide child care for single moms, Bible studies, addiction counseling, divorce counseling, and discipleship every day of the week.  Personally, I think such monetary investments in such buildings and staff to bring believers together, build them up and organize them to make a difference in their community is a beautiful thing.

Sure, but it's also the way of the world. It has nothing to do with God's plan. It has nothing to do with Christ's explicit instructions as to what it means to truly be a disciple. These aren't my judgements. These are the words of Christ himself.
 

Businesses spend much more money on shopping malls and commercials for their products and no one bats an eye.  Yet churches do it to impact their communities and preach the gospel and folks like you want to condemn them for the good they are doing.

I'm not judging anyone. I'm not condemning anyone. You are trolling. You are also admitting that what I'm pointing out is true. You and your churches that do so much for the community are following your own way; you are not following the way of Christ. You are condoning the ways of the world. You are ignoring the explicit words of Christ to let our heavenly Father provide for ALL our needs. You condemn yourself. I haven't condemned anyone.
 

You should think about things before you start pointing your finger at others in judgment.

You are trolling. I'm only making a few obvious observations which is driving you insane with conviction. You know what I'm pointing out is the truth right straight from your own bible. Read it for yourself. I supplied chapter and verse. Christ himself has pointed out that unless you forsake all and rely on the Father YOU ARE NOT HIS DISCIPLE.
 

Hard to fight the enemy when other believers are targeting one another.

When one isn't a believer in the first place, one needn't worry about what others are doing. Believers believe Christ's words. Unbelievers make excuses or just simply ignore His words altogether and work their way to their own salvation.
 
 

How is this the church's fault?

When the church is relying on mammon rather than the providence of God, then it is in serious trouble.
 
 

Ok, so would you like to show me the verses that mandate all Christians sell all their belongings and give them to the poor?

How many times would you like to see it? I've already provided plenty of verses. Plenty enough to get you exasperated to the point of trolling this topic.
 

Again, you are trying to turn the NT narratives into a new law.

Again, you are trolling. I've done nothing other than provide the words of Christ Himself and observe that virtually no one is doing anything of the sort. It's an empirical observation that anyone can see for themselves.
 

Perhaps we should also add that all Christians must do greater miracles than Jesus did if they are a true believer.

Christ said as much. You don't believe that either? No, why would you when you can't even be bothered to sell your junk and use the proceeds to feed the hungry or cloth the naked.
 

You raised any dead folk lately?

You think that's the only miracle worth mentioning? How about seeing someone take Jesus' words at face value? How about someone who actually goes out and sells their junk and starts walking in faith that our heavenly Father will provide for us? The angelic host of heaven rejoices when they see this happening. Want to know why? Because it's a miracle. For you this means nothing. For you, you have to see someone raised from the dead to even begin to wake up to the miraculous. Don't you want to experience the providence of God? No, you obviously have no desire whatsoever. You don't know what you're missing. If you have experienced it and have had enough, then you're truly miserable.
 
 

Yes.  He also told them to go from Jerusalem to Judea to Samaria and to the ends of the earth proclaiming the resurrection.  Have you been to Judea yet?

Gotta start somewhere. How about starting where you are?
 

He also told them to go into the countryside with no staff or money and just preach and allow the generosity of those they preach to be their provision.

Yep, now tell me how is what you just pointed out in any way a condemnation on your or my part????? Isn't it just simply an observation? Isn't what you just pointed out the truth? I just want you to notice something here. I'm not getting all bent out of shape over that or any of Christ's instructions. Do you see the difference in my reaction verses yours? Are you beginning to notice that I agree with what those words are saying? Unfortunately, you don't see what a blessing it is to experience God's provision.
 

Is that what you do for a living?

Jesus said to give up working for a living. Walk in faith brother. Don't knock it till you try it.
 

Certainly you don't have one of those....jobs...do you?

You're trolling and sarcasm have gotten so ridiculous I don't even know what you're talking about now. Are you referring to a job that one works to make money or are you talking about working for the kingdom? I'm working for the kingdom. I don't care if no one provides for me. If that's God's will then I will die knowing that this is God's will. I trust that God will provide for whatever I may need. He has always provided for me. I have never had to go without anything that I absolutely didn't have to have. In the beginning there were plenty of things that I wanted and got pretty much all of them. This isn't the way to go. This isn't what Christ was talking about. He was talking about being content with what you have, and when one begins to see that what one has isn't the kingdom, then what one has needs to go. Think of it this way. Suppose that all that you have could be traded in for the exact same things you already have. Exact duplicates. A pretty easy trade, no? Now what about trading all you stuff in for brand spanking new duplicates of everything. Still a pretty good deal for you, no? The kingdom makes it all look like garbage. You're just trading one bag of garbage for another one. The amazing thing here is that God has made a deal with you that you can trade your garbage for the kingdom. You can trade you worthless junk for the priceless kingdom. There is no better deal anywhere. There never was, nor will there ever be a better deal for you. This is a deal that God is making with you brother. It's literally something for nothing; it's grace; it's winning the jackpot without ever having to have a cent to play. All you have to do I accept it. It's the easiest thing in the world to do for a believer; just believe you can accept it. Just let that idea slosh around in your head for a while. I'm serious as a heart attack. If you just try to entertain the idea for a while, I firmly believe that you will begin to see how fantastic this could truly be for you and everyone around you. This is no different than walking through the Red Sea, or running out of Sodom and escaping fiery brimstone, or Paul on the road to Damascus. When people talk about "biblical proportions", this is what they're talking about.
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#18
shnarkle

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I agree.  Yet I don't condemn everyone who has money in the bank as serving mammon.

Jesus disagrees.
 

A person can have money and not serve it.

Sure, they just can't be one of Christ's disciples.
 

I know a number of wealthy people who are extremely godly and generous with what they have.

You really don't know what you're talking about. Unless you know what they're total net worth is, not to mention the secrets in the deepest recesses of their hearts, you have no clue.
 

They do not love money nor do they serve it.

See above.
 

They are wise with what they have and they make the most of their resources so they can bless others.

And yet they are still probably not disciples or even Christians except in name only.
 

There ARE examples of God's people who are wealthy in the Bible....
Abraham

Abraham left his home with no idea of where he was going. How old was Abraham when God called him? Pretty old to be chopping off the foreskin of his penis don't you think? Look at the generosity of Abraham. Are you running out to invite strangers into your home? Could you do that?
 

Jacob

Jacob wrestled with God and it cost him his ability to even get around for the rest of his life. Had any wrestling matches with God that left you crippled for life? Jacob also got screwed over by Laban. He screwed his brother out of his birthright. He also was horribly deceived by his own children. His wealth was a curse to him. His fancy gifts to his favorite son cost him dearly.

David

David paid dearly for his sins; not what I would call the best example. God even convicted him of his wealth while God was sitting in a tent.

Solomon

LOL!!! You've got to be kidding! Solomon is the archetypal screw up of all time! Do you even know why? Because he knew better. As wise as he was, in the end he did just the opposite of what God called him to do. He's the perfect example of what NOT TO DO.
 

“As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy.

And this is done by working? NOT EVEN CLOSE. Set your hopes on God alone. Do not lay up treasure where moth or rust doth corrupt. Why? Because it's just junk.
 

They are to do good, to be rich in good works,

Yep, good works. That's the definition of rich.
 

to be generous and ready to share,

When one is ready to share, they actually do share. How many of your rich friends share their mansions? How does one share a place like that? Hugh Hefner does more sharing than most Christians do when it comes to sharing his home. Is he a Christian?
 

thus storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future,

I got some bad news for you. he's not talking about monetary treasure and he's not talking about the future of his investment portfolio either.
 

so that they may take hold of that which is truly life.” (1 Timothy 6:17–19, ESV)

Yep, you don't know what you're missing until you can walk out in faith and truly believe that our heavenly Father will not only provide for your every need, but will richly bless you to the point where you will not be able to get rid of your wealth fast enough. It's like it creates a vacuum and the more you give, the more you have to give away. It just shows up out of nowhere. It's truly miraculous. Give it a chance to happen. Just start by giving whatever you can, but try to make it a bit more than what you're comfortable with. Just try it and see what happens. Believe. You don't even have to believe. Just believe that you can walk in faith to Christ's instruction to start selling some stuff and giving the proceeds to the poor.  
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#19
shnarkle

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Look, I agree with you that riches are dangerous and people can easily be deceived by them.  Yet the Bible simply does not teach that a person must not have wealth in any fashion to be a child of God.

You're missing the whole point of what I'm posting here. It isn't a renunciation of material wealth. It's trusting in God to do what He promises to do. He isn't going to leave you in the lurch. He's going to bless you with the kingdom.
 

Rather, they are told to not trust in their riches and to be generous.  Clearly there were some early Christians who were rich.  And we see in Acts that some of them gave incredibly generously of their land and wealth, but they were NOT compelled or required to do so.  They did it out of love.

The point is that they did it. They didn't just give some. They gave all. They forsake all for the sake of the kingdom.
 

snarkel,
 
You are terrible at twisting Scripture.

And you are once again trolling. I haven't twisted one piece of scripture in the slightest. I have presented the text itself which is a testimony of the truth. I've also pointed out that Jesus himself has pointed out that unless you forsake all, you CANNOT be one of his disciples.
 

According to your logic, we must all forsake everything.

No, just Christ's disciples.
 

So that means if you have a family, you have to abandon them if you want to follow Christ.

No, you must bring them along.
 

In fact, Jesus said to hate your family if you want to be his disciple.  Do you hate them?

If they cannot be a disciple then they are going to see what you are doing as hateful. This is a definite possibility.
 

I mean, Jesus also said you have to take up your cross.  Have you been crucified yet?

Yes, it's happening right now.
 

Are you on the next plane to the Middle East to let ISIS crucify you?

There are no flights to ISIS territories.
 
 

You are so eager to justify yourself

You are trolling. I dare you to find one sentence where I have justified myself. Go ahead. We're all waiting.
 

and condemn others on the basis of how much money someone has in their wallet.

I haven't condemned anyone. I've simply pointed out that Jesus says that if you do not forsake all, and rely completely on God's providence you 'CANNOT' be his disciple.
 

What you fail to realize is that Jesus often taught using hyperbole.

Let me tell you something. What you fail to realize is that I spent years translating the gospels. I also spent years studying all of the figures of speech used in the bible. Jesus uses figurative speech quite regularly. He uses Metaphor, Hypocatastasis, Hendiadys, Euphemism, Simile, Epanidiplosis,Parable and many others. In point of fact, he is speaking literally here. His disciples are literally going with nothing as well. They are understanding what he is saying literally so we can safely say that anyone who is thinking about excusing themselves with this is ignoring the simple fact that he and his disciples practice what they preach. While Jesus is using the figure Hyperbole with regards to hating one's parents(meaning one should esteem Christ more than parents, spouse, etc.) This is besides the point when it comes to the literal instructions to forsake them for the kingdom. This isn't to say to just walk off for the kingdom. One must do whatever one can to bring them along, but if they value their toys, and trinkets more than Christ, you have to forsake them if you truly want to be a disciple of Christ. Christ is your head, and you are the head of your wife. If she is unable to see that, then she is unworthy of you or Christ.
 

Does Jesus really want us to HATE our families?  Are we really to forsake our families, lands, jobs,...

If they are unable to be disciples of Christ, I'm afraid that is precisely what Christ means.
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#20
shnarkle

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Jesus' point is that we should put him above all else and that nothing else should matter to us in comparison to Him.

A distinction with no effective difference.
 

If Jesus commands me to sell all, I would sell all.

No, you wouldn't. He already did, and you still haven't.
 

If Jesus appeared to me and told me to leave my family and go preach in the desert, I would do so.

No, you wouldn't.
 

Its not saying all disciples have to be crucified as a test of loyalty.

Right, it's saying to forsake all, sell what you have, give the money to the poor, follow him because he did the same thing. He used rocks for pillows. He depended on our heavenly father for all his needs. We as Christians are to do the same. We are not to work for mammon.
 

Its saying that nothing in our life should matter as much as honoring and serving Jesus.  That is the type of commitment he was calling for..

A distinction with no effective difference
 

and sometimes that commitment looks like selling your stuff to care for the poor...

Only when one is a disciple of Christ, and that's always what it looks like.
 

and sometimes it looks like being a shrewd business person who honors God in their life and uses the resources they have to care for the poor and support missionaries and local churches.

No, that's walking by sight. Any damned fool can do that, and I don't mean that figuratively either.
 

Sometimes being crucified with Christ means to be killed for your faith before you deny Jesus.

Sure, but it always means you must deny yourself, and that starts by forsaking what you want, and following Christ. That means that you deny yourself the ability to keep up with the Jones's. That means that you don't go to your fancy church and pray to be seen of others. That means that you don't boast of all the money you're making. You don't serve mammon at all. You serve only God.
 

Or it could mean that each day you strive to reject the temptations of the flesh and do your job with joy and gratitude to God and give him praise when others are complaining and bickering.

No, it means quitting your job because God has a much more important job for you to do. He is calling you to spread the gospel everywhere you go. He is calling you to a harvest that is ripe for the picking. 
 

As believers, snarkle, our call is to encourage others,

And I am encouraging you to forsake all, sell what you have and follow Christ.
 

bless them,

There is no greater blessing than the kingdom.
 

give thanks, be filled with praise, and lovingly encourage others to live fully for Jesus with whatever gifts they have....

If you got gifts they need to be given. You can't hold onto gifts.
 

whether they be the gift of giving sacrificially, teaching, encouragement, or whatever else.

Sure, no doubt that is all good and fine, but when it comes to denying yourself. That money needs to go to the poor; not your death grip mortgage, car payments, etc.
 

We all serve God in our own ways with our own gifts and will be held accountable to Him for what we have done.  So who are you to condemn others because they do not live as you do!?

You are trolling. This is a blatantly false accusation. It is inflammatory trolling. Where have I condemned anyone? Please supply the post where I have condemned anyone.
 

Be very careful.  You will be judged by the same standard you use.

No doubt. The fact that you are the one who is passing judgement and making false accusations is telling. Again, I would encourage you to pray about what I've presented here as it is obvious that it is bothering you deeply. I am in no way condemning anyone here. I am simply making a very obvious observation about what Jesus clearly teaches.
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#21
mjrhealth

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No, it means quitting your job because God has a much more important job for you to do. He is calling you to spread the gospel everywhere you go. He is calling you to a harvest that is ripe for the picking.

That in itself is a dangerous statement that has got many doing what they should not. When Christ calls you know it, becuase it will cost you witout you doing anything.it has nothing to do with what is written in teh bible.


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The words that I SPEAK they are spirit and they are life. You search the scriptures, reading them thinking they bring you life, and they testify of Me yet you wont come to me so that you can have eternal life.


#22
bbyrd009

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I'm not suggesting that this would work today, especially given that there really aren't any people like that anymore.

 

lots of people live that way! Communes, enclaves, intentional communities, etc. Bruderhof. et al.


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"Creation is continuous, and never stops."


#23
FHII

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On multiple occasions shnarkle has accused Wormwood of "trolling". Shnarkle:

Do you even know whay that term means? Google it... It means to deliberately post something offensive in order to get an angry response. If anything, thats you, not Wormwood!

He hasn't done that... But you have been nothing but caustic from your first post. It could actually be a descent topic, but the tone seems very bitter. Furthermore I suspect there is an agenda behind it. No I can't prove it... But I discern it.

I have seen many good responses to your questions with scriptural refernce. The bottom line is that its ok to have a job and have some money... We must be ready to distribute and be givers.... That could be a worthwhile conversation. But thats not my issue right now.

Just to be clear... I have some issues with Wormwood. But i look at this thread and shnakle... You clearly are falsely acccusing him of trolling.
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#24
bbyrd009

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We all serve God in our own ways with our own gifts and will be held accountable to Him for what we have done.  So who are you to condemn others because they do not live as you do!?

 

this is trolling? 


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"Creation is continuous, and never stops."


#25
Wormwood

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Sure, but it's also the way of the world. It has nothing to do with God's plan. It has nothing to do with Christ's explicit instructions as to what it means to truly be a disciple. These aren't my judgements. These are the words of Christ himself.

 

 

So a church cannot be doing the will of God if a building or land is involved.  Is that what you are arguing?  The preaching of the Gospel is made void if a building is owned?  

 

Abraham left his home with no idea of where he was going.

 

Yes, and God blessed him and made him a very wealthy man with a lot of servants, flocks and herds.

 

And Jacob was blessed by God and loved by God...he had wealth...thats the point.

 

 

   “In this way the man grew exceedingly prosperous and came to own large flocks, and female and male servants, and camels and donkeys.” (Genesis 30:43, NIV)  

 

God even convicted him of his wealth while God was sitting in a tent.

 

 

 

 “David then took up residence in the fortress and called it the City of David. He built up the area around it, from the terraces inward. And he became more and more powerful, because the Lord God Almighty was with him. Now Hiram king of Tyre sent envoys to David, along with cedar logs and carpenters and stonemasons, and they built a palace for David. Then David knew that the Lord had established him as king over Israel and had exalted his kingdom for the sake of his people Israel.” (2 Samuel 5:9–12, NIV)  

 

Looks to me like "the Lord God Almighty was with him" is why he became powerful, had palaces and fortresses.  

 

I'm not judging anyone. I'm not condemning anyone...Where have I condemned anyone? Please supply the post where I have condemned anyone.

 

Well, when you suggest that anyone who hasn't taken a vow of poverty and determines to be unemployed is not a real disciple of Jesus, that's about as condemning as it gets.  Last I checked, non-disciples do not go to heaven...correct?

 

When one is ready to share, they actually do share. How many of your rich friends share their mansions? How does one share a place like that?

 

 
Lol, yes, all my friends live in mansions.  You know me so well.  smh.  
 
No, it means quitting your job because God has a much more important job for you to do.

 

 

Oh really?  What if my job is to share the Gospel with people?  I should quit that?  Is the virtue here in being generous and doing Kingdom work or not drawing a paycheck?  Seems like your only focus is the latter.

 

Jesus said to give up working for a living. Walk in faith brother. Don't knock it till you try it.

 

 

 

   “Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need.” (Ephesians 4:28, NIV)  

 

So...looks like this scripture says we "must work."  Ill go with the Scripture here rather than your extrapolations on the teachings of Jesus.

 

Look, you aren't convicting me or driving me crazy with anything.  You know nothing about me, my finances or my life.  I write this in a very calm and collected manner.  I am really not that concerned with what you think about me or my faith.  You know nothing about me.  I am simply sharing my views about how you are completely misunderstanding the Bible and the words of Jesus.  Im not even going to try to respond to your 10 pages of condescending responses. Ill just close with a couple of Scriptures.  

 

  “One person gives freely, yet gains even more; another withholds unduly, but comes to poverty.” (Proverbs 11:24, NIV)  

 

  “So God said to him, “Since you have asked for this and not for long life or wealth for yourself, nor have asked for the death of your enemies but for discernment in administering justice, I will do what you have asked. I will give you a wise and discerning heart, so that there will never have been anyone like you, nor will there ever be. Moreover, I will give you what you have not asked for—both wealth and honor—so that in your lifetime you will have no equal among kings.” (1 Kings 3:11–13, NIV)  (Looks like God gave the wealth to Solomon...that was my point..it wasn't Solomons evil plot to reject the plans of God for him)

 

You may be right. It's so old that I doubt I'd get more than a few dollars, if that.

 

  

Im surprised you'd let "a few dollars" get in the way of allowing you to be a true disciple...according to your definition anyway.  


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#26
bbyrd009

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27Don't work for food that spoils. Instead, work for the food that lasts into eternal life. 

 

Should at least get a hearing here. For whatever reason, we have no testimony of worldly wealth gained by a believer in the dispensation of Grace, NT.


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"Creation is continuous, and never stops."


#27
Wormwood

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27Don't work for food that spoils. Instead, work for the food that lasts into eternal life. 

 

Should at least get a hearing here. For whatever reason, we have no testimony of worldly wealth gained by a believer in the dispensation of Grace, NT.

 

Well, there seem to be some that had wealth....there are a few Scriptures that indicate as much.  However, you are right, the early church was predominantly very poor and highly persecuted.  For many in the early church (and in many places around the world), to become a Christian meant to lose status, family and possibly your means of making a living.  People sacrificed incredibly for Jesus and still do around the world. 

 

Yet my point is that for those who do not live in areas where they are highly persecuted and lose their jobs if they profess Christ, I do not see anything in the NT that suggests they cannot have a job or must take a vow of poverty to prove they have faith.  Certainly we should be willing to give up all for Christ, but many in the West do not live under such harsh conditions or persecutions.  Yet, those with wealth need to be careful not to put their trust in it and to be generous with what they have.  That is God's command to the wealthy...not that they sell everything and become unemployed as is being argued here by shnarkle.


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#28
bbyrd009

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i see reflections now--that likely were not apparent so much even 20 years ago--of "666 in their hand, or their forehead" (everything they do, or everything they think), now applicable to even crop production for profit, but i guess that doesn't mean that one could not still find gainful employment somewhere. But wherever the $ is being sought, the cheapest method is also usually sought, now, too, right. And that is not even getting in to the reality of a $ that is manipulated--and you have to be paid in $s, right. See the difference in United States Notes--what Kennedy was printing--and Federal Reserve Notes, iow. The second requires dilution, and inflation, etc, and they have in fact "crashed" over 99% since their inception. We just don't notice it, having been born and raised with a dollar that shrinks in value over time.

 

And if you advocate some other medium of exchange, you are an enemy of the state. Now i'm seeing the rise of cryptocurrency--BTC is up over $1000 each again--and imo the dollar is hanging by a thread now; it only lacks some trusted source, prolly a sovereign one, to create a trusted crypto exchange...i'm surprised Iran hasn't thought of it yet, actually. They are wanting to dump dollars, and a crypto exchange would be a fait accompli.

 

We can also witness that for like half of our workforce now--prolly 49%, lol--the alt seems to be to work for $, or "peanuts," for less and less than a living wage, every day. Imo it has been figured out that in a "democracy" only 51% of the pop needs to be content, see. There are many other reflections here, such as the debt being paid on $20 Trillion dollars, every day, and bailouts for bonuses, etc, but the point might be that i think one is fairly hard-pressed to justify taking a job for dollars now. The test might be if you even could eschew dollars for any amount of time; as the oppressed here have been forced to do. If you have a mortgage, it is of course pointless to pretend that you are not a slave to your mortgage, etc.


Edited by bbyrd009, 19 February 2017 - 08:10 AM.

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"Creation is continuous, and never stops."


#29
mjrhealth

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In the end of it all, it is not our choosing but Christs, we can only agree when he calls.


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The words that I SPEAK they are spirit and they are life. You search the scriptures, reading them thinking they bring you life, and they testify of Me yet you wont come to me so that you can have eternal life.


#30
bbyrd009

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In the end of it all, it is not our choosing but Christs, we can only agree when he calls.

ha. For that i would consider Man's absolute terror of God, reflected in statements by the Wanderers to Moses and touched on elsewhere, many places, and our delight in the things of satan, appearing as an angel of light. While it would be nice to assume that at some point this changes, to me that is paramount to suggesting that free will gets taken away, which also speaks to your choosing, imo. If we are called to change our minds, i think this implies that it is we who must make a choice to do so. Otherwise again free will is violated.

 

It might be pertinent to reflect on all those instances of God hardening hearts with a different frame of mind, iow.

 

21Then, looking at him, Jesus loved him and said to him, "You lack one thing: Go, sell all you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me."

22But he was stunned at this demand, and he went away grieving, because he had many possessions.


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"Creation is continuous, and never stops."





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