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Rome vs Melchizedek

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#1
Webers_Home

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Melchizedek was a high priest of the Most High God contemporary with
Abraham. (Gen 4:18-20, Heb 5:10)

Mel, along with Abraham, existed prior to the covenanted law that Yhvh's
people agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and
Deuteronomy.

Deut 5:2-4 . .Yhvh our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. Yhvh did
not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us
alive here today.

This is very important seeing as how the covenant's law wasn't set up to be
enforced ex post facto; i.e. it isn't retroactive.

Gal 3:17. . The law, which came four hundred and thirty years afterward,
does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to cancel the
promise.

Enacting the Jews' covenant after their father's time, instead of before him
or with him, was done to protect Abraham's covenant from his posterity's
curse-worthy failures to comply with their covenant. In other words; no
matter how many times, nor in how many ways, Abraham's posterity breaks
the laws of their own covenant, they cannot endanger the fulfillment of their
father's covenant; which is a really good thing because otherwise neither
Christ nor his believing followers would benefit from one of the promises God
made in Abraham's covenant.

Gal 3:8 . . Scripture, which saw in advance that God would justify the
Gentiles by faith, foretold the good news to Abraham, saying, “Through you
shall all the nations be blessed.” (cf. Gen 12:3)

Continuing:

Rom 4:15 . .The law produces wrath; but where there is no law, neither is
there violation.

In other words: where there is no law, there is no law to break. However;
it's not saying that things like dishonesty weren't sins back in those days
because they were.

Rom 5:13a . . Up to the time of the law, sin was in the world,

Rom 4:15 is only saying that seeing as how God hadn't as yet enacted a law
forbidding dishonesty in Abraham's day, then whenever Abraham lied; God
didn't write him up for it.

Rom 5:13b . . . Sin is not accounted when there is no law.

The koiné Greek word translated "accounted" is ellogeo (el-log-eh'-o) which
essentially speaks of keeping records.

So; seeing as how Christ's priesthood is patterned after Melchizedek's rather
than Aaron's (Ps 110:4, Heb 5:1-7:28), and seeing as how Mel officiated
prior to the Jews' covenant; then just as Abraham wasn't written up for
breaking the Jews' covenanted laws; then neither are Christ's constituents
written up for breaking them; which includes the Ten Commandments (Ex
20:1-17, Ex 31:28, Deut 4:13, Deut 10:4).

2Cor 5:19 . .God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not
counting their trespasses against them

Now, according to the rules and regulations of the Catholic catechism; when
people pass away with just one un-absolved mortal sin on the books, they
go directly to hell with no stopover in a purgatory. (CCC 1035)

There's a fatal flaw in that rule. Know what it is? Well; according to Rom
4:15, Rom 5:13, and 2Cor 5:19, God isn't keeping books on Christ's
believing followers. In point of fact, none of their sins of any kind are on the
books-- either mortal or venial.

You know what that means? It means that as far as God's criminal justice
system is concerned, Christ's believing followers are fully acquitted and
100% innocent, i.e. as far as God's criminal justice system is concerned;
Christ's believing followers never committed even one single sin in their
entire lives! So when the archives are reviewed as per Rev 20:11-15, there
will be nothing recorded in them with which to accuse Christ's believing
followers.

/


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#2
bbyrd009

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oh, i'm thinkin any sin that is not admitted, and apologized for, and rebounded from, is certainly judged.


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"Creation is continuous, and never stops."


#3
tom55

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oh, i'm thinkin any sin that is not admitted, and apologized for, and rebounded from, is certainly judged.

Hell must have frozen over. I actually agree with you on this one. :wub:


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#4
bbyrd009

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lol :)


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"Creation is continuous, and never stops."


#5
Webers_Home

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The Publican's Experience

Luke 18:14 . . I tell you, this man went down to his house forgiven rather
than the other

No; Jesus didn't say "forgiven" he said justified.

The koiné Greek word is dikaioo (dik-ah-yo'-o) which essentially means to
regard as innocent.

In order for God to grant the tax man innocence, He couldn't merely forgive
him; no, God had to exonerate him; and how does one do that when there is
evidence enough to indict?

Well, according to the Bible, Christ was restored to life for our justification
(Rom 4:25). In other words; though Christ's crucifixion was sufficient to
obtain forgiveness for people's sins; his crucifixion alone wasn't sufficient to
make it possible for people to obtain an acquittal, i.e. exoneration; which
can be defined as an adjudication of innocence.

Acquittals are normally granted when there is insufficient evidence to
convict. In other words: by means of Christ's resurrection, God was able to
cook the books so that it appears the tax collector never did anything bad.
On the surface; this looks very unethical, but from God's perspective it's all
on the up and up.

This is a serious issue under the terms and conditions of the covenant that
Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and
Deuteronomy. The covenant's sacrifices obtained forgiveness for the people,
but the sacrifices did not, and could not, obtain them exoneration. No, a
record of their disobedience remained on the books, hanging over their
heads like a sword of Damocles. Out ahead, at the Great White Throne event
depicted at Rev 20:11-15, those books will be opened for review.

/


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#6
mjrhealth

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Amen, I wish people would get it, than they would not walk in bondage and be set free, no more shame.

 

Rev_3:18  I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.


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The words that I SPEAK they are spirit and they are life. You search the scriptures, reading them thinking they bring you life, and they testify of Me yet you wont come to me so that you can have eternal life.


#7
BreadOfLife

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The Publican's Experience

Luke 18:14 . . I tell you, this man went down to his house forgiven rather
than the other

No; Jesus didn't say "forgiven" he said justified.

The koiné Greek word is dikaioo (dik-ah-yo'-o) which essentially means to
regard as innocent.

In order for God to grant the tax man innocence, He couldn't merely forgive
him; no, God had to exonerate him; and how does one do that when there is
evidence enough to indict?

Well, according to the Bible, Christ was restored to life for our justification
(Rom 4:25). In other words; though Christ's crucifixion was sufficient to
obtain forgiveness for people's sins; his crucifixion alone wasn't sufficient to
make it possible for people to obtain an acquittal, i.e. exoneration; which
can be defined as an adjudication of innocence.

Acquittals are normally granted when there is insufficient evidence to
convict. In other words: by means of Christ's resurrection, God was able to
cook the books so that it appears the tax collector never did anything bad.
On the surface; this looks very unethical, but from God's perspective it's all
on the up and up.

This is a serious issue under the terms and conditions of the covenant that
Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and
Deuteronomy. The covenant's sacrifices obtained forgiveness for the people,
but the sacrifices did not, and could not, obtain them exoneration. No, a
record of their disobedience remained on the books, hanging over their
heads like a sword of Damocles. Out ahead, at the Great White Throne event
depicted at Rev 20:11-15, those books will be opened for review.

 To say that you can sin boldly without repenting is a perversion of Scripture.

Here are a few passages that completely annihilate your false teaching.  Mind you - ALL of these verses are talking about "SAVED" Christians:

 

Romans 11:22

“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN  in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”

Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation.  How can they lose what they never had?

 

Hebrews 10:26-27

“If we sin deliberately AFTER  receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei).  This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

 

2 Peter 2:20-22

For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.

For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE  their salvation by their own doing.

 

Matt. 5:13

You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

 

1 Cor. 9:27

"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."

Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

 

2 Peter 3:17

Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

 

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

 

Rev. 3:5

He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

 

Rev. 22:19

And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

How can God take away somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.


Edited by BreadOfLife, 17 February 2017 - 12:14 PM.

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#8
mjrhealth

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Guess someone missed this bit

 

2Ti 2:13  If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

 

Some would just love to condmen the worlds people whom God and Jesus have done so much to save.


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The words that I SPEAK they are spirit and they are life. You search the scriptures, reading them thinking they bring you life, and they testify of Me yet you wont come to me so that you can have eternal life.


#9
BreadOfLife

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Guess someone missed this bit

 

2Ti 2:13  If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

 

Some would just love to condmen the worlds people whom God and Jesus have done so much to save.

And that's a great refutation of the verses that I presented . . . NOT.
As usual, you can't refute anything I said.  You simply post another verse out of context.

ALL Scriptures must harmonize or it is ALL a lie.

YOU need to figure out how the verse you posted harmonizes with all of the ones that I posted . . .


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"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." - G.K. Chesterton


#10
mjrhealth

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Hmm well at least i dont need to use different colours and bold to make a point,

 

 

ALL Scriptures must harmonize or it is ALL a lie.

YOU need to figure out how the verse you posted harmonizes with all of the ones that I posted . . .

no it must agree with God or its  a lie.


Edited by mjrhealth, 17 February 2017 - 05:28 PM.

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The words that I SPEAK they are spirit and they are life. You search the scriptures, reading them thinking they bring you life, and they testify of Me yet you wont come to me so that you can have eternal life.


#11
bbyrd009

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...when people pass away with just one un-absolved mortal sin on the books, they
go directly to hell with no stopover in a purgatory. (CCC 1035)

There's a fatal flaw in that rule...

i suggest that there is more than one, which the necessary invention of a "purgatory" even points to--that being that a future hell as it has been presented to us is a lie.


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"Creation is continuous, and never stops."


#12
Webers_Home

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Q: Don't Catholics obtain justification when they go to confession?

A: The Roman church's reconciliatory process is somewhat limited in its
scope. It's primarily designed for absolution; i.e. while it forgives a sinner's
debt to God's law, it does nothing to delete the sinner's history.

In other words: sinners leave the confessional with their rap sheets and their
indictments intact and unchanged. That's unfortunate because those records
are subject to review at the Great White Throne event depicted at Rev
20:11-15 where they can, and will, be used to adjudge people as
undesirable immigrants, so to speak; thus barring them from crossing the
border into heaven

Justification, on the other hand, as per the koiné Greek word dikaioo,
completely deletes the sinner's history; i.e. dikaioo wipes their records so
clean and efficiently that there is nothing left that can in any way be used to
prove that the sinner has ever been anything less than 100% innocent.

Now, the advantage of the kind of justification I'm talking about is that
sinners need obtain it only once because from thence, God stops keeping
records on them.

2Cor 5:19 . .God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not
counting their trespasses against them

The koiné Greek word translated "counting" is logizomai (log-id'-zom-ahee)
which means to take an inventory.

/


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#13
bbyrd009

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seems to negate that when one confesses their sins is when they are forgiven. (and i don't mean to a priest, either, but never mind that for now)


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"Creation is continuous, and never stops."


#14
BreadOfLife

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Hmm well at least i dont need to use different colours and bold to make a point,

 

no it must agree with God or its  a lie.

Ummmm, that's what "harmonize" means, in context.
You're simply arguing for argument's sake . . .


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#15
BreadOfLife

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Q: Don't Catholics obtain justification when they go to confession?

A: The Roman church's reconciliatory process is somewhat limited in its
scope. It's primarily designed for absolution; i.e. while it forgives a sinner's
debt to God's law, it does nothing to delete the sinner's history.

In other words: sinners leave the confessional with their rap sheets and their
indictments intact and unchanged. That's unfortunate because those records
are subject to review at the Great White Throne event depicted at Rev
20:11-15 where they can, and will, be used to adjudge people as
undesirable immigrants, so to speak; thus barring them from crossing the
border into heaven

Justification, on the other hand, as per the koiné Greek word dikaioo,
completely deletes the sinner's history; i.e. dikaioo wipes their records so
clean and efficiently that there is nothing left that can in any way be used to
prove that the sinner has ever been anything less than 100% innocent.

Now, the advantage of the kind of justification I'm talking about is that
sinners need obtain it only once because from thence, God stops keeping
records on them.

2Cor 5:19 . .God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not
counting their trespasses against them

The koiné Greek word translated "counting" is logizomai (log-id'-zom-ahee)
which means to take an inventory.

 

First of all - you are overstating the definition of dikaioo. It simply means:

 

1) to render righteous or such he ought to be
2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
1) to render righteous or such he ought to be 2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered 3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
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#16
BreadOfLife

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i suggest that there is more than one, which the necessary invention of a "purgatory" even points to--that being that a future hell as it has been presented to us is a lie.

 

i suggest that there is more than one, which the necessary invention of a "purgatory" even points to--that being that a future hell as it has been presented to us is a lie.

The doctrine of a final Purgation is anything BUT an "invention".
Of course - you have to be able to understand Scripture.
 
Luther on Purgatory:
"I myself have come to the conclusion that there is a purgatory, but I cannot force anybody else to come to the same result."  (Career of the Reformer, Luther’s Works, Vol. 32)
 
"The existence of a purgatory I have never denied. I still hold that it exists, as I have written and admitted [Unterricht auf etlich Artikel. WA 2, 70] many times."


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"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." - G.K. Chesterton


#17
mjrhealth

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Ummmm, that's what "harmonize" means, in context.
You're simply arguing for argument's sake . . .

You got me there but statement still stands. now go back and read your posts from someone elses point of view,


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The words that I SPEAK they are spirit and they are life. You search the scriptures, reading them thinking they bring you life, and they testify of Me yet you wont come to me so that you can have eternal life.


#18
BreadOfLife

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You got me there but statement still stands. now go back and read your posts from someone elses point of view,

Why?  They've got YOU tongue-tied . . .


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"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." - G.K. Chesterton


#19
tabletalk

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Breadoflife:  You stated: "To say that you can sin boldly without repenting is a perversion of Scripture."  

 

Who said that? People who are born from above are convicted of sin by God. A bold, obvious sin must be repented, and will be repented by that believer. But, many sins are not even recognized by the believer and are already completely, and perfectly, forgiven by God through the Lord Jesus. 


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#20
Mungo

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Q: Don't Catholics obtain justification when they go to confession?

A: The Roman church's reconciliatory process is somewhat limited in its
scope. It's primarily designed for absolution; i.e. while it forgives a sinner's
debt to God's law, it does nothing to delete the sinner's history.

In other words: sinners leave the confessional with their rap sheets and their
indictments intact and unchanged. That's unfortunate because those records
are subject to review at the Great White Throne event depicted at Rev
20:11-15 where they can, and will, be used to adjudge people as
undesirable immigrants, so to speak; thus barring them from crossing the
border into heaven



 

 

This is typical of your straw man stuff Webers_Home. You put out a lot of garbage about what the Catholic Church teaches and then try to knock that down. Unfortunately there are people here that will swallow this junk.

 

Readers, please note that Webers_Home provides no evidence for these claims - no quotes from the Catechism, no quotes from major Council documents, no quotes from major Papal documents.


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Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts.

Prejudice is a great timesaver. It enables you to form opinions without bothering to get facts.

#21
bbyrd009

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i dunno, i'm not buying any borders of heaven, personally, but i think he makes a good point at this "absolution?" Imo if you sin against someone, and then go ask for absolution from the church, without confessing and asking forgiveness from the one you sinned against, what have you done? But then i am not too fam with Catholic confession, perhaps that is a necessary component? But of course then why would one be steered into "penance," saying Hail Marys or whatever...ya, that's just satanic imo, sorry.

The doctrine of a final Purgation is anything BUT an "invention".
Of course - you have to be able to understand Scripture.
 
Luther on Purgatory:
"I myself have come to the conclusion that there is a purgatory, but I cannot force anybody else to come to the same result."  (Career of the Reformer, Luther’s Works, Vol. 32)
 
"The existence of a purgatory I have never denied. I still hold that it exists, as I have written and admitted [Unterricht auf etlich Artikel. WA 2, 70] many times."

ok, got any Scripture then?

 

(And um, isn't Luther a Protestant, anyway?)  In January 1521, Pope Leo X excommunicated Luther. ("Diet of Worms," lol; nothing Freudian goin on there, eh...)

 

so wadr, not only are you not providing any Scripture, you are quoting a heretic, i don't get it, sorry.

 

I don't mean to be rude, but i am reminded of Prot ministers who denounce women ministers, yet have no problem following a woman minister into Rapture doctrine.


Edited by bbyrd009, 19 February 2017 - 09:04 AM.

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#22
BreadOfLife

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Breadoflife:  You stated: "To say that you can sin boldly without repenting is a perversion of Scripture."  

 

Who said that? People who are born from above are convicted of sin by God. A bold, obvious sin must be repented, and will be repented by that believer. But, many sins are not even recognized by the believer and are already completely, and perfectly, forgiven by God through the Lord Jesus. 

I say that because of the false and unbiblical Protestant doctrine of Eternal Security.

According to this false belief, a Christian, after having been "saved" is assured a place in Heaven - no matter what.  ALL sins are forgiven - past present and future.

 

Nowhere does the bible state that your future sins are forgiven without repentance.  The Bible teaches us that a believing, saved christian can fall from grace and LOSE their secure place:

 

Romans 11:22

“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN  in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”

Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation.  How can they lose what they never had?

 

Hebrews 10:26-27

“If we sin deliberately AFTER  receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei).  This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

 

2 Peter 2:20-22

For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.

For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE  their salvation by their own doing.
 

Matt. 5:13

You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

1 Cor. 9:27

"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."

Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

 

2 Peter 3:17

Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

 

1 John 2:24

See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.

This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

 

Rev. 3:5

He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

 

Rev. 22:19

And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

How can God take away somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.


Edited by BreadOfLife, 19 February 2017 - 12:15 PM.

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"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." - G.K. Chesterton


#23
BreadOfLife

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i dunno, i'm not buying any borders of heaven, personally, but i think he makes a good point at this "absolution?" Imo if you sin against someone, and then go ask for absolution from the church, without confessing and asking forgiveness from the one you sinned against, what have you done? But then i am not too fam with Catholic confession, perhaps that is a necessary component? But of course then why would one be steered into "penance," saying Hail Marys or whatever...ya, that's just satanic imo, sorry.

ok, got any Scripture then?

 

(And um, isn't Luther a Protestant, anyway?)  In January 1521, Pope Leo X excommunicated Luther. ("Diet of Worms," lol; nothing Freudian goin on there, eh...)

 

so wadr, not only are you not providing any Scripture, you are quoting a heretic, i don't get it, sorry.

 

I don't mean to be rude, but i am reminded of Prot ministers who denounce women ministers, yet have no problem following a woman minister into Rapture doctrine.

I quoted Luther because he was a Protestant - just like YOU.

 

As for Purgatory - since Rev. 21:27 tells us that nothing unclean can enter heaven, a final purification or purgation is necessary for some before entering heaven. 

the belief in Purgatory is Scripturally-based. 

 

In 2 Macc. 42-46, we see that Judas Maccabeus prays for the men of his army, killed in battle. Verse 44 says, “… for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.” Matt. 5:25-26 tells us that unless we have settled our matters, we will be “handed over to the prison guard and will not be released until we have paid the last penny.”

 

We are told in 1 Cor. 3:12-15 that the day (judgment) will disclose the foundation that a person builds upon and how it will be revealed: “If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”

 

We know that there is no suffering in Heaven - so this is not Heaven.

We know that those spoken of here will be saved - so this is not Hell.

This is a THIRD state - the state of Final Purgation of our will to conform with GOD's will.

 

Additionally, Matt. 12:32 states, “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come”, which indicates that there is purification after death for some. Matt. 18:32-35 and Luke 12:58-59 are additional verses that support this doctrine.

 

All of these verses point to the fact that those in Purgatory will suffer loss but will eventually be released (purified, purged from iniquity, saved)


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"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." - G.K. Chesterton


#24
Mungo

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i dunno, i'm not buying any borders of heaven, personally, but i think he makes a good point at this "absolution?" Imo if you sin against someone, and then go ask for absolution from the church, without confessing and asking forgiveness from the one you sinned against, what have you done? But then i am not too fam with Catholic confession, perhaps that is a necessary component? But of course then why would one be steered into "penance," saying Hail Marys or whatever...ya, that's just satanic imo, sorry.

 

You admit to be ignorant of Catholic practices.

 

But then - based on that ignorance - you accuse Catholics of satanic practices!

 

That's really stupid - imo of course.


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Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts.

Prejudice is a great timesaver. It enables you to form opinions without bothering to get facts.

#25
Stranger

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 To say that you can sin boldly without repenting is a perversion of Scripture.

Here are a few passages that completely annihilate your false teaching.  Mind you - ALL of these verses are talking about "SAVED" Christians:

 

Romans 11:22

“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN  in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”

Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation.  How can they lose what they never had?

 

Hebrews 10:26-27

“If we sin deliberately AFTER  receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei).  This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

 

2 Peter 2:20-22

For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.

For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE  their salvation by their own doing.

 

Matt. 5:13

You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

 

1 Cor. 9:27

"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."

Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

 

2 Peter 3:17

Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

 

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

 

Rev. 3:5

He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

 

Rev. 22:19

And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

How can God take away somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

 

I certainly don't say we as Christians can 'sin boldly' without repenting.  But neither do I say these verses you have given say the Christian loses his or her salvation.  

 

You say in your post #9 that all Scripture must harmonize.  How do you harmonize the Scriptures you have given with those that say 'distinctly' that salvation is by faith and faith alone'?

 

Stranger


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#26
BreadOfLife

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I certainly don't say we as Christians can 'sin boldly' without repenting.  But neither do I say these verses you have given say the Christian loses his or her salvation.  
 
You say in your post #9 that all Scripture must harmonize.  How do you harmonize the Scriptures you have given with those that say 'distinctly' that salvation is by faith and faith alone'?
 
Stranger

There is not one single verse of Scripture that makes the claim you are making - that we are saved by "Faith alone."
In fact - the ONLY time the phrase "Faith alone" appears in the Entire Bible in James 2:24, where he explicitly states:
"See how a person is justified by works and NOT BY faith alone."
 
Apparently, you didn't read the verses I presented in my last post that speak of SAVED Christians losing their salvation.
As I pointed out: 
The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei).  These verses are about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

 

Please refute this before you make the claim that they are NOT talking about people losing their salvation.

Please also refute the other passages that are clearly talking about the loss of salvation.


Edited by BreadOfLife, 20 February 2017 - 08:16 AM.

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"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." - G.K. Chesterton


#27
bbyrd009

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You admit to be ignorant of Catholic practices.

 

But then - based on that ignorance - you accuse Catholics of satanic practices!

 

That's really stupid - imo of course.

well, but that is not based upon ignorance, though--are not Catholics encouraged to confess to someone they call "father," and encouraged to do "penance?" And please don't take the "satanic" thing too personally, ok, all have sinned and come short, me included. But imo there is a diff in naivete or ignorance, and deliberate, willful disobeying. Ty, BoL, for the reasoning for Purgatory, i always wondered about that. I'm not interested in debating doctrine with you guys, i think that is pointless and doomed, as is praying for the dead, which has no Witness in Scripture, but otoh i don't want to condemn this if it has meaning for anyone. It is an ancient practice, and pagan, but i think God judges differently than we do. If you sin against me, all of the penance in the world does not make it right, whereas a simple apology usually works wonders, imo. Put the question to a little kid, and see what they say, perhaps.


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"Creation is continuous, and never stops."


#28
BreadOfLife

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well, but that is not based upon ignorance, though--are not Catholics encouraged to confess to someone they call "father," and encouraged to do "penance?" And please don't take the "satanic" thing too personally, ok, all have sinned and come short, me included. But imo there is a diff in naivete or ignorance, and deliberate, willful disobeying. Ty, BoL, for the reasoning for Purgatory, i always wondered about that. I'm not interested in debating doctrine with you guys, i think that is pointless and doomed, as is praying for the dead, which has no Witness in Scripture, but otoh i don't want to condemn this if it has meaning for anyone. It is an ancient practice, and pagan, but i think God judges differently than we do. If you sin against me, all of the penance in the world does not make it right, whereas a simple apology usually works wonders, imo. Put the question to a little kid, and see what they say, perhaps.

There's "No" Scriptural basis for praying for the dead?
Wanna bet??
 
In 2 Macc. 42-46, we see that Judas Maccabeus prays for the men of his army, killed in battle. Verse 44 says"

“… for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.” 


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"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." - G.K. Chesterton


#29
bbyrd009

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All of these verses point to the fact that those in Purgatory will suffer loss but will eventually be released (purified, purged from iniquity, saved)

 

or that a Purgatory has been invented to avoid the fact that "the age to come" will occur on earth;

 

“If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”

 

see that there is no reason why this cannot occur in today for an individual, whose hypocritical works come to nought, but a lesson is learned, and they can then build upon a firm foundation.

 

As for Purgatory - since Rev. 21:27 tells us that nothing unclean can enter heaven, a final purification or purgation is necessary for some before entering heaven. 

the belief in Purgatory is Scripturally-based. 

 

until it is seen that the kingdom is right beside you, right now, yes. It actually becomes immoral to wait for your life to begin in some undetermined future, as Gandhi has said. This is the cause of much of the suffering in the world, and why Christians are noted for being so unlike Christ.


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"Creation is continuous, and never stops."


#30
bbyrd009

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There's "No" Scriptural basis for praying for the dead?
Wanna bet??
 
In 2 Macc. 42-46, we see that Judas Maccabeus prays for the men of his army, killed in battle. Verse 44 says"

“… for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.” 

you might have a better chance at 2Tim1:18, which is at least NT, but

 

4Anyone who is among the living has hopeb —even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!

5For the living know that they will die,

but the dead know nothing;

they have no further reward,

and even their name is forgotten.

 

et al, so i doubt it, sorry. Possibly why Maccabees is no longer considered Canon by many, and you can see that there is no other Witness for this concept, but then, most Prots are "tomorrow people" too, so believe what you like--but it fails in a holistic view of Scripture, it seems to me.


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"Creation is continuous, and never stops."





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