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It is not in the bible.....sola scripture

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#1
twinc

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so why is it believed and accepted that Mary had children other than Jesus - twinc


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#2
BreadOfLife

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so why is it believed and accepted that Mary had children other than Jesus - twinc

It's only believed in and accepted by non-Catholics.

It was simply used as a means to further separate themselves from the original tree that they splintered from.


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"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." - G.K. Chesterton


#3
Stranger

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so why is it believed and accepted that Mary had children other than Jesus - twinc

 

Because that is the testimony of Scripture.

 

What you should be asking is , 'what is the purpose of Mary being a perpetual virgin?', as taught by  the Roman church. 

 

Stranger


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#4
BreadOfLife

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Because that is the testimony of Scripture.

 

What you should be asking is , 'what is the purpose of Mary being a perpetual virgin?', as taught by  the Roman church. 

 

Stranger

It's only the "testimony of Scripture" to the ignorant.

If Scripture is clear about anything - it's that Mary didn't have any children other than Jesus.

I've explained the many uses of the words Adelphos and Adelphe ad nauseam on other threads - but they have fallen on deaf ears that choose to remain ignorant on the topic.  Here's an interesting little bit of statistics.  Look each on up for yourself if you disagree . . .

 

 

The Use of "Brothers" in the NT

Cases where "Adelphos" clearly or probably refers to a family sibling:   41   12%

Cases where "Adelphos" may or may not refer to a family sibling:   47   14%

Cases where "Adelphos" cannot or almost certainly does not refer to a family sibling:   256   74%

Total occurrences of "Adelphos" and Adelphe":   344   100%

 

 

Mt 1:11 Joh 1:40 Ac 28:15 2Co 13:11 Heb 7:5 Mt 1:2 Joh 1:41 Ac 28:17 Ga 1:2 Heb 8:11 Mt 10:2 Joh 11:19 Ac 28:21 Ga 1:11 Heb 10:19 Mt 10:21 Joh 11:2 Ro 1:13 Ga 1:19 Heb 13:22 Mt 12:46 Joh 11:21 Ro 7:1 Ga 3:15 Heb 13:23 Mt 12:47 Joh 11:23 Ro 7:4 Ga 4:12 Jas 1:2 Mt 12:48 Joh 11:32 Ro 8:12 Ga 4:28 Jas 1:9 Mt 12:49 Joh 2:12 Ro 8:29 Ga 4:31 Jas 1:16 Mt 12:50 Joh 20:17 Ro 9:3 Ga 5:11 Jas 1:19 Mt 13:55 Joh 21:23 Ro 10:1 Ga 5:13 Jas 2:1 Mt 14:3 Joh 6:8 Ro 11:25 Ga 6:1 Jas 2:5 Mt 17:1 Joh 7:10 Ro 12:1 Ga 6:18 Jas 2:14 Mt 18:15 Joh 7:3 Ro 14:10 Eph 6:10 Jas 2:15 Mt 18:21 Joh 7:5 Ro 14:13 Eph 6:21 Jas 3:1 Mt 18:35 Ac 1:14 Ro 14:15 Eph 6:23 Jas 3:10 Mt 19:29 Ac 1:15 Ro 14:21 Php 1:12 Jas 3:12 Mt 20:24 Ac 1:16 Ro 15:14 Php 1:14 Jas 4:11 Mt 22:24 Ac 2:29 Ro 15:15 Php 2:25 Jas 5:7 Mt 22:25 Ac 2:37 Ro 15:30 Php 3:1 Jas 5:9 Mt 23:8 Ac 3:17 Ro 16:14 Php 3:13 Jas 5:10 Mt 25:40 Ac 3:22 Ro 16:17 Php 3:17 Jas 5:12 Mt 28:10 Ac 6:3 Ro 16:23 Php 4:1 Jas 5:19 Mt 4:18 Ac 7:2 1Co 1:1 Php 4:8 1Pe 5:12 Mt 4:21 Ac 7:13 1Co 1:10 Php 4:21 2Pe 1:10 Mt 5:22 Ac 7:23 1Co 1:11 Col 1:1 2Pe 3:15 Mt 5:23 Ac 7:25 1Co 1:26 Col 1:2 1Jo 2:7 Mt 5:24 Ac 7:26 1Co 2:1 Col 4:7 1Jo 2:9 Mt 5:47 Ac 7:37 1Co 3:1 Col 4:9 1Jo 2:10 Mt 7:3 Ac 9:17 1Co 4:6 Col 4:15 1Jo 2:11 Mt 7:4 Ac 9:30 1Co 5:11 1Th 1:4 1Jo 3:10 Mt 7:5 Ac 10:23 1Co 6:5 1Th 2:1 1Jo 3:12 Mr 1:16 Ac 11:1 1Co 6:6 1Th 2:9 1Jo 3:13 Mr 1:19 Ac 11:12 1Co 6:8 1Th 2:14 1Jo 3:14 Mr 10:29 Ac 11:29 1Co 7:12 1Th 2:17 1Jo 3:15 Mr 10:30 Ac 12:2 1Co 7:15 1Th 3:2 1Jo 3:16 Mr 12:19 Ac 12:17 1Co 7:24 1Th 3:7 1Jo 3:17 Mr 12:20 Ac 13:15 1Co 7:29 1Th 4:1 1Jo 4:20 Mr 13:12 Ac 13:26 1Co 8:11 1Th 4:6 1Jo 4:21 Mr 3:17 Ac 13:38 1Co 8:12 1Th 4:10 1Jo 5:16 Mr 3:31 Ac 14:2 1Co 8:13 1Th 4:13 3Jo 1:3 Mr 3:32 Ac 15:1 1Co 9:5 1Th 5:1 3Jo 1:5 Mr 3:33 Ac 15:3 1Co 10:1 1Th 5:4 3Jo 1:10 Mr 3:34 Ac 15:7 1Co 11:2 1Th 5:12 Jude 1:1 Mr 3:35 Ac 15:13 1Co 11:33 1Th 5:14 Re 1:9 Mr 5:37 Ac 15:22 1Co 12:1 1Th 5:25 Re 6:11 Mr 6:17 Ac 15:23 1Co 14:6 1Th 5:26 Re 12:10 Mr 6:18 Ac 15:32 1Co 14:20 1Th 5:27 Re 19:10 Mr 6:3 Ac 15:33 1Co 14:26 2Th 1:3 Re 22:9 Lu 12:13 Ac 15:36 1Co 14:39 2Th 2:1 Mt 19:29 Lu 14:12 Ac 15:40 1Co 15:1 2Th 2:13 Mt 13:56 Lu 14:26 Ac 16:2 1Co 15:6 2Th 2:15 Mr 10:29 Lu 15:27 Ac 16:40 1Co 15:50 2Th 3:1 Lu 10:39 Lu 15:32 Ac 17:6 1Co 15:58 2Th 3:6 Ac 23:16 Lu 16:28 Ac 17:10 1Co 16:11 2Th 3:13 Joh 11:28 Lu 17:3 Ac 17:14 1Co 16:12 2Th 3:15 Mr 10:30 Lu 18:29 Ac 18:18 1Co 16:15 1Ti 4:6 1Co 7:15 Lu 20:28 Ac 18:27 1Co 16:20 1Ti 5:1 Lu 10:40 Lu 20:29 Ac 20:32 2Co 1:1 1Ti 6:2 Mr 3:35 Lu 21:16 Ac 21:7 2Co 1:8 2Ti 4:21 Mt 12:50 Lu 22:32 Ac 21:17 2Co 2:13 Phm 1:1 1Co 9:5 Lu 3:1 Ac 21:20 2Co 8:1 Phm 1:7 Ro 16:1 Lu 3:19 Ac 22:1 2Co 8:18 Phm 1:16 Jas 2:15 Lu 6:14 Ac 22:5 2Co 8:22 Phm 1:20 Lu 14:26 Lu 6:41 Ac 22:13 2Co 8:23 Heb 2:11 Mr 6:3 Lu 6:42 Ac 23:1 2Co 9:3 Heb 2:12 Joh 11:39 Lu 8:19 Ac 23:5 2Co 9:5 Heb 2:17 Joh 11:1 Lu 8:20 Ac 23:6 2Co 11:9 Heb 3:1 Joh 11:5 Lu 8:21 Ac 28:14 2Co 12:18 Heb 3:12 Joh 19:25         Ro 16:15         2Jo 1:13         1Ti 5:2         Joh 11:3


Edited by BreadOfLife, 20 April 2017 - 02:56 PM.

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#5
Stranger

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BreadOfLife

 

Again, stats are just another way of lying.  

 

Again, why is it so important that Mary be a perpetual virgin?

 

Stranger


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#6
Mungo

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BreadOfLife

 

Again, stats are just another way of lying.  

 

Again, why is it so important that Mary be a perpetual virgin?

 

Stranger

 

Mary's perpetual virginity bears witness to the uniqueness and Christ and to the divinity of Christ.

 

Denying the perpetual virginity of Mary subtly denies the divinity of Christ in the womb.


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Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts.

Prejudice is a great timesaver. It enables you to form opinions without bothering to get facts.

#7
mjrhealth

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Mary's perpetual virginity bears witness to the uniqueness and Christ and to the divinity of Christ.

 

Denying the perpetual virginity of Mary subtly denies the divinity of Christ in the womb.

Does nothing of teh sort, bible says He was born of a virgin, and He was, after that it doesnt matter, teh task set before her was complete, she did as she was asked. If she slept with ten other men after that it would not matter teh promise is still fulfilled. Christ is no longer in the womb after He is born, is he??


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The words that I SPEAK they are spirit and they are life. You search the scriptures, reading them thinking they bring you life, and they testify of Me yet you wont come to me so that you can have eternal life.


#8
kepha31

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BreadOfLife

 

Again, stats are just another way of lying.  

 

Again, why is it so important that Mary be a perpetual virgin?

 

Stranger

So you dismiss 344 Bible verses and say stats are another way of lying? What a dishonest cop out!

It's important because it is the truth.

I suppose all the early reformers that believed the PV don't count.

And the unanimous consent of the ECF don't count.

Mary having other children was invented by liberal Protestants influenced by skeptics and atheists in the 19th century. It's a false tradition of men, made popular by a growing number of Protestants only recently. And they say WE are deceived???

Jesus' "Brothers" and Mary's Perpetual Virginity <best scripture based refutation of the "Jesus' brothers" lie I have yet found.

 

 

 

305ff792033c22c6de81dc60d97a5c8f.jpg


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car·i·ca·ture
description of Church teaching which certain striking characteristics are exaggerated in order to create a comic or grotesque effect.

#9
Mungo

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The founders of the Reformation believed that Mary was ever-virgin

 

Martin Luther:

"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin....Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact." (Weimer, The Works of Luther, English Transl. by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v.11,pp. 319-320; v. 6 p. 510.)

 

"Christ...was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him..."brothers" really means "cousins" here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers. (Sermons on John, chapters 1-4, 1537-39.)

 

"He, Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb...This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that." (Ibid.)

 

John Calvin:

"There have been certain folk who have wished to suggest that from this passage (Matt 1:25) that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph's obedience and to show also that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company....And besides this Our Lord Jesus Christ is called the first-born. This is not because there was a second or a third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to the precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or not there was any question of the second." (Sermon on Matthew 1:22-25, published 1562.)

 

Ulrich Zwingli:

"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary....Christ...was born of a most undefiled Virgin." (Stakemeier, E. in De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, Balic, K., ed., Rome, 1962, p. 456.)

 

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, in Evang. Luc., v. 1, p. 424.)

 

Does that mean that the founders of the Reformation were heretics promoting false doctrines?

Was Protestantism founded by heretics?


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Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts.

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#10
Mungo

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Does nothing of teh sort, bible says He was born of a virgin, and He was, after that it doesnt matter, teh task set before her was complete, she did as she was asked. If she slept with ten other men after that it would not matter teh promise is still fulfilled. Christ is no longer in the womb after He is born, is he??

 

Do you then see God as an abuser of women? Someone who took a wife from her husband for his own purposes and then handed her back after he had finished with her?


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Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts.

Prejudice is a great timesaver. It enables you to form opinions without bothering to get facts.

#11
Stranger

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Mary's perpetual virginity bears witness to the uniqueness and Christ and to the divinity of Christ.

 

Denying the perpetual virginity of Mary subtly denies the divinity of Christ in the womb.

 

The virgin birth bears witness, and was necessary for The Son of God to accomplish salvation for man.   There is no need for a 'perpetual virginity'.   It serves no purpose, other than to give Mary a place God never intended.

 

To deny Mary's perpetual virginity in no way affects my faith in Christ as God the Son.  You however place a belief in Mary equal with a belief in Christ.  

 

Stranger


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#12
Stranger

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The founders of the Reformation believed that Mary was ever-virgin

 

Martin Luther:

"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin....Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact." (Weimer, The Works of Luther, English Transl. by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v.11,pp. 319-320; v. 6 p. 510.)

 

"Christ...was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him..."brothers" really means "cousins" here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers. (Sermons on John, chapters 1-4, 1537-39.)

 

"He, Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb...This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that." (Ibid.)

 

John Calvin:

"There have been certain folk who have wished to suggest that from this passage (Matt 1:25) that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph's obedience and to show also that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company....And besides this Our Lord Jesus Christ is called the first-born. This is not because there was a second or a third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to the precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or not there was any question of the second." (Sermon on Matthew 1:22-25, published 1562.)

 

Ulrich Zwingli:

"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary....Christ...was born of a most undefiled Virgin." (Stakemeier, E. in De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, Balic, K., ed., Rome, 1962, p. 456.)

 

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, in Evang. Luc., v. 1, p. 424.)

 

Does that mean that the founders of the Reformation were heretics promoting false doctrines?

Was Protestantism founded by heretics?

 

 

It means they were wrong concerning Mary's perpetual virginity.  Remember they were part of the Roman Church also for years.  Thus they would be affected by it.  They were drawing the line in some areas of doctrine, but not in all.   

 

The Reformers were correct in dividing where they did.  In other areas they didn't go far enough.  It would be left to others to do so.

 

Well, according to Rome, yes Protestantism was founded by heretics.

 

Stranger


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#13
Mungo

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The virgin birth bears witness, and was necessary for The Son of God to accomplish salvation for man.   There is no need for a 'perpetual virginity'.  

 

You asked why it was important that Mary was a perpetual virgin but when given an answer you fail to engage with it. Instead you just retreat into denial.

 

  It serves no purpose, other than to give Mary a place God never intended.

 

 

How can you be so sure of what God intended?

 

Do you claim to know the mind of God?


Edited by Mungo, 21 April 2017 - 04:51 AM.

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Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts.

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#14
Mungo

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It means they were wrong concerning Mary's perpetual virginity. 

 

If they were wrong about that, how many other things were they wrong about?

 

 Remember they were part of the Roman Church also for years.  Thus they would be affected by it.  They were drawing the line in some areas of doctrine, but not in all.   

 

The Reformers were correct in dividing where they did.  In other areas they didn't go far enough.  It would be left to others to do so.

 

 

That's a non answer - a cop out!

 

These founding reformers seemed quite able to challenge the Catholic Church on many other issues.

 

But you are right on one point - it would be left to others to go further and further from the truth.


Edited by Mungo, 21 April 2017 - 04:51 AM.

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Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts.

Prejudice is a great timesaver. It enables you to form opinions without bothering to get facts.

#15
BreadOfLife

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BreadOfLife

 

Again, stats are just another way of lying.  

 

Again, why is it so important that Mary be a perpetual virgin?

 

Stranger

Translation:

"That is way too much evidence and I'm not even going to try to refute it."

 

Nothing but a gigantic cop-out.

 

As to your question - about WHY it's "important" that Mary be a perpetual Virgin - it's because we believe in God.
His Word shows us through prophecy, type and fulfillment that she was to remain a virgin  If God lied about that - then ALL of Scripture is a lie.


Edited by BreadOfLife, 21 April 2017 - 07:21 AM.

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"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." - G.K. Chesterton


#16
Born_Again

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Translation:

"That is way too much evidence and I'm not even going to try to refute it."

 

Nothing but a gigantic cop-out.

 

 

Regardless of my standpoint, this made me chuckle!!! LOL 

 

I guess the same question could be asked the other way... Why is it important that she not be a virgin after Christs birth? What troubles me about a lot of these debates is it seems more time is taken to disprove each other than time spent following what Christ commanded us to do. I have recently be convicted in my circumstance of what my priorities are. I may start a thread to elaborate and ask a question or two of the forum. Carry on!! 


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#17
Stranger

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You asked why it was important that Mary was a perpetual virgin but when given an answer you fail to engage with it. Instead you just retreat into denial.

 

 

How can you be so sure of what God intended?

 

Do you claim to know the mind of God?

 

Yes I know what you answered and I showed you that I disagree with your answer.   Mary's perpetual virginity is not needed to show any uniqueness to Christ and neither does it do anything for His Divinity.   It is not necessary.   The virgin birth was necessary.  Perpetual virginity is not.

 

I can be sure because of what is written in the Scripture.

 

I can know the things revealed to us.  I can know the mind of God to the extent that I understand the Revelation He has given.

 

Stranger


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#18
Stranger

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If they were wrong about that, how many other things were they wrong about?

 

 

That's a non answer - a cop out!

 

These founding reformers seemed quite able to challenge the Catholic Church on many other issues.

 

But you are right on one point - it would be left to others to go further and further from the truth.

 

Well, they could be wrong about other things.  Which they were.  But we have the Scripture to be our judge.  

 

My answer is not a cop out.  It is the answer.   Though they did move away from the Roman church, they didn't move far enough.

 

Ah, you're being deceptive.  I can't be right in saying that others would go farther from the truth.   Because I didn't say it.  

 

Stranger


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#19
Mungo

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Yes I know what you answered and I showed you that I disagree with your answer.   Mary's perpetual virginity is not needed to show any uniqueness to Christ and neither does it do anything for His Divinity.   It is not necessary.   The virgin birth was necessary.  Perpetual virginity is not.

 

 

I didn't suggest it was necessary.

 

You didn't ask if it was necessary.

 

You asked "why is it so important that Mary be a perpetual virgin?"

 

Typically you try and switch the terms in the middle of the discussion.

 

 

 

 

 

I can be sure because of what is written in the Scripture.

 

I can know the things revealed to us.  I can know the mind of God to the extent that I understand the Revelation He has given.

 

Stranger

 

You can know your personal (and presumable fallible) interpretation of what God has revealed to us.

 

But unless you consider yourself infallible you cannot be sure.


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Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts.

Prejudice is a great timesaver. It enables you to form opinions without bothering to get facts.

#20
Stranger

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Translation:

"That is way too much evidence and I'm not even going to try to refute it."

 

Nothing but a gigantic cop-out.

 

As to your question - about WHY it's "important" that Mary be a perpetual Virgin - it's because we believe in God.
His Word shows us through prophecy, type and fulfillment that she was to remain a virgin  If God lied about that - then ALL of Scripture is a lie.

 

God never said Mary was to be a perpetual virgin.  

 

Stranger


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#21
Stranger

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I didn't suggest it was necessary.

 

You didn't ask if it was necessary.

 

You asked "why is it so important that Mary be a perpetual virgin?"

 

Typically you try and switch the terms in the middle of the discussion.

 

 

 

 

You can know your personal (and presumable fallible) interpretation of what God has revealed to us.

 

But unless you consider yourself infallible you cannot be sure.

 

Well, just substitute the word 'necessary' to 'important'.   As you agree that perpetual virginity was not necessary for the salvation Christ accomplished, then you should be able to see the unimportance  of it.  

 

As I said, I can know the mind of God to the extent that I understand the Revelation He has given.

 

Stranger


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#22
Stranger

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Regardless of my standpoint, this made me chuckle!!! LOL 

 

I guess the same question could be asked the other way... Why is it important that she not be a virgin after Christs birth? What troubles me about a lot of these debates is it seems more time is taken to disprove each other than time spent following what Christ commanded us to do. I have recently be convicted in my circumstance of what my priorities are. I may start a thread to elaborate and ask a question or two of the forum. Carry on!! 

 

It is important the Mary not be a perpetual virgin because Scripture doesn't say she was.   And the Roman church has created a false doctrine concerning it.    

 

That is what debates are for.  To prove and disprove is all part of it.   It affects what people will believe.  

 

Stranger


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#23
kepha31

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There are certain common Jewish and Christian beliefs about sanctity. Objectors have lost the sense of the sacred, which I can only describe as spirits or threads of the Manichee, Bogomil and  Cathari heresies ( false dualisms; nothing on this earth can be sacred)infecting Modernist Protestantism. . The idea that Mary loses her acquired temple sanctity once Jesus is delivered is odd, for in Judaism and Christianity holy things do not revert to common use once they’re taken out of sacred service. It may not be strictly necessary that the Virgin Mary remain the Perpetual Virgin Mary, but it is certainly fitting. (Theology often does best when it operates less according to the logic of strict necessity and more according to the logic of propriety, thus avoiding every deracinating reductionism.)

 

Why fitting? Because St. Matthew’s Gospel teaches that Mary has been a holy vessel. Having had “Emmanuel,” God incarnate, in her womb, could it be returned to common use? Unlikely. If the Ark of the Old Testament were recovered today, would anyone of any piety dare use it (say) as a trunk or footlocker? Neither is it likely that Joseph would have treated the New Ark of the Covenant in a common way. Or ask contemporary Orthodox Jews about the Wailing Wall. Though the Temple in Jerusalem was leveled by the Romans almost two thousand years ago in 70 C.E., Jews still gather there to pray at this one wall remaining; the site retains its sanctity.

 

This is why Modernist Protestants are forced to deny the numerous foreshadows of the Old Ark with the New Ark. "The Ark of the New Covenant is not in the Bible!!!" So the mantra goes. It's theological brain damage.

 

There is this claim:

 

“Temples are holy only when the Holy One inhabits them. Once Yahweh abandoned the temple, it was an empty shell for demolition and burning.

 

On this basis the claim suggests by parallel that Mary loses her special status once Jesus is delivered. The parallel fails because in the world of St. Matthew’s Gospel the destruction of the temple is punishment for the murder of God’s Son; Jesus dies, and God flees the Holy of Holies through the rendered temple veil. Thus the Romans advance on Jerusalem a generation later, leveling the city and razing the temple. But Mary has done nothing deserving that sort of abandonment. Even if the Son departs her womb, she’s no “empty shell.”

 

Like the site of the temple for Jews, Christian vessels retain their sanctity: It simply would not be fitting for Catholics, or Orthodox, or (for that matter) Lutherans who have a high view of Holy Communion to (say) sell a worn-out chalice that has held the Blood of Christ at a parish rummage sale and have someone then use it to sip Cabernet while binge-watching the latest series on Netflix. Even after vessels, vestments, and sacramentals wear out, they retain their sanctity, and so require especial treatment and disposition. Mary’s womb having held God, then, it is simply not fitting that she and Joseph would have copulated in the normal way. Like temples and vessels, she retains her special sanctity.

 

Like the site of the temple for Jews, Christian vessels retain their sanctity: It simply would not be fitting for Catholics, or Orthodox, or (for that matter) Lutherans who have a high view of Holy Communion to (say) sell a worn-out chalice that has held the Blood of Christ at a parish rummage sale and have someone then use it to sip Cabernet while binge-watching the latest series on Netflix. Even after vessels, vestments, and sacramentals wear out, they retain their sanctity, and so require especial treatment and disposition. It would not be fitting to bulldoze the spot where Jesus died and erect a drug store.  Mary’s womb having held God, then, it is simply not fitting that she and Joseph would have copulated in the normal way. Like temples and vessels, she retains her special sanctity. 

 

We have post biblical writings indicating the Jewish custom of vows of perpetual virginity, the Protoevangelium of James, and John the Theologian but they are no good because it's not in the Bible. Well...it is, and Protestants are too quick to dismiss every historical document as "uninspired", therefore meaningless.  This is historical brain damage.

Vows for virginity, temporary or permanent (unheard of in our sex crazed culture, but common in the ancient world) are found in Numbers 30. <this site explains it well.

 

What gets me is an atheist university professor can remain celibate in order to devote all his time to his work, and is considered a valuable contributor to society, while the mother of Jesus gets thrown under the bus.

 

 

 

ww2.jpg

 Western Wall in Jerusalem.


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car·i·ca·ture
description of Church teaching which certain striking characteristics are exaggerated in order to create a comic or grotesque effect.

#24
Mungo

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Well, just substitute the word 'necessary' to 'important'.   As you agree that perpetual virginity was not necessary for the salvation Christ accomplished, then you should be able to see the unimportance  of it.  

 

I have not agreed that perpetual virginity was not necessary for the salvation Christ accomplished. You have the same laxity towards what people say on this forum as you have with scripture.

 

 

As I said, I can know the mind of God to the extent that I understand the Revelation He has given.

 

Stranger

 

You may think you understand the mind of God to the extent that your personal and fallible interpretation of scripture comprehends it.
 


Edited by Mungo, 21 April 2017 - 10:09 AM.

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Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts.

Prejudice is a great timesaver. It enables you to form opinions without bothering to get facts.

#25
Mungo

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It is important the Mary not be a perpetual virgin because Scripture doesn't say she was.      

 

 

So because scripture doesn't say 'X' happened then 'X' must not have happened.

 

Crazy logic

 

 

.And the Roman church has created a false doctrine concerning it.    

 

Something you have not proved.

 

Incidentally the Orthodox believe that Mary was ever-Virgin..


Edited by Mungo, 21 April 2017 - 10:15 AM.

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Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts.

Prejudice is a great timesaver. It enables you to form opinions without bothering to get facts.

#26
BreadOfLife

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God never said Mary was to be a perpetual virgin.  

 

Stranger

Sooooo - THAT'S your response to the over 300 verses I presented??
That's ALL you have to say??

 

God never said that Trump would be President..

Does that mean it's not true??

 

The only indisputable fact that remains in this conversation is the following:

Scripture NEVER says that Mary had children other than Jesus.
 


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#27
kepha31

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Well, just substitute the word 'necessary' to 'important'.   As you agree that perpetual virginity was not necessary for the salvation Christ accomplished, then you should be able to see the unimportance  of it.  

 

As I said, I can know the mind of God to the extent that I understand the Revelation He has given.

 

Stranger

I prefer "fitting".

 

It is important the Mary not be a perpetual virgin because Scripture doesn't say she was.   And the Roman church has created a false doctrine concerning it.    

 

The accumulated evidence, with the use of reason, says Mary was a perpetual virgin. Scripture gives sufficient inferences for a sound biblical conclusion. So do Jewish customs. Vows of perpetual virginity are found in Numbers 30. There is the general consensus of the ECF that you don't like because you have no part of them.  It is IMPOSSIBLE for the "Roman church" to create any doctrine, this is profound ignorance of what a doctrine is. 

That is what debates are for.  To prove and disprove is all part of it.   It affects what people will believe.  

 

 

You need to discard your created 19th century falsehoods.

An important historical document which supports the teaching of Mary’s perpetual virginity is the Protoevangelium of James, which was written probably less than sixty years after the conclusion of Mary’s earthly life (around A.D. 120), when memories of her life were still vivid in the minds of many. (it is not official Church teaching)

 

According to the world-renowned patristics scholar, Johannes Quasten: "The principal aim of the whole writing [Protoevangelium of James] is to prove the perpetual and inviolate virginity of Mary before, in, and after the birth of Christ" (Patrology, 1:120–1).

The full text can be found at New Advent Encyclopedia, this is a good summary


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car·i·ca·ture
description of Church teaching which certain striking characteristics are exaggerated in order to create a comic or grotesque effect.

#28
mjrhealth

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Mungo

 

Do you then see God as an abuser of women? Someone who took a wife from her husband for his own purposes and then handed her back after he had finished with her?

When a man sleeps with another mans wife, does it not make him an adulterer and her an adulteress. Good thing they where not married at the time. But than when we become christians we receive His seed, teh Holy Spirit, yet I dont feel raped.....

 

Mary being a perpetual virgin has nothing to do with christianity, just mens fables.

 

Mat 15:8  This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9  But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

 

Jer 44:25  Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows.
Jer 44:26  Therefore hear ye the word of the LORD, all Judah that dwell in the land of Egypt; Behold, I have sworn by my great name, saith the LORD, that my name shall no more be named in the mouth of any man of Judah in all the land of Egypt, saying, The Lord GOD liveth.
Jer 44:27  Behold, I will watch over them for evil, and not for good: and all the men of Judah that are in the land of Egypt shall be consumed by the sword and by the famine, until there be an end of them.


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The words that I SPEAK they are spirit and they are life. You search the scriptures, reading them thinking they bring you life, and they testify of Me yet you wont come to me so that you can have eternal life.


#29
BreadOfLife

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Mary being a perpetual virgin has nothing to do with christianity, just mens fables.

And you've been shown repeatedly that the Bible disagrees with this statement.It's no longer a matter of choosing to remain "ignorant."

It's a blatant refusal of the word of God.

 

Luke writes, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that Mary's intention was to remain a virgin.

Luke 1:34
Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?

 

Mary was a betrothed girl who knew about marital relations. She didn’t say “How can this be, since I have not known a man?” She said “How can this be, since I do not know a man?
She was stating her intention to remain a virgin and was puzzled by Gabriel’s announcement that she was to have a child.  She knew that God was aware of her intentions.  Her bewilderment and the words “I do not know”, as opposed to “I have not known”, is clear evidence that she had NO intention of having marital relations.

 

Being the fulfillment of the Ark of the Covenant - she was not to be handled by man.
 

Ezekiel 44:2
 The Lord said to me, “This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered through it. 

 

The idea that Mary had other children or did not remain a virgin is a relatively NEW man made invention, historically speaking.
The so-called "Reformers" rejected this idea - as did 1600 years of Christianity before them.


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#30
FHII

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It is true that sometimes the Bible uses the term "brother" to mean a family member, countrymen or spiritual relation. We know this is true because the Bible also clarifies the relationship somewhere else. Lot and Abraham for example. One berse says they were brothers but also clarifies that Abraham was his uncle.

There are also times when the word "brother" means they had the same mother. We can look at all the examples, crunch numbers, boast percentages, but its all meaningless: the only example is the one we are dealing with right now.

So when we look at Mat 13:55-56 we see evidence of a nuclear family. They call him the son of a Carpenter (Joseph), Mary his mother, of course the alledged brothers and it also mentions sisters. Sure, "sisters" a few times means female church members, but more often than not it means siblings.

Everything here suggests a nuclear family. Furthermore they were suggesting Jesus was just a normal man... Not something special.

As far as I am concerned, this is talking about Mary's other children.
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