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The unforgiveable sin ?

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#1
twinc

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what is it - is it one off or widespread - why is it unforgiveable etc ? - any comments - twinc


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#2
twinc

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what is it - is it one off or widespread - why is it unforgiveable etc ? - any comments - twinc

 

 

it seems no one knows - twinc


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#3
Stranger

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twinc

 

No, seems no one is interested.  

 

Perhaps you should state your view, which you already have, and then maybe there would be some participation.   Or, are you saying you are ignorant of what the unforgivable sin is and want to know?

 

Stranger


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#4
twinc

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twinc
 
No, seems no one is interested.  
 
Perhaps you should state your view, which you already have, and then maybe there would be some participation.   Or, are you saying you are ignorant of what the unforgivable sin is and want to know?
 
Stranger



as you have stated I have already stated mine so how about yours - twinc
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#5
Stranger

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as you have stated I have already stated mine so how about yours - twinc

 

Sorry, I don't see where.  There is a similar topic under the 'Christian Theology' section called 'blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable'.  First page about three quarters of the way down.  

 

Stranger


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#6
dorian37grey

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the unforgivable sin ; is a sin only a christian can do ( in a way) 

it requires the condition of having "had" the holy spirit - in order to blaspheme the holy spirit

in essence ; it is having had it ; then walking away from it

 

the reason it is "unpardonable is ;

 the process it took to get to the holy spirit ; required losing the old man 

the old man being lost was a step in getting to be the new man 

 

the old man ( body and soul) was in debt to sin 

Jesus came in the flesh ; to pay the price( kinsman redeem)  of the body 

thus freeing the soul to be joined by ...

new creation ( soul and holy spirit) 

 

once the soul has been freed from the fate of the body ; there is no body to be kinsman redeemed again 

thus; it is unpardonable ( because no method is left ) 

 

MATTHEW 12 : 43-45 ;  is referring to this ( that freed soul ; once cleaned and no longer with the holy spirit) 


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#7
Wormwood

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The unforgivable sin was the sin of the Pharisees seeing the good and miraculous works of Jesus done by the power of the Holy Spirit and attributing those good works to Satan.  I guess it is unforgivable because Jesus declared it as much.  Seems Jesus didn't care if people didn't think well of him, but to blaspheme the Holy Spirit was not something God was willing to put up with.


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#8
Stranger

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Christians have a tendency to associate this sin with eternal life only.   In other words, if one has ever committed the unpardonable sin then he or she is doomed forever.   And that is not true.  It does mean that if one does commit this sin that there is coming a judgement from God for that.   But one can still repent and come to Christ for salvation.  

 

The Pharisees had rejected Christ many times already.  Yet God in His mercy withheld  judgement.   But with this attributing the works of the Holy Spirit  to Satan, there will be no forgiveness.  Judgement is coming.   Israel rejected Christ, now God rejects Israel.   

 

On the cross, the only people Christ was forgiving were those who were the ones who were crucifying Him and having him crucified.   On the cross Jesus was not forgiving the sins of the world.  He was paying for the sins of the world.  And because He paid for them all, He can forgive.  

 

Thus, though our sins as Christians have been paid for, we still come to Christ seeking forgiveness. (1John 1:9) "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

 

Stranger


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#9
twinc

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The unforgivable sin was the sin of the Pharisees seeing the good and miraculous works of Jesus done by the power of the Holy Spirit and attributing those good works to Satan.  I guess it is unforgivable because Jesus declared it as much.  Seems Jesus didn't care if people didn't think well of him, but to blaspheme the Holy Spirit was not something God was willing to put up with.

The unforgivable sin was the sin of the Pharisees seeing the good and miraculous works of Jesus done by the power of the Holy Spirit and attributing those good works to Satan.  I guess it is unforgivable because Jesus declared it as much.  Seems Jesus didn't care if people didn't think well of him, but to blaspheme the Holy Spirit was not something God was willing to put up with.



it is unforgiveable because those who have committed it are unlikely to repent and many are already dead nobody is going trrepent or admit that they and not the supposed and claimed inspiration via the H/S has produced the fruits of division, divergence, ddifferences, disputes , confusion and chaos and much worse also etc - twinc
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#10
lforrest

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it is unforgiveable because those who have committed it are unlikely to repent and many are already dead nobody is going trrepent or admit that they and not the supposed and claimed inspiration via the H/S has produced the fruits of division, divergence, ddifferences, disputes , confusion and chaos and much worse also etc - twinc


The prodestant reformation began by rejecting the authority of the Catholic Church to interpret scripture. They took an opposing view which rejects any source of revelation and interpretation other than the Bible, Sola scriptura. It changed since then, but my point is division came first at the reformation. Then other Churches formed, believing in Holy Spirit inspiration by the freedom that followed the reformation.
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#11
BreadOfLife

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The prodestant reformation began by rejecting the authority of the Catholic Church to interpret scripture. They took an opposing view which rejects any source of revelation and interpretation other than the Bible, Sola scriptura. It changed since then, but my point is division came first at the reformation. Then other Churches formed, believing in Holy Spirit inspiration by the freedom that followed the reformation.

Most Christian scholars - Catholic and Protestant - agree that the "unforgivable" sin is final impenitence.

The refusal of the Holy spirit's call to repent.

 

ALL sins can be forgiven as long as we are alive and repent.
This sin is unforgivable because it was never repented of.


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"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." - G.K. Chesterton


#12
Stranger

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Most Christian scholars - Catholic and Protestant - agree that the "unforgivable" sin is final impenitence.

The refusal of the Holy spirit's call to repent.

 

ALL sins can be forgiven as long as we are alive and repent.
This sin is unforgivable because it was never repented of.

 

No, the unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.   Repentance is not an issue.     

 

This sin cannot be repented of.  That is the whole point.   But, salvation, eternal destiny is not what is in view here.  

 

Reread (or read the Scriptures) again.  (Matt. 12:9-32)

 

Stranger


Edited by Stranger, 10 April 2017 - 02:05 PM.

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#13
BreadOfLife

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No, the unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.   Repentance is not an issue.     

 

This sin cannot be repented of.  That is the whole point.   But, salvation, eternal destiny is not what is in view here.  

 

Reread (or read the Scriptures) again.  (Matt. 12:9-32)

 

Stranger

Wrong.  

ALL sin can be repented of in your lifetime.

 

In context, Jesus was referring to the Pharisees who KNEW He was the Christ by the guidance of the Holy Spirit and STILL rejected Him.

They blasphemed by claiming that Jesus' power was from the Devil and not from above.

 

Like I said - most credible Scripture scholars agree with that assessment.


Edited by BreadOfLife, 10 April 2017 - 02:25 PM.

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"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." - G.K. Chesterton


#14
Stranger

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Wrong.  

ALL sin can be repented of in your lifetime.

 

In context, Jesus was referring to the Pharisees who KNEW He was the Christ by the guidance of the Holy Spirit and STILL rejected Him.

They blasphemed by claiming that Jesus' power was from the Devil and not from above.

 

Like I said - most credible Scripture scholars agree with that assessment.

 

No, repentance is from God.  He allows it or He doesn't. He doesn't have to.  It is not a question of salvation as far as eternal destination.  It is a question of your life here and now with God.

 

For example, Do you think Moses is in Heaven now?   I assume you do, but, who knows.

 

Well, God was angry with Moses for striking the Rock in the wilderness when he should have spoke to the Rock as God said.  (Num.20:7-13)  But he didn't.   But God was merciful and water came forth anyway.   But God remembered what Moses did.  And as a result, Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land.  (Num.20:12)

 

Moses later tried to repent of this sin.  (Deut.3:23-27) .  But God refused it, saying, "speak no more unto me of this matter...for thou shalt not go over this Jordan."   You see.  Moses tried to repent but God refused.   Moses still went to Heaven.  But he suffered the judgement of God for what he did.  Thus, your statement that all sin can be repented of is false.  But that doesn't mean one doesn't go to Heaven.  

 

(Heb.6:1-3) "...let us go unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works...And this will we do, if God permit."    The fact is, God may not permit.   He may bring judgement  on the believer.  It is His decision.  

 

Go ahead and 'follow' your 'credible' scholars.  And ignore the Scriptures.

 

Stranger


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#15
Wormwood

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Well, obviously, there are a lot of views among scholars on this issue.  However, my pov, for what it is worth, is that God would not forgive this sin.  Jesus didn't say it was a sin that would keep a person from repenting.  He said it was a sin that God would not pardon.  In other words, if you commit this sin, you will not receive forgiveness.  Personally, I think saying that it amounts to any sin we refuse to repent of misses the point and the context.  The Pharisees are saying Jesus' good works were done by the devil.  Jesus tells them that to blaspheme the HS is something God will not forgive.  I don't think it applies to us because we are not walking around with Jesus watching him do miraculous works.


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#16
twinc

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Well, obviously, there are a lot of views among scholars on this issue.  However, my pov, for what it is worth, is that God would not forgive this sin.  Jesus didn't say it was a sin that would keep a person from repenting.  He said it was a sin that God would not pardon.  In other words, if you commit this sin, you will not receive forgiveness.  Personally, I think saying that it amounts to any sin we refuse to repent of misses the point and the context.  The Pharisees are saying Jesus' good works were done by the devil.  Jesus tells them that to blaspheme the HS is something God will not forgive.  I don't think it applies to us because we are not walking around with Jesus watching him do miraculous works.



how about all the fruits of the H/S after all these centuries of claimed inspiration, guidance and indwelling = division, divergence, differences, disputes, confusion, chaos and much else also - all this attributed to the H/S - this truly is
unforgiveable blasphemy - twinc


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#17
BreadOfLife

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No, repentance is from God.  He allows it or He doesn't. He doesn't have to.  It is not a question of salvation as far as eternal destination.  It is a question of your life here and now with God.

 

For example, Do you think Moses is in Heaven now?   I assume you do, but, who knows.

 

Well, God was angry with Moses for striking the Rock in the wilderness when he should have spoke to the Rock as God said.  (Num.20:7-13)  But he didn't.   But God was merciful and water came forth anyway.   But God remembered what Moses did.  And as a result, Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land.  (Num.20:12)

 

Moses later tried to repent of this sin.  (Deut.3:23-27) .  But God refused it, saying, "speak no more unto me of this matter...for thou shalt not go over this Jordan."   You see.  Moses tried to repent but God refused.   Moses still went to Heaven.  But he suffered the judgement of God for what he did.  Thus, your statement that all sin can be repented of is false.  But that doesn't mean one doesn't go to Heaven.  

 

(Heb.6:1-3) "...let us go unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works...And this will we do, if God permit."    The fact is, God may not permit.   He may bring judgement  on the believer.  It is His decision.  

 

Go ahead and 'follow' your 'credible' scholars.  And ignore the Scriptures.

 

Stranger

No - grace is from God.  Repentance is our cooperation with that grace.

 

Your Moses reference is WEAK at best.

The Bible teaches that although we are forgiven when we repent - the temporal punishment may still exist.

 

David was forgiven for having Uriah killed so that he could have his wife.

HOWEVER, the sword never left David's house.

 

Here is a perfect example of this:  Suppose, you were a promiscuous person who contracted HIV and finally repented of his sin.  Is that the end of it??

OR, do you still have to deal with the fact that you contracted HIV??  Does your forgiveness automatically mean that your HIV disappears??

 

If I break my neighbor's window in anger and repent of it - does the window fix itself - or does somebody ave to still pay for it???

ALL sin can be forgiven - if we cooperate with the grace to repent.  Rejection of the Holy Spirit's call to repent is only unforgivable if we die without heeding His call.

 

The context of what Jesus said regarding the Pharisees points to the fact that the only "unforgiveable" sin is final impenitence.

BUT, context never seems to be your friend . . .


Edited by BreadOfLife, 11 April 2017 - 07:47 AM.

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#18
Stranger

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No - grace is from God.  Repentance is our cooperation with that grace.

 

Your Moses reference is WEAK at best.

The Bible teaches that although we are forgiven when we repent - the temporal punishment may still exist.

 

David was forgiven for having Uriah killed so that he could have his wife.

HOWEVER, the sword never left David's house.

 

Here is a perfect example of this:  Suppose, you were a promiscuous person who contracted HIV and finally repented of his sin.  Is that the end of it??

OR, do you still have to deal with the fact that you contracted HIV??  Does your forgiveness automatically mean that your HIV disappears??

 

If I break my neighbor's window in anger and repent of it - does the window fix itself - or does somebody ave to still pay for it???

ALL sin can be forgiven - if we cooperate with the grace to repent.  Rejection of the Holy Spirit's call to repent is only unforgivable if we die without heeding His call.

 

The context of what Jesus said regarding the Pharisees points to the fact that the only "unforgiveable" sin is final impenitence.

BUT, context never seems to be your friend . . .

 

Again, repentance plays no role in the unforgiveable sin.  Jesus clearly states that "it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."   (Matt.12:32)  

 

If this sin is committed by a believer, then judgment from God will come.  But his salvation is still secure.  If this sin is committed by a non-believer, then judgement from God will come.  But he can still be saved if he turns to Christ.  

 

It has to do with judgement and forgiveness here and now.  If any non-believer commits this sin, he doesn't go to hell because of this sin. He goes to hell for refusing to accept Christ as his Lord and Saviour.  

 

Stranger


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#19
BreadOfLife

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Again, repentance plays no role in the unforgiveable sin.  Jesus clearly states that "it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."   (Matt.12:32)  

 

If this sin is committed by a believer, then judgment from God will come.  But his salvation is still secure.  If this sin is committed by a non-believer, then judgement from God will come.  But he can still be saved if he turns to Christ.  

 

It has to do with judgement and forgiveness here and now.  If any non-believer commits this sin, he doesn't go to hell because of this sin. He goes to hell for refusing to accept Christ as his Lord and Saviour.  

 

Stranger

No – the crux of this debate is whether or not this “unforgivable” sin is indeed unforgivable.

You have just agreed with me that it CAN be forgiven – so case closed.

And, it doesn’t matter WHO commits the sin of final impenitence.
Anybody who is impenitent will not be saved.


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#20
Stranger

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No – the crux of this debate is whether or not this “unforgivable” sin is indeed unforgivable.

You have just agreed with me that it CAN be forgiven – so case closed.

And, it doesn’t matter WHO commits the sin of final impenitence.
Anybody who is impenitent will not be saved.

 

I said in post #18 that it shall not be forgiven.   Now you say I agree with you that it can be forgiven.    So, how is case closed?  Maybe in your mind.  

 

The unpardonable sin is not a question of eternal destiny.   

 

Stranger


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#21
BreadOfLife

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I said in post #18 that it shall not be forgiven.   Now you say I agree with you that it can be forgiven.    So, how is case closed?  Maybe in your mind.  

 

The unpardonable sin is not a question of eternal destiny.   

 

Stranger

WHAT??

An unpardoned sin absolutely has eternal consequences.
 

Do you actually believe that you can sin against God - He refuses to pardon you - and you can STILL enter Heaven??

That is complete nonsense.

 

As for the sin being unpardonable - YOU said:

"If this sin is committed by a believer, then judgment from God will come.  But his salvation is still secure.  If this sin is committed by a non-believer, then judgement from God will come.  But he can still be saved if he turns to Christ."

 

Either you are forgiven or you're not.

There is NO in-between . . .


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#22
Stranger

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WHAT??

An unpardoned sin absolutely has eternal consequences.
 

Do you actually believe that you can sin against God - He refuses to pardon you - and you can STILL enter Heaven??

That is complete nonsense.

 

As for the sin being unpardonable - YOU said:

"If this sin is committed by a believer, then judgment from God will come.  But his salvation is still secure.  If this sin is committed by a non-believer, then judgement from God will come.  But he can still be saved if he turns to Christ."

 

Either you are forgiven or you're not.

There is NO in-between . . .

 

Go back and reread my post #8.   Forgiveness has nothing to do with the penalty paid.   In other words, concerning eternal destiny, either your sins are paid for or they are not.  It is not a question of if they are forgiven.   Christ can forgive, because He paid the price.  When He was dying on the cross, He was not forgiving sins, He was paying the price for sin.

 

Stranger


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#23
Mungo

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 Christ can forgive, because He paid the price.  When He was dying on the cross, He was not forgiving sins, He was paying the price for sin.

 

Stranger

 

I've asked this before and you have never answered, so I expect you will dodge it this time.

 

What do you mean Jesus paid the price?

 

Is that literal or metaphoric?

 

Who did he pay this price to?


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Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts.

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#24
Stranger

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I've asked this before and you have never answered, so I expect you will dodge it this time.

 

What do you mean Jesus paid the price?

 

Is that literal or metaphoric?

 

Who did he pay this price to?

 

Where did you ask this before that I did not answer?  Be specific. 

 

That Jesus paid the price for sin is literal.  It is not a metaphor.  

 

Jesus paid the price to God.

 

Stranger


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#25
BreadOfLife

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Go back and reread my post #8.   Forgiveness has nothing to do with the penalty paid.   In other words, concerning eternal destiny, either your sins are paid for or they are not.  It is not a question of if they are forgiven.   Christ can forgive, because He paid the price.  When He was dying on the cross, He was not forgiving sins, He was paying the price for sin.

 

Stranger

He paid for all sins but the application of that is ONLY for those who repent.

NOBODY gets into Heaven having refused to repent.

 

This is Christianity 101 . . .


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#26
Stranger

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He paid for all sins but the application of that is ONLY for those who repent.

NOBODY gets into Heaven having refused to repent.

 

This is Christianity 101 . . .

 

The subject in discussion is the sin that God will not forgive.  Which is Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. 

 

As I have said, Jesus was not forgiving sin on the cross.  He was paying the price for sin.   Forgiveness comes only after the price is paid.  Else Christ cannot forgive.  

 

Repentance is not even part of the equation here.   The sin is unforgivable.  The person who committed it will receive some serious judgement from God in this life.

 

Your problem here is that you want to make this sin a sin of finality meaning one is destined for hell and that cannot be changed.   And that is not true.   Ones eternal destiny is obtained only by faith in Christ as the Son of God and Saviour.   Which means one can commit this sin and still be saved.   They may not be.  But they can be.   With no help from you though.  

 

Stranger


Edited by Stranger, 11 April 2017 - 02:44 PM.

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#27
dorian37grey

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what is missing from much of this talk is ... 

 

will not be pardoned * in this life * or the next 

 

this isnt about coming to Jesus ; this is about already coming to Jesus and then walking away 

 

this isnt i wont forgive you ; it is * the process by which one is saved "" cant"" be done over again 

 

something was used up ; the first time * and in fact --- no longer exists 

 

making the process of salvation ( not unforgivable ) unpardonable ( not possible) 

 

1 john 5: 16 -- speaks on this 

 

sin not leading to death is only for those who have come to Christ * received the holy spirit 

 

but to walk away after that point ( receiving the holy spirit ) would be blasphemy of the holy spirit

 

and ;

 

unable to get back to the point of receiving the holy spirit again   


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#28
Mungo

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Where did you ask this before that I did not answer?  Be specific. 

 

That Jesus paid the price for sin is literal.  It is not a metaphor.  

 

Jesus paid the price to God.

 

Stranger

 

You haven't answered my question "What do you mean Jesus paid the price?"

 

What is this "price"?

 

Jesus is God. Did Jesus pay this "price" to himself? That makes no sense.


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Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts.

Prejudice is a great timesaver. It enables you to form opinions without bothering to get facts.

#29
Born_Again

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Wow! Twinc pulled a seagull. Landed, crapped, and took off HAHA!!!  


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#30
Stranger

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You haven't answered my question "What do you mean Jesus paid the price?"

 

What is this "price"?

 

Jesus is God. Did Jesus pay this "price" to himself? That makes no sense.

 

Go to the 'Christian Debate Forum'.  Find the subject "Why is Christianity so focused on sin".   Go to post #64.  Begin.  Take notes and get back with me.  You have several pages to go through.

 

Stranger


Edited by Stranger, 12 April 2017 - 07:33 AM.

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