[quote name='Joshua David' timestamp='1297781401' post='100782'] Ok it seems as if we are going around in circles. I do see your points, but I don't accept them. I do not believe in a partial rapture, and I do not believe that the 24 elders are angels, for angels are never said to wear crowns. Since these elder's are wearing crowns they can't be angels. And we can go back and forth and back and forth. Suffice to say that you made your point, and I understand why you believe partly the way you do.[/quote]
You would have to overturn the conditional statements in Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36 and Rev. 3.10 for the first rapture according to readiness "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9). I haven't seen you do that yet. These angels have crowns crowns because they are not any angels, but the 24 archangels of which Satan use to be one when he was Lucifer, and Michael is an archangel. They are the ruling party in heaven. Nowhere does it say in the Bible the archangels can't wear crowns. You've asserted something you have no evidence for. But since they reign as the archangels do, naturally they were crowns. Crowns are indication of kingship and they are certainly the eldest elders of the universe.
I haven't seen you address anywhere that these 24 elders take up the prayers of the saints to heaven; this is not something the Church does. We don't take up our own prayers to heaven, but the angels do this for us in the vials. "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" (Rev. 5.8). It's really important you don't shut your mind down to this. I am not sure how the text could be any clearer these elders are therefore angels, specifically 24 archangels and the 4 four beasts whom are representatives of all creation in for animal classes (we can get into that later if you like).
You're confusing the righteousness of Christ that we are clothed with to be able to come before the Father and the consequences of a Christian being fleshly. Paul was seeking the first resurrection which is an "out-resurrection" to be included in Rev. 20.4 to reign during the 1000 years as well as the first rapture, for he mentioned there are firstfruits and a later harvest (1 Cor. 15.23, 1 Thess. 4.14-18) and there are some other passages that are really good, http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Partial_rapture.htm. I like how Paul said in 1 Thess. 4 those who are "alive" and "left" which is redundant, for obviously those who are alive are left. What is meant is those who were not first raptured "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) before the first trumpet of the Tribulation (8.7ff) would be included in those who are left. I highly encourage you read through the "Partial Rapture Proof". Expand your horizons.
You're again confusing our secure redemption clothed with Christ and mingling it with rewards. They are not the same thing. Though it is true a Christian can't lose eternal life, he can certainly lose the rewards, for there a consequences for Christians who lie on a bed of fornication, want to be antinomian such as yourself, and are like a balloon tied down to the world unwilling to be released. God does not write blank cheques. He is realistic and there are consequences. To deny this is to deny being a Christian and worship a false Christ. There are hundreds if not thousands of verses alling believers to overcometh.
I think you will find it interesting the bride in Rev. 19 is not the same bride of the whole Church. 19.7 Who is this “wife” of the Lamb? It cannot be the church for the following reasons: (1) The great multitude spoken of in 19.1 includes the saved among the children of Israel as well as from among the nations. The church is definitely included. Since it is the great multitude who proclaims the words found in 19.7, the church must therefore be included among those who make such a proclamation. And hence the wife must point to someone else.
(2) In the parable of the ten virgins (Matt. 25.1-13), only the five wise virgins (and therefore not all who are in the church, for notice that all ten are virgins) are privileged to attend the marriage feast.
(3) This wife of the Lamb is different from the bride in Paul’s epistles. For she whom Paul speaks of is clothed with Christ, whereas the wife here is clothed with her own righteousnesses. In Paul’s epistles the church as a whole is viewed as the bride of Christ. In Revelation, the church is considered according to her components (advanced party vs. non-overcomer party), therefore the responsibility of the church before God is stressed. In Paul’s epistles the church is accepted in Christ, but in Revelation the church is accepted in her works. In Paul’s epistles the church in totality belongs to Christ, while in Revelation she is divided into the saved and the overcomers. All believers are saved but not all believers are overcomers. We all overcome who are in Christ but not at the same time. Let us be realistic about this for only those who overcometh reign over the nations (Rev. 2.26).
This wife of the Lamb is none other than the New Jerusalem (21.9,10).
God is now in His holy temple, so that the voices of praise from the great multitude come also from the temple. During the millennial kingdom the overcomers shall be kings in the city and priests in the temple. But the temple shall gradually lose its prominence until it totally disappears, for God and the Lamb will be the temple in New Jerusalem in the new heaven and the new earth.
Of the church, some (for example, the five wise virgins) will attend the marriage feast, while some (for example, the five foolish virgins) will not be able to attend the marriage feast. Considering your take on you I can be 100% certain you will not return with Christ to reign over the nations for the 1000 years. At worst your antinomian stance indicates that you might not even be born again, one of those wou talked about who claim to be Christian but are not because you never truly gave your life to Christ unto regeneration.
Source: 2,520 Days Of The Tribulation Feast Of Trumpets 2015 To Tisha B'av 2022
You would have to overturn the conditional statements in Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36 and Rev. 3.10 for the first rapture according to readiness "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9). I haven't seen you do that yet. These angels have crowns crowns because they are not any angels, but the 24 archangels of which Satan use to be one when he was Lucifer, and Michael is an archangel. They are the ruling party in heaven. Nowhere does it say in the Bible the archangels can't wear crowns. You've asserted something you have no evidence for. But since they reign as the archangels do, naturally they were crowns. Crowns are indication of kingship and they are certainly the eldest elders of the universe.
I haven't seen you address anywhere that these 24 elders take up the prayers of the saints to heaven; this is not something the Church does. We don't take up our own prayers to heaven, but the angels do this for us in the vials. "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" (Rev. 5.8). It's really important you don't shut your mind down to this. I am not sure how the text could be any clearer these elders are therefore angels, specifically 24 archangels and the 4 four beasts whom are representatives of all creation in for animal classes (we can get into that later if you like).
There is a firstfruits and a later harvest. We whom are in Christ all overcometh, but not at the same time. Hence, the 7 churches are called to overcometh, but obviously in such a declaration some do not overcometh, otherwise there would be no need to call us to overcometh. Hence, we see consequences to not overcoming as God would have us: 1) not being received at the first rapture, because you did not keep the word of His patience to escape the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world (Rev. 3.10), and 2) you won't return with Christ to reign in the 1000 years because you are like one of the 5 unwise virgins who did not fill up their lamps with oil of the Holy Spirit.
You're confusing the righteousness of Christ that we are clothed with to be able to come before the Father and the consequences of a Christian being fleshly. Paul was seeking the first resurrection which is an "out-resurrection" to be included in Rev. 20.4 to reign during the 1000 years as well as the first rapture, for he mentioned there are firstfruits and a later harvest (1 Cor. 15.23, 1 Thess. 4.14-18) and there are some other passages that are really good, http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Partial_rapture.htm. I like how Paul said in 1 Thess. 4 those who are "alive" and "left" which is redundant, for obviously those who are alive are left. What is meant is those who were not first raptured "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) before the first trumpet of the Tribulation (8.7ff) would be included in those who are left. I highly encourage you read through the "Partial Rapture Proof". Expand your horizons.
That's a false statement you need to repent of to say there are Christians going to Hell. A Christian is defined as a member of the body of Christ who shall never perish. So you are dead wrong when you said, "There are plenty of Christians who do not have..." You can be rest assurred when Jesus returns there is a first rapture according to readiness (Rev. 3.10, 7.9, 11.15, 12.15, 14.14-16) and a later harvest according to completion (14.14-16, 1 Thess. 4.15-17).
You're again confusing our secure redemption clothed with Christ and mingling it with rewards. They are not the same thing. Though it is true a Christian can't lose eternal life, he can certainly lose the rewards, for there a consequences for Christians who lie on a bed of fornication, want to be antinomian such as yourself, and are like a balloon tied down to the world unwilling to be released. God does not write blank cheques. He is realistic and there are consequences. To deny this is to deny being a Christian and worship a false Christ. There are hundreds if not thousands of verses alling believers to overcometh.
I think you will find it interesting the bride in Rev. 19 is not the same bride of the whole Church. 19.7 Who is this “wife” of the Lamb? It cannot be the church for the following reasons: (1) The great multitude spoken of in 19.1 includes the saved among the children of Israel as well as from among the nations. The church is definitely included. Since it is the great multitude who proclaims the words found in 19.7, the church must therefore be included among those who make such a proclamation. And hence the wife must point to someone else.
(2) In the parable of the ten virgins (Matt. 25.1-13), only the five wise virgins (and therefore not all who are in the church, for notice that all ten are virgins) are privileged to attend the marriage feast.
(3) This wife of the Lamb is different from the bride in Paul’s epistles. For she whom Paul speaks of is clothed with Christ, whereas the wife here is clothed with her own righteousnesses. In Paul’s epistles the church as a whole is viewed as the bride of Christ. In Revelation, the church is considered according to her components (advanced party vs. non-overcomer party), therefore the responsibility of the church before God is stressed. In Paul’s epistles the church is accepted in Christ, but in Revelation the church is accepted in her works. In Paul’s epistles the church in totality belongs to Christ, while in Revelation she is divided into the saved and the overcomers. All believers are saved but not all believers are overcomers. We all overcome who are in Christ but not at the same time. Let us be realistic about this for only those who overcometh reign over the nations (Rev. 2.26).
This wife of the Lamb is none other than the New Jerusalem (21.9,10).
God is now in His holy temple, so that the voices of praise from the great multitude come also from the temple. During the millennial kingdom the overcomers shall be kings in the city and priests in the temple. But the temple shall gradually lose its prominence until it totally disappears, for God and the Lamb will be the temple in New Jerusalem in the new heaven and the new earth.
Of the church, some (for example, the five wise virgins) will attend the marriage feast, while some (for example, the five foolish virgins) will not be able to attend the marriage feast. Considering your take on you I can be 100% certain you will not return with Christ to reign over the nations for the 1000 years. At worst your antinomian stance indicates that you might not even be born again, one of those wou talked about who claim to be Christian but are not because you never truly gave your life to Christ unto regeneration.
Source: 2,520 Days Of The Tribulation Feast Of Trumpets 2015 To Tisha B'av 2022
