Israel And The Church

[veteran]

This might be a bit long, but those who discipline theirselves in God's Word about this should begin to see it.

All those in Christ Jesus should thoroughly study what Apostle Paul taught in Galatians about those of Faith like Abraham having become "the children of Abraham". Paul was specific that the Promise by Fatih was always first, before the giving of the law through Moses (even 430 years before). Paul even said The Gospel was preached to Abraham (Gal.3). In John 8 our Lord Jesus would even say that Abraham saw His day, and was glad.

So did Abraham know about The Gospel of Jesus Christ unto Salvation?

I say yes, even though Abraham may not have been shown the detail of Christ's crucifixion that was still future in Abraham's day. Our Lord in John 8 reveals Abraham knew some things about Christ's Salvation when He said Abraham rejoiced to see His day, and he saw it, and was glad (John 8:56).

All that is important to understanding the real meaning of God's Church which is the Body of Christ and God's Israel. How God defines His Israel in His Word is what's important, not how men's traditions try to define His Israel.

The name Israel has always been connected to God's Salvation Plan through His Son Jesus Christ and His Church. Notice I said the 'name' or title of Israel (means to 'prevail with God').

Christ's Church is the same Church of God from Old Testament times, all the way back to Abraham with the Promise by Faith God first gave through him. That's actually what Apostle Paul is showing us in Galatians 3. It continued under the New Covenant with believing Gentiles being graffed in (Rom.11). That Promise has always been about Christ's Salvation, even back to Abraham. Many who believed by Faith like Abraham in Old Testament times simply didn't get to live to see it. But some no doubt knew some things about it like Abraham. Many of them simply didn't understand yet. And the rest were blinded.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is written in the Old Testament Books too. David was even given details of Christ's later crucifixion upon the cross, even around 1,000 years before it happenned (Ps.22). Isaiah was given much about Christ's Salvation, including some events of His delivering up and crucifixion, and His Salvation Promise going to the Gentiles.

That Promise by Faith first given to Abraham included God's Birthright Promises. How many even know that God has a Birthright specifically linked to that Promise by Faith first given through Abraham? That's why it's very important for us Christians to know what God's Birthright contains, for it's about His Promised blessings linked with His Salvation Promise by Faith on Christ Jesus first given through Abraham. God's Birthright can be traced from Abraham, then to his son Isaac, then to Jacob and further, all the way down to the present with the Body of Christ. And it has always included the name Israel (notice I said the 'name').

But first consider Jacob and the new name of Israel God gave him. Jacob wrestled with the Angel of The LORD and overcame, and would not let go until he received a blessing (Gen.32). Jacob was given the new name of Israel, because with God he prevailed. Yet even after that, Jacob was still called by his original name of Jacob. What was our Heavenly Father pointing to with giving Jacob that new name of Israel, which means to prevail with God?

God chose the seed of Israel (from Jacob) to be caretakers of His Salvation Plan through His Son Jesus Christ, that Promise by Faith He first gave through Abraham (Galatians 3, remember?). But as our Lord Jesus and His Apostle Paul quoted from Isaiah, "who hath believed our report?" (Isa.53; John 12; Rom.10). That "report" in Isaiah 53 was about our Lord Jesus coming to die on the cross. But the majority of the seed of Israel refused that "report" in Isaiah about Christ's coming to die on the cross. Our Lord Jesus mentioned that also in John 12 how the majority of the seed of Israel had been spiritually blinded by God so as to not see it (Isaiah 29). Paul taught about that also in Romans 11 and Acts 28:26. (See also Matt.13:13; Matt.15:14; Mark 4:12; Luke 8:10; John 9:39).

Because the majority of the seed of Israel was blinded to God's Promise of Salvation by Faith through Christ Jesus, what do you think God did with His Birthright promises to Israel? Did God put His Birthright promises in abeyance, make it dormant, since many of the chosen seed of Israel refused Christ Jesus? Did God's promises associated with His Promise by Faith through Abraham end because of unbelieving literal Israel? Some would have us believe they ended, but if you claim Christ Jesus as your Saviour, then you should realize God's promises connected with His Birthright which are part of His Promise by Faith did not end with the unbelieving seed of Israel.

This is why our Lord Jesus in Matthew 21 at the end of the parable of the husbandmen said His "vineyard" would taken away from unbelieving Israel, and instead given to another "nation" that would bring forth its fruits. And what are those fruits of His vineyard? Those won to Christ Jesus through the preaching of The Gospel. That includes God's promises of His Birthright given through Abraham also.

How did God's Birthright promises continue with His Church under Christ to that new "nation" of Matt.21?

Well, what happenned with nations right after Christ's Resurrection and Ascension to The Father? What areas of the earth first received The Gospel of Jesus Christ on grand scales? It certainly wasn't Jerusalem with the majority of Jews, for they refused Isaiah's report about Christ Jesus. The first nations to receive The Gospel of Jesus Christ were the western nations of Asia Minor and western Europe. Those later became the western Christian nations. And then they continued Gospel Ministry thoughout the world.

Per 1 Chronicles 5, God's Birthright continued through Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh. It's the same Birthright promises God first gave to Abraham when giving him the Promise by Faith. Each time God transferred it, more and more detail was given as to what it was to include. It began with Abraham, then to Isaac, then to Jacob (Israel), then to Jacob's son Joseph, and then to Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh, where it still rests today. If you trace the blessings given to each one of those, you'll discover all what God's Birthright contains. It especially contains God's Promise by Faith to Abraham of The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I'm not going to lay out all what God's Birthright promises contain that cannot be separated from Christ and His Church. But know this. The name 'Israel' is one of them, and it's about those in Christ Jesus wherever they are, of both believing Israelite and believing Gentile. That name Israel has always been associated with God's Salvation from the first, even before the chosen seed became a literal geographical nation called Israel.

So what about the Jews today who are against the idea that Christ's Church is God's Israel? (That's where that contesting over who is Israel originates brethren, regardless of whether our Christian ministers realize it). The unbelieving Jews want Christ's Body to think only those of literal seed and the nation state called Israel is God's true Israel. Some of you partly understand this, citing from Paul in Romans 9 about the idea of spiritual Israel, but I don't think you've well considered the rest of what Paul showed about flesh Israel later in Romans 11.

Even though the majority of God's Birthright promises only continued to Christ's Body, He still reserved a portion of it to the literal seed of Israel, even though the majority of them still refuse Christ Jesus as The Saviour. One of those promises is of becoming a literal nation state again in the holy land in the last days (per Jeremiah 24, and parable of the fig tree per our Lord Jesus in Matt.24, one of the signs near the end of this world). God promised in 1 Kings 11 He would always leave one tribe of Israel in Jerusalem, and He has kept that promise. But that has nothing to do with the rest of His Birthright promises which were taken away from unbelieving Jews, and instead given to a new 'nation' that would bear its fruits (i.e. Christ's Church).

Thus Christ's Church since, is God's Israel since He came to die on the cross and He moved His Vineyard of Israel to another "nation", taking it away from those who were blinded. Oh, and those blind leaders of unbelieving flesh Israel know this, and they want God's Birthright back, even while still refusing our Saviour Jesus Christ. That is why those blind leaders spread the false doctrine that they only are true Israel, and that their nation state called Israel in the holy land today being God's true nation of Israel. It is not, and will not be God's true Israel unto Salvation until Christ Jesus returns there, in Person, and those who believe on Christ Jesus gathered there with Him.

This is a mystery still today, because many of flesh Israel are still blinded by God, especially those devout ultra-orthodox Jews in the holy land today. Paul quoted from the OT prophets in Romans 11 how one day, their blindness would be removed, and they would see. Some of them have already come out of that blindness by accepting Christ Jesus as Messiah. Yet the majority of them still have not, and their leaders are preventing that. Because of their blindness, they cannot see how wanting to build another temple in Jerusalem to start up the Old Covenant worship and sacrifices again will be an abomination against our Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ.

So who is God's Israel today? Christ's Church, His Body of believers, of both believing Israelite and Gentile, wherever you may be. In time, when Christ Jesus returns, that's when God's Birthright promise to Abraham about inheriting the holy land as far as one can see, is going to be fulfilled. That was God's promise that passed through Abraham, to Isaac, to Jacob, to Joseph, and then to Ephraim and Manasseh, and all believers of Christ's Body from the 13 tribes of Israel along with us believing Gentiles. That day is going to be great.

 

[belantos]

This might be a bit long, but those who discipline theirselves in God's Word about this should begin to see it.

All those in Christ Jesus should thoroughly study what Apostle Paul taught in Galatians about those of Faith like Abraham having become "the children of Abraham". Paul was specific that the Promise by Fatih was always first, before the giving of the law through Moses (even 430 years before). Paul even said The Gospel was preached to Abraham (Gal.3). In John 8 our Lord Jesus would even say that Abraham saw His day, and was glad.

So did Abraham know about The Gospel of Jesus Christ unto Salvation?

I say yes...

The post is very long, so let me just answer this bit.

The confusion comes from tradition because for a very long time the gospel was identified with the message about Jesus dying on the cross for the sinners.

But this is not the biblical definition. The gospel (good news) that John the Baptist, Jesus, the disciples, and the apostles ever preached was the good news of the coming Kingdom:

http://www.zworld.com.au/2010/12/19/what-is-the-gospel-has-the-old-way-been-replaced/

The message of the cross was preached in addition to this:

http://www.zworld.com.au/2011/01/04/the-gospel-and-jesus-christ/

 

[Martin W.]

All that is important to understanding the real meaning of God's Church which is the Body of Christ and God's Israel. How God defines His Israel in His Word is what's important, not how men's traditions try to define His Israel.

With all respect veteran you have an ongoing tradition that clouds your thinking.
Your tradition insists you are Israel.
It may be very appealing and gratifying to claim to be Israel.
But is it correct ? Or is it wishful thinking ?

A person must strive to avoid promoting the wrong traditions.

I never for a moment expect you will ever abandon your claim of being Israel. My concern is for anyone who may fall prey to men's traditions.

We must protect the young. I hope you understand my motive. I wish you no ill. I expect we will meet in heaven.

----

Anyone wanting to know more will find it an easy exercise to recheck the Old Testament for evidence that God still (and always has) distinguishes Israel as a distinct and separate nation.

All the unfulfilled OT prophecy refers explicitly to Israel as a distinct nation and distinct people.
Disobedient ? Yes.
Unbelief ? Yes.
But still referred as a nation and a people.
And subject to a unique plan designed by the God of Israel

Anyone who tries to force the idea that Israel is a handful of people in America , has wishful thinking as a guide , not scripture.


The Lord The God of Israel has his own tradition.
He has a people and a nation he calls Israel .
--in history
--at present
--and in the future

All clearly evident in The Old Testament.
All easily determined.


Best wishes as we follow God's traditions.
They are foolproof.

We are not Israel.
We are the church.
We hang on a branch grafted into Israel

Martin
May we never lose our grip on the branch.

 

[tomwebster]

With all respect veteran you have an ongoing tradition that clouds your thinking.
Your tradition insists you are Israel.
It may be very appealing and gratifying to claim to be Israel.
But is it correct ? Or is it wishful thinking ?

A person must strive to avoid promoting the wrong traditions.

I never for a moment expect you will ever abandon your claim of being Israel. My concern is for anyone who may fall prey to men's traditions.

...

mw, It is NOT tradition, it is history. Israel’s migrations can be tracked. Israel is alive and well. Many of the tribesmen of Israel are waking up just like Scripture tells us, "bone unto bone." Someday you might wake up and find that you are one of Israel also, maybe not.

 

[veteran]

e

The post is very long, so let me just answer this bit.

The confusion comes from tradition because for a very long time the gospel was identified with the message about Jesus dying on the cross for the sinners.

But this is not the biblical definition. The gospel (good news) that John the Baptist, Jesus, the disciples, and the apostles ever preached was the good news of the coming Kingdom:

God's Kingdom coming to Jerusalem was dependent upon acceptance of Jesus of Nazareth as God's Promised Saviour come to die on the cross to defeat the devil and death (Hebrews 2:14).

Mark 1:1-4
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make His paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
(KJV)

That Gospel could not manifest without our Lord Jesus' death on the cross, which is why the prophets testified about Christ's crucifixion. Each soul's salvation hinges upon accepting Jesus of Nazarth as The Saviour. Without Christ Jesus there is no salvation. The Jews refused Jesus, and John the Baptist too who was sent to prepare the way.

 

[veteran]

With all respect veteran you have an ongoing tradition that clouds your thinking.
Your tradition insists you are Israel.
It may be very appealing and gratifying to claim to be Israel.
But is it correct ? Or is it wishful thinking ?

A person must strive to avoid promoting the wrong traditions.

I never for a moment expect you will ever abandon your claim of being Israel. My concern is for anyone who may fall prey to men's traditions.

We must protect the young. I hope you understand my motive. I wish you no ill. I expect we will meet in heaven.

No offense taken Martin. But I'm already certain that it will be you that will one day wake up and realize that you've been lied to about God's Israel by the Dispensationalist ideas you've been taught, which actually is a tradition of men that first began in 1800's Great Britain. Dispensationalism tries to separate Christ's Church apart from the concept of God's Israel. Even excellent Christian Bible scholars like E.W. Bullinger accepted that Dispensationalist doctrine in those days.

In Ephesians 2, Apostle Paul did not use the phrase "commonwealth of Israel" as a whim when pointing to how believing Gentiles on Christ had become a part of God's Israel by Faith. Likewise with Paul's teaching in Galatians that all those of Faith are now the children of Abraham. And also, with Paul's teaching in Romans 11 about believing Gentiles being graffed in.

Deeper OT Bible study reveals that our Heavenly Father chose the name Israel to represent His Salvation through His Son before the foundation of this world. Apostle Paul referred to that idea when he spoke of those chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, and that "commonwealth of Israel" idea as applied to Christ's Body, and about the preordaining of Jacob over Esau (Ephesians 1-2; Romans 9; Genesis 25).

One of the main purposes of Dispensationalist separation of Christ's Church apart from the concept of Israel is so to drum up support for the Pre-Tribulational "secret rapture" theory. That originally was about the idea of Israel ONLY applied to unbelieving Jews, with Christ's Church being primarily a Gentile Church. It's so they could say the Gentile Church is raptured out prior to the great tribulation while those of Israel stay to go through the tribulation.

What they were actually seeing in God's Word was how some of the seed of Israel have certain duties to do during the tribulation, and they tried to separate Christ's Body apart from those to support their pre-trib secret rapture theory. But in reality per God's Word like Rev.7, two groups are sealed with God's sealing for the purpose of duty during the tribulation, and one of those groups are strictly Gentiles (Rev.7:9 forward). God's Word reveals WE ALL will go through the great tribulation our Lord Jesus foretold.

Some day you'll begin to understand what I've shown, and also what tomwebster has said about God's Israel. It's very true Biblically, and archaeologically, that the majority of the seed of Israel, being the scattered ten tribes of Israel, were dispersed among the Gentiles and became as Gentiles, and believed The Gospel of Jesus Christ when Christ was preached to them, mainly in the West. Many will eventually discover those make up a huge amount of Christ's Body in the west today.

The minute Dispensationalists begin to admit that history about the scattered ten tribes of Israel losing their heritage while among the Gentiles, it would start tearing down their isolationist ideas of Christ's Church being primarily a Gentile Church. It would destroy their idea about the Gentile Church being raptured while Israelites remain on earth to go through the tribulation.

So of course they are going to refuse that truth about the ten tribes today hidden among Gentiles as Gentiles. If they admitted it they would confirm what God's Word actually says about Christ moving His Vineyard of Israel to another nation that would bear its fruits. In Isaiah 5 God said the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) is His vineyard, and Judah His pleasant plant.

 

[Martin W.]

mw, It is NOT tradition, it is history. Israel’s migrations can be tracked. Israel is alive and well. Many of the tribesmen of Israel are waking up just like Scripture tells us, "bone unto bone." Someday you might wake up and find that you are one of Israel also, maybe not.

Tom

I would be absolutely thrilled if I was to find I am a descendant of Israel.
But I would require document-able genealogy to make that claim.
Genealogy which I feel does not exist in modern day.
If I do not have evidence , all that remains is wishful thinking and imaginations.
I have never confused wishful thinking and imaginations with factual evidence.
It is a weakness I have.

Forget about that for a minute Tom. I understand your position (and always have) .

But here is my point Tom , I would encourage you to clearly consider that the country in the middle east , and her people , is the Israel spoken of in the Old Testament future events (unfulfilled prophecy). It is the literal nation.

Do so at your own option , it really doesn't matter to me one way or the other. I am trying to save you some future angst. It is a weakness I have.

Thank you and Best wishes as you strive for things Israel
A. Martin W.

 

[Martin W.]

mw, It is NOT tradition, it is history. Israel’s migrations can be tracked. Israel is alive and well. Many of the tribesmen of Israel are waking up just like Scripture tells us, "bone unto bone." Someday you might wake up and find that you are one of Israel also, maybe not.

Tom , its me again , just another quick thought.

I am busy , and I expect you are too , but rather than wake up one day and find out ...... " I am Israel" (your words)" .... I would appreciate a bit of explanation in your own words , as you have time .

I am not looking for a thousand links or a bunch of copy and paste. I feel most of that type of information is an attempt to indoctrinate folks to a pre-conceived notion smothered under a ton of words.

I can smell that stuff a mile away.

A few words from you , even an incomplete explanation , (in your own words) carries much more convincing weight for me. If you have information that may show the identity of modern (lost) tribe members amongst us , then I am all ears.

Again , when you have time.
And in your own words please.

I look forward
A. Martin W.

 

[veteran]

Martin, why should Tom show you anything about this matter, since you've so eloquently shown you don't intend to believe it anyway?

This matter isn't just about the scattered ten tribes of Israel anyway. It's about all of Christ's Body, His Church, which includes many believing Gentiles also, and even some of the "house of Judah" that began calling themselves Jews.

I have not discovered many on the Pre-trib "secret rapture" theory that understand how God fulfilled the prophecy that Ephraim would become "a multitude of nations" (Gen.48), and that Jacob would become "a nation" and "a company of nations" (Gen.35). It's because of their preachers trying to separate God's Israel from Christ's Church just to try and give support for their false Dispensationalist secret rapture theory.

 

[Martin W.]

name='veteran' timestamp='1295200352' post='97533']
Martin, why should Tom show you anything about this matter, since you've so eloquently shown you don't intend to believe it anyway?

I tend to believe something once I have seen evidence or convincing proof. It is a weakness I have.

This matter isn't just about the scattered ten tribes of Israel anyway. It's about all of Christ's Body, His Church, which includes many believing Gentiles also, and even some of the "house of Judah" that began calling themselves Jews.

Are you saying the church is the 12 tribes. Are you saying the church and Israel are one ? Do you beleive there is a nation and a people in the middle east called Israel ? Do you feel there are end time prophecies about this nation and people. If so , are you saying there are 2 Israels ?

I have not discovered many on the Pre-trib "secret rapture" theory that understand how God fulfilled the prophecy that Ephraim would become "a multitude of nations" (Gen.48), and that Jacob would become "a nation" and "a company of nations" (Gen.35). It's because of their preachers trying to separate God's Israel from Christ's Church just to try and give support for their false Dispensationalist secret rapture theory

.
Why are you dragging rapture into this ? Smokescreen? I do not understand.

 

[australia]

...are you saying there are 2 Israels ?

Eze 37:21-22 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

See that? Children and land; two Israels.

The above verses are future prophesy, thus today, the children of Israel are not confined to the land of Israel.

 

[Martin W.]

Eze 37:21-22 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

See that? Children and land; two Israels.

The above verses are future prophesy, thus today, the children of Israel are not confined to the land of Israel.

You have jumped too far ahead in prophecy australia.
There is a future time when:
[sup]24[/sup] “‘My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd."

--In the intern there is much (unfulfilled) prophecy yet to happen to the nation of Israel.
--she has largely been re-gathered , a bit more re-gathering still taking place today.
--then comes some more unfulfilled prophecy (for the Nation )
--then the Gog and Magog nasty stuff
--then all of us (Israel and Christians) are under one king (Jesus)(servant David)


In your scenario all of us (Christians) would have to move to Israel right now (all one billion of us)

To chronicle prophecy is not always easy.
Later this year , some major help is on the way
It becomes much easier to spot where we are in future events.

till then , best wishes
Arnie Martin W.

 

[veteran]

I tend to believe something once I have seen evidence or convincing proof. It is a weakness I have.

Honestly, it might be a question of just what 'kind' of evidence you think you require. I know many have been blinded by The LORD with this matter and about the endtime events. The reason for that blindness is between the person and our Lord Jesus.

Are you saying the church is the 12 tribes. Are you saying the church and Israel are one ? Do you beleive there is a nation and a people in the middle east called Israel ? Do you feel there are end time prophecies about this nation and people. If so , are you saying there are 2 Israels ?

1 Cor 10:1-5
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
(KJV)

Have you not read Galatians 3 where Apostle Paul says those of Faith like Abraham have now become "the children of Abraham"? What about Romans 9 where Paul taught those of The Promise by Faith are counted as Israel?

God's Salvation Promise was first given through Abraham (Gen.14-17). God gave Israel much prophecy about The Saviour and His Salvation. Many of the seed refused, but not all Israel refused. And Who is That Saviour? Jesus Christ.

Did you not know that Promise by Faith is what Abraham was first given, and that it continued through Isaac, then to Jacob, then to Joseph and his two sons Ephraim and Manasseh? That's the main point of what God's "birthright" is about, that Promise of Salvation by Faith that Abraham first believed, which Paul links with our Faith on The Saviour Jesus Christ in the Books of Galatians and Romans.

Per 1 Chronicles 5, God's "birthright" went to Joseph's sons Ephraim and Manasseh, which includes that Promise by Faith to Abraham. That "birthright" has never been transferred again anywhere in God's Word, so it means it stays with Ephraim and Manasseh all the way to Christ's return.

Per 1 Kings 11 through 2 Kings 17, Ephraim became the head over the ten tribed "house of Israel". And God scattered the ten tribes out of the holy land captive to Assyria and the land of the Medes. They made up the majority of the seed of Israel. And per Ezekiel they were to be further scattered through the countries (nations). Australia showed the Ezekiel 37 prophecy where God said He's going to gather those ten tribes back with the "house of Judah" to the holy land and they would no more be two separate nations. That Ezekiel 37 prophecy is hard-linked to Christ's second coming and His reign as KING on the earth..

That Promise by Faith on The Saviour is what God's "birthright" is about. So where has it manifested? In the Christian West. And if that "birthright" is Ephraim and Manasseh's, where would that show they wound up at? In the Christian West with those nations that first received The Gospel on grand scales. And that's definitely about Christ's Church, with many believing Gentiles with them, and in all nations.

Why are you dragging rapture into this ? Smokescreen? I do not understand.

The pre-trib "secret rapture" began in 1800's Britain with man's Dispensationalist ideas that Israel is only about the Jews who refused our Lord Jesus. They don't recognize the prophecy about Ephraim becoming "a multitude of nations" as having anything to do with God's Promise by Faith on The Saviour, first given with His birthright through Abraham. They have a difficult time even with what Paul taught in Gal.3 about Faith on Christ Jesus lined back to Abraham's Faith.

Why? It's because they want to keep God's concept of Israel separate from His Church under His Son Jesus Christ. Why? So they can teach that rapture doctrine with the idea that Israel is left-behind to go through the tribulation, and they don't. Many Dispensationalists will admit Paul's teaching in Romans 9 about spiritual Israel, but still separate that spiritual Israel apart from the literal seed believers by saying they aren't even Israel anymore, quoting Paul's declaration of neither Jew nor Gentile...

The Biblical evidence though, is that God's Israel has always been His true Church linked to His Promise on The Saviour by Faith first given through Abraham. And that Church has continued all the way into the New Covenant time when Jesus came to die on the cross and thereafter. That is God's true Israel, and always has been since He gave Jacob the new name of Israel to represent the Promise of Christ's Salvation.

 

[tomwebster]

veteran,
I think you need to be careful not to throw all of Dispensational truth out because you do not agree with a part of it.

 

[timf]

Israel and the Church and Dispensationalism

Dispensationalism comes in many flavors such that it is almost certain to generate an argument since is is so variously defined. The word comes from the Greek root OIKOS (house) and we get the word economy from it. A better picture is formed from an understanding of the work of the chief steward in a household. His job was to dispense food and other resources to the slaves and assign their work. Since there were no corporations almost all business was conducted as an extension of a household.

Paul was given a dispensation of grace from God for the gentiles.

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Paul was hopeful that the grace of God and the gifts of the Spirit would provoke his fellow Jews to faith.

Romans 11:11-14 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

The offer of the Kingdom to the nation of Israel was a legitimate offer. It is similar to the offer of salvation to the entire world. The offer is valid however, because of the sinfulness of our hearts no one would accept the offer unless God pours out His grace. Buried in this are a couple of thousand years worth of argument about free will versus determinism.

To understand the situation regarding the nation of Israel, one has to allow for the consideration of "potentiality". Between the angels announcement to the shepherds and the destruction of the temple 70 years latter was a legitimate opportunity (potential) for the nation of Israel to receive her King. Regardless of when in the life of Jesus, Israel had received her King, all of scripture would still have been fulfilled. This is why the immanent return of Jesus was so much hoped for and expected.

There could have been a scenario where the nation accepted Jesus at His birth. When He started to rule, Rome probably would have sent in an army to put Him to death and He would have been raised on the third day.

There could have been a scenario where the nation of Israel became incensed that God had begun to save gentiles and Jesus could have returned to rule from Jerusalem.

After two thousand years of Israel being a disappointment to God, we have two thousand years of the gentile church being not much better.

 

[veteran]

veteran,
I think you need to be careful not to throw all of Dispensational truth out because you do not agree with a part of it.

I'm not throwing all the ideas of dispensation away, because the real meaning per the Greek of the KJV word dispensation Paul used is about an administration in the one Gospel to the Gentiles. It's still the same Promise by Faith first given through Abraham.

There is no such thing as a Gentile only Church as a separate part of Christ's Body. This is why Paul shows us in Galatians and Romans that God's Promise by Faith through Abraham is also what was preached to the Gentiles.

Per Acts 9 Apostle Paul was chosen to preach The Gospel to Gentiles, to kings, and to the children of Israel. When he preached The Gospel he was preaching to all three groups, not just the Gentiles only. That is confirmed in Paul's journeys in the Book of Acts especially.

But man's tradition instead wants to treat Paul's administration ("dispensation") of The Gospel only to Gentiles, when that's not true per God's Word. Paul's MAIN stewardship, or administration in The Gospel was to Gentiles, but not to them only.

How that is so is because Paul when he went to the Gentiles, the scattered ten tribes of Israel were among them, along with scattered remnants of Judah that also were among them. Only a small remnant of Judah went back to Jerusalem after the Babylon captivity. The majority of Judah captive in Babylon were further scattered through the countries like the ten lost tribes were (Ezek.3-6 prophecy).

The signs of The Gospel reveals that God's Promise to Abraham of Salvation through His Saviour (Jesus Christ) by Faith continued with the seed of Israel among the Gentiles. It just did not continue with the unbelieving Jews (house of Judah), especially in Jerusalem. Man's tradition instead teaches the falsehood that only Jews of the house of Judah are the seed of Promise while throwing away the majority of the seed of Israel (ten tribed house of Israel) that was scattered among the Gentiles.

And per Paul in Romans 11, unbelieving Israel (of both houses) is cut off as along as they remain in unbelief. But God is able to graff them in again if they too believe. In that same Romans 11 chapter, Paul shows how a believing remnant of Israel continued in that Promise, and he called them the remnant according to the election of grace. That remnant of the seed is about scattered Israel among the Gentiles.

 

[tomwebster]

I'm not throwing all the ideas of dispensation away, because the real meaning per the Greek of the KJV word dispensation Paul used is about an administration in the one Gospel to the Gentiles. It's still the same Promise by Faith first given through Abraham.

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Dispensational truth is far more than the dispensation of grace but this is not the place to discuss it.

 

[veteran]

Once again, treating all the seed of Israel as unbelieving Jews and as the nation of Israel is gross error.

The false prophets can mock the idea in God's Word of how He separated the old kingdom of Israel into two separate houses and nations, but they only show their Biblical ignorance.


Ezek 37:16-22
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:

Judah and the children of Israel his companions is one stick. That's about the "house of Judah" (1 Kings 12:20-21). The house of David, Judah, Benjamin, Levi, and remnants of the other tribes that lived in the lands of Judea became that "house of Judah" with a king after David's lineage at Jerusalem. These began to call theirselves Jews, which comes from the name of the tribe Judah.

Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions, is the other stick. This is the "house of Israel", the majority of Israelites of the northern ten tribes. God made one of the tribe of Ephraim king over them at Samaria in the north. Ephraim was Joseph's younger son that received the birthright blessing from Jacob (Gen.48). These never went by the title of Jews. The majority of these lost knowledge of their heritage of Israel. They became as Gentiles among the Gentiles. And these made up the MAJORITY of the seed of the Woman Israel.


17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

Now how much intelligence does one need to understand God is showing how He split Israel into two separate kingdoms with the two separate sticks to represent that? The separate titles of "house of Judah" and "house of Israel" is written throughout the OT prophets, so how much reading does it take to understand these two sticks of Israel were separate parts of Israel?


18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

If our Heavenly Father didn't want His people to know this, He would not have made it so clear. He reveals someday He's going to join both houses back together again.


21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
(KJV)

God gives a specific timing for that. It involves the "one king" over them all back in the lands of Promise in the middleast. That "one king" is our Lord Jesus Christ, for Jerusalem has had no king of the house of David since the Babylon captivity in Jeremiah's days. That was even a long time before our Lord Jesus' first coming when there was a king of David's house at Jerusalem. The last one was king Zedekiah in Jerusalem. Even today there is no king of David's house at Jerusalem.

Thus God's Israel is still "two nations" today, the two sticks (houses) are still apart. The two sticks will only be joined into one in the holy land with a King of David's house (further down in Ezek.37). That King will be our Lord Jesus Christ, descended of king David of Judah.

God's Promised Salvation by Faith on The Saviour (Jesus Christ) first given through Abraham is very much about this future joining of the two sticks of Israel. That Promise also went to the "house of Israel" scattered among the Gentiles, with Ephraim still as head over the ten tribes. It was NOT they who were provoked to jealousy by that preaching of The Gospel, because the ten tribed house of Israel stick was already "among the heathen" (put for Gentiles) when God's Promise of The Gospel was preached among the Gentiles.

The more accurate picture of Paul's dispensation is The Gospel going to both the Gentiles and the children of Israel (under Ephraim as head over the ten tribes) all at the same time. And The Gospel also went to their kings, just as our Lord Jesus declared who Paul was chosen to preach to per Acts 9.

God promised David there would never fail a man to sit upon his throne on earth, unto all generations. That promise was repeated in God's OT prophets, including by Jeremiah when Judah's reign in Jerusalem ended (Jer.33). Genesis 49:10 reveals Judah would keep the royal sceptre on earth all the way up to Christ's return (Shiloh). So who does one think our Lord Jesus meant about Paul's preaching The Gospel to the kings also? What kings received The Gospel of Jesus Christ, and where? It certainly wasn't any king of the Jews in Jerusalem.

 

[tomwebster]

Once again, treating all the seed of Israel as unbelieving Jews and as the nation of Israel is gross error.

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Who is this post responding too?

 

[veteran]

Who is this post responding too?

It's a general contention against those who despise the truth in God's Word about the two houses of Israel. It's a continuation of proof from what Australia posted from Ezek.37. I don't suspect that contention includes you Tom, since in an earlier post you've already shown you know about that from God's Word.

As for how today's Dispensationalists are really getting farther away from Paul's usage of the term, see teachings by C.R. Stam.