GracePeace
Well-Known Member
That may be discussed on an appropriate thread.
Here is one I authored.
Please address @theefaith on that as they were the one who raised it.
Bible alone
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Here is one I authored.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
The Apostle Paul says you are mistaken and salvation is indeed by faith “alone” (ie. apart from works).
Ephesians 2:1-10
[NKJV] And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
So quit your boasting, God is unimpressed with your “filthy rags” (Isaiah 64:6). That’s why Jesus had to take care of things Himself. (John 6:37-44)
atpollard
Well-Known Member
GracePeace
Well-Known Member
It will be up to them to decide whether that is the discussion they want to have here--or they may direct you to a more appropriate thread. Hope your discussion with them goes well (glorifies God). Thanks for understanding.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Part 1:
- [Deu 8:3 NKJV] 3 "So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers know, that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the LORD
- [Mat 4:4 NKJV] 4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.' "
- [Luk 4:4 NKJV] 4 But Jesus answered him, saying, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.' "
Part 2
- [Jhn 1:1-5 NKJV] 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
- [Jhn 1:14 NKJV] 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
Part 3
- [Mat 23:8-12 NKJV] 8 "But you, do not be called 'Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. 9 "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 "And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. 11 "But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 "And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
- [Jhn 6:45 NKJV] 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
- [2Ti 3:16-17 NKJV] 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
We live or die by every WORD OF GOD. Jesus is the WORD OF GOD. All SCRIPTURE is God-breathed that we might read the WORD OF GOD and live and be complete.
God is not found in human traditions.
God is not found in fallible men claiming to speak for Him.
God is not found in councils of men claiming titles and honors that God Himself forbid Christians to claim.
God is found in His perfect scripture and in the Holy Spirit dwelling in the heart of His people and in the LIVING WORD ... Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. We join Luther in praying that one day the eyes of the Catholic Church will be opened and it will return to its first love. Until then, we wait for you in the arms of our Jesus and the words of His apostles ... the Holy Bible.
Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone ... not authority of tradition).
Sola Fide (Faith Alone ... not salvation by works)
Sola Gratia (Grace Alone ... not salvation based on our merit)
Solus Christus (Christ Alone ... not salvation based on the sacraments)
Soli Deo Gloria (All Glory to God Alone ... not a shared glory with men)
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
The John quote is evidence supporting my point. I don't think Jesus means to say that one must be born in two different ways, i.e. both water and spirit. Rather, his point assumes everyone is already born of water, but only those also born of spirit will enter the kingdom of God.
It was Nicodemus who first raised the issue of a mother's womb. And so Jesus builds on that image granting that a "man is born of water", which is a reference to the birthing process when a baby emerges from the mother's womb. The liquid that accompanies the birth looks like water, which seems to be the reason why the amniotic sac is commonly called "the bag of waters."
Granting that human beings are born of water, Jesus says, one must also be born of spirit in order to see the kingdom of God. In this context, Jesus is explaining to Nicodemus why he was able to recognize that God himself was teaching the people through his son Jesus Christ. Only those "born of spirit" can understand the significance of what they saw. And this ability to see the kingdom of God is miracle in the heart of those whom God is saving. Not only did God open the eyes of Nicodemus so that he might see the kingdom of God, but God promises that Nicodemus will enter the kingdom of God, according to Jesus.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Matthew is quoting the prophet Jeremiah, specifically Jeremiah 31:15. In that context the Lord is bringing a word of encouragement and comfort, telling Israel through Jeremiah that the exiles will return to the land and there God will bless them. In that context, the Lord poetically refers to those living in Babylon as "Rachel's children". These folks are literally and physically Rachel's descendants. Remember Rachel had two sons, Joseph and Benjamin. The families related to these two men were in exile in Babylon.
Rachel is not alive during that time, so she isn't literally crying. The Lord includes Rachel in his skit because if Rachel were alive, she would be crying since she defined her life and significance according to her ability to have children. She was in a competition with her sister Leah over how many children they provided to Jacob. As it turned out, Rachel was only able to have two children and she died during childbirth when Benjamin was born. If she were alive to see what became of her children, she would be very sad and disappointed. But God is very encouraging when he says to her,
Jeremiah 31:
16 Thus says the Lord,
“Restrain your voice from weeping
And your eyes from tears;
For your work will be rewarded,” declares the Lord,
“And they will return from the land of the enemy.
17 “There is hope for your future,” declares the Lord,
“And your children will return to their own territory.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Here you raise two issues: the councils and the scriptures. I am not impressed with the council at Nicaea because the purpose of the council was NOT to answer the question, "what does the Bible teach?" No, the purpose of the council was to innovate a new state religion.
With regard to the scriptures, you know by experience my love of the scriptures and why I remind everyone what Jesus and the apostles have taught. I maintain that each of Jesus disciples has a personal relationship with him, loves him, and seeks to learn from him, follow him, live like he did, and obey him in all ways. I see myself only as a guide. There is nothing original in me. My wish is that everyone who names the name of Jesus and loves the Lord, will increase in knowledge of him through the study of his word.
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
Wrong. The purpose of the Council of Nicae was to address the Arian heresy. There is no mention of a "state religion" in any of its canons, and no mention of Constantine.
Anybody who professes to be a Christian and rejects the Nicene Creed just doesn't make sense.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
The Nicene Creed was the work product of a gathering of Bishops. Who called the gathering? Why did he call the gathering? What was HIS goal? Was the nature of the Son the only item on the agenda? What else did they decide? Why the need for an ecumenical council? Was the concept of a "unified Catholic Church" a Christian idea or a political idea? Did every bishop agree with the council or did some Bishops remain in disagreement even after they returned home? Did the council base their conclusions on the Bible alone or other source material? What philosophical assumptions informed their conclusions?
Did Jesus ever enforce his teaching at the edge of a sword? What other religion does this?
it’s all good
Everyone is welcome to make his heart felt beliefs known
Eph 2 refers to redemption not justification or salvation
the word of God is not limited to the “Bible alone” tradition is also the word of God or divine revelation and scripture can also be tradition
- 2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Matt 3:2 the word of the Lord came to John
By what scripture did it come ?
it says by water and the spirit
and they go to the river and what do they do??? Baptize
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
Yes, and superintended by the Holy Spirit.
Constantine collaborated with the Pope. It is IMPOSSIBLE to convene an ecumenical council without the Pope.
The Arian heresy was wrecking havoc and division in the known world. It was both a civil and religious matter. Constantine was an Arian, so why would he convene a council that would refute his beliefs? He was eventually baptized on his death bed.
No.
Because the Arian heresy was widespread.
The Catholic Church with 23 rites remains doctrinally unified to this day.
There were some stubborn schismatics, like the Novaitionists.
"Bible alone" theology did not exist until the 16th century. What part of the Nicene Creed contradicts scripture???
That the Church is One, Holy, Catholic (universal) and Apostolic. Those are marks of God, not assumptions.
Forced conversions have never been accepted as valid by the Church. The Protestant Inquisition is another story.
Context of Jn 3:5 “born again”
John1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)
John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)(His disciples believed because the ever Virgin mother of God interceded Jn 2:11)
John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)
John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism / water)
John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.
Born again means Baptismal regeneration!
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
While in a discussion about the councils of the Church, a Protestant pointed out that the Council of Nicaea was not a Catholic Council but a general council of Christians who believe that Jesus is God. His main argument for his position was that the pope was not in attendance to the council and has no hand in organizing and facilitating in the proceedings of the said council. For those who are not familiar with the council of Nicaea, the council of Nicaea was a dogmatic council to address the growing heresy of Arius who is teaching that Jesus Christ is not God but is just an ordinary human being, the one who championed the teaching that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully human is St. Athanasius.
Is it true that the pope has nothing to do with this great Christian council as what Protestants generally alleges? Is it true that this is not a Catholic council but a general Christian council to address a doctrinal issue? One thing what enemies of the faith wants people to believe is that the Catholic Church has nothing to do with one of the fundamental beliefs of Christians. Consider the following, if the Council of Nicaea is a Catholic council, headed by the Pope and the council teaches us that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully human, a doctrine that is believed by Protestants, therefore they are blindly submitting to the authority of the Church.
They [Protestants] in practice and in teaching have to distance the Catholic Church from fundamental Christians beliefs because it is a form of hypocrisy to oppose the Catholic Church yet believes the teachings that the Church promulgated. It is historically proven that the Pope facilitated the council through his representatives. Professional historical Dr. Warren Carroll said in his book;
During this time Pope Silvester was already in the last phase of his life, his advanced age makes it physically impossible for him to travel to Nicaea [Now Turkey] from Rome, therefore he sent his representatives to organize the council and the facilitate the debates and discussions about the doctrine in trial. The Pope was really in control of the council through his representatives, the doctrine that Jesus Christ is fully God and Fully human was approved by Pope Silvester and Arius and his cohorts were excommunicated and deposed of their position.
To say that the Pope has nothing to do with the Council of Nicaea is lie which is often been repeated by enemies of the faith to discredit the authority of the Catholic Church in matters of faith and morals.
The Council Of Nicaea And The Pope
Is it true that the pope has nothing to do with this great Christian council as what Protestants generally alleges? Is it true that this is not a Catholic council but a general Christian council to address a doctrinal issue? One thing what enemies of the faith wants people to believe is that the Catholic Church has nothing to do with one of the fundamental beliefs of Christians. Consider the following, if the Council of Nicaea is a Catholic council, headed by the Pope and the council teaches us that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully human, a doctrine that is believed by Protestants, therefore they are blindly submitting to the authority of the Church.
They [Protestants] in practice and in teaching have to distance the Catholic Church from fundamental Christians beliefs because it is a form of hypocrisy to oppose the Catholic Church yet believes the teachings that the Church promulgated. It is historically proven that the Pope facilitated the council through his representatives. Professional historical Dr. Warren Carroll said in his book;
The recommendation for a general or ecumenical council. . .had probably already been made to Constantine by Ossius [aka Hosius], and most probably to Pope Silvester as well. . .Ossius presided over its deliberations; he probably, and two priests of Rome certainly, came as representative of the Pope.
Dr. Warren Carroll, The Building of Christendom, Christendom College Press, 1987,11During this time Pope Silvester was already in the last phase of his life, his advanced age makes it physically impossible for him to travel to Nicaea [Now Turkey] from Rome, therefore he sent his representatives to organize the council and the facilitate the debates and discussions about the doctrine in trial. The Pope was really in control of the council through his representatives, the doctrine that Jesus Christ is fully God and Fully human was approved by Pope Silvester and Arius and his cohorts were excommunicated and deposed of their position.
To say that the Pope has nothing to do with the Council of Nicaea is lie which is often been repeated by enemies of the faith to discredit the authority of the Catholic Church in matters of faith and morals.
The Council Of Nicaea And The Pope
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Going back to chapter one is too far. By inserting the baptismal idea from chapter one into chapter 3, this misrepresents what Jesus was saying. I already pointed out the fact that Nicodemus mentions the womb of his mother in the immediate context. This is what Jesus meant by being born of water.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
One can not claim that the council was superintended by the Holy Spirit.
I'm not defending the teaching of Arius, but his teaching was not declared a Heresy until AFTER the council.
False. Jesus and the Apostles always argued from scripture, which they considered to be the final word on doctrine. When someone called Jesus a "good teacher", Jesus was quick to point out that the only good teacher is the Father. Mark 10:17-18
All of it.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Ephesians 2:8
- [ASV] 8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God;
- [CSB] 8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift --
- [DBY] 8 For ye are saved by grace, through faith; and this not of yourselves; it is God's gift:
- [ESV] 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
- [KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
- [NASB] 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this [is] not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God;
- [NET] 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;
- [NIV] 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
- [NKJV] 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God,
- [NLT] 8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God.
- [RSV] 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God--
- [WEB] 8 For by grace are ye saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
- [YLT] 8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,
Respectfully, Ephesians 2 and I disagree. It is ALL ABOUT SALVATION and who does the saving and how He saves us and why God saves.
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