Church Bashing

[stunnedbygrace]

See, @stunnedbygrace, my friend and sister in Christ whom I respect and even, y'know, like, I really am a heretic because I am forced to deny the logical premise of Biblical Inerrancy.

Tsk. The Holy Spirit can teach you even IF a translator could have picked a better word in English in a place or two. This is because the themes and truths are repeated over and over again and He shows them to you. Yes, they are hidden. But they’re hidden in plain sight to those He gives to understand the parables.

The example you give is two different accounts told from maybe two different perspectives of time. I don’t even think THAT was a mistake but rather a clue from God for dividing elsewhere. There are some clues made very easy, so easy a child could see them, including the never answer/always answer clue in Proverbs where they are put together one after the other very plainly instead of being in totally different places. It almost doesn’t even matter if you understand the proverb (I said almost) but that you begin to see the same thing in other places in scripture and understand, aha…He hides things for us to find…! He even SAYS so elsewhere in the same book! He says, It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

few people actually change their minds because there are real tensions in the text.

And you aren’t looking for them to change their mind. Each of them is arguing that a scripture is true, so they are right. You are pointing out that (to use my friends words) their cake is only half baked.

To also use my friends words, it’s like a man walking on a tightrope with one of those long poles. He has to walk in the middle of the tension or he will fall off. Equal weight has to be on each end of the pole.

Or to use another way my friend has explained it, there are ditches on BOTH sides of a road it is possible to fall into.

 

[marks]

would mean they HAVE eternal life

Would mean they exist forever, but eternal life is to know God. Eternal life is not a word to specify eternal existance, it specifies relationship with God.

John 17, Jesus tells us what eternal life is.

Much love!

 

[marks]

They don't mystify me at all.

I'm afraid I've failed to make my point.

You're point being?

Much love!

 

[BarneyFife]

Eternal life is not a work to specify eternal existance, it specifies relationship with God.

Unless we're defending eternal security.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

@stunnedbygrace....without saying a whole lot of words, please watch this presentation...thanks.
vOipjP-8q6Y

I can do your second request after I get ready to go. Your first request will be impossible for me. Ask anyone and they will tell you!

 

[charity]

I've heard enough generalized church bashing to last the rest of my life.

God tells us that if we create division in the body of Christ, be warned, if you destroy God's temple, He will destroy you.

Jesus said, Upon this rock I will build My church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

But how many have I heard declare, "Western Christianity is a failure", "the church has become corrupt", on and on it goes.

Well, I have a couple of responses. First of which, if this is your experience, find a new church to attend! Seek until you find faithful believers. They are there. God will lead you to them.

Secondly, how in the world do you know what my church is like? Simple answer. You don't. So why make out like it's all so rotten? Does that make you feel better to sit over all of Christendom in judgment? Think about it.

And thirdly, who are you helping in telling everyone there isn't any good church anywhere? Why not be good church?

OK, I could go on, but, rant over.

Much love!

'That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you,
that ye also may have fellowship with us:
and truly our fellowship is with the Father,
and with His Son Jesus Christ.'
(1Jn 1:3)

Hello @marks

Yes, the quality of the fellowship within any assembly, regardless of it's denomination, is only as good as it's individual members make it.

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Lambano]

Tsk. The Holy Spirit can teach you even IF a translator could have picked a better word in English in a place or two.

The Spirit had better teach me (and us). I'm counting on it.

Since we're bashing harmful doctrines, I'm bashing the very process that generated those doctrines. To use your yeast infection metaphor, this leaven (combined with the leaven of a hermeneutic that uses literalism when understanding other rhetorical modes would be more appropriate), this leaven has infected most of the Evangelical wing of the US churches. Yet our left-wing drifts because they have abandoned the very moorings of scripture that anchor it back to Jesus himself. and the final state is worse than the first.

39 You examine the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is those very Scriptures that testify about Me; 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

When we got around to arguing how many resurrections there will be, I realized I can't play this game anymore. I can't take the cognitive dissonance that's required. If some of my brothers and sisters disfellowship me for that, so be it.

Brothers and sisters, you may continue.

 

[David H.]

What if there really are contradictions?

Matthew says Judas Iscariot hanged himself (Matthew 27:5), while Dr. Luke rather graphically says he splattered his guts out after a fall (Acts 1:15-20). The inerrantist logical premise requires us to invent something that's not in the text, like he was hanging himself from a really tall oak tree and the rope broke ... For all we know, the real story is that Simon Zelotes slit Judas's throat in some Jerusalem back alley. Zealots know how to handle traitors.

See, @stunnedbygrace, my friend and sister in Christ whom I respect and even, y'know, like, I really am a heretic because I am forced to deny the logical premise of Biblical Inerrancy. While these back-and-forth volleys of Scripture may be an enjoyable and informative learning exercise for the mind and the soul, few people actually change their minds because there are real tensions in the text. And so, faithful men and women still debate the tension between God's sovereignty and Man's responsibility 411 years after the Articles of Remonstrance were published. People who study the Bible seriously recognize these tensions really exist and understand that life is about making important decisions with insufficient data and accepting the consequences.

When God healed me, I saw that Jesus revealed a loving and merciful, yet just, God. This is my basic premise. It requires that I prioritize those texts that reveal God's love and mercy. Don't look at me like that; we all do it, we all have our priorities, our mental images and mental models of God. We're all idolators. My understanding of God is necessarily limited, and I know I'm going to be wrong somewhere. I cannot have certainty, so I must have Faith. Faith requires that I trust God to dispose of the unsaved in a just, yet merciful manner. I accept the harsh words and imagery without taking it completely literally. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, and I must accept the consequences when I stand before Jesus myself in the Judgment. It's the only way I found that I could live with myself.

Signed,
Lambano the Heretic, and may God have mercy on his soul.

Tsk. The Holy Spirit can teach you even IF a translator could have picked a better word in English in a place or two. This is because the themes and truths are repeated over and over again and He shows them to you. Yes, they are hidden. But they’re hidden in plain sight to those He gives to understand the parables.

The example you give is two different accounts told from maybe two different perspectives of time. I don’t even think THAT was a mistake but rather a clue from God for dividing elsewhere. There are some clues made very easy, so easy a child could see them, including the never answer/always answer clue in Proverbs where they are put together one after the other very plainly instead of being in totally different places. It almost doesn’t even matter if you understand the proverb (I said almost) but that you begin to see the same thing in other places in scripture and understand, aha…He hides things for us to find…! He even SAYS so elsewhere in the same book! He says, It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings.

The "Apparent" contradictions are there in scripture for a reason, and that is to point us to fellowship, rather than Nicolaitanism (Ruling over the Laity) which Jesus hates. Mankind will follow mankind until they learn to totally rely on God. Mankind presents the doctrines of men for other men to follow; the contradictions draw question to this; thus, you have a continual swinging to and fro between the teachings of men. (Read Ephesians 4:11-16) The Point of this being that we need to reach the point of saying "Lord thou Knowest" as Ezekiel did when posed the question can these dry Bones live (Ezekiel 37) instead of answering "yes" or "no". It is a point of understanding that we do not know the mysteries of God, unless he reveals them to us.

So for example, we have a bunch of scriptures that support eternal security and a whole bunch of contradictory verses that support conditional security, and both sides will quote them and argue them all day, and you will get tossed to and fro by these arguments. But what if God intended both views for the new born believer that by walking through the valley of doubt of our security we may come to know that blessed assurance of our salvation from the one that has purchased us. That we may know we are his not merely doctrinally but relationally, and that when this happens we will Know that we are His treasured possession. (Malachi 3:17)

God Bless

 

[Lambano]

Have you heard people using the word "Hell" as a swear word? Next time just ask the person who uses it "Is Hell a place of eternal torment?" and see what he says.

The Hell you say!

 

[marks]

Not sure how to approach this but consider these texts you quoted...'The one who has died is freed from sin'.....'Reckon yourself therefore dead unto sin and alive unto God'.....understand the difference between being dead and reckoning yourself dead.
Now if we look at 'dead' in the way you categorise it, we end up with a hotch-potch.

No, we end up with consistency.

My definition of life and death holds true in every case.

Let me ask you this . . . Is God telling you to lie to yourself so that you will be self-deceived? Reckon yourself dead but you are not?

This is important to understand I think.

Romans 6:6 LITV
6) knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be nullified, so that we no longer serve sin.

Was our old man in fact crucified with Him?

The body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is life because of righteousness. That should have it's own thread.

Much love!

 

[marks]

11) Third, why is it so critical?

We're just talking.

Myself, I'm interested in absolutely everything in the Bible.

Much love!

 

[Lambano]

And you aren’t looking for them to change their mind. Each of them is arguing that a scripture is true, so they are right. You are pointing out that (to use my friends words) their cake is only half baked.

To also use my friends words, it’s like a man walking on a tightrope with one of those long poles. He has to walk in the middle of the tension or he will fall off. Equal weight has to be on each end of the pole.

Or to use another way my friend has explained it, there are ditches on BOTH sides of a road it is possible to fall into.

All right, fair enough. Yet believing two contradictory premises is basically the definition of "Cognitive Dissonance". So what then is the purpose of this arguing if it's not to persuade those who hold the contradictory view? The exploration may be helpful to reveal additional truths that you didn't see before, you may even be persuaded in that the other position was correct all along, but in the end, you're still stuck with cognitive dissonance. And to do what? Display our exegetical skills? To demonstrate our fidelity to a book that only points us to the One in who we should trust?

39 You examine the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is those very Scriptures that testify about Me; 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

Cognitive dissonance is a tool used by interrogators to destabilize the subject and make them more pliable for whatever purposes the interrogators intend. Usually for evil.

 

[marks]

9) First, the beast, it's image and its mark....and the meaning of it location needs to be identified.

I just take is as I read it. A mark on your right hand or forehead associated with worship of the beast and his image.

I know a lot of people think its not really a mark, and its not really on your right hand or forehead. But that's not me.

Much love!

 

[charity]

Hebrews 10:24-25 KJV
24) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25) Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is;
but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Much love!

Hello @marks,

I don't attend a place of worship, and so for me this verse has had to be carefully considered. I would love to be part of a Christian fellowship, for it must be wonderful to be one of others of like mind: who draw together with one purpose - to worship and serve God within their community.

* The usual interpretation of this passage associates it with attendance at a Christian place of worship. Yet, the word 'assembling' (episunagoge), and it's cognate (episunago), are never used of an 'assembling' in the sense of attending service at church. Episunagois used in Matthew 23:37 and it's parallel passage for the Lord's desire to gather the children of Jerusalem to Himself as a hen does her chickens. it is used in Matthew 24:31 and it's parallel passages of the gathering together of the elect by the angels. It is used in Mark 1:33 and Luke 12:1, for the crowd who gathered for healing or interest. The only other place where episunagoge occurs is 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 'The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto Him'. The Apostle by the use of the word 'forsaking' evidently glances back to such passages as 2 Chronicles 24:18, where the 'forsaking' of the house of the Lord meant apostasy, and was visited with wrath, and also to Nehemiah 10:39 and 13:11, where adherence to the house of God indicated loyalty, The 'gathering together of ourselves' has value only as it foreshadows the hope of 'our gathering together unto Him'.

* At the present time faithfulness to truth and to the blessed hope that we hold, sometimes cuts us off from Christian assemblies. and this passage must never be used to justify compromise. The present dispensation knows no 'place of worship' except where Christ 'sitteth' at the right hand of God, for God dwelleth not in temples made with hands. Churches and chapels are conveniences, but not essentials.

* The added words, 'so much the more, as ye see the day approaching', confirms the thought that the hope and it's gathering together is in view.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[marks]

Without attempting to equate our mind precisely as God thinks, I would suggest that scripture does support the idea of having the mind of Christ... Recreated in the image of God, which is why we are horrified regarding abortion, tyranny, persecution, and other equally appalling atrocities such as genocide. These things we rightly regard as evil in every sense of the word. Yet when we believe God does it's justice?

God destroyed entire civilizations. The Bible is replete with genocide. Do you declare God wrong? Or are His ways above our ways?

Yes, our minds are being renewed to reflect His mind, even so, He is infinitely beyond us. Or so it seems to me. As high as the heavens above the earth . . .

Much love!

 

[marks]

You thinking on this matter isn’t clear

OK. Thank you for pointing that out to me.

Maybe to clarify . . . my OP complaint was against those who make disparaging comments against large groups of people of whom they have no personal knowledge.

Such complaints are false on their face, being overgeneralizations. Such comments are presumptuous, given comment on things the speaker is ignorant about. Being false and presumptuous, they are therefore fleshy and unedifying. Being fleshy, they serve the speaker.

So the one who says such things is, as I see it, making disparaging comments about others so serve some personal need, generally speaking, I think, an emotional disorder.

In the simplest terms, people tend to put others down to make themself feel better about themselves.

Someone who feels the need to be superior to others will include that in their words, making sure everyone knows how much better they are, in whatever sense they need to address there inner emotional lack.

Anyway, in my research, and interactions with people, this is what I see, what I think, for what it's worth.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Unless we're defending eternal security.

I typoed, maybe it made a difference. I'm editting my post.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Unless we're defending eternal security.

I'm talking about the meanings of the words. How will we advance to doctrine until we can know what the words mean?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Hello @marks,

I don't attend a place of worship, and so for me this verse has had to be carefully considered. I would love to be part of a Christian fellowship, for it must be wonderful to be one of others of like mind: who draw together with one purpose - to worship and serve God within their community.

The usual interpretation of this passage associates it with attendance at a Christian place of worship. Yet, the word 'assembling' (episunagoge), and it's cognate (episunago), are never used of an 'assembling' in the sense of attending service at church. Episunagois used in Matthew 23:37 and it's parallel passage for the Lord's desire to gather the children of Jerusalem to Himself as a hen does her chickens. it is used in Matthew 24:31 and it's parallel passages of the gathering together of the elect by the angels. It is used in Mark 1:33 and Luke 12:1, for the crowd who gathered for healing or interest. The only other place where episunagoge occurs is 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 'The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto Him'. The Apostle by the use of the word 'forsaking' evidently glances back to such passages as 2 Chronicles 24:18, where the 'forsaking' of the house of the Lord meant apostasy, and was visited with wrath, and also to Nehemiah 10:39 and 13:11, where adherence to the house of God indicated loyalty, The 'gathering together of ourselves' has value only as it foreshadows the hope of 'our gathering together unto Him'. At the present time faithfulness to truth and to the blessed hope sometimes cuts us off from Christian assemblies. and this passage must never be used to justify compromise. The present dispensation knows no 'place of worship' except where Christ 'sitteth' at the right hand of God, for God dwelleth not in temples made with hands. Churches and chapels are conveniences, not essentials.

The added words, 'so much the more, as ye see the day approaching', confirms the thought that the hope and it's gathering together is in view.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I don't see any particular importance in where we meet. I like the potlucks myself! But I think the gathering together is important. There is a purpose to it, and it's to make our Christian lives better.

At what point do we divide from others? I guess that's something we each have to answer for ourselves.

Much love!