The Offense of the Cross

[Episkopos]

I posted this elsewhere but I thought it needed it's own thread (as you can tell by this! :) )

"And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me." Matt. 11:6

People are not offended by the cross if it's seen for Jesus only and not for ourselves. In any group of believers there are at least half that are offended by the idea that they might not belong to Christ. People who are offended at this still live in their own strength and want to be saved in THAT state.

The offense is the cost of belonging to Christ. People will argue and show their true colours by their carnal reaction to the truth.

Being OF Christ is very difficult...hence it's lack of popularity. Jesus said we should count the cost.

In the above verse it says..."whosoever shall not be offended IN Me". How can we be offended if we are in Him?

We can be in Him corporately as part of His Body without abiding in Him. We can follow Jesus from a safe distance without belonging to Him. And this idea is very offensive to those who have not experienced the cross in their lives.

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." Gal. 5:24

Those that belong to Him no longer live from themselves. They have been crucified with Christ.

And this is hard to take. We want our lives to be easy not hard. We want a free salvation into glory. We want, we want, we want.

Can we handle the truth?

 

[Episkopos]

Are most believers OWNED by Christ? No, God has allowed for our weakness and gives us a choice. Jesus told us how difficult it is to enter into the narrow way and walk in it. Once we count the cost we can petition God for entrance INTO Him. Have we tasted the goodness of the Lord? Good. Now we go to Him to receive the full measure of grace. But we must go through the cross to get the power of His resurrection life. The Kingdom walk costs us everything.

"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Gal. 6:14

Because of the prevalence of the "low calling in Christ" that most people hear as the gospel in these perilous times...sound doctrine can no longer be endured by most believers. Who wants to admit that they have fallen for a ploy? pride...religious pride will react strongly against anything that brings an eternal light to the issue. People will react against the truth when they have been led to believe they can have their lives AND eternal glory added in.

Do we simply add Jesus to our present lives? Or do we leave all things behind to follow Christ?

What is the cost of entering INTO Christ? Everything.

 

[JohnPaul]

I posted this elsewhere but I thought it needed it's own thread (as you can tell by this! :) )

"And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me." Matt. 11:6

People are not offended by the cross if it's seen for Jesus only and not for ourselves. In any group of believers there are at least half that are offended by the idea that they might not belong to Christ. People who are offended at this still live in their own strength and want to be saved in THAT state.

The offense is the cost of belonging to Christ. People will argue and show their true colours by their carnal reaction to the truth.

Being OF Christ is very difficult...hence it's lack of popularity. Jesus said we should count the cost.

In the above verse it says..."whosoever shall not be offended IN Me". How can we be offended if we are in Him?

We can be in Him corporately as part of His Body without abiding in Him. We can follow Jesus from a safe distance without belonging to Him. And this idea is very offensive to those who have not experienced the cross in their lives.

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." Gal. 5:24

Those that belong to Him no longer live from themselves. They have been crucified with Christ.

And this is hard to take. We want our lives to be easy not hard. We want a free salvation into glory. We want, we want, we want.

Can we handle the truth?

Isn't the cross a symbol of the letter t as in Tammuz, and it's where it originated?. as did most of the traditions in the RCC, such as Lent (the forty days weeping for tammuz, the child God and it's mother Semiramis, who is actually Nimrod, hence the Mother and child God, as in the early days of Christianity the t was not used as a symbol of the cross by any Christian, this is something that was incorporated by the pagan turned Christian emperor Constantine later on?

 

[Nancy]

I posted this elsewhere but I thought it needed it's own thread (as you can tell by this! :) )

"And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me." Matt. 11:6

People are not offended by the cross if it's seen for Jesus only and not for ourselves. In any group of believers there are at least half that are offended by the idea that they might not belong to Christ. People who are offended at this still live in their own strength and want to be saved in THAT state.

The offense is the cost of belonging to Christ. People will argue and show their true colours by their carnal reaction to the truth.

Being OF Christ is very difficult...hence it's lack of popularity. Jesus said we should count the cost.

In the above verse it says..."whosoever shall not be offended IN Me". How can we be offended if we are in Him?

We can be in Him corporately as part of His Body without abiding in Him. We can follow Jesus from a safe distance without belonging to Him. And this idea is very offensive to those who have not experienced the cross in their lives.

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." Gal. 5:24

Those that belong to Him no longer live from themselves. They have been crucified with Christ.

And this is hard to take. We want our lives to be easy not hard. We want a free salvation into glory. We want, we want, we want.

Can we handle the truth?

Good post Epi
Yeah, the offence...cost's all we have.

Can we indeed handle the truth, lol!

 

[Fuddy]

Maybe the apparent duality of the gospel message as presented in the bible is part of the problem - Jesus seems to say, "come to me, my yoke is easy, my burden is light, and you will find rest for your souls... only believe and you will be saved, my gift to you is free, without cost."

Then you have the other side, "the path that leads to the kingdom of God is narrow, and difficult, and few ever find it."

Any wonder it's confusing?

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Maybe the apparent duality of the gospel message as presented in the bible is part of the problem - Jesus seems to say, "come to me, my yoke is easy, my burden is light, and you will find rest for your souls... only believe and you will be saved, my gift to you is free, without cost."

Then you have the other side, "the path that leads to the kingdom of God is narrow, and difficult, and few ever find it."

Any wonder it's confusing?

Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome to the Board. God Is "not the author
of Confusion," and Does Have Bible Answers, Correct?

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

Bible Answer To Confusing church Bewilderment!

GRACE And Peace...

 

[Episkopos]

Maybe the apparent duality of the gospel message as presented in the bible is part of the problem - Jesus seems to say, "come to me, my yoke is easy, my burden is light, and you will find rest for your souls... only believe and you will be saved, my gift to you is free, without cost."

Then you have the other side, "the path that leads to the kingdom of God is narrow, and difficult, and few ever find it."

Any wonder it's confusing?

The easy walk is hard to get into...and the hard walk is easy to get into (actually this is the default condition). We are dealing with 2 dimensions of reality. There is the eternal reality of the Kingdom of Heaven AND the temporal simulation of reality that we are in to test us and equip us to enter into eternal life.

Breaking free of this temporal world and the bondage of the flesh requires a disconnect (through the power of the cross).

Once we are walking in the eternal reality, things become easy as we are not walking in our own strength anymore.

 

[Fuddy]

OK, so you're saying salvation and subsequent sanctification, is truly like a birth, in that we pass through a tight and difficult stricture (our "time of testing?), and if we succeed in that passage, we emerge into an openness where a new freedom is gradually realized - and our new function, by His power, is easy and natural.

That's a new way of seeing this for me, hmmm...

I kinda think I inherently know this, somehow, but how to get to that place eludes me. Like there's some kind of barrier in the way, don't mean to sound goofy about it but that's how it strikes me.

I do believe, I KNOW, that God responds positively to an honest and sincere prayer, but I question my honesty. I know He is trustworthy, but I know, being human, I'm inherently not. It's a catch-22.

I guess I'm ultimately offended by myself, and what do you do about that??

Sorry if I'm sliding off topic. Thank you for your insights.

 

[Episkopos]

OK, so you're saying salvation and subsequent sanctification, is truly like a birth, in that we pass through a tight and difficult stricture (our "time of testing?), and if we succeed in that passage, we emerge into an openness where a new freedom is gradually realized - and our new function, by His power, is easy and natural.

That's a new way of seeing this for me, hmmm...

I kinda think I inherently know this, somehow, but how to get to that place eludes me. Like there's some kind of barrier in the way, don't mean to sound goofy about it but that's how it strikes me.

I do believe, I KNOW, that God responds positively to an honest and sincere prayer, but I question my honesty. I know He is trustworthy, but I know, being human, I'm inherently not. It's a catch-22.

I guess I'm ultimately offended by myself, and what do you do about that??

Sorry if I'm sliding off topic. Thank you for your insights.

These are good thought Fuddy. :) I think that to be righteous before God we have to see the scale of our own inadequacy....and yet... remain open to the endless possibilities that are in Christ. We can't stop others from experiencing more than us.

God gives grace to the humble...and the meek inherit the earth.

You are right about the catch-22. The only way out of our predicament is by faith in God's power and character.

The wise continue in humility and the fear of the Lord. God is merciful and He will not give us beyond what we can handle. That is both in the negative sense AND the positive sense. With more grace comes more responsibility. To whom much is given, more is required. We need to get ready and count the cost of what is means to leave this world, and its attractions, behind.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Maybe the apparent duality of the gospel message as presented in the bible is part of the problem - Jesus seems to say, "come to me, my yoke is easy, my burden is light, and you will find rest for your souls... only believe and you will be saved, my gift to you is free, without cost."

Then you have the other side, "the path that leads to the kingdom of God is narrow, and difficult, and few ever find it."

Any wonder it's confusing?

And yet you see BOTH! It’s so rare that a man sees both that it always surprises me when one does.

 

[marks]

OK, so you're saying salvation and subsequent sanctification, is truly like a birth, in that we pass through a tight and difficult stricture (our "time of testing?), and if we succeed in that passage, we emerge into an openness where a new freedom is gradually realized - and our new function, by His power, is easy and natural.

That's a new way of seeing this for me, hmmm...

I kinda think I inherently know this, somehow, but how to get to that place eludes me. Like there's some kind of barrier in the way, don't mean to sound goofy about it but that's how it strikes me.

I do believe, I KNOW, that God responds positively to an honest and sincere prayer, but I question my honesty. I know He is trustworthy, but I know, being human, I'm inherently not. It's a catch-22.

I guess I'm ultimately offended by myself, and what do you do about that??

Sorry if I'm sliding off topic. Thank you for your insights.

The answer to this connundrum it to rest completely in your reconciliation to God found in Jesus Christ. That is, by Christ alone we have been fully reconciled to God, and not in ourselves. So no matter what we do, we do not affect our reconciliation, and Jesus "ever lives to make intercession for us".

This all means that we always have access by faith in Jesus into His grace in which we stand.

To me, "barrier" is very descriptive. The fleshy mind doesn't trust God, and this is a signal to when we are thinking in the fleshy mind. The spiritual mind does trust God, and when we choose that total trust, our hearts are open to God, His Spirit fills us with the power of a new life. But when we start to question whether we are good enough, or if we've disqualified ourselves, this means we are no longer trusting in His reconciliation. And we've left faith, and returned to fleshiness.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

OK, so you're saying salvation and subsequent sanctification, is truly like a birth, in that we pass through a tight and difficult stricture (our "time of testing?), and if we succeed in that passage, we emerge into an openness where a new freedom is gradually realized - and our new function, by His power, is easy and natural.

That's a new way of seeing this for me, hmmm...

I kinda think I inherently know this, somehow, but how to get to that place eludes me. Like there's some kind of barrier in the way, don't mean to sound goofy about it but that's how it strikes me.

I do believe, I KNOW, that God responds positively to an honest and sincere prayer, but I question my honesty. I know He is trustworthy, but I know, being human, I'm inherently not. It's a catch-22.

I guess I'm ultimately offended by myself, and what do you do about that??

Sorry if I'm sliding off topic. Thank you for your insights.

I deeply, deeply understand and relate to you. I am quite drawn to you.

 

[LearningToLetGo]

I guess I'm ultimately offended by myself, and what do you do about that??

There is much wisdom in the above statement.

The problem, as I see it, is that the flesh thinks that its own death is the end so it wants to enjoy as much of living as it can before being snuffed out. That's where the illusion comes in, because the death of the flesh is only the beginning of life. It's a kind of birth. The easy path, which is also narrow, requires us to stop viewing life/death as opposites but realize there is just life, period. If/when we do that, we realize that God is right next to us, has always been with us. We're never alone and all this illusion of separateness and distinctness begins to fall away, but that realization scares the fleshy part of us (the incarnate egoic self) and we begin to backslide. This push/pull dynamic is natural but with time it gets easier.

 

[marks]

There is much wisdom in the above statement.

The problem, as I see it, is that the flesh thinks that its own death is the end so it wants to enjoy as much of living as it can before being snuffed out. That's where the illusion comes in, because the death of the flesh is only the beginning of life. It's a kind of birth. The easy path, which is also narrow, requires us to stop viewing life/death as opposites but realize there is just life, period. If/when we do that, we realize that God is right next to us, has always been with us. We're never alone and all this illusion of separateness and distinctness begins to fall away, but that realization scares the fleshy part of us (the incarnate egoic self) and we begin to backslide. This push/pull dynamic is natural but with time it gets easier.

Well stated!

Much love!

 

[farouk]

Maybe the apparent duality of the gospel message as presented in the bible is part of the problem - Jesus seems to say, "come to me, my yoke is easy, my burden is light, and you will find rest for your souls... only believe and you will be saved, my gift to you is free, without cost."

Then you have the other side, "the path that leads to the kingdom of God is narrow, and difficult, and few ever find it."

Any wonder it's confusing?

Hi @Fuddy The blessing is in resting in Him and in His finished work at the Cross (John 19.30), and not in works and self effort (Ephesians 2.8-9).

 

[Fuddy]

I gotta say, if sanctification is happening within me, it (at least in my case) is on one grand and intricately slow scale - probably due to coming to Christ at the age of 41 after a very sinful lifestyle up to that point, and having been raised in a particularly unbelieving family, followed by working with unbelieving, even openly mocking co-workers.

It seems so Alien a concept (faith in God, and in this message of Hope), SO Alien that I'm always shifting back into doubt about the veracity of it.

So it's very encouraging to hear echoes of the same general thing happening to others on this journey, and I thank you all for your replies... Gives me much to think about.

I just don't know why, after 27 years, it still seems so unreal much of the time, unless, as I said, I'm unusually thick-headed because of my past, or I'm being so dishonest with myself that I'm blind to my own disingenuousness, and I pray that's not the case, as that would be horrible.

How do you trust God, if you can't trust yourself to truly trust Him???

 

[Fuddy]

I know I'll fall back tonight on the ridiculously simple prayer I've been tending to go to lately, and ask God to just please fix whatever it is that's wrong in me, to His satisfaction. And yepper, Episkopos, that's a scary prayer, but like you pointed out, it ain't about this here-and-gone initial lifespan.

It's about all eternity that awaits beyond it. Just wish it seemed more real.

 

[quietthinker]

The Offense of the Cross
It is an offence because it sets in motion a principle which men resist. We find it near irresistible to give up the right for revenge; in fact men define justice by some sort of payback for infractions.

God's definition of justice is liberation from oppression......the oppression of sin and death.

The Cross highlights God's justice.....it says, I will not resist your assault......I will feel kindly towards you even if you kill me. This is totally foreign to the human heart.

God calls his children into his space....a space where payback as men understand it is not on the horizon.....a space where generosity overflows beyond measure.......a space which prays for oppressors.

Strength is defined anew. Strength is defined by drawing oppressors (sinners) to himself for the purpose of rescue from their own self destruction and the destruction of others........and who can bear that?

 

[Fuddy]

farouk - that's difficult for me. It seems like just the kind of thing my "itching ears" would want to hear, a gift too wildly generous to bear thinking could possibly apply to a spiritual and moral dullard like me, but there's no denying, according to scripture, that this "Good News" is free, without cost, in some capacity.

It seems it's something that must simply be accepted, period, just because that's the way God has arranged it to be. It's a perceptual stumbling block for me, for some reason. I need to, somehow, learn to use my spirit brain instead of the gray matter in my head, it 's like a 1980's model PC trying to interpret the info it's receiving from a state of the art current-model supercomputer - an absurdly impossible task. Wrong tool for the job.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

that's difficult for me.

Precious friend, ever been on an airplane, or ridden with someone else driving a
bus or a car. The simple faith when doing so is that you trusted someone else to
"get you to your destination," Correct? Simple As That With God, Too!
Please "see" below:

GRACE And Peace...